Is Wicca the largest Pagan path?

[Hærfest Leah]

On religioustollerance.org it says that Wicca will be the 3rd largest religion after christianity and Judaism (sp?) by I think 2012 was the date. So this bring me to my poll, is Wicca the largest path among pagans, I rarely even see books or web sites for all the other Pagan paths.

[Aine of the Fae]

I think Wicca may be the most well known Pagan path, however there are so many pagan paths that to say it is the largest is a joke. Seriously, Buddhism is, by definition, a Pagan path, and it is definitely larger than Wicca.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I think Wicca may be the most well known Pagan path, however there are so many pagan paths that to say it is the largest is a joke. Seriously, Buddhism is, by definition, a Pagan path, and it is definitely larger than Wicca.
Buddhism does not self-identify as a pagan path, therefore I wouldn't include it in the list.

Wicca may very well be the largest pagan path. At the very least, it's the one that comes out the largest whenever anyone does a survey of religious affiliation. It's impossible to know for sure, however.

[Hærfest Leah]

I think Wicca may be the most well known Pagan path, however there are so many pagan paths that to say it is the largest is a joke. Seriously, Buddhism is, by definition, a Pagan path, and it is definitely larger than Wicca.

I'm not counting Buddhism because from all the Buddhists I've asked online they say Buddhism isn't a religion its a philosophy. And I never see Buddhism listed as an earth, occult or pagan religion. (although I think it is one also)

[Aine of the Fae]

I'm using the definition that any religion that is not Jewish, Christian or Islamic is pagan :D

If you exclude Buddhism? I'd still say that Wicca probably isn't the largest. Eclectic whatever is.

[Hærfest Leah]

I'm using the definition that any religion that is not Jewish, Christian or Islamic is pagan :D

If you exclude Buddhism? I'd still say that Wicca probably isn't the largest. Eclectic whatever is.

Thats what I said by definition but they dont go by that definition so thats why its not counted in this poll. Eclectic Wicca? thats mainly what I'm talking about or just all of Wicca in general.:)

[Aine of the Fae]

Thats what I said by definition but they dont go by that definition so thats why its not counted in this poll. Eclectic Wicca? thats mainly what I'm talking about or just all of Wicca in general.:)

Not Eclectic Wicca. Eclectic Paganism. A good majority of the people on this board are not wiccan, but eclectic pagan.

[SacredWithin]

Adherents.com (http://adherents.com/) will tell all.

do you want to know by location (http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/indexWhere.html) or name (http://adherents.com/index.html#GroupNameIndex)?

Wicca (http://adherents.com/Na/Na_647.html#4211)

I'd wish they'd fix up the site a little. There can be a better way to make the site look good, and I don't like the colors. But the site has good info. :)

Here is a chart on the major religions

http://adherents.com/rel_pie.gif

Major religions ranking (http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

Largest Churches/Gatherings (http://adherents.com/adh_rb.html)
I'm done. the rest can be checked out at that site, but they've got a lot of stuff on there.

[Hærfest Leah]

Not Eclectic Wicca. Eclectic Paganism. A good majority of the people on this board are not wiccan, but eclectic pagan.

Oh ok got it. :) cool

[Aine of the Fae]

http://adherents.com/ will tell all. Now some find out.

do you want to know by location (http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/indexWhere.html) or name (http://adherents.com/index.html#GroupNameIndex)?

Wicca (http://adherents.com/Na/Na_647.html#4211)

I'd wish they'd fix up the site a little. There can be a better way to make the site look good, and I don't like the colors. But the site has good info. :)

Here is a chart on the major religions

http://adherents.com/rel_pie.gif

Major religions ranking (http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

Largest Churches/Gatherings (http://adherents.com/adh_rb.html)
I'm done. the rest can be checked out at that site, but they've got a lot of stuff on there.


And based on that chart? Wicca's got a LONG way to go before it gets even close to the top four.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I'm using the definition that any religion that is not Jewish, Christian or Islamic is pagan :D
Yes, but try telling a Buddhist that he's a pagan (other than the ones on this forum, of course).


If you exclude Buddhism? I'd still say that Wicca probably isn't the largest. Eclectic whatever is.
Can you really count Eclectic Paganism as a single path? That's like counting "Agnostic" as a path.

[Hærfest Leah]

Yes, but try telling a Buddhist that he's a pagan (other than the ones on this forum, of course).


Can you really count Eclectic Paganism as a single path? That's like counting "Agnostic" as a path.


Thats what I was thinking, and can you count non-religious as one of the top 4 religions. If ther not in a religion they don't count so that would put Buddhism as #3 not #4.

[Aine of the Fae]

Atheism/Agnosticism is still a religious belief.

[DebLipp]

Wicca is the largest Neopagan religion. If you define Pagan broadly and accurately, it includes such religions as Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shinto. But within the Neopagan movements, whose members generally refer to themselves as "Pagan," not the more unweildly "Neopagan," Wicca is definitely the largest.

This has been fairly well studied by people using fairly objective measurements. The tiny number of people who post on an Internet site cannot be considered representative, both because of the number and, much more importantly, because the nature of the site weights the sample.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Atheism/Agnosticism is still a religious belief.
But not a singular religious belief.

[Athena-Nadine]

Atheism/Agnosticism is still a religious belief.
I'm going to nit pick a bit now. ;)

Those two really shouldn't be separated with a slash; they are completely different schools of thought. One believes there is no god/divinity/higher power/etc., and the other believes there is but that humans don't have the ability to grasp it, classify it, or explain it.

Aine, I'm sure you already know that. :) I only mention it because I have seen plenty of people confuse the two.

[DebLipp]

I looked at the Adherent.com data, it seems very out of date and unreliable. I like this one better: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

[Hærfest Leah]

I'm going to nit pick a bit now. ;)

Those two really shouldn't be separated with a slash; they are completely different schools of thought. One believes there is no god/divinity/higher power/etc., and the other believes there is but that humans don't have the ability to grasp it, classify it, or explain it.

Aine, I'm sure you already know that. :) I only mention it because I have seen plenty of people confuse the two.

I say don't worry about nit picking. Religion is a very confusing thing. So it should be
Atheism &/ or Agnosticism. I always knew they were separate things but never knew the difference. Thanks.

[Aine of the Fae]

I'm going to nit pick a bit now. ;)

Those two really shouldn't be separated with a slash; they are completely different schools of thought. One believes there is no god/divinity/higher power/etc., and the other believes there is but that humans don't have the ability to grasp it, classify it, or explain it.

Aine, I'm sure you already know that. :) I only mention it because I have seen plenty of people confuse the two.

:lol: Yes I knew that! Hubby is agnostic, step-dad is atheist, I'm insane.... However you are more likely to see an agnostic take the side of an atheist than a fundamentalist Christian... at least in my experience... shoot I'm more likely to take the side of an atheist than a fundamentalist Christian... and I'm a Christian!!!!

