Should Pagans Celebrate St. Patricks day?

[Danustouch]

ST. PATRICK'S DAY


A Commentary by MAIMU ALBER

A few weeks ago, I was chit-chatting with some pagan friends when the subject of St. Patrick’s Day came up. This drew laughter and comments about getting drunk on green beer. Someone made a joke about getting drunk enough on St. Patrick’s Day to see snakes. While I listened, I recalled a recent comment I had read on a neo-pagan website, where in reference to March 17, the author had written "Happy St. Patrick's Day!! Even though he brought Christianity to Ireland its a great day to go and drink good Irish ale." Another pagan website, after a discussion of the history of St. Patrick’s day, concluded with "and considering the past and present troubles of our beloved [Ire]land, this is a lovely, positive affirmation of the Irish people."

I wonder--am I the only one who finds the idea of neo-pagans celebrating St. Patrick’s Day to be troubling?

Since childhood, I have been told that St. Patrick is known the world over for having driven the snakes from Ireland. Different versions tell of his using a wooden staff to drive the serpents into the sea, banishing them forever from Ireland. One legend says that one old serpent resisted, but St. Patrick made a box and invited the reptile to enter. When it did, St. Patrick slammed the lid and cast the box into the sea. While it is apparently true that there are no real snakes in Ireland, this seems to be due to environmental reasons and not St. Patrick’s efforts. In the legend, the snakes serve as symbols of Goddess and other pre-Christian religions. These religions were shunned, and along with the box, (like a casket, holding the dead; or like Pandora’s Box, holding the perceived evils of the world) were driven off and meant to remain lost at the bottom of the sea forever.

Yet, there is more to the story of St. Patrick than snakes. One account tells of how St. Patrick climbed up Slane Hill in Meath to arbitrarily light the initial balefire at Beltane. This was a sacred rite reserved for pagan priests. (As other pagans on distant hills would see the initial fire, they’d start their own fires, and eventually balefires would light up all of Eire.) This defiant act by St. Patrick served to usurp sacred rites and clearly demonstrates his blatant attempt to take over pagan practices. The metaphorical and symbolic reference to Christianity’s spread in Ireland cannot be overlooked. Another account tells of St. Patrick’s anti-feminist follower, Columba, destroying the Brehon Laws, which, until that time, had provided Celtic women equal rights with their men. Thus, the Christian intolerance embodied by St. Patrick spread throughout the country, and in many ways continues to haunt Ireland today.

It is my understanding that in Ireland, St. Patrick’s Day is not celebrated as it is in America. There, it is a Christian holiday, a holy day, where St. Patrick, along with his efforts to convert the island to Christianity, are revered and honored. Every year pilgrims climb to the top of Croagh Patrick, to pay homage to Saint Patrick's Christian mission in Ireland. It was here that Patrick allegedly rang a bell as Ireland's snakes fled. Contrary to popular belief, St. Patrick’s Day parades did not begin in Ireland; the first one was in America in 1737, in Boston. Parades are now an American mainstay in celebrations honoring the Irish.

I must confess at this point that I am not Irish. My family is not Irish and as far as I know, not a drop of Celtic blood runs in my veins. I do not purport to be knowledgeable about Irish history, customs or traditions, and the only real research I’ve done about the Irish has consisted of immigration patterns and social customs here in Cleveland at the turn of the century for a class paper. The rest I have picked up along the way. I am not qualified to intellectualize about Irish history and customs, and so if there are flaws in my thinking, I remain open to correction by those more knowledgeable than I.

However, it isn’t the history of St. Patrick’s Day per se which troubles me. What troubles me is neo-paganism’s response to it. I can understand how many Christian holidays have pagan roots, and how we celebrate holidays such as Halloween/Samhain, Christmas/Yule, Easter/Ostara and others as both American folk traditions and pagan holidays. These holidays may have been taken hostage by Christians, but the roots of pagan tradition are still within them and these are what we honor.

Can anyone tell me what traditional pagan holiday is at the root of St. Patrick’s Day? What is it that we neo-pagans celebrate when we go out and drink up the green beer with others? Do we really just honor the Irish people, or do we join Christians in celebrating the eradication of native religions practiced in Ireland prior to St. Patrick’s time? A great number of Ireland's pre-Christian texts and other artifacts were destroyed as a result of St. Patrick's efforts--items which would have provided a wealth of information about Ireland's ancient cultures had they survived to the present. Celtic pagans were known to be seafaring travelers and traders, and very sophisticated for their era—more so than many other cultures. What could we have learned from them had such destruction not taken place?

For neo-pagans to celebrate such a terrible time feels wrong to me, in the same way that celebrating the burning times feels morally wrong. As a Jewish friend put it, "isn’t celebration of St. Patrick’s Day by the pagans much like the Jews celebrating Kristalnacht?" It sounds morbid, but if the facts behind the legends and accounts are true, isn’t that what we pagans do when we celebrate St. Patrick’s Day? Someone once said, "If you really want to celebrate St. Patrick's Day in the spirit of his greatest accomplishment, go to a bookstore that carries rare and out of print books, buy the oldest one you can find, take it home, and burn it."

It is my contention that if we neo-pagans must celebrate what has become an American folk tradition with green beer, corned beef and cabbage, and by wearing shamrocks that say, "Kiss Me, I’m Irish," (ironic, considering the repression of women by the Church of Ireland), we should at least wear black armbands in recognition of the loss that many of our pre-Christian ancestors suffered at the hands of St. Patrick and his followers. We need to recognize what we have lost as a result. It seems to me that to ignore the darkness that lurks beneath the celebration of St. Patrick’s Day is to ignore reality of pagan history and instead show support for its demise. As a neo-pagan trying to revive my own Finno-Ugric roots and my ancestors’ old traditions, I believe it is wrong to celebrate the destruction of someone else’s.

This year, as in the past few years, I won’t be participating in any St. Patrick’s Day festivities on March 17. Perhaps I’ll go to the library and dig up the oldest book on Celtic pagan history I can find, and instead of burning it, I’ll read it. I may also do a ritual of remembrance and mourning, not only for the heritage of many of my pagan brothers and sisters, but for the Christian Irish too. As another friend recently commented, "Maybe the snakes need to come back to Ireland…maybe they’d stop the followers of the Prince of Peace from shedding all that Irish blood in his name!" I believe he's right--but that’s a whole ‘nuther essay.

[Arduinna]

I personally don't celebrate St patty's day. I can't think of a single reason for me too. I personally feel it is not just about being Irish, but of celebrating Patricks bringing of Christianity. Yuck. Not for me. I wonder what the world would have been like without St Patrick, Constantine, and the Crusades just to name a few.

[Lilu]

I don't celebrate it personally, even though half my family is Irish, it was never something that was done in our family. Now days, I don't really see anything wrong with people who do want to celebrate, but it's not really my style.

Lilu

[ladyrowan]

Hmm, y'know something, reading that was the first time i have ever thought about St Patricks Day having anything to do with religion at all! Same as St George, St Andrew & St David's Days.

I don't know how the Irish in Ireland celebrate, but i wouldn't mind betting that most of them celebrate in the pub with a Guiness, just like the Irish in England do!

St Andrews Day - the Scots go to the pub and get pissed.
St Davids Day - the Welsh go to the pub and get pissed and sing a lot while wearing a daffodil.
St George's Day - the English, if we remember it at all, wonder why we don't celebrate our Saint like the others do. Those that do remember, hang a flag up and get called racist! (yes, that does really happen)


BB

[Myst]

Like ladyrowan, I've never associated it with religion. Honestly I had no idea who ol' St. Patty was 'till you mentioned it. Then again I never celebrated it even when I was Christian :)

[Dria El]

Well, I'm part Irish and in my family we always celebrated it. Not too big of a deal, just corned beef and cabbage and family. And we never associated it with religion at all. <shrugs> Ever since I came across that info years ago I've questioned whether or not I should continue. I haven't made any permanent decisions but I still continue our families tradition and (so far) consider it alot like what alot of Americans have done with Christmas - a time for family togetherness, etc.

Things in the future may change but for now it's a non-religious fun time for us to come together and celebrate our heritage.

Take it how you will...

[MammaStar]

I'm 1/2 Irish, and for as long as I can remember my family has celebrated St. Patty's Day. My Mom even celebrates still, and she's 100% Italian! I've never EVER (okay, only when it fell on a SUNDAY) associated it with religion. It was a day for my family to get together, drink lots of green beverages and watch the 2nd biggest St. Pat's parade in New York State (Pearl River Parade).

Since I've met my boyfriend, St. Pat's has become a bigger celebration, because he & his bro, and their friends celebrate every year, by taking the day off work and heading down to NYC for the parade, then we head home and have a lovely dinner of corned beef (i skip the cabbage :ugh: ). Again, never had it associated with religion and his bro & fiance are WAYYYYYYYYY Christian.

So, after this long post (it was a long 8 hr. ride home). Yes, I celebrate to have fun and celebrate my Irish heritage. :loveduv: :boing:

[Tigerwallah]

:boing: :elf: :boing: :elf: :boing:

And I happen to like snakes and homosexuals - not to mention I had a horrible experience a few years ago when I tried to get to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on St. Patty's day. Let's just say that I made it back to Grand Central without ever having to move my feet. :nyah:

[Lavender]

Interesting thought, Danustouch. Perhaps we, as neo-pagans, should wear a green ribbon that day. We still can lift a glass to the memory of our pagan ancestors. Isn't it an Irish tradition to remember the passing of loved ones in a wake?

[Niamh]

The Irish (at least in my family) always lift a glass at wakes! I'm sure there's many of us that wouldn't object to honoring those past on St. Patrick's Day!

My family has always celebrated St. Patrick's Day the way the Irish celebrate it... by going to church and then having a dinner at home. And not corned beef. That's an Irish-American peasant dish from the mid 1800's. We would eat beef!

I haven't celebrated St. Patrick's Day since I was in high school and had "lost my faith" as the family puts it. It was always religious in my family, so it made sense to not celebrate.

When people ask why I'm not wearing green or celebrating being Irish, I tell them that I'm Irish the other 364 days of the year, I doh't need a special day to remind myself and others!

[Illuminatus]

Of COURSE I celebrate St. Patrick's day. A holiday devoted to getting sloshed? Sign me up! Pity the Irish have to polarize their entire culture over religious matters, many of them are missing out on a great holiday.

- Ill

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
To me,it's just about hangin' at a big party.One day set aside just for drinking beer,I have fun anyway.But,Goddess knows,this boy loves his beer!Usually all the local bands play,which is fun too.I'm not really thinking about patrick,though.Just trying to have some fun.
But,even though I know it's just food coloring,I won't drink the green beer!Yuk!
Peace and Love
BrightStar

[Theres]

MM all. i'm new here, and so i thought i'd introduce myself in the midst of controversy.
despite my screen name, i do NOT celebrate characters such as 'Saint' Patrick or Columbus. too much misery and oppression associated with both names. now i'm one of the least PC people you'll ever meet, but to me this is akin to celebrating Hitler Day.
anyway, nice to be here, and i look forward to playing with you all.
MP-MMA

[Dria El]

Welcome to Mystic Wicks Greenman! :)

[Demeter]

I refuse to celebrate a "holiday" devoted to the concepts of religious intolerance and drunken irresponsibility.

[metaphys]

still waiting for a reply to my question

[metaphys]

anyone there ????

[Danustouch]

we replied. Check the thread you posted, silly :) ;) .

[metaphys]

repeat

[Demeter]

Originally posted by metaphys
repeat

Metaphys, first go up to the top of this screen and click on The History. That will give you a list of all topics in this section. Then click on the thread you started called "question." There are a couple of answers for you there.

[kittiepoetrygod]

I don't beileve in St. Patrick.... I think hes like Brighit, only much much more corrupted ... if thats the right word. In a sense, the icon of him did drive the snake -- The Goddess -- out of Ireland ... his holiday is associated with Christianity, and the Ostara celebrations would merge with the St. Patrick ones ... i would assume was the intent of him.

[Danustouch]

Actually Kittie, St. Patrick was a real Historical Figure. His reported miracles may have been corrupted by time, but, he as a person, as a priest, is a true historical figure.

[TheWordWitch]

You know, it was my understanding from documentaries on Discovery and History channel, that St. Patrick was actually kidnapped by the Celts in Ireland - that he was actually a Roman (Italian) Priest. He returned voluntarily because he fell in love with the land, the people, the whole experience of Ireland.

I also remember hearing or reading, that he was the only Priest from the Vatican to attempt a blending of Catholic and Pagan beliefs, hence the lighting of the balefires at Beltane.

I do recall specifically that the Catholic church did many things, made many decisions that negatively influenced the Pagans of Ireland, all in Patrick's name, without his consent, and often times up to 300 years after his death. The actions of Columba (revoking the Brehon Laws) is a perfect example of negatively impacting the lives of Native Irish all in the name of St Patrick.