[Hærfest Leah]

I looked at the Adherent.com data, it seems very out of date and unreliable. I like this one better: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Damn their chart doesnt even list Paganism just Wicca what are we other? <sticking tongue out at site>

[DebLipp]

Damn their chart doesnt even list Paganism just Wicca what are we other? <sticking tongue out at site>

Yeah, other. Too small to count. The only way to count is to break out the specific religions—Druidism, Asatru, Celtic Reconstruction, Greek Reconstruction, Eclectic Egypto-Pagan, etc. And those numbers are small.

Added: Here's a link that counts other Pagans: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr3.htm

[Aine of the Fae]

Yeah, other. Too small to count. The only way to count is to break out the specific religions—Druidism, Asatru, Celtic Reconstruction, Greek Reconstruction, Eclectic Egypto-Pagan, etc. And those numbers are small.


Yeah.. break them up and you get into .000001 percent and such :lol:

[Aine of the Fae]

My question is this:

Looking at those numbers, how many people are that religion in name only, not in practice? How many listed as Wiccan will actually stay Wiccan? How many are just Wiccan because it's the cool thing to be at the moment?

[Athena-Nadine]

:lol: Yes I knew that! Hubby is agnostic, step-dad is atheist, I'm insane.... However you are more likely to see an agnostic take the side of an atheist than a fundamentalist Christian... at least in my experience... shoot I'm more likely to take the side of an atheist than a fundamentalist Christian... and I'm a Christian!!!!
*...laughs...* Very true. I was an Hellene as a child, an agnostic and then an atheist as a teenager and in my early 20s, then back to agnostic and now an Hellene again.

I'm known to take the side of an agnostic or atheist over a fanatic of any religion, though, I've known some fanatical aitheists as well. :lol:

It's a strange thing. While I am considered Pagan (I am having a more and more difficult time identifying with the term since the meaning it is increasingly taking on has nothing to do with me or my religion), I am finding that I often have an easier time relating to Christians, though there are fundamental differences in our beliefs, than to the majority of the Pagan community.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Looking at those numbers, how many people are that religion in name only, not in practice? How many listed as Wiccan will actually stay Wiccan? How many are just Wiccan because it's the cool thing to be at the moment?
How many people listed as Christians only call themselves that because they were raised Christian and haven't set foot in a church or thought about Jesus for years?

[Aine of the Fae]

*...laughs...* Very true. I was an Hellene as a child, an agnostic and then an atheist as a teenager and in my early 20s, then back to agnostic and now an Hellene again.

I'm known to take the side of an agnostic or atheist over a fanatic of any religion, though, I've known some fanatical aitheists as well. :lol:

It's a strange thing. While I am considered Pagan (I am having a more and more difficult time identifying with the term since the meaning it is increasingly taking on has nothing to do with me or my religion), I am finding that I often have an easier time relating to Christians, though there are fundamental differences in our beliefs, than to the majority of the Pagan community.

In my experience (gods I hate that phrase... but gotta use it...) I find that those who self-identify as simply pagan have no real solid idea of what their religion is. Once they find their path, they tend to self-identify as something other than pagan, wiccan, hellenic, asatru or whatever.

[Athena-Nadine]

My question is this:

Looking at those numbers, how many people are that religion in name only, not in practice? How many listed as Wiccan will actually stay Wiccan? How many are just Wiccan because it's the cool thing to be at the moment?
*...nods...* I think there are probably just as large a percentage of people calling themselves Wiccan, who either have no idea what the religion is about, who don't practice, or both, as there are Christians just identifying with the term (especially in the US) with little to no idea of what it means to be Christian.

[Aine of the Fae]

How many people listed as Christians only call themselves that because they were raised Christian and haven't set foot in a church or thought about Jesus for years?

Exactly my point. But *shrugs* if that's what they want to call themselves.... oh well...

I still haven't seen any evidence that Wicca is really big enough to notch itself up their with the bigger religions.

[Aine of the Fae]

*...nods...* I think there are probably just as large a percentage of people calling themselves Wiccan, who either have no idea what the religion is about, who don't practice, or both, as there are Christians just identifying with the term (especially in the US) with little to no idea of what it means to be Christian.

Like the teenager who calls herself wiccan because she has no idea that there is another way to describe her religion.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I still haven't seen any evidence that Wicca is really big enough to notch itself up their with the bigger religions.
It's not, but what's significant is that, if the numbers can be believed, it's the fastest growing religion in the world by a huge margin.

[Athena-Nadine]

Exactly my point. But *shrugs* if that's what they want to call themselves.... oh well...

I still haven't seen any evidence that Wicca is really big enough to notch itself up their with the bigger religions.
It's not. *...shrugs...* It is, however, one of the fastest growing religions in existence at the moment (I read somewhere that Myslim is the fastest growing at the moment, but I don't know if that fact still stands).

[Aine of the Fae]

It's not, but what's significant is that, if the numbers can be believed, it's the fastest growing religion in the world by a huge margin.

There's the key phrase if the numbers can be believed. How reliable are they? How many people are calling themselves Wiccan because they think it's cool? And how many others are calling themselves something else for fear of persecution? When it comes to such a study, I find it really hard to believe that the numbers are in anyway and accurate reflection of reality. Wicca may be growing fast, but so is fundamentalist Christianity.

[Ben Trismegistus]

There's the key phrase if the numbers can be believed. How reliable are they? How many people are calling themselves Wiccan because they think it's cool? And how many others are calling themselves something else for fear of persecution? When it comes to such a study, I find it really hard to believe that the numbers are in anyway and accurate reflection of reality. Wicca may be growing fast, but so is fundamentalist Christianity.
Yes that's my point. It's impossible to know.

This site from Religious Tolerance gives a very intelligent description of the problems faced in trying to count Wiccans/Pagans. It estimates the number of American Wiccans at around 750,000, which I think it probably pretty accurate.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm

[Romani Vixen]

Not Eclectic Wicca. Eclectic Paganism. A good majority of the people on this board are not wiccan, but eclectic pagan.
**waves at the croud**

I'd have to agree with Aine on this one!

[Shanti]

How can any of these charts be even close? I dont know of anyone that was ever counted!!! Many pagans are quiet too!!!
Heck, if you go by family line, I would be christian. How do the chart makers know I am not? I know all lot of people from differant faiths and none have been counted.

[DebLipp]

How can any of these charts be even close? I dont know of anyone that was ever counted!!! Many pagans are quiet too!!!
Heck, if you go by family line, I would be christian. How do the chart makers know I am not? I know all lot of people from differant faiths and none have been counted.

Shanti, Pagans are harder to count than other religious groups, but your question seems rooted in not understanding how census in general works. It's like asking how polls for what candidate is winning can work, because you don't know anyone who has been polled on that. Pollsters are pretty good at selecting small but representative samplings.