I don't celebrate St Patrick's day because my family taught me that St Patrick hurt the snakes of Ireland. Little did I know what Grampa and Gran REALLY meant!! ;)

[Danustouch]

Thank you very much for that informative post! very interesting! yes, I did know he was not originally Irish. He was first brought over as a slave. Then he returned to Ireland, because he fell in love with the people.

[SeekerSandy]

As one who is 72% Irish, my two bits worth are this:

Once upon a time I was a good little xian. Then I grew up. During that maturation process I learned the Patrick was not his name and he was not Irish, but a vatican sales agent, sent to destroy the pagan ways at any cost. There never were any snakes in Ireland, that particular myth is indeed a metaphore for the destruction (read: ruin and murder) of decent people who refused his efforts at prosthletizasion.
Xianity was not brought about by "blending" of the beliefs of the church of rome and the path of peace, it was sold by force and usurption of ancient rituals and sabbats.

In short, I am a Irishman sufficiently sober to recognize and refuse to honor the fraud and shame that the myth of St. paddy stands for.
Besides, I love green but not in my beer or my mead!
:eek:

[Earthcup]

Ok, I'm no expert here.. (where's éric?)

The Druids remained well established in Ireland long after Patrick. Patrick was enamored with Ireland and it's people and wished to lift them up out of the dark ages. He brought Christianity, true but he wasn't a bad guy IMHO. Eric, if you're lurking maybe you could explain this better?

Personally, I celebrate St. Patrick's Day because it's the one day of the year dedicated to celebrating everything Irish. It's been said that the Jews and Irish don't have a nationality, they have a psychosis. :D So I celebrate everything Irish on March 17th, including a remarkable man named Patrick.

If that's considered anti-Pagan, fine. *shrug* It's not going to stop me from wearin the green.

[Earthcup]

oh and I didn't vote because there wasn't an "other" button!

[Chibi-Fallon]

Maybe it's just me, but who goes "Yea! St.Pat killed all the Pagans and that's why this day is still around!". It's just a day for people to drink to much and talk in bad accents. It doesn't really mean anything anymore. I like green beer (not that I would drink, being underage and all ;) ) I have a friend who can do a pretty mean Irish accent.
I could care less about St. Pat. I don't know what he did, or who he was, nor do I want to, nor do I care. It's just a excuse for people to get drunk and have fun now. You're bringing to much history into it. Dude, just let us drink and have fun. Can we just make a "Drink and Have Fun" Day so no one can b*tch? Everyone's got a problem with everything. We're all evil and we're all gonna die! Nothing is right or PC so we're all gonna be smoted! Bah! Everyone happy now? I'm about 50%-60% Irish myself, just as F.Y.I.

[kblackthorne]

When I was a little girl, I went to Catholic School.

<I>French</i> Catholic School.

I remember one year another little girl wore green ribbons in her hair on March 17.

The principal was called into the room, and removed the ribbons herself, lecturing the girl on her good French heritage. (Those who actually had an Irish relative within the past two generations were permitted small green hair-ribbons or other small, green adornments.) As good Frenchmen, if we wished to show pride on St. Patrick's Day, we were to wear <I>red</i>. That way we weren't pretending to be something we weren't, as if we were ashamed of being French.

--------------

So I've never really seen much to celebrate.

~shrugs~

And I rarely wear green, even though it turns out my father was half-Irish.

[Danustouch]

Chibhi, the thing is, that St. Patricks day is celebrated in other countries, not just the USA. Certainly, in the U.S, St Patricks day has come to be a celebration of Heritage of Irish Americans, but in Ireland, it IS a religious holiday. I don't know, I guess that part of the argument is that many Pagans do not Celebrate Easter, or Christmas, or any one of a million OTHER Christian Holidays and Feast Days, so why do they celebrate St. Patricks Day (yes, heritage, but..as others have brought up, Irish Pride is not limited to One day a year...).

[Earthcup]

I celebrate Christmas and Easter with my family. It's a large part of my country's culture and family heritage. I simply do not attach spiritual significance to it. My family celebrates Halloween but unlike me, they attach no spiritual significance to it.

I live in the US and I have a busy life. I'm always proud of my heritage but taking one day out of the year to take time to show it means a lot to me. Singing "Danny Boy" 24/7 365 days a year would get me put in the looney bin!:D

I guess I'm more familiar with the mythical Patrick than the historical one. "Tell me again of the Fianna...." ;)

*now feels compelled to sing Danny Boy for no reason whatsoever...:lol:*

[phoenixsong]

Well, I live in Ireland, and there isn't really much religious background to the festival, at least where I live. For everyone I know it's an excuse to go out, get totally drunk and wear a bit of green. Pretty much like in America.

Anyway, Ireland is probably the only country that never had a big 'witch hunt', though Irish healers and herbalists have always been around. (My grandad was a herbalist, and loads of people in our area went to him, in the 90s, and long before). The Fairy stories continued into the last century and the old Irish myths have never gone away. So obviously St. Patrick couldn't have destroyed all that heritage. In fact, it was the monasteries and the written records kept by them that preserved the old myths and legends.

[Theres]

i finally found this among my pile... er, i mean files...

"Mourn for those whom
Saint Patrick did kill,
And the faerie he drove
Back under the hill.
This day,
'Stead of drinking go,
Toll ye the bell,
And know that it's Pat
Who did end up in hell."

- James Staples

i think that time has proven that the 'snakes' were an allegory for 'Pagans', and that Patrick was a book-burner anfd probably responsible for more than a few innocent deaths.
now it is possible that 'St. Patrick' is a conglomeration of alot of different people, sort of like Arthur, or Jesus. but he is still representative of something i do not wish to celebrate.

and i believe that the tradition of lighting the 'balefire' at Beltane goes back ALOT further than Patrick.

[Éric]

Ack. How did I miss all this? Points:

Pádraig driving out the snakes is not a metaphor for suppression of native religion save in some Catholic and neopagan mythologies.

Contrary to a previous post, Pádraig did not drive "the Goddess" out of Ireland, nor would a holiday called Ostara ever enter the picture. Pre-Christian Irish religion was polytheistic, and never worshipped a singular goddess above anyone else. Many goddesses were worshipped, but in the real world, the most popular god seems to have been Lúgh (a male), as in the rest of the Celtic world. Ostara is a Germanic and neopagan holiday, alien to pre-Christian (and post-conversion, until the 20th century) Irish society.

The conversions in Ireland were not bloody. There were no evidenced forced conversions at all. Pagans and Christians actually got along rather well, as evidenced by the Brehon Laws (created by Christian priests and Druids, in concert) which endured until the 17th century (far longer than Draoí themselves). In the Brehon Laws, Druids are recognized as having rights under law, as are Christian priests, and their place in society is explained. There is no mention of any sort of stigma attached to religion...either religion. Read them in the original Gaelach, and the remaining portions (which haven't survived in original texts) in handed-down beul aithris Gaeilge.

[phoenixsong]

With regard to the 'driving the snakes out of Ireland' story, were snakes even linked to pagan worship in Ireland? After all, there never were snakes there, so it wouldn't make any sense that snakes represented Pagans or Goddess worshippers in that myth. There aren't even that many snakes in Britain. I thought snakes as a symbol of the Goddess applied more to warm countries which actually have snakes!

Also, St. Patrick was captured and kept as a slave by a pagan Irish farmer, so if he did have a grudge against them, perhaps it wouldn't be too surprising. I'd be mad.

[Éric]

There haven't been snakes in Ireland for a few thousand years, so it's doubtful they'd be related to any religious practice. Certainly not Gaelic religious practice, which is what's under discussion. And definitely not anything to do with worshipping "the Goddess"...that deity was completely unknown in Ireland at the time being referenced. :)

[kblackthorne]

a conglomeration of alot of different people, sort of like Arthur, or Jesus

You're aware, aren't you, that both these people are historic individuals whose identity has been shown?

[phoenixsong]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Pity the Irish have to polarize their entire culture over religious matters, many of them are missing out on a great holiday.


It's not the whole of Ireland that's caught up in the Protestant/Catholic thing, just Northern Ireland. Not even half the country. And the conflict there isn't truly over religion, that's just a facade for the Unionist/Republican thing.

[phoenixsong]

Originally posted by Greenman


i think that time has proven that the 'snakes' were an allegory for 'Pagans', and that Patrick was a book-burner anfd probably responsible for more than a few innocent deaths.


A book burner? At a time when there were practically no books, in Ireland at any rate? That must have been difficult.

[Earthcup]

Originally posted by phoenixsong


It's not the whole of Ireland that's caught up in the Protestant/Catholic thing, just Northern Ireland. Not even half the country. And the conflict there isn't truly over religion, that's just a facade for the Unionist/Republican thing.

An Irish friend of my Dad's said he often sat down with Catholics and Protestants at IRA meetings. Said religon had nothing to do with it. He should know I'd think, he came to America for "health reasons". I don't even want to know and I never intend to ask...... :D

[Earthcup]

Originally posted by phoenixsong


A book burner? At a time when there were practically no books, in Ireland at any rate? That must have been difficult.

The Druids didn't write sacred things down so it's a metaphor for the Wicker men they were burned in... :rotfl:

[Éric]

Well, feh...I really wasn't going to go into it, since it's rather off-topic, but the reality of the situation in Ulster is just as others have noted...religion has very little to do with it. That's a facile explanation for some people, perhaps, but if you look at Irish history, it simply doesn't hold. Many of the rebellions were led by Protestants, and they've been right up there with Catholics at some points in trying to preserve Gaelic culture. It's about politics, not religion. That's all. I don't find blaming Christianity for something it's not responsible for any more palatable than blaming anyone else.

[Earthcup]

The best blanket explanation for the Troubles I've heard so far is Macha's curse on the Ulstermen. But nine(?) generations have passed already, haven't they?

[Danustouch]

The history of the War in Ireland would make an excellent new thread...Anyone???

[Cinnamon Girl]

bump!

[SagaDraco]

I'll catch the Patty's Day parade in the city, then get wasted. Who says you have to be Irish to be intoxicated? It's just an excuse to kick back, watch a great parade, and have some fun. Although I never wear green, not being Irish and all.

[IsisErin]

I'll go to a traditional session with my friends who play the fiddle and get my dancing shoes on (and my green top hat probably which someone will get free when they buy four pints of Guinness).

Really, I don't think that many people know it's a 'holiday of religious intolerance' and I feel that meaning has fallen into disuse. No one's celebrating the death of anyone. The Irish expats just want to celebrate being Irish and we can pretend we're Irish for a night.

[Old Witch]

I'm half Irish........Scots Irish actually..........never was nearly Catholic...........and have been a witch for38?!!! years.....but I wear Gteen on St. Pattys Day and go to the Parade downtown and go to the celebration downtown........and love it!!!........."Everybody is Irish on ST. Patricks Day":elf: :elf: :elf: :boing: :boing: :boing:

[SeekerSandy]

Well, I am Irish-American, 75% anyway. My family has been here for 4 generations now. I grew up listening to the tales of starvation and enslavement by the brits. I listened to tales of how things once were.
It's a great thing to wear green and be Irish, even if only for a day. But to celebrate a "Saint" by his alias, who had travelled the land to convert people to his church of death by any means, fair or foul?
No, I am a Wiccan and proudly, yet quietly so. When asked about "St. Paddy," I respond simply: "I am truly Irish, I follow the old ways and old path, I do not celebrate a holiday for a prosthletying interloper who represented a 'prince' in a foreign kingdom."
We're having corned beef and cabbage in our house. On Sunday.
:eyebrow:

[WitchJezebel]

I'm not Irish, but some of my friends are, and since I grew up in NYC, everybody's Irish on that day. Truth is, back then I could care less what the meaning behind the day was, it was just an excuse to drink and be merry. I won't be doing that this year (it's a work day), but I can take it or leave it. Honestly, how many people (besides alot of us here) can tell you they even know the real meaning behind St. Paddy's day anyways?

[IsisErin]

You're right, WitchJezebel. I actually thought it was to do with snakes until I read this thread...

[Danustouch]

Hmmm..

Well..I've been thinking alot about this. I will be celebrating this year. Why? Because I MISS celebrating it. It's a tradition from my childhood. A Fun tradition, a pleasant memory. And memories like that are things which have made up the sum total of who I am. What are you, except for your memories, and experiences? Yes, I realize who St. Patty was, now that I am older. Now that I am Wiccan, I don't think he's some sort of near godlike person, who should be worshipped. However, this year, when i celebrate, I will be celebrating the memories of my youth. Celebrating my heritage. Not only my Blood...my Irishness..but my heritage in the sense of my family. My experiences, my ancestral traditions. Ancestry is becoming more and more important to my spiritual path, as I get older, and older. Reverence for my ancesters, curiosity about them, affinity with them. The more that I have delved into my roots, the more similarities I find between me, and them. Perhaps I've chosen a differen't religious path. (Although elements of both have entertwined), however, Just as I can feel OKAY about attending a wedding led by a Christian Minister, I can also feel comfortable, joining in a celebration of one of their saint days. Not because I agree with the things that their saint did, but because I realize that it is important TO THEM.

I don't celebrate Christmas, in a Christian way...and yet, I don't send my family a Yule Card. I don't celebrate Easter in a Christian way. And yet, I don't send them an Ostara Card. Likewise, I don't celebrate St. Patricks life...and yet..I won't send them a card saying.."It's a good day to be a Pagan". Know what I mean?

I love my heritage. I am developing a great love of my Ancestors. Through reading their stories, i've attatched a great deal of humanity to them. When I eat my soda bread this year..I won't be thinking of St Pat slaughtering a ton of Pagans. I'll be thinking of how my family could have been starved out, or bombed out during the wars, or during the famines. But that they survived. I'll be thinking how grateful I am, that despite the differences between my path and theirs, I am glad that they lived. Glad that my family lives. Glad that I was born, and that I can hear the stories retold time and time again.

I may not raise my glass to Ol' St. Pat. But I will raise my glass to the fact that the Irish have endured and flourished.

On second thought... ya know..the Celts respected the spirits of their enemies (thus they kept the heads of those they killed, etc). So..perhaps I WILL raise a Glass to St. Pat..and say to myself..."You were a worthy opponant to the Pagans. But..you didn't defeat us entirely. Hopefully, you are happy in the place that you are. And may you be laughing with our Goddess upon this day".

[Theres]

maybe we should petition Congress to add 'Custer Day' to the calendar too?

[Danustouch]

Well now....at least here in the states, St. Pats isn't a Federal Holiday...so I hardly think that petitioning congress for a Custer Day would be quite equal.

But..I knew this would come up, so already thought out my answer while out to my walk to the grocery store...

Why I wouldn't celebrate Custer Day...or anything of the sort: The many crimes against Native American Cultures, throughout history, STILL have not been corrected. Yeah, Yeah...I know..the Casino's. But many reservations/tribes STILL do not have Casino's. And on those reservations which do not. Life is Hell. Unsolved murders, based on political/economical/racial basis still abound on reservations such as Rosebud, etc. Political Prisoners from the days of AIM uprisings, still are not set free. Children still die in DROVES from diseases such as tuberculosis. A disease which they didn't have, until white man settled here. A disease which still is way undertreated, and diagnosed, because the healthcare system there, is so highly inadequate. Schoolrooms are still made out of wood, with coal burning stoves to heat them (inadequately) Our Government is STILL trying to steal the black hills. For Gold, For Uranium. What about fishing rights? There are many ills done to the Native American Culture which have still not been righted. Not in the least. Irish Americans, and Irish in general, Do not have these problems in the number, and the manner that The Native Americans still suffer them. Irish PAGANS do not face the same sort of oppression that the Native Americans do. I'm not too terribly sure about the laws in Ireland about Paganism...but..all the Pagans I know in Ireland, don't have to hide their faith unless they CHOOSE to. Yes..there is still predjudice. But..I haven't heard of anyone being pushed off a cliff, burned at the stake, beheaded, or hung for being Pagan recently.

I can feel free to celebrate St. Patricks day, because I have the Freedom, at least at the moment, to be Pagan. If I wanted to Go to Ireland, and visit some sacred sites, I wouldn't be burned at the stake.

In short, History has corrected the mistakes done to pagans or those suspected of witchcraft, on many levels. While it has not done so, on many levels, for the Native Americans.

And again. I won't be celebrating what St. Patrick did to the pagans years ago, on St. Patricks day. In my OWN mind, in my OWN heart, I'll be celebrating cultural pride, ancestral pride, family tradition, and the simple fact that as much as he may have wanted to...St. Patrick did NOT wipe out Paganism. :)

Edited to Add:

I'm aware that some Irish still face horrible situations, over in Ireland. Because of the battle between those who want brittish rule, and those who want freedom. Those who are catholic, and those who are protestant. I have family on both sides of the fence, however, and a cousin who works in a Belfast Hospital. The health conditions over there, make the Native American reservations look like purgatory in comparison. However. And crimes perpetrated by one side of the fence, or the other, have seen a major decline in recent years (according to her).

[buttercup]

I have always celebrated St. Patrick's Day and don't foresee that ever changing. My grandmother, Patricia, was full blooded Irish and born on March 17th. In our family you would be courting a full blown feud to NOT celebrate! Although she was a staunch Catholic, I don't believe her religious beliefs ever played into the celebration of St. Patrick's day and some of my favorite memories of her are of learning about herbs at her side in the garden and listening to the stories of Irish legends. She died ten years ago and in addition to the obigatory drinking and parties, I visit her grave each year on March 17th to leave a clover plant and remember a great woman.

[Ice violets]

There was no option to vote "No because I'm not irish" so I voted for one of the no's.

We don't celebrate St Patrick's Day in England and it isn't celebrated anywhere else in Europe (apart from Eire and Northern Ireland).

[Fear-farsain]

Thanks for all that information everyone, I consider myself a little educated. :D

St Patrick's Day is celebrated in England, well, at least in Manchester where I live anyway. We have a strong Irish background (if that's the right word) in Manchester, as they do in Liverpool, so I expect that I may be celebrating on the day myself. My Irish blood is somewhat diluted, but I'm from Scots/Irish ancestry and have an interest in that heritage.

[Blueowl]

I have definately been educated....know more now than I did before! Thank you all...Danaustouch...I am glad to see you celebrated it...and for all the right reasons....YEAH! HAW!!!!!

[st0rm]

I dont live in a country celebratin st.Patricks day, but I certainly wouldnt mind a extra day to get "pissed" on ;)

[Flutterby_whispers]

I celebrate St. paddy's day & will continue to do so. As a previous poster said, in Ireland it's not all religious, yes there are those who take it upon themselves to celebrate it for religious reasons but there are just as many who don't, rather they choose to celebrate their heritage & all that goes with it, the good & the bad. A day to have fun, be with family & of course another reason to drink lol

While there may be some ugly things invovling St. Paddy himself, I don't really care. For us it is a time to reminice, remember our ancestors, learn a thing or two about our family history & to enjoy ourselves & so I will continue to do so & will pass this tradition down to our children :)

Something Danustouch said that struck me:


On second thought... ya know..the Celts respected the spirits of their enemies (thus they kept the heads of those they killed, etc). So..perhaps I WILL raise a Glass to St. Pat..and say to myself..."You were a worthy opponant to the Pagans. But..you didn't defeat us entirely. Hopefully, you are happy in the place that you are. And may you be laughing with our Goddess upon this day".

smiles & nods in total agreement. To hate takes up so much energy, for me it is so much easier to be at peace & if anything to simply feel sorry for those who choose to be so cruel. St. Paddy's day may of started in one way, however we (my family) have choosen to take that day & make it something wonderful. Cheers to that I say!! :)

[Xander67]

here here!!!

You dont have to be religious to enjoy a nice yummy SHamrock Shake :)

[Celestial Tears]

HHmm.. I never really thought about it like that. I've always celebrated it... but I'm bias so I will not vote. St. Patrick's Day is my birthday...hehe... Besides I'm totally against the consumption of alcoholic beverages... I did use to drink green milk in the morning and I thought it was funny... Anyways, I guess I'm only going to celebrate it as my birthday, not as a holiday. I never really thought about the origin of the holiday. Thank you for this topic. It has truely enlightened me.

[Doodlebug]

:whatgives You know, I really have mixed feelings about St. Patricks Day after I read this. Also, this coming St. Patricks Day will be the first one that I have celebrated since I started practicing Wicca. I find it horrible that St. Patrick treated Pagans the way he did and I partly feel that by celebrating this holiday, I'd be celebrating religious intolerance which is something I am STRONGLY against! But then on the other hand I would also like to still celebrate it but only in a different way. Perhaps I could celebrate it by remembering my Irish heritage or by remembering and mourning those Pagans who lost their lives to St. Patrick and his followers. I mean, I want to have fun on this holiday, but yet I also feel the need to disaprove of the holiday because of its history. Wow, what gives?! :whatgives

[aftershocked]

There's a thread about this in the Druid forum, not sure if that has been mentioned. I'm feeling a little out, so I'm going to add my two wompom with an abridged knowledge of the forum.

I personal always celebrate 'Get-wasted-off-green-beer-and-eat-fried-foods' day (Yay Irish heritage! :thumbsup: ) I never even thought of the religious side until we saw a video on it in my Sunday school, where we saw St. Pat 'educate' the 'heathen druids (redundant much?)' of the 'love of Christ'. *Apparently Christ loves human sacrifice as much as our supposed 'heathen gods'[drips sarcasm]* So now I've added a black armband to my green outfit for the day, at the suggestion of FlyingBear. But I find no shame in celebrating it, merely because if we don't celebrate it, there'd never be discussion about the bad. And if the pagans of old were never discussed, then their sacrifice would hae been for nothing.

[Chibi-Fallon]

It's coming up on that time of year again! Okay not *really* but if my school can put up Winterfest posters (which is more then a month away still) well then I can start gearing up for St. Pattie's Day. :lol: I have time to make my own green beer this year. :lol:

[SeekerSandy]

There's a thread about this in the Druid forum, not sure if that has been mentioned. I'm feeling a little out, so I'm going to add my two wompom with an abridged knowledge of the forum.

I personal always celebrate 'Get-wasted-off-green-beer-and-eat-fried-foods' day (Yay Irish heritage! :thumbsup: ) I never even thought of the religious side until we saw a video on it in my Sunday school, where we saw St. Pat 'educate' the 'heathen druids (redundant much?)' of the 'love of Christ'. *Apparently Christ loves human sacrifice as much as our supposed 'heathen gods'[drips sarcasm]* So now I've added a black armband to my green outfit for the day, at the suggestion of FlyingBear. But I find no shame in celebrating it, merely because if we don't celebrate it, there'd never be discussion about the bad. And if the pagans of old were never discussed, then their sacrifice would hae been for nothing.

Ahh, that my old mind would be as quick as yours. The black armband, sewn onto a green one is just perfect! It gives an old s*** disturber like me great opportunities to speak my mind when asked about it!
The line about xian sacrifices is right on! :elf:

[aluokaloo]

I'm part Irish, and my family treats it as a welcome reprive to get together and have some fun. Watch the parade on tv, chow down on corn beef hash, drink green beverages and wear kiss me I'm Irish pins. I never knew what it was about.

[redthewitch75]

I was just pondering why so many non-Irish or non-Christians(for the paths of Christianity that don't hold the Saints on high?) celebrate St.Patrick's Day. Okay, so aside from the whole religious aspect...? To me it is kind of like widespread American celebration of Bastille Day...
I have always known St. Patrick's Day as a religious holiday, but I don't celebrate along those lines. I just celebrate my *green blood*.

Go ahead, Kiss me! I'm Irish.

[Avalon]

My 100% Italian family and I think it's a good excuse to have corned beef once a year.

And those Entenmann's cupcakes with the shamrock sprinkles on them. Mmmm.

:lol:

[Morr]

I havent read the whole entire thread, however I think that St. Patricks day has become more of an international drinking day, and a celebration of Ireland, rather then a celebration of the Saint himself.
I know that here in Israel -its all about the beer & the Irish music :)

So yeah, I see no harm in celebrating it.

[Thalias_Smile]

:rant: I do not care how other ppl celebrate St. Patrick's Day...I am Irish and Pagan...and there are some bad feelings concerning the fact that a traditionally Catholic holiday which celebrates St. Patrick "driving all the snakes out of Ireland" (which is just another way of saying he was responsible for nearly completely driving out paganism), has in fact the rather pagan imagery of 4-leaf clovers and leprachauns. Oh sure, I wear the green @ work, mainly because I would look far too conspicuous in the more appropriate color of black (representing the Druids, & the mourning of their nearly passing from this world completely). But I say, to each their own...you celebrate it your way, and I wont celebrate it at all :elf:

[LittleRhiannon]

I usually wear all black, but I can understand celebrating it. If it weren't for Patrick, someone else might have come along and destroyed the entire culture, instead of blending it with christianity.

[Alaiyo]

At least you don't have to live under the ruse of "Evacuation Day." Here in Massachusetts, kids in school can't celebrate St. Patrick's Day as a holiday once they hit a certain grade, you must celebrate Evacuation Day, if anything at all.. I least that this was the day when the British troops and their Loyalist supporters fled Boston thus opening the port again. Of course, that's what you can celebrate as a 'legal' holiday. Everyone else just pours and pint and wears the green.

[Shanti]

I couldnt use your pole. You dont have an other listed.

If an individual wants to celebrate it , no matter what their reson is, sure they can.

I dont celebrate it because I have no reason or desire to. I celebrate no christian holidays. no reason for me to.