Some of the methods people have used for attempting to count Pagan noses:

Figuring out the economics of running an occult store; how many different (not repeat) customers are needed, and then seeing how much occult business an area supports.
Looking at subscription rates for major magazines, like the former Green Egg or The Cauldron.
Comparing those sorts of statistics to general population of a region and extrapolating out.
Comparing various nose counts (festival attendance, magazine subs, self-reporting, book sales) to how a mainstream church might do a nose count. Does a church count total number of people who show up at Christmas as membership, or just regular Sunday attendees (generally, it's the former)?
Having various people who have gathered statistics get together, compare methods, and throw out the high and low figures.


Ronald Hutton gave a very interesting rundown of how he did his estimations in Triumph of the Moon.

Overall, the best rough estimate from all the sources I've seen, and having read over various people's methods of coming up with a figure, is a half-million Neopagans in North America, of which maybe 65–70% are Wiccan.

Twenty years ago, it was more like 125,000 people, of whom 85% were Wiccan.

[Erebus]

You sort of have to define "pagan" first, because under some definitions Hinduism counts. And kicks the crap out of Wicca by an order of magnitude or two.

Even if Hinduism doesn't count, how about Shinto? Taoism? Or does "pagan" only refer to beliefs from Europe and westward? In that case, I'd lay hard cash that there are far more general "pagans" than Wiccans. Nearly everyone starts out as Wiccan on the Western path - not everyone stays there.

[DebLipp]

You sort of have to define "pagan" first, because under some definitions Hinduism counts. And kicks the crap out of Wicca by an order of magnitude or two.

Even if Hinduism doesn't count, how about Shinto? Taoism? Or does "pagan" only refer to beliefs from Europe and westward? In that case, I'd lay hard cash that there are far more general "pagans" than Wiccans. Nearly everyone starts out as Wiccan on the Western path - not everyone stays there.

I covered most of that here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1111813&postcount=14

[Theres]

I covered most of that here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1111813&postcount=14
(how'd you do that? :confused: )

[Toby Stimpson]

Wicca certainly is the fastest growing...but ok, lets give this example...if you have 25 thousand followers...and you gain 10 thousand more...thats a significant increase and so your ratio of growth will be high. But that doesnt mean that your popular or have as many followers as lets say Islam that has a BILLION followers...or Christianity that also has a BILLION followers worldwise...with Hinduism at almost a Buillion as well. I mean really, I personally think we would delude ourselves saying Wicca owuld be the third most popular religion by 2012. Even with the great information that Deblibb just gave us, worldwide Wicca is definatly an insignificant minority in regards to numbers and will be for a long time im afraid to say.

[Ron]

Not Eclectic Wicca. Eclectic Paganism. A good majority of the people on this board are not wiccan, but eclectic pagan. Okay, but if you go out at least in Ottawa, and you take the 95 or 97, in the downtown core area, you WILL see at least one Pentacle (incl. surronding circle -- a tradition symbol of Wicca not Witchcraft, argueably) or one person reading a "Wicca" book. And I do believe that there are more Wiccans than Eclectics.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Wicca certainly is the fastest growing...but ok, lets give this example...if you have 25 thousand followers...and you gain 10 thousand more...thats a significant increase and so your ratio of growth will be high. But that doesnt mean that your popular or have as many followers as lets say Islam that has a BILLION followers...or Christianity that also has a BILLION followers worldwise...with Hinduism at almost a Buillion as well. I mean really, I personally think we would delude ourselves saying Wicca owuld be the third most popular religion by 2012. Even with the great information that Deblibb just gave us, worldwide Wicca is definatly an insignificant minority in regards to numbers and will be for a long time im afraid to say.
Well, I don't know where the theory came from that Wicca would be the third most popular religion by 2012. I know someone mentioned it, but there's no serious logical possibility that that could be the case anytime soon.

And Christianity has about 2 billion follows, Islam about 1.2 billion, and Hinduism about 800 million.

That said, I certainly wouldn't call Wicca an "insignificant minority". For one thing, Wicca has received a lot more public attention in the past ten years than, say, Jainism or Shintoism. And, as has been pointed out, it's growing at a huge rate. That's significant.

[Shanti]

Shanti, Pagans are harder to count than other religious groups, but your question seems rooted in not understanding how census in general works. It's like asking how polls for what candidate is winning can work, because you don't know anyone who has been polled on that. Pollsters are pretty good at selecting small but representative samplings.

Some of the methods people have used for attempting to count Pagan noses:



Figuring out the economics of running an occult store; how many different (not repeat) customers are needed, and then seeing how much occult business an area supports.
Looking at subscription rates for major magazines, like the former Green Egg or The Cauldron.
Comparing those sorts of statistics to general population of a region and extrapolating out.
Comparing various nose counts (festival attendance, magazine subs, self-reporting, book sales) to how a mainstream church might do a nose count. Does a church count total number of people who show up at Christmas as membership, or just regular Sunday attendees (generally, it's the former)?
Having various people who have gathered statistics get together, compare methods, and throw out the high and low figures.
Ronald Hutton gave a very interesting rundown of how he did his estimations in Triumph of the Moon.

Overall, the best rough estimate from all the sources I've seen, and having read over various people's methods of coming up with a figure, is a half-million Neopagans in North America, of which maybe 65–70% are Wiccan.

Twenty years ago, it was more like 125,000 people, of whom 85% were Wiccan. Its not that I done understand how they do it.
I just dont think its very accurate period!
I know pagans that dont go to occult stores and dont buy magazines. A lot depend on making things themselves. and many are not social.
Also a lot of pagans are just poor and dont buy stuff.
I just think accuracy is flawed in polls and census.

[DebLipp]

Its not that I done understand how they do it.
I just dont think its very accurate period!
I know pagans that dont go to occult stores and dont buy magazines. A lot depend on making things themselves. and many are not social.
Also a lot of pagans are just poor and dont buy stuff.
I just think accuracy is flawed in polls and census.

First of all, Pagans who don't go to stores are more or less balanced out by non-Pagans who shop in those stores. Second of all, don't forget that they're comparing the stats about Pagans to how those stats would play out if it was other people. They can compare a local Jewish population to the sales of a local Judaica store, and figure out what percentage of a given population uses the store that caters to it. Sure, there are poor Pagans, but when you estimate a population, you take that into account. No one statistic works by itself. That's why you look at combined results.

[Gede]

MM~
I have always had trouble accepting what statistics say (for reasons previously mentioned) as anything close to the actuality of the situation. The statistics of religioustolerance.org has fathomed their results from a minority of Pagans who have the time, money and transport to attend local and national festivals as well as buying books etc. Personally the majority of Pagans I talk to do not attend festivals, and a lot of them do not buy many books either, so that is flawed. If we decided to go on census records you'd have to take into account people who fear persecution (and believe me there are still people who do!) and those whose parents fill in the forms for them without considering their children's feelings, I'm betting there are a lot of people in that situation. In relation to our numbers (NeoPagans) I'd venture that yes we do number somewhere in the millions, it just seems probable.