[edenbolake]

I celebrate St. Paddy's day because I am of Irish ancestry . And in the end the old guy did a complete about face and had his priests save some of the written manuscripts concerning our kind . That is what I celebrate , the act of the man , not the man himself. I look for an excuse to celebrate something pagan.

edenbolake

[Cadabuz]

I have thought about this for sometime now. Last year I did not really celebrate but I did not take a stand not to celebrate either. This year I am still unsure of what to do. I did read the entire thread though as I have been thinking about this again. There was something in here I read that kinda made sense. It said that the Celts used to give thanks to their enemies (or something similar) and I have read that before. I think I will celebrate it now. I will just do it with a different understanding. I am not Irish. I do not even follow a specific celtic path. I know what has been said about what St Patrick has done and I have heard it denied. I will celebrate life and death on this day. I will celebrate the life I have now and all my loved ones enjoy and I will also celebrate the deaths of fellow humans and know that in life there is death and with out one you cannot have the other. I will tilt a few pints and just be glad for what has been given to me.

[WrathofCirce]

I hate St. Patrick's day. I think it is because I really despise kelly green :blech: Oh, and really bad break up memories that involved what I thought would be a soul searching, peaceful and comforting trip to The Temple of Dendur at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and ended with me being swept away in a sea of people who were standing close enough to be wearing my underwear too.

Last year we celibrated Patricks Day. Everyone wore pink and watched Sponge Bob.

[Kelley]

I got more Irish running through me than a person needs. I was born on Saint Patricks Day, my name has Irish roots beginning middle and end. My eyes are green and I've got just a bit of red running through my hair at times. My grandparents came from Ireland, or was it their grandparents? Don't know, really don't know them. But I do know the whole side of that family (mother's side) is Roman Catholic.

Despite all that I don't really celebrate St. Patricks Day. Granted it's my birthday so I'm going to do something .... :halohead: . It would be great is I was a drinker, you get free drinks on your birthday :hahugh:

But as far as celebrating the day itself, why bother. It is just like so many other religious holidays anymore, money, who can make the most money. The true meaning of holidays isn't celebrated by many people anymore wheither it's Christmas, Easter, St. Patrick's Day of whatever, I don't celebrate any of them. Even when I was in a Baptist church I didn't feel the need to celebrate because it just seemed too fake to me :razz: .

I haven't read though all the post so if I copied someone I'm sorry...caffeine hasn't gotten to my brain yet.

Enjoy the day,

Sasha

[RogueEcho]

I have a question, actually, for all the people who say they don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day (which, as a feast day of the Catholic Church, has become commericialized today and was probably some sort of festival/market day in the pre-Christian era).....do you celebrate other holidays? (ie, Christmas especially for those of you with children), etc....

[Phoenix Blue]

I have a question, actually, for all the people who say they don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day (which, as a feast day of the Catholic Church, has become commericialized today and was probably some sort of festival/market day in the pre-Christian era).....do you celebrate other holidays? (ie, Christmas especially for those of you with children), etc....
I don't know that that's relevant. One can object to the cause celebré behind one of a religion's holidays and have no problem celebrating other holidays of that religion. Besides, among the other most-celebrated holidays in the US and Europe, how many are truly Christian, as opposed to having Pagan roots?

[charmedkisses1]

I don't know that that's relevant. One can object to the cause celebré behind one of a religion's holidays and have no problem celebrating other holidays of that religion. Besides, among the other most-celebrated holidays in the US and Europe, how many are truly Christian, as opposed to having Pagan roots?
True. And most Christian picked already pagan holidays to make it easier. I mean no one knows WHEN Jesus was born.... lol

[SeekerSandy]

True. And most Christian picked already pagan holidays to make it easier. I mean no one knows WHEN Jesus was born.... lol

As an enlightened Pagan, you should read the apocrypha. Rabbi (or teacher, or prophet) Yeshua was born in the early spring. Yule was appropriated by the early xian church to help their efforts of prosthletyzation as murdering non believers wasn't helping their recruitment efforts. Keep in mind that jesus and christ are both titles, not names. They were ascribed to him centuries after his death, as was the label christian."
He never heard himself addressed by those names when he was alive, he was generally called "teacher," or "Rabbi."
The early followers of the path he started, called "the Way," did not really celebrate his day of birth but did quietly honor it, doing so in what was then late February or early March.
The books called apocryphal (of questionable origin and content, nearly apostatic and not to be considered "true" xian gospels) are considered such because they were quite accurate records, written during the age the rabbi was alive or barely dead but quite contridictory to the "truths" being pushed like cheap drugs on the masses.

[RogueEcho]

Actually, the only reason they're not official is because the Council of Nicaea decided that they didn't fit Constantine's vision of a religion to unite the Roman Empire. Many of the Apocrypha are considered canon by other nominally Christian faiths, or by opposing sects of the day (ie, non-Orthodox sects such as the Gnostics). It is not necessarily because the Apocrypha are questionable -- it was simple choice of what fit the vision best.

[Fideal]

I don't celebrate St. Patricks day, because why would someone celebrate the stifling of a culture? I'm not irish (so my dad says) but I'm half Welsh and also have some Scottish (probably scots-irish) in me. I'm an Irish Reconstructionist, and whenever Patricks day rolls around, I can't help feel frustrated at how much easier my research would be if he hadn't ever come to Ireland.

As for the snake thing, well, snakes were a symbol of the Devil in the Christianity, right? And false gods were all Satan according the them, so it makes sense that Pat would liken chasing out the Druids to chasing out "snakes".

[~Anamorata~]

Try being half Egyptian and half Irish...confuses me most of the time! But, I tend to stay on the Egyptian side, it's easier for me...but, I do like a really good party, so why not celebrate St. Paddy's day? Just another excuse to party and get drunk! LOL :thewave: :drinking: :drinking:

[Sleet]

I hoist a pint, sing boisterously, and dance to the pipes every March 17th. You can take the boy out of Irish Catholicism, but you can't take the Irish Catholic out of the boy - not completely, anyway. In my head, it's not a religious holiday, no more than St. Valentine's Day is.

[Fideal]

Just another excuse to party and get drunk! LOL :thewave: :drinking: :drinking:

Thats another thing. So many people claim its a day to celebrate being Irish and get drunk. Is that what Irish culture has boiled down to? Getting drunk off green beer? The culture is so much MORE than that! Why isn't there story telling, and music, and dancing on a day that is supposed to be for celebrating Irish culture?

[dr_zeus440]

well, it involves green, beer and a leafy shamrocky thingy....eh, thats pagan enough for me!

[~Anamorata~]

My dad's friend, who is full bloodied Irish, and from County Kerry, says it's all a matter of taste...celebrate it if you want, and if you don't want to do so, it doesn't mean you have to ruin it for those who do...and as for green beer...I prefer barley beer myself...in it's original color! Green beer?! :crazy: Yuck!!!

[Calen]

I think that both the events (and different interpretations) surrounding Patrick's time in Ireland and the transformation Paddy's Day has undergone in the past few hundred years is complex enough that I'm better off giving a nod to the day, and reflecting on both my Irish ancestors and all that was transformed and lost in Patrick's time in Ireland than just refusing to awknowlege the day and stewing over the negative bits.

[Tangerines]

I don't see why one can't. I also don't udnerstand the heavily anti-Christian attitude a lot of pagans seem to take around St. Patrick's Day. The Irish weren't converted at point of sword, and were considerably liberal for a few hundred years, until the supression of "Celtic Christianity".

[Sonic Seamus]

I think that both the events (and different interpretations) surrounding Patrick's time in Ireland and the transformation Paddy's Day has undergone in the past few hundred years is complex enough that I'm better off giving a nod to the day, and reflecting on both my Irish ancestors and all that was transformed and lost in Patrick's time in Ireland than just refusing to awknowlege the day and stewing over the negative bits.

Well said.

It does make me wonder though, if Christian missionaries took pagan holidays for thier own, would I be wrong to turn such a holiday into something pagan? I dont take part in the green beer thing and fairly recently I stopped doing the corned beef and cabbage thing since corned beef was borrowed from the jews when the Irish came to the States. I think a genuine Irish dinner with family and friends and/or meditation would be a start. Who knows, maybe someday St. Patricks day will be called something else in the Pagan cirlces.

[Shanti]

All I know is that I dont celebrate any of the christian holidays..none. What anyone else wants to do...cool. :)

[AlAskendir]

This year, as in the past few years, I won’t be participating in any St. Patrick’s Day festivities on March 17. Perhaps I’ll go to the library and dig up the oldest book on Celtic pagan history I can find, and instead of burning it, I’ll read it. I may also do a ritual of remembrance and mourning, not only for the heritage of many of my pagan brothers and sisters, but for the Christian Irish too. As another friend recently commented, "Maybe the snakes need to come back to Ireland…maybe they’d stop the followers of the Prince of Peace from shedding all that Irish blood in his name!" I believe he's right--but that’s a whole ‘nuther essay.[/QUOTE]

Well, another appropriate response is to have a big blue snake

temporarily tattooed around one or both wrists, and avoid wearing green
(don't wear orange particularly either, though)

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, personally, I do celebrate it (here in the US), and have fun doing it. I *am* part of the Gaelic Culture Society here on campus. ^_^ We don't do so much of the green beer and getting drunk and parades and stuff, though. We just usually all wear green t-shirts (they always have a snake, usually an Ouroboros, on them) and have a bake sale, and then sometimes we'll go out if it's not a school night. Since the whole club is about celebrating Irish (and Scottish!) culture, it would be kind of silly to ignore it. But, Beltaine and Samhain are the bigger holidays for the society. So in summary, yes, but I remember the snakes as an integral part of Irish culture and history.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

PS: and no, I'm not Irish; my ancestors raided and pillaged the Irish, among others. ^_^

[LittleRhiannon]

Well, personally, I do celebrate it (here in the US), and have fun doing it. I *am* part of the Gaelic Culture Society here on campus. ^_^ We don't do so much of the green beer and getting drunk and parades and stuff, though. We just usually all wear green t-shirts (they always have a snake, usually an Ouroboros, on them) and have a bake sale, and then sometimes we'll go out if it's not a school night. Since the whole club is about celebrating Irish (and Scottish!) culture, it would be kind of silly to ignore it. But, Beltaine and Samhain are the bigger holidays for the society. So in summary, yes, but I remember the snakes as an integral part of Irish culture and history.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

PS: and no, I'm not Irish; my ancestors raided and pillaged the Irish, among others. ^_^

Now, THATS something I can agree with. Actually celebrating the culture instead of using it as an excuse to get piss drunk and eat potatos (which didn't even originate in Ireland!). What a novel idea :smile:

If I had kids (which I don't, because I'm 15 and don't ever plan on having them) I would probably read bits of The Tain to them.

I don't know if I'm Irish, because my dad hates the Irish (his first wife was) and refuses to admit if he has Irish roots (I think we probably do, because he won't say where some of my ancestors are from), and I'm Welsh on my moms side. When I was little my mom used to read parts of my Children's Mabinogian to me on Saint Davids Day, and I think it would be nice to do something like that on St. Patricks day to.

[Sonic Seamus]

Well, personally, I do celebrate it (here in the US), and have fun doing it. I *am* part of the Gaelic Culture Society here on campus. ^_^ We don't do so much of the green beer and getting drunk and parades and stuff, though. We just usually all wear green t-shirts (they always have a snake, usually an Ouroboros, on them) and have a bake sale, and then sometimes we'll go out if it's not a school night. Since the whole club is about celebrating Irish (and Scottish!) culture, it would be kind of silly to ignore it. But, Beltaine and Samhain are the bigger holidays for the society. So in summary, yes, but I remember the snakes as an integral part of Irish culture and history.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

PS: and no, I'm not Irish; my ancestors raided and pillaged the Irish, among others. ^_^

That sounds like the first step in taking it back! :hmmmmm:

[KissMeImIrish!]

I've celebrated it for a few years now, but like others said I never associated it with my religion, or any religion for that matter. I always considered it a 'nationality' holiday, where Irish (such as myself) celebrate being Irish! (guinness, pubs, and all that ;) ) Although I'm sure some people celebrate it for it's christian implication, I think it can be celebrated for different reasons, such as a celebration of Irish heritage. It's personally one of my favourite holidays! :D (and so much fun too) :drinking:

[wakywitch]

I think it should be a personal preference.

[gurlygurl2004]

American holidays just don't have the spiritual meanings that they use to. People just see them as a time for partying and vacation.

[Sonic Seamus]

American holidays just don't have the spiritual meanings that they use to. People just see them as a time for partying and vacation.

But 54% of the country voted for the religious right! :veryweird

[WickedBttrfly]

I wear something green so I don't get pinched, but besides that I guess I don't celebrate it. Not because I associate it with religion though. I just don't think of it as much of a holiday.

[arctic splash]

Yes... if you want to... and for whatever reason you want to....

And no.... if you don't want to....