Namaste, Gede...

[aluokaloo]

:durrrr: I didn't realize insanity was a valid religion Aine, just kidding, anyways, I have heard reports that paganism and all its many manmy many forms, is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. I personally see it as the fact that its making a major come back. I have a hard time with stats because there are too many in the closet "whatevers" there are so many mixes, matches, mutts, and hybrids and not a single one is the same, so that makes it more difficult. The easier ones to count I think are the ones who stick with a specific faith druid, wiccan, asatru, Odinist, kemetic etc. and of course their are always posers too. The hindus, and buddhists I've met refuse to be labeled as pagan, and while I can see that Hinduism might possibly count, Buddhism I don't think does too much. Besides its that whole lumping thing. They don't want to be lumped together and associated automatically with this or that. Like I used to hear the older punks (I'm talking late twenties to early forties) explain how people use to autoamtically lump them together with skinheads and metal heads vice versa so I can kind of see their point. Since they are seperate movements.

[Erebus]

Wicca is the largest Neopagan religion. If you define Pagan broadly and accurately, it includes such religions as Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shinto. But within the Neopagan movements, whose members generally refer to themselves as "Pagan," not the more unweildly "Neopagan," Wicca is definitely the largest.

This has been fairly well studied by people using fairly objective measurements.

Sorry, Deb, I'm not just going to take your word for it.

[DebLipp]

Sorry, Deb, I'm not just going to take your word for it.

You don't have to apologize to me because I don't take it personally. Do the research yourself; look at the sources. I have information that I believe to be accurate, and I share it. If you don't want it, you can't have any. ;)

[ObsidianShenKa]

…or maybe this shouldn't even matter.

[Fluffmeister]

Am I missing something here? Someone pointed out that Buddhists don't tend to identify themselves as pagans, so Wicca must be the largest Pagan path. What about Hinduism?

This religion accounts for 15% of the world's population, and has a whole pantheon of gods and goddesses. I don't know if the census in the US counts Wicca yet - in the UK, the census office agreed that at the last census (2001), even though there wasn't a separate box for Wicca/Pagan, just an "other", anyone putting "Wicca", "Pagan" or "Druid" on the form would be counted and if we added up to enough people, they'd put a separate category in the next census.

In fact, 390,000 people put "Jedi" as their official religion on the census form - it started off as a joke, and just took off. Sadly, the Jedis outnumbered the pagans!

In the UK census for 2001, we have the following figures:

1. Christian: 71%
2. No religion: 14%
3. Religion not stated: 7.7%
4. Muslim: 3.0%
5. Hindu: 1.0%
6. Jedi Knight: 0.75%
7. Sikh: 0.63%
8. Jewish: 0.5%
9. Buddhist: 0.28%
10. Jehovah's Witness: 0.14%

Pagan comes in at number 14, with 0.059% of the respondents - just 30,569 out of 52,041,920 people.

People defining themselves as "Wicca" came in at number 26, with just 0.014%

Druids came in at a paltry 0.004%, just below Scientology, and just above Satanism :D


Now, obviously these figures are a bit suspect - only 3 people in the whole of the UK put down "Celtic Orthodox" as their religion, despite the fact that there's a thriving Celtic Orthodox church in Glastonbury, which has a congregation of more than 3; and only 0.054% of the population gave their religion as "Church of England", despite the fact that this is the "official" religion of England, of which the Queen is the head. I suspect most CofE people just put "Christian" down instead. And of course, numerous agnostics put down "Christian" as a sort of default religion - the figure of 71% seems astonishingly high for the UK.

However, it does mean that it's now unlikely that pagan will be a separate category in the 2011 census, since there are fewer than 100,000 adherents in the UK.

If you want to take a look at the full set of UK stats, check out Cursuswalker's site - he's a UK pagan and all-round nice bloke (I've met him :D ) and has a site at http://www.cursuswalker.co.uk/

You'll need to click on "2001 census results" then scroll down to the "league tables".

[Ben Trismegistus]

Am I missing something here? Someone pointed out that Buddhists don't tend to identify themselves as pagans, so Wicca must be the largest Pagan path. What about Hinduism?
Hindus also do not self-identify as pagans.

[Fluffmeister]

Hindus also do not self-identify as pagans.

This is true, and I think the problem is we don't have a clear definition of "pagan". It doesn't even have to mean believing in a pantheon of gods/goddesses, of course. However, those who follow the Norse pantheon of gods and goddesses define themselves as heathen/asatru, but would probably (reluctantly) accept the label "pagan" as a generic one. Those who follow the Celtic pantheon tend to define as pagan. Those who follow the Egyptian pantheon define as pagan. Those who follow the Greek pantheon define as pagan.

But those who follow the Hindu pantheon do not define as pagan.

What do *we* mean by the term "pagan"?

[Erebus]

Apparently, anyone who calls him or herself a pagan is a pagan, and nobody else is.

[DebLipp]

Hindus also do not self-identify as pagans.

You keep saying that, and I keep correcting you. Hinduism Today, a magazine with a very wide distribution, has said in several editorials that Hindus should understand that they are Pagan and identify as such, and that their natural allies are us—the Neopagan movement. There are now a significant number of Hindus who do identify as Pagan, although most of the Hindus I know don't have enough mastery of Western cultural trends to know who we (meaning Neopagans) are or what the word Pagan means to us.

However, it's silly to split this hair, we are really, deep-down, interested in ourselves; Neopagans, and that, at any rate, excludes Hindus. :D

[Theres]

In fact, 390,000 people put "Jedi" as their official religion on the census form - it started off as a joke, and just took off. Sadly, the Jedis outnumbered the pagans!

sadly indeed! :goodgrief

[Grey]

Hmm what about the large number of people that are buddhist and in another religion?

[Ben Trismegistus]

You keep saying that, and I keep correcting you. Hinduism Today, a magazine with a very wide distribution, has said in several editorials that Hindus should understand that they are Pagan and identify as such, and that their natural allies are us—the Neopagan movement. There are now a significant number of Hindus who do identify as Pagan, although most of the Hindus I know don't have enough mastery of Western cultural trends to know who we (meaning Neopagans) are or what the word Pagan means to us.
Whatever. ;)

I was trying to go by your definitions, which I've now forgotten: Neopagans, those of us in religions founded within the last 100 years or so (which includes reconstructionist religions), Paleopagans, those ancient pagan religions which are no longer observed in their original forms, and that third group whose name I forget, of extant pagan religions that existed in more or less the same form since their inception (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Yoruba, etc.)

For the purposes of these surveys, we refer only to Neopagans, right?

[Lord_Zevai]

Good questions...

I am technically pagan I suppose.. I hate the word... actually I am technically wiccan... I hate that word too however.. If I hear one more person identify themselves as a witch I think I am going to puke.

What I mean to say... is that well for instance... I have studied both "sides" of the bar, so to speak. I have spent many years in homage to the late great A. Crowley. I have studied everything I could get my grubby little claws on including the entire equinox and all of his other published (as well as some NON-published) works. I studied LaVey (what a joke) and I have done plenty of research into S.L. MacGregor-Mathers. I can safely say I have studied in depth for the O.T.O. ( sure wish I could find a chapterhouse for them) and I have also backpedaled deep into Islamic/jewish Magica going so far as to even transcribe and study works over a couple aeon in age.

Eclectic is the best work to describe my background and beliefs, but wiccan? sure I have studied the greater known paths such as Gardner and Alexandrian, and I am sure much of my studies are considered Satanic or Black, but I cannot agree with any of these terms. Too many people are too quick to throw a label on something as if by doing so it makes it easier to grasp and handle. In my opinion, you cannot be one nor the other but both, to practice true magica one MUST intricately understand both powers and accept them for one does not work magic, the power works through you.

I think I also want to make some other small points in here... What is magic(k) to you? I mean... I am kinda new on this site... damn new. But I have found in my experience that the larger the site the more artsy-fartsy the beliefs are, too many pseudo-christians that cant completely open thier minds but seem to have them stuck halfway shut. I suppose I am asking, is there any older more adpet members here? people with a little understanding and less abracadabra?

[{Tigress}]

Lord Zevai, welcome to MW! You've made some very good points and asked some wonderful questions I'm sure many would like to answer. However, you might want to start a new thread about the things you've mentioned in your post so that we don't detract from the topic of this particular thread, and so people can feel free to respond to your post in full. :)

[DebLipp]

Whatever. ;)

I was trying to go by your definitions, which I've now forgotten: Neopagans, those of us in religions founded within the last 100 years or so (which includes reconstructionist religions), Paleopagans, those ancient pagan religions which are no longer observed in their original forms, and that third group whose name I forget, of extant pagan religions that existed in more or less the same form since their inception (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Yoruba, etc.)

For the purposes of these surveys, we refer only to Neopagans, right?

Whoever thought I'd miss the Cheney avatar?

Just for the record, I stole these definitions from Isaac Bonewits.

Neopagan: Pagan religions founded in the last hundred years or so with a conscious intention to create a new religion or a new form of an old religion.

Paleopagan: Pagan religions of ancient times AND Pagan religions of current times that are intact since ancient times (they never died). Hindus are, by this definition, Paleopagans.

Mesopagans: (I never use this one, but Isaac does) Pagan religions that are a blend of Paleopaganism, Neopaganism, and monotheistic religious forms or cultural values. A good example is Santeria, with its Paleopagan roots blended with Catholicism to create a new (but not really "Neo") religion. Isaac groups Gardnerianism as Mesopagan. Needless to say, I disagree.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

This is true, and I think the problem is we don't have a clear definition of "People". It doesn't even have to mean believing in a pantheon of gods/goddesses, of course. However, those who follow the Norse pantheon of gods and goddesses define themselves as heathen/asatru, but would probably (reluctantly) accept the label "People" as a generic one. Those who follow the Celtic pantheon tend to define as People. Those who follow the Egyptian pantheon define as People. Those who follow the Greek pantheon define as People.

But those who follow the Hindu pantheon do not define as People.

What do *we* mean by the term "People"?

*Bold type mine

Actually I wanted to point out that the vast majority of Celtic Recons do not in fact identify themselves as pagan at all, and in fact most of them don't even associate with the Neo-Pagan/Pagan community. Celitc Wiccans might identify themselves that way, as well as the generic Celtic Pagan, but like I said there is a sizeable portion of people who follow a Celtic path that do not consider themselves pagan, and in fact hate to be termed as such by others.

[DebLipp]

*Bold type mine

Actually I wanted to point out that the vast majority of Celtic Recons do not in fact identify themselves as pagan at all, and in fact most of them don't even associate with the Neo-Pagan/Pagan community. Celitc Wiccans might identify themselves that way, as well as the generic Celtic Pagan, but like I said there is a sizeable portion of people who follow a Celtic path that do not consider themselves pagan, and in fact hate to be termed as such by others.

With all respect, if you worship multiple gods, how can you not identify as Pagan? Isn't polytheism Pagan by definition?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I personally, while not crazy about the word Pagan, do not shun the word. It's something that most people can understand and takes a lot less explination than saying I'm a Scottish Recon.

However, I believe the reason many do not use the term has to do with a general dislke of the Pagan/Neo-Pagan community. Without getting to far into it, many CRs feel that there has been wholesale ripping off of and destruction of our cultural beliefs and gods by those in the pagan/neo-pagan community. It doesn't help that the CR community is very academically oriented (though not usually to the exclusion of UPG or actually engaging in our beliefs as many seem to think) and has severe issues with what seems like a large portion (I'm not saying all, but it does seem to be a growing trend) of Pagans/Neo-Pagans who say history and accuracy don't matter, that all that matters is what you feel is right. Most CRs don't want to be identified with that sort of reckless behavior that completely disregards what mythology and lore teaches us about the gods and it is for this reason that they shun the term Pagan/Neo-Pagan as a self-identifier. Does that make it any clearer?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Neopagan: Pagan religions founded in the last hundred years or so with a conscious intention to create a new religion or a new form of an old religion.

Paleopagan: Pagan religions of ancient times AND Pagan religions of current times that are intact since ancient times (they never died). Hindus are, by this definition, Paleopagans.

Mesopagans: (I never use this one, but Isaac does) Pagan religions that are a blend of Paleopaganism, Neopaganism, and monotheistic religious forms or cultural values. A good example is Santeria, with its Paleopagan roots blended with Catholicism to create a new (but not really "Neo") religion. Isaac groups Gardnerianism as Mesopagan. Needless to say, I disagree.
What would I do without you?

[DebLipp]

I personally, while not crazy about the word Pagan, do not shun the word. It's something that most people can understand and takes a lot less explination than saying I'm a Scottish Recon.

However, I believe the reason many do not use the term has to do with a general dislke of the Pagan/Neo-Pagan community. Without getting to far into it, many CRs feel that there has been wholesale ripping off of and destruction of our cultural beliefs and gods by those in the pagan/neo-pagan community. It doesn't help that the CR community is very academically oriented (though not usually to the exclusion of UPG or actually engaging in our beliefs as many seem to think) and has severe issues with what seems like a large portion (I'm not saying all, but it does seem to be a growing trend) of Pagans/Neo-Pagans who say history and accuracy don't matter, that all that matters is what you feel is right. Most CRs don't want to be identified with that sort of reckless behavior that completely disregards what mythology and lore teaches us about the gods and it is for this reason that they shun the term Pagan/Neo-Pagan as a self-identifier. Does that make it any clearer?