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Isn't it even remotely possible that the Christians made up their OWN HOLIDAY? *gasp* No, I won't believe it! Gods forbid that the Evil Wicked Monotheists didn't steal everything from those good, faithful and true pagans of old! Everyone knows that Christianity has no creativity and originality whatsoever!
Gods, lay the hells off them. Saint paddy's day is much more a secular festival and an excuse to dye things green and drink obscenely, and I cannot even bein to start on the whole damnable driving out the pagans idea. Grow up, leave the poor Christians alone, and drink if you damn well want. Otherwise, stop bitching. Sh*t or get off the pot.
I don't exactly celebrate it, but that's because I don't drink.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Isn't it even remotely possible that the Christians made up their OWN HOLIDAY? *gasp* No, I won't believe it! Gods forbid that the Evil Wicked Monotheists didn't steal everything from those good, faithful and true pagans of old! Everyone knows that Christianity has no creativity and originality whatsoever!
Gods, lay the hells off them. Saint paddy's day is much more a secular festival and an excuse to dye things green and drink obscenely, and I cannot even bein to start on the whole damnable driving out the pagans idea. Grow up, leave the poor Christians alone, and drink if you damn well want. Otherwise, stop bitching. Sh*t or get off the pot.
I don't exactly celebrate it, but that's because I don't drink.Well there's no need to be offensive about it. There are numerous ways you can state that opinion without using the language you did. I understand you're frustrated at the self-pitying persecution complex that it seems like pagans (esp. wiccans) are susceptible to, but your approach will only make people defensive and they won't listen to what you have to say, IMO.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Know Your Rights]

Yes, I do, and always will, A) It's fun, especially when you're in school (more so in elementary), and B) Because I'm Irish (and yes, I would wear a "kiss me, I'm Irish" sign :D)

[PoisonIvy]

I don't really celebrate St. Patricks Day but it's prolly because I don't know what the heck it's for anyway. The drinking part of it has prolly been blown out of proportion anyway. St. Patricks day isn't just for drinking is it? I know Easter and Halloween are not supposed to be about how much candy ya get, and Christmas isn't suppose to be about how many gifts you get! So what's the big deal?

[CleftOfLight]

ummmmmmm no because wasnt St.Patrick against pagans?

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I'm sorry, but at times, you need to be offensive and pound the truth into people's heads. otherwise you have slimy, wretched clots going about saying that St. Patrick's Day is offensive to pagans, screaming loudly about discrimination, and engaging in gratuitous, uncouth, and just plain rude Christian-bashing, while engaging in that most unspeakable vice (of the Greeks, a-ha. no, not really the Greeks) of bad history. As a result we get uneducated and/or wilfuly ignorant boobs saying that Saint Paddy organized crusades against the Irish Wiccans, or some garbage like that.
Interestingly, there's a Saint Patrick's Church downtown here in Hamilton that has flocks and flocks of wonderful bats in the bell-tower. Now if only I could arrange to have the pipe organ play 'Toccata and Fugue in D Minor' and a few forlorn wolf-howls, and I'd be set! Hlisten to ze children uff ze night, vhat vunderful musik zey make!

[misschief]

YES!!! because it's fun!! geeeesh.

[AmericanMe]

Silverfire you rock!!! Couldn't have said it better!

Why would people pass up the chance to celebrate because of religious prejudice? St. Pattys is basically a National Get-Drunk-Day anyway, so quit whining and go get plastered!

[Fane Ayuma]

Im Irish, im off to the pub,

Begorrah and bedehokey, and wouldja looka the cut of the bog there........

More stout......

[Fane Ayuma]

Silverfire you rock!!! Couldn't have said it better!

Why would people pass up the chance to celebrate because of religious prejudice? St. Pattys is basically a National Get-Drunk-Day anyway, so quit whining and go get plastered!


Yes, jeremy here has got the right idea.


Wohoo!!


BEER BEER BEER, BED BED BED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doodlebug]

I think it's a matter of personal conscience.

[MoonDragn]

I'm not irish or christian and I celebrate it! ;)
Chance to see irish girls dancing! I'm there!

[Morrighan61]

I don't celebrate "St Patrick's" day much to my very Irish clan's horror. But I do celebrate "Erin's Day" on that date. Goddess Ire or Erin is after all the REAL patron of the Emerald Isle. I wear green all right, but I also wear enough very PAGAN jewelry to make it clearly apparent who I am honoring on that day...I also have a button that wishes folks a "Happy Erin's Day..." that I pop on my coat.

Yup, in my own small way, I'm taking the day BACK from the Bishop and giving HER her due...

Just an FYI more than one Irish person has "gotten" where I am coming from and cheerfully wished me the joys of the day. "Erin" is still a very popular lass over there and she does pop up in the culture to this day. (Check out Michael Flatley's "Lord of the Dance" she's the "Lady in Green" and incidentally the "Gypsy" in that is the Welsh-Irish Morrighan...)

Anyhow she's one of the main Goddesses of my ancestral homeland and I'd rather honor HER than some Christian priest who only THOUGHT he'd chased all the fey folk out of Ireland....

Morrighan

[Dannen]

I personally celebrate St Patricks day to hounor my Irishness. Considering people in the North celebrate the Queen's jubliee to celebrate their so called Britishness, i think it is only right the other side the the cumminity should celebrate their Irishness.

[Suzette]

Pardon my ingnorance, but I haven't had the chance to read all the pages of this thread, but was interested in the topic.

I'm half Irish, but have no desire to celebrate the individual responsible for bringing Christianity to Ireland and driving the Pagans out.

However, I do celebrate traditions and regardless of my belief system, I'll still attend Christmas, Easter, etc, and whatnot celebrations as I look at it as a family thing. My 'immediates' know I'm Pagan, so it's all good and we just all have a great time... They think it's kind of a novelty to have a Witch in the family, LOL.

And should I mention how wild my crazy Irish cousins are, LOLOL??? I do make a corned beef n cabbage dinner with Irish cream pudding for desert and break out the Guiness. Ah, LOTS of Guiness, LOL!

[Catiana]

Although I'm part Irish, I don't celebrate St. Patrick's day or any other holiday for that matter.

[teh_fae]

I do celebrate St. Patricks day. I'm half Irish and I like honoring that with celebrating St. Patricks day. I think it just really depends on each individual persons beliefs on whether or not they celebrate this particular holiday. But as I always say, whatever floats your boat.

[soilsigh aingeal]

Yes, I will probably go to the bar and drink green beer for a little while...

[memnoch]

I'm of Nordic decent, so I celebrate it by outdrinking the men and then pillaging their bar

[Dragon_Lady_of_Air]

I am pagan and I am irish I will celebrate anything I want when I want to. Not to be mean but thats like taking away easter for a christian kid.

[Suzette]

I am pagan and I am irish I will celebrate anything I want when I want to. Not to be mean but thats like taking away easter for a christian kid.

But aren't Christian kids supposed to celebrate Easter? Why would you take away that?

You can be Irish (as I am), Pagan (as I am) and not celebrate the "meaning" of the holiday, rather the tradition. Or are you trying to say that you are Pagan and celebrate Christianity?

:confused:

edit** should mention 1/2 Irish... 1/2 French. Should see how we celebrate Bastille Day, LMAO!

[lia_amberwolf]

PERSONALLYi think everyone should celebrate St. Paddy's day.ESPECIALLY PAGANS. itisour natureto lookfor ANY excuse to grab a bottle of mead and party down!

[Suzette]

LMAO... LA, you're invited to the next party with the Casey's & the O'Rohr's.... Watch out for the annual family prank though... BAH!

[teh_fae]

I think it depends on whether they want to or not. It's completely their choice and even if they do have irish heritage if they don't want to, then they shouldn't. It's an option on individual rights, in my opinion.

I celebrate St. Patricks day, I have heritage way back to the early celtics. I love celebrating it, I'm proud of my heritage :)

[FlyingBear]

Even tho I'm 1/2 Irish, I do not celebrate St. Patricks Day. I think it's offensive to make it a holiday when it was the native faiths that he was stomping out. Bugs the hell out of me when people use it as an excuse to drink to excess. :blech:

[Dragon_Lady_of_Air]

To alot of christians I know, the Easter bunny represents a pagan god and so they deam it an offensive holiday to their faith. Or we can talk about how some peopel take away christmas because their religion tells them to do it. To me a holiday is a holiday. Plain and simple. Thougth st patrick may not have been good or bad he's dead none of us knew the real man. Its just a holiday that gives peopel a chance to get together and be friendly I personnally find nothing wrong with that and they want to throw down some Jack Daniels to go along with it thats great to.

St.Patrick is part of my family tree. It is part of who I am. Though I am a Witch I am still Irish and I love my heritage.

[treefae]

i think it's a good excuse to go mingle with my fellow irish people.going down to my local irish pub and having some irish stew and soda bread and beer.i will miss the parade in south boston for another year sniff.

[treefae]

i don't think of christian holidays as very spirtual.i think of them as commercialized.i also think they are very imaginative now,nothing close to their religious reasons lol.just think how changed sabbats would become if they were popular.i'm not threatened at all by christianity.i think it's a christian trait to be paranoid and suspicious of other religions.so thank you st.patrick for bringing me green beer and leprechauns lol.humans love to fantasize and celebrate and i don't think any religion stays absolute.rules change all the time.i think children have hijacked the holidays too and that's fine with me.

[RowanMegaera]

I tend to observe most holidays in my own way, celebrating the diversity of my heritage.

On a lighter note...

It's not a real holiday until they make Peeps for it. I am a firm believer in the evolution of holidays, they start off as mere observances, grow into card giving holidays, then candy holidays and finally Peeps holidays. Just look at the Fourth of July! It's all grown up, there are red white and blue starry Peeps.

[treefae]

oh i love peeps

[Nantonos]

I don't celebrate St. Patricks day, because why would someone celebrate the stifling of a culture? I'm not irish (so my dad says) but I'm half Welsh and also have some Scottish (probably scots-irish) in me. I'm an Irish Reconstructionist, and whenever Patricks day rolls around, I can't help feel frustrated at how much easier my research would be if he hadn't ever come to Ireland.

As for the snake thing, well, snakes were a symbol of the Devil in the Christianity, right? And false gods were all Satan according the them, so it makes sense that Pat would liken chasing out the Druids to chasing out "snakes".
:seehearsp bump

Totally agree about the stifling of a culture.

When he came to Ireland, as its enlightener, it was a pagan country; when he ended his earthly life some thirty years later, about 461, the Faith of Christ was established in every corner." (Great Horologion)
http://www.abbamoses.com/months/march.html

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, I'm going to celebrate it, and I'm going to start the morning right. (I'm really excited) I'm not just going to break bread, I'm going to break snake bread! Courtesy of the fine bakers of my school's dining services. ^_^ I think it's awesome. Far better than green cupcakes or clovers. Yea for the snakes!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[MorningDove030202]

Being Pagan is not an excuse to Party....no it's not in all of our natures to drink. I probably have maybe 6 drinks a year.
Dove



PERSONALLYi think everyone should celebrate St. Paddy's day.ESPECIALLY PAGANS. itisour natureto lookfor ANY excuse to grab a bottle of mead and party down!

[MorningDove030202]

Yes, Ya for the Snakes!! I'm all for doning a snake on ST Patties day.... oh crap that's today...LOL
Dove


Well, I'm going to celebrate it, and I'm going to start the morning right. (I'm really excited) I'm not just going to break bread, I'm going to break snake bread! Courtesy of the fine bakers of my school's dining services. ^_^ I think it's awesome. Far better than green cupcakes or clovers. Yea for the snakes!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Nantonos]

Well, I'm going to celebrate it, and I'm going to start the morning right. (I'm really excited) I'm not just going to break bread, I'm going to break snake bread! Courtesy of the fine bakers of my school's dining services. ^_^ I think it's awesome. Far better than green cupcakes or clovers. Yea for the snakes!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

I love the snake bread! Excellent.
:fprtyman4

[JasmineRose]

To me, it seems wrong and very hypocritical to call oneself a pagan, Irish ancestry aside, and celebrate St. Patrick's Day. I don't agree with the historical/religious side at all. Even before finding the pagan path, I've never celebrated it or agreed with the thinking behind the original events, much less why would you want to glorify it? I have nothing against drinking or parties but I think just because you have a holiday, Christian or Pagan or otherwise, is a poor excuse to go out and get drunk or try to. If someone else wants to celebrate it and doesn't care about the history/religion behind it, then that's their perogative.

[Sonic Seamus]

Everyone I work with knows of my Irish/Scottish decent so naturally I'm greeted with “Happy St. Patrick's Day” when I get to work. Boy are they taken aback when I go off about the celebrating of ethnic cleansing and the eradication of a millennium of wisdom and culture.

[Flar's Freyja]

Of course, I can't be too blatant or opinionated at Bella, but I hope that my subtle implications can be read between the lines:

St. Patrick Follows His Dreams (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art29230.asp)

[Krafty Werks]

Don't we have enough drunk holidays?

I don't celebrate any holiday, because holidays are nothing but useless money pits.

[Hærfest Leah]

My family celebrated it when I was growing up only by having a corned beef dinner. I never knew what it was about, they never said. Ya know, just being a kid and you do things because that's what everyone else is doing. I have a little Irish in me and my husband is mostly Irish. We could care less to celebreate it if you want to look at it as a religous christian holiday. no way

[CleftOfLight]

I say if you want to celebrate saint patty's day I say go for it.Me personally I never Celebrated Saint Patricks Day before and I know I never will.
But if you do,I see nothing wrong with it.