That does make it clear. It's the community, not the linguistics, that bother you (them).

What's UPG?

Btw, I'd argue that "do what you feel is right" is actually decreasing. When Isaac Bonewits started ADF in the mid 1980s with a motto of "Why Not Excellence?" and a strong focus on academic standards, it was immensely controversial and many people were deeply offended. Now, while many in the community still denigrate intellectual excellence, it is not shocking, and is, in fact, an accepted and (usually) respected way of being Pagan. One of the reasons I have a hard time understanding why Celtic Reconstructionists object to being a part of the Pagn community is that there are so many excellent Druidic and Asatru groups that value historical accuracy and ritual excellence and are very much a part of the Pagan community (two examples being ADF and Keltria).

[Athena-Nadine]

I personally, while not crazy about the word People, do not shun the word. It's something that most people can understand and takes a lot less explination than saying I'm a Scottish Recon.

However, I believe the reason many do not use the term has to do with a general dislke of the People/Neo-People community. Without getting to far into it, many CRs feel that there has been wholesale ripping off of and destruction of our cultural beliefs and gods by those in the People/neo-People community. It doesn't help that the CR community is very academically oriented (though not usually to the exclusion of UPG or actually engaging in our beliefs as many seem to think) and has severe issues with what seems like a large portion (I'm not saying all, but it does seem to be a growing trend) of Peoples/Neo-Peoples who say history and accuracy don't matter, that all that matters is what you feel is right. Most CRs don't want to be identified with that sort of reckless behavior that completely disregards what mythology and lore teaches us about the gods and it is for this reason that they shun the term People/Neo-People as a self-identifier. Does that make it any clearer?
This is a large part of it. Also, many Recons have stopped identifying as Pagan because the word has become practically synonymous with Eclectic and Wiccan, and most of us are tired of automatically being assumed to be Wiccan. The term "Neo-Pagan" even more so, as it has come to be equated with "fluffy" (another word that annoys me no end) by too many people of late.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That does make it clear. It's the community, not the linguistics, that bother you (them).

What's UPG?

Btw, I'd argue that "do what you feel is right" is actually decreasing. When Isaac Bonewits started ADF in the mid 1980s with a motto of "Why Not Excellence?" and a strong focus on academic standards, it was immensely controversial and many people were deeply offended. Now, while many in the community still denigrate intellectual excellence, it is not shocking, and is, in fact, an accepted and (usually) respected way of being People. One of the reasons I have a hard time understanding why Celtic Reconstructionists object to being a part of the Pagn community is that there are so many excellent Druidic and Asatru groups that value historical accuracy and ritual excellence and are very much a part of the People community (two examples being ADF and Keltria).

UPG is shorthand for Unverified Personal Gnosis. Sorry it's something I thought was a commonly accepted abbreviation. ~sheepish smile~

And actually from what I understand most Asatrus also prefer not be labled as neo-pagan/pagan as well and go by the term of Heathen to differentiate themselves from the larger Neo-Pagan/Pagan community.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

This is a large part of it. Also, many Recons have stopped identifying as People because the word has become practically synonymous with Eclectic and Wiccan, and most of us are tired of automatically being assumed to be Wiccan. The term "Neo-People" even more so, as it has come to be equated with "fluffy" (another word that annoys me no end) by too many people of late.

Good point, I kept thinking I was leaving something out. Yet again we seem to have turned into the recon tag-team duo. :T

[Ben Gruagach]

That does make it clear. It's the community, not the linguistics, that bother you (them).

What's UPG?

I believe that UPG stands for "unconfirmed/unverified personal gnosis." Essentially it's that personal experience or belief that people have which they can't really prove but feel it is part of their spiritual path.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment that it's not really the linguistics but the community (or perhaps a perception of the Pagan community) that seems to be at the core of the concern. Some are so worried about being lumped in with those who they think are "flaky" or "fluffy" or whatever that they shy away from acknowledging terms that imply a connection.

Sarah M. Pike wrote an excellent book called "Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves: Contemporary Pagans and the Search for Community" which I think goes a long way towards explaining a lot of these conflicts. Her book is an examination of Pagan community from a sociological viewpoint and provides a lot of interesting insight. For instance she points out that many communities, including many under the Pagan umbrella term, spend a lot of energy trying to establish their specific group's identity by focussing on what they believe is the "other." In Christian groups this is when they go to great lengths to say they are the "true" Christians and point at other Christians and say they are not "true." We often see Wiccans go to great lengths trying to distance themselves from Satanists and stereotypical evil witches. We see many going on at great length about "fluffies" and how what they do is definitely not "fluffy." And I think we are seeing some who have decided they would rather distance themselves from the label Pagan because their identity is at that stage where they need this distancing whether it's accurate or not.

The interesting thing is that this need to focus on the not-us or not-me doesn't have to be the way it is. There are many Christian groups for instance that have built up their own identities enough that they are confident existing in a diverse world, even counting themselves in a larger Christian community that does include very different expressions of Christianity. There are some Pagan groups that are quite comfortable in accepting even Satanists and stereotypical witches as being part of the larger Pagan community. We don't have to build our own identities by focusing on the not-me but can choose to build our identities by focussing on what we really do stand for. I think Isaac was doing that with the "why not excellence" statement and groups like ADF have withstood the initial criticisms.

These conflicts are growing pains but they are also ones we can anticipate and work through. Other groups have done it. Our community can too.

[DebLipp]

I believe that UPG stands for "unconfirmed/unverified personal gnosis." Essentially it's that personal experience or belief that people have which they can't really prove but feel it is part of their spiritual path.Thanks (to both of you).



Sarah M. Pike wrote an excellent book called "Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves: Contemporary Pagans and the Search for Community" which I think goes a long way towards explaining a lot of these conflicts. Her book is an examination of Pagan community from a sociological viewpoint and provides a lot of interesting insight. For instance she points out that many communities, including many under the Pagan umbrella term, spend a lot of energy trying to establish their specific group's identity by focussing on what they believe is the "other." In Christian groups this is when they go to great lengths to say they are the "true" Christians and point at other Christians and say they are not "true." We often see Wiccans go to great lengths trying to distance themselves from Satanists and stereotypical evil witches. We see many going on at great length about "fluffies" and how what they do is definitely not "fluffy." And I think we are seeing some who have decided they would rather distance themselves from the label Pagan because their identity is at that stage where they need this distancing whether it's accurate or not.


Very interesting and I think valid. Lots of people over-identify with separation from the other, which is why I think it's okay and natural (albeit irritating) when new Pagans go on and on about why they're not Christian or why they're better than Christians. Never having been Christian, this was a phase I skipped. :) In fact, never having been Christian, I got all that "we're not the other" thing growing up, and I got kind of grounded about the issue. Yes, I'm a minority. I'm over it. :D

In my life as a Pagan, I have been to a gazillion gatherings and festivals, and this has undoubtedly colored my perceptions. One always sees Celts and Heathens at Pagan gatherings, and while they are a distinct group, they are not apart, if you see what I'm saying. They're a part of a community that (at its best) embraces diversity.