[Avagain]

well, it was only this st patty's day that i actually came upon the knowlege of what St patty's was all about, cos my brother has a new friend who follows his irish heritage and he took us out to an irish pub on st patricks day. i myself am part irish.
honestly, i had a ball! it was just a blast to dance along to irish music and laugh over a meal.

Most holidays these days have lost their religious meaning ... look at christmas!

I say if there's a holiday where you can go out with friends and family and have a huge laugh, do it. it is not an insult to the repressed pagans of the past more like a rejoicement in our struggle back to existance.

after all struggle is what made us stronger.

cheers
Avagain

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

"Help, help, I'm being repressed!" Repression of pagans, indeed.
I celebrated by going to an absinthe party. mmm. Absinthe. Hey, it is green, after all.

[StephanieAine]

Christianity had *already arrived* in Ireland when Patrick returned to Ireland as a missionary. However, after Patrick began his missionary work, more of the people were exposed to the teachings of Christianity and became converts. One way to say it would be that Patrick was the catalyst for more widespread change, so he became associated as the one who "brought" Christianity to the Irish. Yes, he "brought" it - just as the previous Christian missionaries did. He was just more effective I suppose.

I don't understand the issues everyone is talking about when it comes to Patrick and the Christian development of Ireland. He actually was quite good at conversing with the people and relating Christian ideas with druidic teaching. The native Irish weren't forced to accept the faith; their culture was kept intact as they became Christian... and their experience of "Christianization" ended up being a vibrant, beautiful and unique form of faith because of it.

The problems (for instance, the insistence upon ending various Celtic practices and accepting cultural ways not their own, etc) occurred after the Synod of Whitby. It was *Roman change* and the ruling of Oswy/Oswiu (depending on the spelling you use; I use the former) - which resulted in the Celtic traditions being swept under the rug. (For a couple of centuries, during the period when Christianity was still growing in Ireland and the Roman Christian ways had not yet been an issue, the new Irish Christians and those still holding to their native Irish religious beliefs were living side by side on the island... and that's the way it was at that time. After the meeting in Northumbria, THEN there was an issue of "give up your Celtic ways." Please understand - to "the Church" (which in this sense refers to the Roman church, who clearly felt that they knew best, period), the pagans were pagans... and basically, the Celtic Christians were pagans, too, because they didn't toe the theological line. It didn't matter that the Celtic Christians held to the exact same faith in the One-in-Three God of the Bible and accepted Jesus Christ as Savior; they had to give up their savage and primitive silliness and do as St. Peter would have them do. As it turned out, the Celtic church representatives at Whitby had to give in to the Roman church officials since King Oswy agreed with Rome. That was the beginning of the end, at least officially.)

None of this has anything at all to do with Patrick.

As for St. Patrick's Day - if you're from North America or elsewhere in the Diaspora, it's really a matter of having pride in heritage, aside from any religious views a person may have (obviously there will be people who see it as a deeply spiritual/religious day, while others see it as religious/cultural, and still others as a day to 'wear the green' and indicate their Irishness).

What I often think about is my ancestors dying with grass stains on their mouths during the famine, and how many people left the island for America, believing that they'd have a future for their children. I think about how wonderful it is that today, school children in Ireland are encouraged to speak Irish and are not prohibited from doing so (there was a time when such a thing wasn't permitted at all); the fact that Irish-Americans have come such a long way from the time when we were thought of as being sub-human; the fact that some people tried to change the sound of their names to make them seem more English or more American in hopes of having better opportunities. Today, more and more people are proud of their Irish roots. Many are reclaiming the true spellings of their names, reclaiming their heritage, learning bits of Gaeilge and teaching their kids about various aspects of culture/spirituality/language/history/(anything!) that may help them to realize what it means to be an Irish-American. Really, what it means to be a descendant of the Diaspora - being both American and Irish, hand in hand.

I live my life in such a way that my Americanness and my Irishness are just a fact, and a sense of where I fit into the web of the world, you know? My religious connection to it is probably the most obvious aspect, since it's a day in and day out way of life (I'm Celtic Christian). So I don't think of St. Patrick's Day as being "a day to be proud to be Irish" because I'm always proud of my heritage. On the other hand, I do like to celebrate (not with green beer, but with a prayer and candles on the hearth... and maybe a special dinner). For me, it's an opportunity to acknowledge heritage rather than simply blend into generic "Americanness" - which means many, many things. I think that's good since it's a day when Irish-America is a much more visible community, and I like being able to take part in that.

[Furi]

I celebrate, just as a way to show off my Irishness. I love Ireland as it is my heritage. I really don't celebrate it as in celebrating St. Pat. I celebrate because its fun and silly!

[Dawa Lhamo]

It's getting about that time again, so I thought I'd bump this thread. ^_^ Maybe I'll bake my own snake bread this year... Definitely going to raise a toast to the "snakes". ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[WitchOfEndor]

I celebrate St.Patrick's Day but it has absolutely no religious importance to me. I celebrate & remember all the wonderful Irish people I know or have known & watch my lil girl try to copy the Riverdance step by step. I'm very proud of the Irish blood that flows through my veins . Besides, I have 2 little red head daughters who rock the green clothes like few others,there my little Irish American Princesses. :)

[Rasenna]

Not by default, no.
I personally have no Irish in me, so I don't celebrate it.
But if I did, I'd wear orange like the Protestants do to oppose the enemy of my Druidic and Celtic brothers and sisters.
:yayah:
~R

[WokeUpDead]

If I were St. Patrick and the Christians are right about their whole religious system and everything I would ask God to show his angry side again and strike down anybody (preferably in a violent way) who used my day as just another excuse to get drunk.

[cinatus]

You know if you look at alot of the traditions surrounding St. Patricks day, alot of them have pagan roots. Like the shamrock and leprachans (sp). Stuff like that. Its just like the Christians with Halloween. The large majority of them don't like to celebrate it because of its pagan roots and as a matter of fact alot of them tell their followers to hold up in their houses with the light off and pray for the little heathen running around on the streets. But there was this one guy on CBN.org as a matter of fact that said, "just because pagan people celebrate the pagan aspects of the holiday does not mean christians have to. It sets a bad example of Christians that we are all hold up in our houses being very anti-social on what could be a harmless kids holiday" So thats my take on the whole St. Patricks day thing. Just because it was originally a holiday celebrating the ridding of Ireland of pagans, does not mean that WE have to celebrate it that way.

-Cinatus

[David19]

I've never really celebrated it, and i'm half Irish, but personally i would, since just because it celebrate's Ireland turning to Christianity, doesn't make it any less of a holiday (plus i've never even thought of it as religious, neither has my dad, i don't think, he just uses it to get drunk, which i think most people do) so i think you should celebrate it, get drunk, have some fun, religion can't be taken too seriously.

[MorningDove030202]

I celebrate it with snakes and black.....in rememberance to the pagan Irish past.....though I'm probably not Irish......

Dove

[Jenne]

If I were St. Patrick and the Christians are right about their whole religious system and everything I would ask God to show his angry side again and strike down anybody (preferably in a violent way) who used my day as just another excuse to get drunk.

Geez, WUD. What a killjoy!

[Little Billy]

St Patrick: Chased the snakes out of Ireland. We get drunk on his day.

Okay...seeing as he didn't actually chase any snakes out of Ireland, and he still gets a day to himself, I now declare March 30th to be...

ST BILLY'S DAY: St Billy chased the crocodiles out of Norway. It is traditional to celebrate his day by getting your monkey on in a serious way with any consenting adult(s) that will agree to it. Powertools are optional.

Now, get out there and HONOR me!

[Meabh23]

You know if you look at alot of the traditions surrounding St. Patricks day, alot of them have pagan roots. Like the shamrock and leprachans (sp). Stuff like that. Its just like the Christians with Halloween. The large majority of them don't like to celebrate it because of its pagan roots and as a matter of fact alot of them tell their followers to hold up in their houses with the light off and pray for the little heathen running around on the streets. But there was this one guy on CBN.org as a matter of fact that said, "just because pagan people celebrate the pagan aspects of the holiday does not mean christians have to. It sets a bad example of Christians that we are all hold up in our houses being very anti-social on what could be a harmless kids holiday" So thats my take on the whole St. Patricks day thing. Just because it was originally a holiday celebrating the ridding of Ireland of pagans, does not mean that WE have to celebrate it that way.

-Cinatus

Leprechauns may come from older ideas, but as they are thought of today, they are no older than Christianity. Thus they are not what you can call "pagan." There is a lot more to Christian mythology and local lore than what some of you assume, and not much of that local lore can be called "pagan." To do so would also be insulting towards the people who believed in such lore because they are/were Christian and not "pagan." Pagans have no right to go around claiming things as their own.

Actually, the shamrock is a Christian symbol, in case you didn't know. It symbolizes the Holy Trinity, or so I was told.

I think Pagans can celebrate any day they want to. What part of Polytheism do you not understand? You can take part in supposedly Christian celebrations. Don't worry about that. There are no Pagan religious police that are going to destroy you because you went and had mass or celebrated a saint day. Again I ask, do you know what Polytheism means?

[Meadhbh]

If I didn't I would have to advoid my family on Friday. I don't have a problem with it really. Yes Patrick was evil and all, but how many people today really think about the saint on March 17. Like Mardi Gras the whole focus has changed (well not really for Mardi Gras).

[gwendar]

I celebrate it or not, depends on if there's a good party on the go.
We Newfs likes to drink almost as much as the Irish. :lol:
And it's another excuse for me to wear green! My favourite colour!

I really don't see a problem with celebrating it. Here, no one seems to even notice that it has religious connotations. It seems to me more of a secularized holiday that's a great excuse to get together with friends for a theme party. And lot's of Newfoundlanders have Irish blood, so that's cool.
(Actually, there's a Newf band called The Irish Descendants!)

No party for me this year, though. Me ma and pa are coming in to visit me, and are taking me and my brother out for steak. Mmmmmmmmm ....

[Dawa Lhamo]

Leprechauns may come from older ideas, but as they are thought of today, they are no older than Christianity. Thus they are not what you can call "People." There is a lot more to Christian mythology and local lore than what some of you assume, and not much of that local lore can be called "People." To do so would also be insulting towards the people who believed in such lore because they are/were Christian and not "People." Peoples have no right to go around claiming things as their own.

Actually, the shamrock is a Christian symbol, in case you didn't know. It symbolizes the Holy Trinity, or so I was told.

I think Peoples can celebrate any day they want to. What part of Polytheism do you not understand? You can take part in supposedly Christian celebrations. Don't worry about that. There are no People religious police that are going to destroy you because you went and had mass or celebrated a saint day. Again I ask, do you know what Polytheism means?Well, while I think it ingenuine to say that Christians "stole" various things (unless we have good proof of their motivations), the simple fact is that religions are constantly borrowing from one another. In the past and today. So I think it's perfectly legitimate for Pagans to claim these symbols for new uses today. Why not? However, we should be honest about where they come from. (And it's not wrong to point out where Christian symbols come from, either... so long as we're honest and we don't start bickering about who stole what.... )

----

Some sites regarding the shamrock, at least:
http://www.vincentpeters.nl/triskelle/history/saintpatrickshamrock.php?index=060.040.010.010
On an other occasion Saint Patrick used the shamrock, the three-leafed-clover also known as seamroy, to explain the Holy Trinity. The shamrock, which shows a close resemblance with the tri-spiral and the Trinity Knot, was in pre-Christian times already a sacred plant and associated with the Triple Goddess and the rebirth of spring. For the fact-freaks: the original shamrock of Ireland was the White Clover, and for the real fact-freaks: Trifolium repens forma minus, family Leguminosae.

Still today the magic of the number three is vivid and the examples of concepts which are complete in threefold are plenty: crown - mother - Virgo, love - courage - wit, faith - hope - charity. And of course friendship - loyalty - love as fused together in the Claddagh ring.

A nice and interesting touch is that the three-leafed-clover was a sacred symbol in Persia also and the Persians called it shamrakh. Just an other historic coincident?The Chicago Public Library- http://www.chipublib.org/shamrock/stpatscelebrate.html
He used his familiarity with the culture to introduce Christianity to the Irish. Rather than attacking paganism, he used pagan symbols to win converts. It is said that he used the three-leafed shamrock, the traditional pagan symbol of spring, to explain the concept of the Trinity; hence its strong association with his day and name. From a Christian magazine- http://www.christianitymagazine.co.uk/engine.cfm?i=92&id=437&arch=1
St. Patrick, the fifth century Bishop of Ireland, took the shamrock (three-leaf-clover) away from the pagan Celts and claimed it as a Christian symbol. It was the favourite occult symbol of the pagan Celts and Druids, but Patrick decided to use it redemptively to illustrate the doctrine of the Trinity.