The past five years especially have seen a HUGE influx of new Pagans, many of whom are young and, if not fluffy, at least cuddly and adorable. Which can be irritating if you're old and grumpy and really trying to accomplish something. But despite this population shift, it remains my perception that the Pagan community is smarter, better-educated (about Paganism, I mean), more diverse, and more accepting of diversity than it was in the 1970s or 1980s, and probably the 1990s as well. I think the 21st Century is going to be a banner century for us. I certainly think that the Recons are a part of that diversity and a part of what's making the community great, and I am sad to know that many Recons don't count themselves among us.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I certainly think that the Recons are a part of that diversity and a part of what's making the community great, and I am sad to know that many Recons don't count themselves among us.

I agree with you. Personally I think that both the Neo-Pagan community and the Recons have a great deal that they could learn from and teach each other. I've seen so many CRs bemoan the lack of good knowledge that out there about what we believe, our culture, and our gods (propogated by such authors as DJ Conway, Edan McCoy, and Douglas Munroe) but few of them seem to have any real desire to go out and correct this misinformation. I think it's a mistake to distance ourselves from the rest of the Neo-Pagan community, because as we do so it's only allowing those who do spread such misinformation to come to be relied upon as accurate sources for anything Celtic. And that is a real shame.

[Hærfest Leah]

Wanted to add to this thread that I just read it in my new book " Paganism: An introduction to earth centered religions" by Joyce Higginbotham, that on page 8 it says exactly, " Wicca is the single largest tradition within Paganism; nearly half of all Pagans are Wiccan."

Now I know someone is going to say that " just because its in a book doesn't mean it's true" so I'll save you the trouble. Just wanted to post it.

[mothwench]

It's not, but what's significant is that, if the numbers can be believed, it's the fastest growing religion in the world by a huge margin.

sorry to dredge this up (i haven't been around in a while) but i once googled "fastest growing religion" cause i read that somewhere else, and unfortunately, what came up were all sites about islam. :twitch:

[The High Queen of Faerie]

i dont know if it is... but it is one of the widest known.

[Ben Trismegistus]

sorry to dredge this up (i haven't been around in a while) but i once googled "fastest growing religion" cause i read that somewhere else, and unfortunately, what came up were all sites about islam. :twitch:
Depends who you ask. A lot of the researchers don't consider Wicca to be a "real" religion. But it has grown by something like 150% in the past 10-20 years (don't remember the exact numbers). Islam is growing very fast in sheer numbers, and if you take into account specific Christian sects, Mormonism outpaces Islam.

[mothwench]

Depends who you ask. A lot of the researchers don't consider Wicca to be a "real" religion. But it has grown by something like 150% in the past 10-20 years (don't remember the exact numbers). Islam is growing very fast in sheer numbers, and if you take into account specific Christian sects, Mormonism outpaces Islam.

oh, i forgot about the fact that wicca (like most other pagan religions) is still struggling to be recognized. plus most sites i spoke of were in some way promoting the islamic religion, so they're bound to state that theirs is the fastest growing. i didn't know that about the mormons, though. astounding. :foh:

[Ben Trismegistus]

oh, i forgot about the fact that wicca (like most other pagan religions) is still struggling to be recognized. plus most sites i spoke of were in some way promoting the islamic religion, so they're bound to state that theirs is the fastest growing. i didn't know that about the mormons, though. astounding. :foh:
Tangent: Interestingly enough, Islam and Mormonism are far outpacing other religions not because of conversion numbers, but simply because of high birth rates. Those two cultures have a LOT of children.

[mothwench]

well, that should be classed as cheating. :p i want to disqualify them from this race.

[SilentDreams]

well, that should be classed as cheating. :p i want to disqualify them from this race.


:yayah:

LOL that is too funny!^^

*hi5 mothewench*

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I said i'd explain in the post below in teh poll so i will. I think that wicca is not the largest pagan path. I do however think it is the most publically well known path, and so new seekers to pagan religions in general use it as a stepping stone kinda. Also i think the answer to the poll would depend on how you define wicca. whether you are calling only Garnerian and Alexandrian and such wicca, or whether you include the so called (so called because i don't agree w/ it and dont' like to use the terminology) "neo-wicca" in your definition of wicca.

[WandererInGray]

On religioustollerance.org it says that Wicca will be the 3rd largest religion after christianity and Judaism (sp?) by I think 2012 was the date.

I highly doubt that foretelling by the website will come to pass. Wiccans would have to overcome not only the Hindu population in the world, which is rapidly growing, but the Buddhism populations as well. Yes, folks, it's a philosophy to some and a religion to others. However, it's considered a religion by just about every website out there that runs these statistics.

The fourth definition of religion according to MW (that's Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religion&x=12&y=18) :lol: ) a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


So this bring me to my poll, is Wicca the largest path among pagans, I rarely even see books or web sites for all the other Pagan paths.

*shrugs* I'd say no. If we're going by the broad definition of Pagan as "anything but the top three" then it wouldn't come close. But even if we're talking strictly "new age" beliefs, then I'd have to say more people identify as Eclectic Pagans than Wiccans.

[Pure Ahimsa]

Judaism is not the second biggest religion... their are 14million Jews, and most of them are Atheist/Agnostic.

[DebLipp]

Here is an excellent pie chart: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm


Judaism is not the second biggest religion... their are 14million Jews, and most of them are Atheist/Agnostic.
I really have no idea how you conclude that most Jews are atheists or agnostics. Nor is it pertinent to the size of the Jewish population, since one can be an agnostic Jew and still be a Jew.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Here is an excellent pie chart: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm


I really have no idea how you conclude that most Jews are atheists or agnostics. Nor is it pertinent to the size of the Jewish population, since one can be an agnostic Jew and still be a Jew.In my experience, I have never met an agnostic or atheistic Jew (though I have met a few that believe there's a God but don't really care about being religious). That doesn't mean they aren't out there, but I don't know that "most" is exactly the right word.

I'm not sure that these estimates divide Jews based upon how religious they are. While there may be a significant number of "secular Jews" out there, I don't know that there's any way to discern them from more "religious Jews". (There are "secular" Christians, for that matter, and you can be sure that those are included in these surveys, so I don't think the numbers would be disproportionate in favor of the Jewish population due to "secular Jews".)

From what I've heard, these kinds of reports usually depend upon the church authority to report how many people their church claims. And the churches usually find ways to report the largest number possible. Thus I wouldn't rely on them except for a rough idea of relative size.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[DebLipp]

In my experience, I have never met an agnostic or atheistic Jew (though I have met a few that believe there's a God but don't really care about being religious). That doesn't mean they aren't out there, but I don't know that "most" is exactly the right word.

I'm not sure that these estimates divide Jews based upon how religious they are. While there may be a significant number of "secular Jews" out there, I don't know that there's any way to discern them from more "religious Jews". (There are "secular" Christians, for that matter, and you can be sure that those are included in these surveys, so I don't think the numbers would be disproportionate in favor of the Jewish population due to "secular Jews".)

From what I've heard, these kinds of reports usually depend upon the church authority to report how many people their church claims. And the churches usually find ways to report the largest number possible. Thus I wouldn't rely on them except for a rough idea of relative size.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo
My mother and brother are both agnostic Jews. But they're definitely Jews. The implication that agnostic Jews should not, somehow, "count," as Jewish indicates a misunderstanding about the nature of Judaism.

Judaism is not a faith-based religion. It is not predicated on what you believe. Judaism is a tribe, based on who you are, and a system of behavior and ethics, based on what you do. Of course, it also has faith, and God, and the supernatural, and all that. But in the West, we are used to perceiving faith as the single defining principal of a religion because that's the way it is in Christianity -- a Christian is one who believes in Christ. This is simply not the way of it in Judaism.

Many Jews are probably agnostic, like my mom, although "most" is completely made-up. But that doesn't mean they aren't Jewish, committed to Judaism, and proudly and firmly identified as Jews.

[Dawa Lhamo]

My mother and brother are both agnostic Jews. But they're definitely Jews. The implication that agnostic Jews should not, somehow, "count," as Jewish indicates a misunderstanding about the nature of Judaism.

Judaism is not a faith-based religion. It is not predicated on what you believe. Judaism is a tribe, based on who you are, and a system of behavior and ethics, based on what you do. Of course, it also has faith, and God, and the supernatural, and all that. But in the West, we are used to perceiving faith as the single defining principal of a religion because that's the way it is in Christianity -- a Christian is one who believes in Christ. This is simply not the way of it in Judaism.

Many Jews are probably agnostic, like my mom, although "most" is completely made-up. But that doesn't mean they aren't Jewish, committed to Judaism, and proudly and firmly identified as Jews. You're right, that's true, belief is just a part of the definition of religion, with morality, codes of behaviour, rites and ceremonies, etc, etc, being a huge part of it.

For my own part, I didn't really *mean* to say that agnostic or "secular" Jews were not Jewish-- I included the quotes because I don't think "secular" is really an accurate term, though it seems to be a popular one--So I apologize if it came off that way. I wasn't trying to address whether or not they were Jewish or not, but rather the fact that there is no real way to separate "nonbelieving" from "believing" Jews, even if one wanted to (using the term "religious" was probably a mistake on my part). And I was trying to address the original person's comment that all the Jewish "nonbelievers" make Judaism seem larger isn't really the case, because one could say that about Christianity, too. There are plenty of people who consider themselves Christians who don't *really* believe in God or go to church, but who live within Christian culture, apply Christian morality to their lives, have Christian marriages/funerals, and so forth. To say that Judaism is smaller than reported because of all the "nonbelievers" doesn't really change the relative size because every other religion on the list has "nonbelievers" being reported.

And like the website you linked said, there are evangelists and such who don't believe a person is really Christian unless he is 'born-again', so one might as well say that Christianity's numbers are inflated.

Self-reporting seems to be the best method, despite the inherent problems, simply because different people have different ideas about what their religion *means* and to go with only one definition (such as "believers") would cut off all kinds of people (or include too many)...

So anyway, thanks for making those points and reminding me about Judaism... sometimes I get carried away. *sheepish grin*

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[stella01904]

MM ~ As to the original question, I chose the last option, for the reason that it depends on your definition of "Pagan".
If it simply means "not Zoroastrian-based", then no. Buddhism would be my guess for the largest following. Possibly Hinduism. But not Wicca.
Some people seem to be using "Pagan" to mean "European Paganism or based in European Paganism". That would change the numbers considerably.
BB, Stella

[DebLipp]

For my own part, I didn't really *mean* to say that agnostic or "secular" Jews were not Jewish-- I included the quotes because I don't think "secular" is really an accurate term, though it seems to be a popular one--So I apologize if it came off that way.Not at all. You were clear, and the term "secular" is commonly used. I was responding to this:


their are 14million Jews, and most of them are Atheist/Agnostic.
...which sounded to me like "therefore subtract them out" although I could be wrong in that interpretation.


Self-reporting seems to be the best method, despite the inherent problems, simply because different people have different ideas about what their religion *means* and to go with only one definition (such as "believers") would cut off all kinds of people (or include too many)...

I completely agree, although I must say I have a big problem with calling "Messianic Jews" Jews, but every system has problems, as you say.

[Dawa Lhamo]

MM ~ As to the original question, I chose the last option, for the reason that it depends on your definition of "People".
If it simply means "not Zoroastrian-based", then no. Buddhism would be my guess for the largest following. Possibly Hinduism. But not Wicca.
Some people seem to be using "People" to mean "European Peopleism or based in European Peopleism". That would change the numbers considerably.
BB, StellaExactly; it depends on how you define "pagan". If "pagan" means anything not Christian (as it does to some), then obviously Islam is the largest pagan path. If "pagan" means anything not Abrahamic, then I think Hinduism is next. And actually, Hinduism stays the largest through many definitions ... http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1991/02/1991-02-03.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/4965/letter.html
And even if we define a "pagan" as someone who calls himself a "pagan", you'll get some Hindus in there (I could find references to it but not the actual article in Hinduism Today where the publishers were supposed to have declared solidarity and accepted the term "pagan" on behalf of Hindus)....

BUT, if we're just going with European pagan religions or if we somehow find a way to cut out Hinduism and Buddhism (Sikhs and Jains, too) and Shinto from our definitions, then Wicca probably is the largest. If only by virtue of it's invasiveness. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[DebLipp]

(I could find references to it but not the actual article in Hinduism Today where the publishers were supposed to have declared solidarity and accepted the term "pagan" on behalf of Hindus)....

It was somewhere around 1988, 89, 90, like that. So it would be very hard to find.

[Stormie]

totally clueless!

[Dawa Lhamo]

It was somewhere around 1988, 89, 90, like that. So it would be very hard to find.Well that would explain it then. ^_^ ha! Well, thanks for letting me know. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Dave the Druid]

Should have jumped on this one sooner.

Consider Wicca as a large umbrella group much in the way christanity covers a wide variety of beliefs. I won't vouch for it as one of the largest even by what was it 2012? Still it is growing and as such; once more organised may pull some political weight. I for one wouldn't mind having a holiday on Samhain without raising too many eyebrows.

[stella01904]

I for one wouldn't mind having a holiday on Samhain without raising too many eyebrows.MM ~ I always put in for the night off a few weeks ahead of time. Family business. ;)
BB, Stella