His plan was so successful that in a short period of time all Ireland was being taught this essential Christian doctrine, with the shamrock becoming its chief symbol. The result was that the pagans could no longer use the shamrock as a symbol of their beliefs. The same site also makes a very good point (especially in light of claims that Christians "stole" X symbols/traditions from earlier religions):
However, to denounce a Christian tradition or practice as rooted in paganism simply because a similar practice appears in ancient pagan rituals is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bath water.
....
Christianity is the ‘new kid on the block’ as far as belief systems go, so almost anything we use to remember Christ has probably been used by older religions first, including the days of the week. John Ankerberg writes: ‘We would be hard-pressed to find a day to celebrate that did not have pagan roots. Every day of our week, indeed our entire calendar is pagan!’ Pagans would do well to remember that, too. Heck, neo-Pagans are the new kids on the block now. We should recognize that syncretism is a completely legitimate method of building a religion, and that we just look petty when we play the blame-game, when we try to claim that Christianity's use of a symbol is less legitimate than our own...

----

And it doesn't matter, really, if Irish pagans were voluntarily absorbed into Christianity or at point-of-sword (either way, they're long dead).... the point is that a good body of knowledge disappeared at that time. What survived, survived through Irish Christians. The stories that we tell of the old heroes were written down by Christian monks. But what survived was also selective. Personally, I like to take a moment and remember that. Why NOT pause to remember, on a day that is *supposed* to be a celebration of religious victory, to remember what was also lost? Forcibly or voluntarily, it's still a shame.

----

On another note, I find it interesting to learn of all the serpent-mythos tied to this time of year (near the Spring Equinox) in various cultures....

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2810/velykos.html
Breaking eggs re-enacts the breakage of the cosmic egg, from which the snake, called 'gyvate,' comes to grant life an fertility. The zaltys, the sacred zigzagged garden snake of the Lithuanians, also wakes from hibernation at this time.http://www.geocities.com/annafranklin1/ostara.html (link seems broken--site under construction)
...The egg is another obvious fertility symbol, betokening burgeoning life. In several mythologies, a ‘World Egg’ is laid by the Goddess and split open by the sun God. In Hindu tradition, the divine bird laid the cosmic egg on the primordial waters and from it sprang Brahma and the two halves formed heaven and earth. The cosmic tree is sometimes depicted as growing out of an egg floating on the waters of chaos. In Egyptian legend the Nile Goose laid the cosmic egg from which Ra, the sun, sprang. In China the yolk was the sky and the white the earth. The egg is also an emblem of resurrection and the initiate or ‘twice born’, since its laying is one birth, its hatching another.

The egg is closely associated with the serpent, another important springtime emblem. One Egyptian legend says that Kneph, the serpent, produced the egg from his mouth. Orphism, holding the egg to be the mystery of life, creation and resurrection, often depicted the egg surrounded by Ouroboros, the circular serpent with its tail in its mouth. The Druids called the cosmic egg the ‘egg of the serpent’.

The symbolism of the snake is complex. It can be male and phallic or female, representing the power of water- sinuous streams, rivers and healing wells. On one hand it represents the underworld and the powers of night and winter that the sun god must overcome [Bel is sometimes shown with a serpent or dragon, as are Apollo, Pythios and Helios]. On the other hand it symbolises regeneration and the sloughing off of winter; the snake sheds its old skin and emerges renewed and ‘reborn’....http://www.sonahhr.com/sonahhr/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.history&chapter=1 ---this site is particularly inventive, and has NO footnotes whatsoever, but it is interesting, nonetheless...

Just some thoughts.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[David19]

I don't know much about Irish history, but what is bad about St. Patrick?, the only thing i know is that he brought Christianity to Ireland (which isn't 'evil' since things change, the universe and life move on, etc), plus lots of religion's have borrowed (or stolen) from others, Christianity took from pagan religion's (and Judaism, obvously), not to mention a lot of modern pagan's take from Christianity and Judaism (the Tarot cards, i think, were created by Christian's or possibly Jews, and a lot of pagan's use the kabbalah (a Jewish mystical tradition)).

[WokeUpDead]

Geez, WUD. What a killjoy!
Would you expect anything else from me? Sometimes I think being a cop would almost be worth it just to ruin the fun for everybody.

[Jenne]

Would you expect anything else from me? Sometimes I think being a cop would almost be worth it just to ruin the fun for everybody.

That sounds way bitter dude. Wait til you've passed 50 to get that crotchety!

[WokeUpDead]

That sounds way bitter dude. Wait til you've passed 50 to get that crotchety!
My dad is like 30 years older than his real age. Why can't I be?

[Jenne]

My dad is like 30 years older than his real age. Why can't I be?

You're too cute to be old before your time!

Give it up. It doesn't suit you.

Not that happy-go-lucky-ducky is you either, lmfao.

[WokeUpDead]

I was raised with too much positivity and all that bullshit. Naturally I turned out the other way.

[Philosophia]

I won't be celebrating it, not because of any religious stuff but because I don't drink alcohol and am still getting over a flu (which will flare back up if I go to a pub). I might wear a St. Patrick hat, badge, etc. just to embarress my family and friends (I do it so well).
But, hey, if you want to celebrate it...go for it! Have fun, sing, yell, etc.!

[Meabh23]

Dhawa, what you quoted about the shamrock is good, but it still sounds like a modern interpretation. The shamrock doesn't even appear to have any significance before the 1600's. (Much like many of the stories dealing with St Patrick's "life".) I am unaware that the Druids or the old Celts bothered to impute it with any meaning we would recognise today. As to the Triple Goddess, that is a modern idea.

[Cain]

Why not? Everyone else who has been in a 300 mile radius of people who have worn green/can say "Ireland"/drink Guinness do...

[Stormwt]

St Andrews Day - the Scots go to the pub and get pissed.
St Davids Day - the Welsh go to the pub and get pissed and sing a lot while wearing a daffodil.
St George's Day - the English, if we remember it at all, wonder why we don't celebrate our Saint like the others do. Those that do remember, hang a flag up and get called racist! (yes, that does really happen)

yeah!


It is my understanding that in Ireland, St. Patrick’s Day is not celebrated as it is in America. There, it is a Christian holiday, a holy day, where St. Patrick, along with his efforts to convert the island to Christianity, are revered and honored.

lol! Sorry but I'm irish (well my parents are) and, living in england its not far to go back to Ireland. St Patrick's day religious? Maybe for the few but mostly its just one gigantic piss-up! Even my Nan doesn't have a clue and she's very religious.
I'm sorry, but I celebrate because I'm proud to be Irish. It doesn't matter what the origins of the day are - now it stands for Irish pride and having a bloody good time! Everything evolves and making a stand against what it used to mean won't turn back time.

I agree that you should remember - but also remember that it has other importance now.

I'll be having my gammon and cabbage and going out for a good craic! :cheers:


x x x

p.s - did you know a 23ft long fossilised snake was found in Ireland a couple of years ago?

[David19]

yeah!



lol! Sorry but I'm irish (well my parents are) and, living in england its not far to go back to Ireland. St Patrick's day religious? Maybe for the few but mostly its just one gigantic piss-up! Even my Nan doesn't have a clue and she's very religious.
I'm sorry, but I celebrate because I'm proud to be Irish. It doesn't matter what the origins of the day are - now it stands for Irish pride and having a bloody good time! Everything evolves and making a stand against what it used to mean won't turn back time.

I agree that you should remember - but also remember that it has other importance now.

I'll be having my gammon and cabbage and going out for a good craic! :cheers:


x x x

p.s - did you know a 23ft long fossilised snake was found in Ireland a couple of years ago?

I agree with you, as my dad is Irish and his whole family is Catholic, but i don't think Christianity comes into St. Patrick's day at all, it's just one excuse to get drunk, which is probably the main reason anyone celebrates it (even in America, since i know that New York has huge St. Patrick day celebrations, and i doubt everyone is Irish or even Catholic).

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

St. Patrick was evil? How do you figure? He brought the word of God to the Irish followers of the old gods, doing for them the greatest kindness he could imagine, even though it was them who had made him a slave in his youth?

St. Patrick didn't convert them at swordpoint and destroy their holy sites like the Romans did on the Isle of Mona. He did not slaughter those who would not believe. What exactly was it that St. Patrick did that was so evil?

Just because we don't follow his religion or agree with St. Patrick, does not make him evil.


If I didn't I would have to advoid my family on Friday. I don't have a problem with it really. Yes Patrick was evil and all, but how many people today really think about the saint on March 17. Like Mardi Gras the whole focus has changed (well not really for Mardi Gras).

[Dawa Lhamo]

Dhawa, what you quoted about the shamrock is good, but it still sounds like a modern interpretation. The shamrock doesn't even appear to have any significance before the 1600's. (Much like many of the stories dealing with St Patrick's "life".) I am unaware that the Druids or the old Celts bothered to impute it with any meaning we would recognise today. As to the Triple Goddess, that is a modern idea.The first link/quote is definitely a modern (and unscholarly) interpretation. The second two appear to be somewhat scholarly (one coming from a library, the other from a Christian magazine), yet what you say may be true. It is so difficult, when we're dealing with the anthropology of our own cultural ancestors, to bracket ourselves and our modern context completely out. Thankfully we're getting better at it. ^_^

True or not, the idea that Patrick took pre-existing symbols and gave them new Christian meaning is *very* widespread, among Christians, Pagans, and apparently even some academics. My point (in posting the quotes and links) wasn't that it's necessarily true, but that it's widely-believed, so perceived insult towards Christian cultural ancestors may be less than intentional. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Astara Seague]

I see no problem with celebrating , its a fun holiday, and not much different then any other non pagan holiday

[David19]

St. Patrick was evil? How do you figure? He brought the word of God to the Irish followers of the old gods, doing for them the greatest kindness he could imagine, even though it was them who had made him a slave in his youth?

St. Patrick didn't convert them at swordpoint and destroy their holy sites like the Romans did on the Isle of Mona. He did not slaughter those who would not believe. What exactly was it that St. Patrick did that was so evil?

Just because we don't follow his religion or agree with St. Patrick, does not make him evil.

I agree with you, since i've noticed a lot of pagans do seem to call anyone Christian 'evil', just 'cause St. Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, doesn't make him bad or the religion, it's just change, i really doubt St. Patrick could have converted the whole country if they didn't want to become Christian (or Catholic).

I don't know much about the history of St. Patrick, but if it's true that he was enslaved by the same people that converted, i'd say that he's got courage and strength as it shows he can forgive people, a lot of modern pagans seem to believe that in 'pagan' times, there was one gigantic 'pagan' religion, and everyone got on until the 'big bad' Christian's came, which wasn't true.

Anyway, i think i might have gone slightly off topic :).

[Auroro]

I'm strictly against St. Patrick's day and all of it's representation. You won't sway me from that.

[DandelionDame]

St. Patrick was evil? How do you figure? He brought the word of God to the Irish followers of the old gods, doing for them the greatest kindness he could imagine, even though it was them who had made him a slave in his youth?

St. Patrick didn't convert them at swordpoint and destroy their holy sites like the Romans did on the Isle of Mona. He did not slaughter those who would not believe. What exactly was it that St. Patrick did that was so evil?

Just because we don't follow his religion or agree with St. Patrick, does not make him evil.

Well-said! Couldn't have worded it better myself.

A few years ago, I talked to a Wiccan woman who was pretty cool and she told me about the "Snake=Pagan" theory, and she said she honored her Pagan ancestors "solemnly" on St. Patrick's Day. For a couple of years I felt all weird and conflicted on March 17, as I've almost always thought of it as a damn fun day where the Irish and Irish-Americans are celebrated like crazy, and now it felt like I had this burdensome obligation to be all serious and sour-pussed about it. Well, that felt so unnatural that the damn fun day won out, thank the stars! I think it was this thread that skilly-nilly had a post about "Irish moments" on St. Patrick's Day that pushed me back over the edge to where I am now.

For all of the talk many Pagans (I don't have anyone specific in mind here) do about there not being any black and white, just shades of grey, in the world, I'm frankly pretty surprised at how black and white some of these same Pagans approach St. Patrick. It's too bad.

[dragoncrone]

I haven't visited every entry in this thread, so if this has already been covered - sorry :hahugh:

In 1848 there were numerous Irish Aid Societies in New York, which decided to combine their individual events into one St. Patricks Day parade. After the Civil War the parade got a bit more assertive, and became a mixture of Irish celebration and a show of force letting everyone know just how many 'sons of Erin' there were in the city, ready to take on all comers.
There were quite a few details in the movie 'Gangs of New York' that, while they might not have portrayed the Irish as exactly fine upstanding citizens, were very accurate.

I had an Irish uncle who used to let me stay up late, listen to scary radio shows, and eat radish-and-butter sandwiches washed down with beer.
Here's to you, Jack Corcoran! :cheers:

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well-said! Couldn't have worded it better myself.

A few years ago, I talked to a Wiccan woman who was pretty cool and she told me about the "Snake=Pagan" theory, and she said she honored her Pagan ancestors "solemnly" on St. Patrick's Day. For a couple of years I felt all weird and conflicted on March 17, as I've almost always thought of it as a damn fun day where the Irish and Irish-Americans are celebrated like crazy, and now it felt like I had this burdensome obligation to be all serious and sour-pussed about it. Well, that felt so unnatural that the damn fun day won out, thank the stars! I think it was this thread that skilly-nilly had a post about "Irish moments" on St. Patrick's Day that pushed me back over the edge to where I am now.

For all of the talk many Pagans (I don't have anyone specific in mind here) do about there not being any black and white, just shades of grey, in the world, I'm frankly pretty surprised at how black and white some of these same Pagans approach St. Patrick. It's too bad.
lol Apparently that woman has never been to an Irish wake! ^_^ Solemn indeed. Ha!

[Jenne]

*getting drunk on St. Paddy's and no one can stop me!*

So there.

Heh.

*in a mood*

[Alaiyo]

Don't really need a reason to get stupidly drunk but then, that is what holidays are for-at least in the US.
St. Patrick's Day, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, Valentine's Day, New Year's, Halloween, Devil's Night, Sweetest Day, Mother's Day, Memorial Day...

[WokeUpDead]

*getting drunk on St. Paddy's and no one can stop me!*

I can. I'm Mr. Buzzkill.

[Stormwt]

Yay! I'm at work and its taking all my will power not to break out the rum at my desk!!

Happy paddy's day everyone!!!

:boquet: :fpipesmok :abanana: :abanana: :fpartyfav

[LostSheep]

What is this "Christian holiday" of which you speak? Maybe people ought to lighten up and realise that St Patrick has about as much to do with St Paddy's day as Christ has with Christmas. They both exist just as an excuse to http://tcwozere.co.uk/smileys/drinker-glass.gif:drinking: .

[Gwenhwyfar]

Maybe for us its an excuse to get drunk, but the fact of the matter is thats not why alot of christians celebrate it, getting drunk is just a bonus. It is about religion for some. I dont celebrate St. Patricks.

also, going to work today is going to be interesting...I know Im going to get pinched for not wearing green, by like everyone....I kind of look forward to pinching a few of em back, weather their sporting green or not. :)

[WokeUpDead]

What is this "Christian holiday" of which you speak? Maybe people ought to lighten up and realise that St Patrick has about as much to do with St Paddy's day as Christ has with Christmas. They both exist just as an excuse to http://tcwozere.co.uk/smileys/drinker-glass.gif:drinking: .
That's exactly why I don't like them.

[Felidae]

I heard somewhere that St. Patrick drove the "snakes" out of Ireland.

Pagans are the "snakes".

So my answer is no.

[David19]

Happy St. Patrick's day, hope everyone has a good one (enjoy the drink :)).

[DandelionDame]

You too, David19 (if you're celebrating)!

[Stormwt]

I heard somewhere that St. Patrick drove the "snakes" out of Ireland.

Pagans are the "snakes".

So my answer is no.

Actually - there really are no snakes that are native to Ireland. I posted earlier about there having been a HUUUUUGE fossilized snake found when they were excavating somewhere in Ireland - thats why its such a big deal - There are no native Irish snakes.

[Hærfest Leah]

Haven't read thru this thread in a long time.

I don't need a specific day to set aside for me to celebrate the Irish in my ancestry, if it matters to someone at all they'll celebrate it as often as they want & not just one day a year. It's just another day to get pissed on and thats all it's good for.

[DandelionDame]

Actually - there really are no snakes that are native to Ireland. I posted earlier about there having been a HUUUUUGE fossilized snake found when they were excavating somewhere in Ireland - thats why its such a big deal - There are no native Irish snakes.

Stormwt, do you happen to have a link? I Googled and couldn't find anything, and I find this reeeeally interesting. Help me! :)

[Alaiyo]

Is that why people drink on St. Patrick's Day-because he allegedly drove the snakes out of Ireland?

(kidding)

[Meabh23]

What is this "Christian holiday" of which you speak? Maybe people ought to lighten up and realise that St Patrick has about as much to do with St Paddy's day as Christ has with Christmas. They both exist just as an excuse to http://tcwozere.co.uk/smileys/drinker-glass.gif:drinking: .

Actually St Patricks was only made into a modern Irish nationalist celebration in the past hundread years or so. But to try and simplify what the day means to Irish people as whole would be pointless. Sure, you americans can blather on about snakes and all that, but did you ever think about what the day means to Irish people? (Or for better yet, what this past Monday meant for Irish people, since it was the 90th anniversary of the Easter Uprising?)

So all you people can be smug in your stereotypes of Irish culture all you want.

[Tadrith]

Despite being a goodly part Irish, I do not celebrate it. I am not against people who do, but I will lecture them on St-Patrick's history!

He was a Culdee Druid (a christian highly influenced by local beliefs). Some say he did this so he could help coerce the pagans into worshipping Christian values, whereas others see HIM as the one influenced by paganism and, to help settle a score with his inner demons, tried to remove paganism in any way he could.

And then he went to Ireland and did all that mumbo jumbo bullcrap and "removed" all the pagans (while pure conjecture, it does seem to follow suit that if you refuse to join the wonderful new wave of christianity, you should feel the absolute right for the christian goons to take your life! It is a great way to coerce agreements!).

Frankly, if you need a reason to drink large volumes of wobbly pops, you should be thoroughly examined by your doctor!

:cheers:

Tad

[Dawa Lhamo]

Actually St Patricks was only made into a modern Irish nationalist celebration in the past hundread years or so. But to try and simplify what the day means to Irish people as whole would be pointless. Sure, you americans can blather on about snakes and all that, but did you ever think about what the day means to Irish people? (Or for better yet, what this past Monday meant for Irish people, since it was the 90th anniversary of the Easter Uprising?)

So all you people can be smug in your stereotypes of Irish culture all you want.Woah there.

Considering the history of the Irish in America, the fact that there's a holiday like St. Patrick's that *attempts* to celebrate Irishness is an amazing thing.

Most of the Irish came over around the Potato Famine, which was roughly the same time as our Civil War. Men of soldiering-age were signed up for the army as soon as they got off the boat. The Irish brigades were given some of the worst missions and suffered extreme casualties.

Many of the Irish were conscripted to work in labour teams, such as building railroads. In point of fact, the Irish were considered lower than the black slaves and were sent to do the most dangerous and demeaning jobs. The reasoning? Slaves cost money, while the "Paddies" were free... much more easily replaced.

I wonder if the Irish-Americans consider themselves LESS Irish because their great-grandparents fled famine and oppression only to face terrible hardship here in America. Because they don't live in Ireland. Should we tell them that they conceive Irish culture incorrectly? That their own variation of Irish culture is invalid... or, in fact, a poor stereotype?

St. Patrick's Day as celebrated in America isn't REALLY about the Irish people in Ireland. It's not REALLY about St. Patrick. It's about the Irish contribution to American culture. It's about how Irish-Americans view themselves.

I understand the frustration of exploitation of other people's cultures. I understand that Americans in particular are rather... ignorant in their understanding.

However, in America, everyone is the descendant of an immigrant. We ALL (yes, even American Indians) came from somewhere else at some point in our family lines. So we have a confused identity, oftentimes, that people in Europe whose families have been European for millenia cannot understand.

I, for one, think it amazing the fact that Irishness and Celtic ancestry is CELEBRATED here... COVETED, even.... And maybe it's because they're white-skinned, but the Irish have made the most amazing turn-around in American society... from being more worthless than slaves to being celebrated and having a holiday that virtually everyone observes in some way. If it's stereotypical, it's at least more than any other oppressed people in this country has gotten. It's a start, and a darned fine one.

[Meabh23]

Dhawa,

Just as my own roots have been "shangri-laized" and many of my own people have contributed to that, many American Irish have contributed the stereotyipical and denigrating caricatures of Irish culture and history. I was merely pointing this out. There are deeper aspects that are often ignored. There are complexities that are often glossed over. (Such as the Language issue, etc.)

[Dawa Lhamo]

Dhawa,

Just as my own roots have been "shangri-laized" and many of my own people have contributed to that, many American Irish have contributed the stereotyipical and denigrating caricatures of Irish culture and history. I was merely pointing this out. There are deeper aspects that are often ignored. There are complexities that are often glossed over. (Such as the Language issue, etc.)Well, I think you were a bit more than merely pointing it out ("...you Americans can blather on..." and "...all you people can be smug..."), but I'll accept that that was your intention. There was a definite tone of frustration from your post, but most people won't listen to *why* you're frustrated if you're insulting them.

There's a wide variety of ways that people celebrate St. Patrick's day here and though they may be the most loud and obnoxious group, to paint *all* Americans with the same brush as those who play into the stereotypes and drink green beer... that's a false generalisation, too.

The loss and marginalization of traditions is terrible, I agree. And part of that here, perhaps is DUE to the hardships that the American Irish faced, and how the children would distance themselves from the cultural aspects which marked them as different, simply in hopes of fitting in and not facing the kind of contempt that their parents got. (Which is actually a common thing that happens with 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations from immigrants... it's sad that they've lost touch with their roots, but it's not uncommon)....

But there are also those who do try to reconnect, both with their ancestors' struggles in coming here, but also with their roots in now-foreign lands. And their attempts may be clumsy, and sometimes commercialized, they are most often sincere. And they are trying to educate others, as well. All the Irish folk musicians I know also teach, all the Gaelic speakers I know encourage others to study it, all the Irish folk dancers I know teach others once they've progressed enough.... There are people who seek to learn the complexities, and who try to change other people's perceptions of the culture...

Telling such people that they're *all* smug and blathering isn't going to fix the problem. It's just going to hurt and offend them. (And those who don't care about the culture anyway aren't going to suddenly care because you insult them.)

I know it's hard when you're overwhelmed and frustrated, but honestly, we're not all the same either. It's not an "us vs. them" issue. And treating it like an "us vs. them" problem will only create further division and turn people away.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[NiftyWings]

I'm part Irish, but don't celebrate St Pat's. I'll usually wear something green, just to avoid getting pinched.

[AussiePagan]

I celebreate it because its like oktoberfest and a good excuse to get drunk with your mates :cheers:

[Meabh23]

Well, I think you were a bit more than merely pointing it out ("...you Americans can blather on..." and "...all you people can be smug..."), but I'll accept that that was your intention. There was a definite tone of frustration from your post, but most people won't listen to *why* you're frustrated if you're insulting them.

There's a wide variety of ways that people celebrate St. Patrick's day here and though they may be the most loud and obnoxious group, to paint *all* Americans with the same brush as those who play into the stereotypes and drink green beer... that's a false generalisation, too.

The loss and marginalization of traditions is terrible, I agree. And part of that here, perhaps is DUE to the hardships that the American Irish faced, and how the children would distance themselves from the cultural aspects which marked them as different, simply in hopes of fitting in and not facing the kind of contempt that their parents got. (Which is actually a common thing that happens with 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations from immigrants... it's sad that they've lost touch with their roots, but it's not uncommon)....

But there are also those who do try to reconnect, both with their ancestors' struggles in coming here, but also with their roots in now-foreign lands. And their attempts may be clumsy, and sometimes commercialized, they are most often sincere. And they are trying to educate others, as well. All the Irish folk musicians I know also teach, all the Gaelic speakers I know encourage others to study it, all the Irish folk dancers I know teach others once they've progressed enough.... There are people who seek to learn the complexities, and who try to change other people's perceptions of the culture...

Telling such people that they're *all* smug and blathering isn't going to fix the problem. It's just going to hurt and offend them. (And those who don't care about the culture anyway aren't going to suddenly care because you insult them.)

I know it's hard when you're overwhelmed and frustrated, but honestly, we're not all the same either. It's not an "us vs. them" issue. And treating it like an "us vs. them" problem will only create further division and turn people away.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

I know you are not all the same. In fact I learned much about Irish culture from Americans who were steeped in it. It is two sided though. As you may not like the way I put it (Americans blathering on?....perhaps I should have said people but then the four foots would take offense), and I admit it was on the harsh side, sometimes you may wish to visit the idea that "smug" (for lack of a better word) or quaint or "cute" ideas people have towards Irish people and culture are just as insulting and do harm people.

But that is all said and done. I met a leprechaun on St. Patrick's day, btw. (Okay, maybe he wasn't a real one. He was a bit tall, and he was wearing sneakers underneath his green get up.) He spoke Irish in a weird Polish accent and he asked me where he could find some kimchee (a Korean spicy pickled cabbage concoction). Wasn't that weird?

Anyway, all this debate over Irishness and whatnot seems to be getting settled as the culture comes back in its home. The last time I was there, I only had to use English a few times. The rest of the time I was able to speak my horrible attempt at Irish which the locals found amusing seeing as I don't "look the part" so to speak. Laughs were had all around.

[Meabh23]

I celebreate it because its like oktoberfest and a good excuse to get drunk with your mates :cheers:

There is no other reason that could be better!:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: