Atheists and OBE..??

[Imbrium]

I was talking to an aquaintence of mine who happens to be an athiest, and we were discussing OBEs...out of body experiences. It was his point of view that they were, in his opinion, a bogus conjuration of the imagination. Which got me to wondering: what about the other athiests out there?

So I pose this question to everybody who believes that the body is the only point of consciousness that there can be, what do you think of the OBE and why? Also, what is your take on what causes the perception of the of the mind to feel like it's left the body.

Just curious ;)

OH, by the way, strong emphasis on the 'why' part of these questions.

[Radocs]

I don't believe in 'em.

My humble opinion is that we are matter that is aware of it's own existance. Our consciousness is a product of our particular configuration of atoms, and once that configuration is no longer viable, that's it. Game over, man.

But I could be wrong.

[Imbrium]

I don't believe in 'em.

My humble opinion is that we are matter that is aware of it's own existance. Our consciousness is a product of our particular configuration of atoms, and once that configuration is no longer viable, that's it. Game over, man.

But I could be wrong.
Okey dokey. Do you have an opinion to what might cause someone to think they are having an obe? An athiest's point of view, o' course.

[Whisper9999]

I was talking to an aquaintence of mine who happens to be an athiest, and we were discussing OBEs...out of body experiences. It was his point of view that they were, in his opinion, a bogus conjuration of the imagination. Which got me to wondering: what about the other athiests out there?

So I pose this question to everybody who believes that the body is the only point of consciousness that there can be, what do you think of the OBE and why? Also, what is your take on what causes the perception of the of the mind to feel like it's left the body.

Just curious ;)

OH, by the way, strong emphasis on the 'why' part of these questions.

I've discussed this topic with atheists quite a few times, including the documented cases of OBE's occurring as part of the new body of research regarding Near Death Experiences. In many of these cases, the OBE'r sees unusual events around the room that can later be verified. Yet in spite of my many discussions with atheists, they never budge. They simply will not even entertain the thought of the supernatural from what I've seen. I have found, after lengthy discussions, that there are generally several reasons for this:

1. "It didn't happen in a double blind, laboratory setting, so it's not valid".
2. "I have never experienced the supernatural nor have any of my friends."
3. They despise religion and all things spiritual. They see religion as the source of almost all evil in the world, including wars, human ignorance, persecution, authoritarianism, etc.
4. They are usually analytical/mathematical and for someone with that kind of personality (like myself), the ultimate sin is to be technically wrong. Thus they feel very uncomfortable with the supernatural/spiritual world because 100% of it (imho) cannot occur in a laboratory setting for a variety of reasons and therefore can never be proven.

So, anyway, good luck with this thread...

[Radocs]

Okey dokey. Do you have an opinion to what might cause someone to think they are having an obe? An athiest's point of view, o' course.


Hallucination would be my best guess. Our minds are quite capable of playing tricks on us. ^_^

[Whisper9999]

This is my point: the alternative is never even considered. All things supernatural are immediately thrown out...

[Imbrium]

This is my point: the alternative is never even considered. All things supernatural are immediately thrown out...
Yes, As someone who believes that the spirit can reside outside the body, I've run into that alot too. But I like to have a good, well defined reason for things. I'm hoping that someone who feels that it's simply an hallucination can give me a really good reason for the hallucination, not just ...'cause.

When I was small, I had what to me, felt like an obe. It was very quick and fairly unremarkable. I was dozing on the couch, floated toward the ceiling above our tall cabinet and back down. All done. I'm still working on trying to repeat the experience. But what puzzled me the most was that I noticed dust on the top of the shelf. My mother is a clean freak and I simply didn't have dust around the house when I was growing up.

I would later learn that she didn't dust up there very often.

Well, ok. In talking to people who don't believe in such things this little tidbit is completely disregarded. Which is fine by me, but what's the reason?......................

And truly, since I certainly do not hold the keys to all knowledge I really, really want a good opinion on this. I do this so that I hopefully keep myself balanced in my religious views. Er,...hopefully...:D

[Radocs]

This is my point: the alternative is never even considered. All things supernatural are immediately thrown out...

Nobody asked me to consider an alternative. She asked what I thought and I told her. No need to jump down my throat.

[Whisper9999]

Nobody asked me to consider an alternative. She asked what I thought and I told her. No need to jump down my throat.

Sorry - I re-read my post again and it was harsh and unnecessary. My apologies...

[Imbrium]

Everyone take a deap cleansing breath ;)

True, I didn't ask for an alternative. I'm just trying to establish a solid counter point of view to my own.

I would like to say that the reason I'm asking is because I've run in to the same barriers in conversation that Wisper mentioned....and yes, it can be frustrating, but I know that there is an answer to be had somewhere!

And....In all fairness, I've run into people who are strong believers in the afterlife and such, who just follow the quackiest things that I've ever heard with no inclination to get evidence to support thier views......"Elvis was an alien ya know "

[Whisper9999]

Everyone take a deap cleansing breath ;)

True, I didn't ask for an alternative. I'm just trying to establish a solid counter point of view to my own.

I would like to say that the reason I'm asking is because I've run in to the same barriers in conversation that Wisper mentioned....and yes, it can be frustrating, but I know that there is an answer to be had somewhere!

And....In all fairness, I've run into people who are strong believers in the afterlife and such, who just follow the quackiest things that I've ever heard with no inclination to get evidence to support thier views......"Elvis was an alien ya know "

That's what bugged me: "hallucination" has a negative and derogatory connotation to me, because it implies that the participant cannot tell the difference between hallucination and reality.

But when I reread his response, I realized he was just being honest and you can't fault someone for that...

[Ben Trismegistus]

Imbrium, if this is a topic that interests you, I STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest that you go right out and buy the book Passage by Connie Willis. It's a fiction book about a scientist working to prove that NDEs (near death experiences) are merely the product of stray electrical signals in the brain during trauma. What she discovers is much more. (Not giving anything away.)

It's an incredible book.

[Imbrium]

Imbrium, if this is a topic that interests you, I STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest that you go right out and buy the book Passage by Connie Willis. It's a fiction book about a scientist working to prove that NDEs (near death experiences) are merely the product of stray electrical signals in the brain during trauma. What she discovers is much more. (Not giving anything away.)

It's an incredible book.
;)Well, since you strongly, strongly, strongly suggest this, than I had just better take your advice!

Although I'm going to have to sandwich time between school and little ones....

[Shanti]

In my mind, I dont see what beliefs in any gods or lack of has to do with OBE or spirit!
I belive in spirit but no gods. OBE, its metaphysical!

[Marchosias]

In my mind, I dont see what beliefs in any gods or lack of has to do with OBE or spirit!
I belive in spirit but no gods. OBE, its metaphysical!

While the literal definition of an Atheist only excludes a Deity (one or more), informally, Atheists are often thought of as not believeing in anything spiritual.
Often false, just the usual offhand perception.

As to my stand, Radocs stated it perfectly.

[Imbrium]

In my mind, I dont see what beliefs in any gods or lack of has to do with OBE or spirit!
I belive in spirit but no gods. OBE, its metaphysical!OH, I'm sorry. I was referring to somebody who has no belief in spirit. Therefore, what is the take on the out of body experience if one feels that there is no "out of body"........again, I'm fine with everyone's opinions on the matter, but what I'm trying to dig up hear is more like....um.....a scientific explanation for obe that would align itself with the athiests' point of view, and that the type of athiesm being no belief in spirit or life after death.

I know....specifics, specifics.....

And, again, it's because I keep running into the "well, just 'cause" answer. Which is unsatisfying as it gets for me. I just love swimming in the details of a matter......

[Shanti]

OH, I'm sorry. I was referring to somebody who has no belief in spirit. Therefore, what is the take on the out of body experience if one feels that there is no "out of body"........again, I'm fine with everyone's opinions on the matter, but what I'm trying to dig up hear is more like....um.....a scientific explanation for obe that would align itself with the athiests' point of view, and that the type of athiesm being no belief in spirit or life after death.

I know....specifics, specifics.....

And, again, it's because I keep running into the "well, just 'cause" answer. Which is unsatisfying as it gets for me. I just love swimming in the details of a matter......
Well it would be an energy. I dont mean a invisable ghost thing. Just an energy. Science has measured energy coming from many things, both animate and inanimate. There has been contraversal research on measuring energy leaving bodies too. Energy is everywhere in the universe. I dont see why the consept of that energy becoming dispersed at death isnt practicle. And since our brains are producing energy all the time, why couldnt they have the capability to project our bodies energy by will?

[Imbrium]

Well it would be an energy. I dont mean a invisable ghost thing. Just an energy. Science has measured energy coming from many things, both animate and inanimate. There has been contraversal research on measuring energy leaving bodies too. Energy is everywhere in the universe. I dont see why the consept of that energy becoming dispersed at death isnt practicle. And since our brains are producing energy all the time, why couldnt they have the capability to project our bodies energy by will?
Hey, nifty! That's the best answer I've heard yet! *does a copy/paste and stows away in file of stuff...*

[WolfWonderess]

Yeah, there are many different types of atheist. I have an atheist friend who believes strongly in spiritual things--just not in any deity. She believes in spirits, OBEs, afterlife, reincarnation, etc. ^_~

Then, there are the strictly scientific atheists who disbelieve *anything* with any *hint* of spirituality involved.

Personally, as someone who practices astral projection, I can't altogether understand the latter atheist's argument against OBE. If it's a hallucination, how can events that were occuring around you (or sometimes miles away from you) be verified later?

[Imbrium]

Yeah, there are many different types of atheist. I have an atheist friend who believes strongly in spiritual things--just not in any deity. She believes in spirits, OBEs, afterlife, reincarnation, etc. ^_~

Then, there are the strictly scientific atheists who disbelieve *anything* with any *hint* of spirituality involved.

Personally, as someone who practices astral projection, I can't altogether understand the latter atheist's argument against OBE. If it's a hallucination, how can events that were occuring around you (or sometimes miles away from you) be verified later?
Yes, that's got me scratching my head too....
Although I'm just 'trying' to astral project at this point. Have had some awsome lucid dreams though!

[bshore]

One conversation I've always wanted to have with an atheist is how do they think animated life came about? See, scientists can recreate anything in a lab AS LONG AS THEY HAVE LIVING MATERIAL TO START WITH. But, they can't create something from scratch using all the right chemicals and molecules and then animate it. I wonder, how would someone who doesn't believe in spiritual matters argue this? Have we simply not tried to create life yet? Do they think it will happen some day?

I know this is off topic, but it got me thinking. Feel free to ignore me in favor of the original topic.

[Radocs]

One conversation I've always wanted to have with an atheist is how do they think animated life came about? See, scientists can recreate anything in a lab AS LONG AS THEY HAVE LIVING MATERIAL TO START WITH. But, they can't create something from scratch using all the right chemicals and molecules and then animate it. I wonder, how would someone who doesn't believe in spiritual matters argue this? Have we simply not tried to create life yet? Do they think it will happen some day?

I know this is off topic, but it got me thinking. Feel free to ignore me in favor of the original topic.

Imagine taking all the ingredients of a cake and dumping them in a dish. All the correct components are in there but you wouldn't really call that a cake. You have to bake it.

We can take all the physical components of a living organism and toss 'em all together and not get a living organism. Obviously this is a little more complex than baking a cake. ^_^

[bshore]

Yes, but see in your analogy (wich is pretty darn good!) we've all been "baked" or we wouldn't be living. My question is, what constitutes the "baking". In other words, how do we go from being a mix of human genes and microbes to being a living, walking person?

[Radocs]

Yes, but see in your analogy (wich is pretty darn good!) we've all been "baked" or we wouldn't be living. My question is, what constitutes the "baking". In other words, how do we go from being a mix of human genes and microbes to being a living, walking person?

That's the million dollar question.

Could just be a natural process, like the way stars form for instance.
Could be something else. Who knows? Not me.

[NarYave]

I about half read everyone's comments here.
I don't think it has anything to do with hallucinating, Because i have had a few out of body experiences. Please correct me if i am wrong but dont you have to take some sort of drug to be hallucinating, or deprived of something.
Also, about atheists, My fiance brought a real good point to my attention. Atheist believe in something, the believe in not believing. And My fiance just doesnt care. either way. He says whatever. Because he honeslty doesn't believe in anything.
Does that mean he still believes in something?

[Radocs]

I about half read everyone's comments here.
I don't think it has anything to do with hallucinating, Because i have had a few out of body experiences. Please correct me if i am wrong but dont you have to take some sort of drug to be hallucinating, or deprived of something.
Also, about atheists, My fiance brought a real good point to my attention. Atheist believe in something, the believe in not believing. And My fiance just doesnt care. either way. He says whatever. Because he honeslty doesn't believe in anything.
Does that mean he still believes in something?

One could argue that there's a difference in believing in nothing, and not having any beliefs.

[Imbrium]

One could argue that there's a difference in believing in nothing, and not having any beliefs.
:ballonsmi Being someone who's mind is cluttered up with possible beliefs, I would certainly find it easier to believe in nothing, than to try not to believe in anything....so I do see a difference between the two!
......not to get off topic or anything. :chatty:

Radocs........may I ask your take on how far hallucinations go? For instance, In one interesting case of an OBE report, a woman, who apparently left her body during cardiac arrest, found herself on the roof of the hospital. On the roof was an old, red shoe. When the woman was recovering, she insisted that the nurse go and check the roof, who found the red shoe...much to everyone's surprise.

Anyway, hallucinations, by their nature, are usually confined to the mind. By what method could one percieve something outside of the mind? Shanti's assertion that it would be possible for the mind to project the bodies' energy was a good one. ...Since yes, the idea that the bodies' energy could dissipate at death, but still exist before the actual event is interesting. (I sincerly hope she's wrong...but, hey, what can I do about it?)....Anyway.........

[Radocs]

I don't know enough about the medical causes for hallucinations to make an informed opinion. Sorry.

[Imbrium]

I don't know enough about the medical causes for hallucinations to make an informed opinion. Sorry.
:thumbsup: s'ok! I'm just too curious for my own good!

[Radocs]

It's not that you're too curious, I'm just not qualified to discuss that particular subject. :D

[NarYave]

:ballonsmi Being someone who's mind is cluttered up with possible beliefs, I would certainly find it easier to believe in nothing, than to try not to believe in anything....so I do see a difference between the two! ...
[font=Comic Sans MS][size=2]Anyway, hallucinations, by their nature, are usually confined to the mind. By what method could one percieve something outside of the mind? Shanti's assertion that it would be possible for the mind to project the bodies' energy was a good one. ...Since yes, the idea that the bodies' energy could dissipate at death, but still exist before the actual event is interesting. (I sincerly hope she's wrong...but, hey, what can I do about it?)....Anyway.........

See what i am saying is one night i went to bed had a dream i was floating in the air watching my body laying on the bed, but when i woke up i was not only facing a different direction as so
Head at the top-----Feet at the bottom of the bed
But instead :lookaroun
Feet at the top------ Head at the bottm of the bed
With all my pillow and blankets just the way i had them on the other side.
What do you make of that? :whatmewor

[Radocs]

Though it isn't directly related to the topic of the thread, I would humbly suggest that you pick up a copy of Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden" which discusses human intelligence and how the "mind" works. ^_^

[Erebus]

Well, considering that (A) we can give someone a "near death experience" simply by elecrically stimulating a certain region of the brain, and (B) nobody who's ever had a "near death experience" in the operating room has correctly identified the strange objects placed in most ORs in America on the tops of the shelves that would only be visible to someone floating above (and were placed there specifically to study NDEs)....

Well, you know, you just draw your own conclusions, and stuff.

[skatha_mare]

OH, I'm sorry. I was referring to somebody who has no belief in spirit. Therefore, what is the take on the out of body experience if one feels that there is no "out of body"........again, I'm fine with everyone's opinions on the matter, but what I'm trying to dig up hear is more like....um.....a scientific explanation for obe that would align itself with the athiests' point of view, and that the type of athiesm being no belief in spirit or life after death.


Who says that a belief in spirit is necessary? Could it not just be the ability to redirect one's conciousness using the electrical impulses that are inherent in all living beings and some non-living things (like electrical lines)? After all, electrical impulses are the basis for all change in the world (from the atom on up).

[Marchosias]

See what i am saying is one night i went to bed had a dream i was floating in the air watching my body laying on the bed, but when i woke up i was not only facing a different direction as so
Head at the top-----Feet at the bottom of the bed
But instead :lookaroun
Feet at the top------ Head at the bottm of the bed
With all my pillow and blankets just the way i had them on the other side.

I think that happens to everyone occasionally.
Er, at least the second part.



What do you make of that? :whatmewor

You managed to get all turned around in your sleep without messing up the covers (that you could notice).

Not unheard of.

[Imbrium]

Who says that a belief in spirit is necessary? Could it not just be the ability to redirect one's conciousness using the electrical impulses that are inherent in all living beings and some non-living things (like electrical lines)? After all, electrical impulses are the basis for all change in the world (from the atom on up).I didn't say that a belief in spirit was necessary. What I am chewing on at the moment is the very opposite. What does an (any) individual who doesn't believe is spirit think about OBE's...I'm not trying to push buttons, just define reasons. At the moment I am researching this for myself, and like to know these things. And yes, I suppose that would be possible.

Erebus: would you kindly direct me to the source of your information? Or if it's necessary, sarcasticly, but I prefer the former. ;)

[Imbrium]

Though it isn't directly related to the topic of the thread, I would humbly suggest that you pick up a copy of Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden" which discusses human intelligence and how the "mind" works. ^_^
Gotcha! Thanks much!

[NarYave]

I think that happens to everyone occasionally.
Er, at least the second part.

Yeah It's been an occassion where I toss and turn and end up somewhere I wasn't :uhhuhuh:


You managed to get all turned around in your sleep without messing up the covers (that you could notice).

Not unheard of.

Yes the cover where perfect and my pillows just as i had laid them on the other side of the bed. :collapse:

[Shanti]

Well, considering that (A) we can give someone a "near death experience" simply by elecrically stimulating a certain region of the brain, and (B) nobody who's ever had a "near death experience" in the operating room has correctly identified the strange objects placed in most ORs in America on the tops of the shelves that would only be visible to someone floating above (and were placed there specifically to study NDEs)....

Well, you know, you just draw your own conclusions, and stuff.
Does science think that in a true naturally occuring NDE that the person is even aware of the rooms contents to that point since the person has just been seperated from their body and is not quite worried about scenery. A NDE isnt even like being a person anymore its all differant.
If science is studing this from that angle, they are surely barking up the wrong tree!!

[Erebus]

If science is studing this from that angle, they are surely barking up the wrong tree!!

We can only study claims. If someone claims to have been floating above their body, and seeing the doctors et all working, but did not notice the neon chicken picture on top of the heart monitor....

Well, we can only evaluate the claims....

[Shanti]

We can only study claims. If someone claims to have been floating above their body, and seeing the doctors et all working, but did not notice the neon chicken picture on top of the heart monitor....

Well, we can only evaluate the claims....
Well it happened to me and I can definately say that decor is not a big issue!!! In fact its not even a care at that point!!! It is a little bit of a SHOCK!!!

That is so dumb.

[Erebus]

Let me try this again.

Mr A is floating. He sees his body. He sees the doctors. When asked later, he says the tops of the doctors' hats were plain white. In reality, they actually had neon green triangles on them.

We can only evaluate the claims.

[Shanti]

Let me try this again.

Mr A is floating. He sees his body. He sees the doctors. When asked later, he says the tops of the doctors' hats were plain white. In reality, they actually had neon green triangles on them.

We can only evaluate the claims. Well that was A, not me!!! When I woke up I started talking right away. My doc was there when I woke.
I told my doc everything that happened before he even had a chance to speak and I was right on.

Maybe science, if thats how they are doing this, should start over!!

[Radocs]

That is so dumb.

Correct. Obviously we don't have the necessary facilities to truly test this sort of thing, so a scientific conclusion will not be reached by you or I.

Also, someone's word is not evidence. I could post on here that I regularly travel to the moon and it doesn't make it true. I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm just pointing out that simply saying "I did it!" isn't going to be enough for anyone who is already inclined to think otherwise.

[Shanti]

Correct. Obviously we don't have the necessary facilities to truly test this sort of thing, so a scientific conclusion will not be reached by you or I.

Also, someone's word is not evidence. I could post on here that I regularly travel to the moon and it doesn't make it true. I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm just pointing out that simply saying "I did it!" isn't going to be enough for anyone who is already inclined to think otherwise. This is very true!!! :)
Thank you!! :)

[Imbrium]

Hmmmm...I'm trying to look up the name of the person this test was done on, but I still searching...He was a fairly well known remote viewer.

Anyway, to address the issue of visuals while out of body. There was one test done on an individual, (And I will try to find the information), I believe by proper scientists and all, in order to determine if OBE were real. So the individual in question was asked to "leave his body" and go to a prepared room with no doors or windows, and identify an object in the room. One of the objects was an american flag...and there were several other objects tested as well.

The interesting thing about this, was while he did not recognise the flag for what it was, he was able to produce a drawing of it, completely out of whack. But with all of the correct shapes, colors, and a few good angles. Some other tests done reveal that there seems to be a peculiar nature to astral travel, in that there is a "skewing" of points of view and vision.

OK.....I will try to dig up this info now. Hate quoting without a source.

[Imbrium]

Arrrg...I no longer have the book...WONK! It was a borrowed from the library. I did find reference to it on a slightly less than wholsome website called beyond weird.com. Unfortunately, He did not give sources or the name of the individuals that set up this test. But I'll quote the paragraph mentioned.

Scientific experimenters were quick to discover that OBE eyesight is different from physical eyesight. They set up a simple experiment: They placed an object inside a locked room. The subject was supposed to fly into that room and identify the object. The experiment sounds easy enough, but the subjects had problems identifying the objects. The most proficient subjects, such as Ingo Swann and Keith ("Blue") Harary could make drawings of what they saw during OBE experiments. Often the drawings were unrecognizable, or at best distorted. For example, in one experiment part of the "target" was an American flag. Ingo Swann made a very impressive and accurate drawing of the target. However, the flag was drawn as a rectangle with a box in one corner and stripes on the rest of the rectangle. Ingo seemed to see the flag with some clarity, but was unable to identify it as an American flag. Why do such distortions exist?

It's certainly not proof. But I find it interesting nonetheless.

[NarYave]

Isn't this really all a matter of opinion?? Really? It's a possibility it isn't a possibililty.
The whole point in my story was.. In fact. The dream I had was just a dream.
When I woke up I wasn't where I was supposed to be with all my pillows correct and all. It shocked me and I thought maybe someone moved me.
But no, Infact after that night I couldn't sleep with the lights completly off and a few weeks later I went to sleep and it happened again. This Time my fiance was awake to see what was going on... Sometimes you need prof, sometimes you need the turth.

[SH-AA]

I don't believe in OBE. I don't have much to contribute to this topic, but here's an interesting article about the subject:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/

Oh, and if you can OBE, go claim your prize :fpartyhat :
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

[Whisper9999]

I don't believe in OBE. I don't have much to contribute to this topic, but here's an interesting article about the subject:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/

Oh, and if you can OBE, go claim your prize :fpartyhat :
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

You go to a movie theatre. You sit down and enjoy the incredible sound, the spectacular visuals that are taking place on the screen in front of you and the speakers all around you. It's an impressive experience given to us by 21st century technology. Computers, sophisticated materials and alloys, and complex electronics and machinery all are combined to make this experience an unforgettable one.

But all of that pales in comparison to an OBE. Stop and think about it. If you had an OBE, what would you be seeing? You would be floating through the air, flying through different three dimensional worlds all holographically projected for the most incredible visual experience that one can imagine.

Was this done with 21st century technology? No. This was done through a supposedly primitive animal brain built through random processes? Why would evolution build a flight simulator technologically beyond current 21st century science?

Of course, you can believe and think what you want. But don't ask me to believe that in a few million years this sort of supercomputer was built by simple Monte Carlo simulations. The power of this biochemical machine is beyond any of our wildest imagination's and won't fit easily and nicely into any simple mechanistic model...

Pixar would love to have the computing power of the human brain, but that is decades off. Stop and think about it. It will be decades before combined and closely guided human effort can even come close to achieving what the human brain does with a yawn and a smile...

[NarYave]

as always a new way of looking at things :)

[Whisper9999]

One conversation I've always wanted to have with an atheist is how do they think animated life came about? See, scientists can recreate anything in a lab AS LONG AS THEY HAVE LIVING MATERIAL TO START WITH. But, they can't create something from scratch using all the right chemicals and molecules and then animate it. I wonder, how would someone who doesn't believe in spiritual matters argue this? Have we simply not tried to create life yet? Do they think it will happen some day?

I know this is off topic, but it got me thinking. Feel free to ignore me in favor of the original topic.

Actually, this has been a disaster for science. The Urey and Miller experiments of the 1950's have utterly and completely dead ended. Many scientists, including NASA itself, are now looking toward out space and panspermia as solution to the overwhelming difficulties that science now faces in this area.

[Whisper9999]

Well, considering that (A) we can give someone a "near death experience" simply by elecrically stimulating a certain region of the brain, and (B) nobody who's ever had a "near death experience" in the operating room has correctly identified the strange objects placed in most ORs in America on the tops of the shelves that would only be visible to someone floating above (and were placed there specifically to study NDEs)....

Well, you know, you just draw your own conclusions, and stuff.

Actually, many NDErs have seen and verified objects and occurrences in their surroundings that would not have been possible from their vantage point. These are well-documented and the researchers are well-qualified.

[Whisper9999]

as always a new way of looking at things :)

Thx. The power of the human brain is mind-boggling - no pun intended of course...

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I have been in a period of atheism for some years. However, beginning last November, I begin to reopen my investigations into alternate paths, which I had begun 20 years ago. I am presently investigating Wicca VERY strongly. But, I am still atheist. How can this be? Due to some issues from my past, I tend to interpret most things from a psychological standpoint. Therefore, I don't see any religion as objectively "real," but interpret religious experiences as products of the psyche, ie, subjectively "real."

So, in November 2003, I began to investigate different deities and felt a strong pull towards Thoth. I beginning reading everything I could about this entity, and received a Thoth statue as a gift. In late April, I attended my first pagan event, which was a Beltane celebration locally. The wednesday after that weekend, I began to meditate and entered the astral. I know this for a fact, since I was aware of what was happening and directing things, unlike when I dream. It was bizarre in that, I wouldn't know what I was supposed to do next, but the thought would be inserted into my mind instantly.

When I first "came to" in the astral, I knew there was this entity in the room with me, although I never saw him. I know it was Thoth, appearring exactly as the statue, even though I never saw him. I had asked for him to join me before I began this meditation. He was at least twice the size of the room, with his waist hitting a little higher than the ceiling. Anyway, I eventually got up from where I was, then knew in an instant I was supposed to fly. I began walking toward the door, thinking I would have to open the door to get outside to the deck. I knew instantly this wasn't necessary, since I could walk right through the door. As soon as I did walk through the door, I jumped up into the air and was flying. There were a few more minor details that happened after this.

I never re-entered my body, but came back to waking consciousness in my body. I know it wasn't a dream because I never remember my dreams. I didn't feel this experience was unusual or magickal, as in "ewwww! scary." I believe it is an innate ability contained within our psyche. It was the most indescribable feeling. The feeling of lightness and weightless can not be explained. Anyway, I took this as a very good sign to continue my investigations in this area.

Prior to this, I had only had one other OOBE in my life some years ago. That experience lasted 5 minutes, when I had risen up off my bed to the ceiling. I don't know whether I was in the astral in the previous experience or not.

So how's that? Not bad for an atheist of some period of years now?

[Tsuchimaru]

You go to a movie theatre. You sit down and enjoy the incredible sound, the spectacular visuals that are taking place on the screen in front of you and the speakers all around you. It's an impressive experience given to us by 21st century technology. Computers, sophisticated materials and alloys, and complex electronics and machinery all are combined to make this experience an unforgettable one.

But all of that pales in comparison to an OBE. Stop and think about it. If you had an OBE, what would you be seeing? You would be floating through the air, flying through different three dimensional worlds all holographically projected for the most incredible visual experience that one can imagine.

Was this done with 21st century technology? No. This was done through a supposedly primitive animal brain built through random processes? Why would evolution build a flight simulator technologically beyond current 21st century science?

Of course, you can believe and think what you want. But don't ask me to believe that in a few million years this sort of supercomputer was built by simple Monte Carlo simulations. The power of this biochemical machine is beyond any of our wildest imagination's and won't fit easily and nicely into any simple mechanistic model...

Pixar would love to have the computing power of the human brain, but that is decades off. Stop and think about it. It will be decades before combined and closely guided human effort can even come close to achieving what the human brain does with a yawn and a smile...

Wow....I can do that! I belive it was called "dreaming" or something.... ;)

[Whisper9999]

I have been in a period of atheism for some years. However, beginning last November, I begin to reopen my investigations into alternate paths, which I had begun 20 years ago. I am presently investigating Wicca VERY strongly. But, I am still atheist. How can this be? Due to some issues from my past, I tend to interpret most things from a psychological standpoint. Therefore, I don't see any religion as objectively "real," but interpret religious experiences as products of the psyche, ie, subjectively "real."

So, in November 2003, I began to investigate different deities and felt a strong pull towards Thoth. I beginning reading everything I could about this entity, and received a Thoth statue as a gift. In late April, I attended my first pagan event, which was a Beltane celebration locally. The wednesday after that weekend, I began to meditate and entered the astral. I know this for a fact, since I was aware of what was happening and directing things, unlike when I dream. It was bizarre in that, I wouldn't know what I was supposed to do next, but the thought would be inserted into my mind instantly.

When I first "came to" in the astral, I knew there was this entity in the room with me, although I never saw him. I know it was Thoth, appearring exactly as the statue, even though I never saw him. I had asked for him to join me before I began this meditation. He was at least twice the size of the room, with his waist hitting a little higher than the ceiling. Anyway, I eventually got up from where I was, then knew in an instant I was supposed to fly. I began walking toward the door, thinking I would have to open the door to get outside to the deck. I knew instantly this wasn't necessary, since I could walk right through the door. As soon as I did walk through the door, I jumped up into the air and was flying. There were a few more minor details that happened after this.

I never re-entered my body, but came back to waking consciousness in my body. I know it wasn't a dream because I never remember my dreams. I didn't feel this experience was unusual or magickal, as in "ewwww! scary." I believe it is an innate ability contained within our psyche. It was the most indescribable feeling. The feeling of lightness and weightless can not be explained. Anyway, I took this as a very good sign to continue my investigations in this area.

Prior to this, I had only had one other OOBE in my life some years ago. That experience lasted 5 minutes, when I had risen up off my bed to the ceiling. I don't know whether I was in the astral in the previous experience or not.

So how's that? Not bad for an atheist of some period of years now?

Now, this has got me really curious. I'm genuinely interested: why do you want to call yourself an atheist still? I realize there's a lot of flexibility in what an atheist means depending on the definition of strong/weak/etc. But you're clearly not a atheist in the public's general sense of the word.

Do you still like the word atheist because it suggest healthy skepticism? If so, why not just call yourself a "skeptic" or a "seeker" or something like what? Just wondering...

[Whisper9999]

Wow....I can do that! I belive it was called "dreaming" or something.... ;)

Good point! Some dreams are incredible. I've never had a lucid dream, but they are almost as powerful from the visual standpoint of course, although you're not flying through a multidimensional world...

[SweetIsTheTruth]

But you're clearly not a atheist in the public's general sense of the word.

Do you still like the word atheist because it suggest healthy skepticism? If so, why not just call yourself a "skeptic" or a "seeker" or something like what? Just wondering...I am still atheist. I don't believe deity exists or can be proven in objective reality. Let me ask you this. Do you believe in a guardian angel or higher power? This would be the part of yourself that always knows what is the right course of action to take in a given situation. That still quiet voice within us all. If I understand this correctly, this is the exact same thing the psychologists call the super-consciousness. If we believe the psychologists, the scientists who have investigated this, then this is where the conception of deity arrises from within us and why it keeps appearing in people throughout history. To me, it is strictly a psychological process. I do not believe in deities in an objective sense, but only in the subjective sense. Think of when you dream. Your subconscious communicates to you in symbols, right? Those dreams symbols may not automatically make sense at first, right? Deity is just another symbol to the subconscious. Your subconscious will use whatever symbols available to it to communicate with you.

May I guess where your curiousity springs from? Would it happen to be from my other posts here, particularly those you recently responded to? If so, know that I do see value in Christianity in a subjective sense, in a metaphorical & allegorical sense, but most definitely not to be considered literally true, for me, I mean. I don't speak for how others view it, nor can I dictate how others should view it.

I know someone who began on an alternate religious path 20 years ago. He debated which of two deities to follow at first, with those being Vishnu or Thoth. He chose Thoth. After 20 years on this path, Thoth was revealed to be his guardian angel, higher power, super-consciousness, or whatever you wish to call it. Considering this, along with what the psychologists know, this suggest to me it would not have mattered which deity he chose when he began. The psyche would work with whichever diety in the same way, no matter which deity was chosen.

So from what I understand, atheism is the lack of belief in deity. I don't believe diety exists outside of ourselves, but is a function of our own psyches. This fits the definition of athiest, as far as I know. Understand that everything contained in this post, is how I see this and how I understand it at this present time. At no point in this post am I saying that all these things will be true for others. All of these things are how I view it only.

[Whisper9999]

I am still atheist. I don't believe deity exists or can be proven in objective reality. Let me ask you this. Do you believe in a guardian angel or higher power? This would be the part of yourself that always knows what is the right course of action to take in a given situation. That still quiet voice within us all. If I understand this correctly, this is the exact same thing the psychologists call the super-consciousness. If we believe the psychologists, the scientists who have investigated this, then this is where the conception of deity arrises from within us and why it keeps appearing in people throughout history. To me, it is strictly a psychological process. I do not believe in deities in an objective sense, but only in the subjective sense. Think of when you dream. Your subconscious communicates to you in symbols, right? Those dreams symbols may not automatically make sense at first, right? Deity is just another symbol to the subconscious. Your subconscious will use whatever symbols available to it to communicate with you.

May I guess where your curiousity springs from? Would it happen to be from my other posts here, particularly those you recently responded to? If so, know that I do see value in Christianity in a subjective sense, in a metaphorical & allegorical sense, but most definitely not to be considered literally true, for me, I mean. I don't speak for how others view it, nor can I dictate how others should view it.

I know someone who began on an alternate religious path 20 years ago. He debated which of two deities to follow at first, with those being Vishnu or Thoth. He chose Thoth. After 20 years on this path, Thoth was revealed to be his guardian angel, higher power, super-consciousness, or whatever you wish to call it. Considering this, along with what the psychologists know, this suggest to me it would not have mattered which deity he chose when he began. The psyche would work with whichever diety in the same way, no matter which deity was chosen.

So from what I understand, atheism is the lack of belief in deity. I don't believe diety exists outside of ourselves, but is a function of our own psyches. This fits the definition of athiest, as far as I know. Understand that everything contained in this post, is how I see this and how I understand it at this present time. At no point in this post am I saying that all these things will be true for others. All of these things are how I view it only.

Gotcha. That's what I figured.

But here's what I'm wondering: are you thinking the universe is kind of "Deanna Troy-ish" if you will, i.e. that there are "extradimensional", "supernatural" occurrences that defy current understandings of physics yet occur outside of traditional theism/deism?

And I'm curious because I've been running, anecdotally of course, into more technical/analytical types that are going down this path. I find them abandoning, again anecdotally, the traditional "Darwin Centennial" type of materialism of the 50's and replacing it with a kind of pantheistic, Jungain-esque type of view of reality.

Just wondering if that's where you were going as well...

[Velvet]

I feel too firmly planted in my body to have a OBE. I don't know for certain if the do or don't happen.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

that there are "extradimensional", "supernatural" occurrences that defy current understandings of physics yet occur outside of traditional theism/deism?

Just wondering if that's where you were going as well...My first instinct is to say no, this is not what I am thinking, but only because you mention the supernatural and things outside of our current understandings of physics. Let me try to explain it this way. Before man understood electricity, he might have called it occult. Before we understand astral experiences, or OOBE, we call them occult. I say astral experiences are normal, ordinary occurrences, that are a natural function of our brain, in the same way that electricity is a normal, natural occurrence. We can call it occult or supernatural or outside the world of physics, simply because we don't understand it. But that is not how I see it. What I am trying to say here is, just because we don't yet have scientific data to explain these things, does not mean my first instinct is to jump to a supernatural explanation or laws which exist outside of physics, to explain it.

[Erebus]

Actually, many NDErs have seen and verified objects and occurrences in their surroundings that would not have been possible from their vantage point. These are well-documented and the researchers are well-qualified.

Prove it.

[Shanti]

Prove it. Watch the science channel. They have had some very interesting shows on through the years.

[Whisper9999]

My first instinct is to say no, this is not what I am thinking, but only because you mention the supernatural and things outside of our current understandings of physics. Let me try to explain it this way. Before man understood electricity, he might have called it occult. Before we understand astral experiences, or OOBE, we call them occult. I say astral experiences are normal, ordinary occurrences, that are a natural function of our brain, in the same way that electricity is a normal, natural occurrence. We can call it occult or supernatural or outside the world of physics, simply because we don't understand it. But that is not how I see it. What I am trying to say here is, just because we don't yet have scientific data to explain these things, does not mean my first instinct is to jump to a supernatural explanation or laws which exist outside of physics, to explain it.

Gotcha.

[Whisper9999]

Prove it.

The researchers in the NDE arena are almost all top level: M.D.'s, clinical psychologists and the like. I know some people picture the researchers to be "wacky Christians" like myself. :) But that's not the case at all: almost all are non-Christians.

Any decent book on NDE's - and there are several - will give examples. Mindsight is a book with a different twist that shows some NDE experiences on the blind are not explainable by science, at least at this point.

And, again, I'm not trying to rigorously and mathematically prove anything. Neither side can do that. But I am saying there's good solid evidence documented from qualitifed researchers that some NDE experiences cannot be explained by simple "brain stimulation/starvation" hypotheses.

[Radocs]

The researchers in the NDE arena are almost all top level: M.D.'s, clinical psychologists and the like. I know some people picture the researchers to be "wacky Christians" like myself. :) But that's not the case at all: almost all are non-Christians.

Any decent book on NDE's - and there are several - will give examples. Mindsight is a book with a different twist that shows some NDE experiences on the blind are not explainable by science, at least at this point.

And, again, I'm not trying to rigorously and mathematically prove anything. Neither side can do that. But I am saying there's good solid evidence documented from qualitifed researchers that some NDE experiences cannot be explained by simple "brain stimulation/starvation" hypotheses.

I believe he's looking for specific names and sources.

[SH-AA]

You go to a movie theatre. You sit down and enjoy the incredible sound, the spectacular visuals that are taking place on the screen in front of you and the speakers all around you. It's an impressive experience given to us by 21st century technology. Computers, sophisticated materials and alloys, and complex electronics and machinery all are combined to make this experience an unforgettable one.

But all of that pales in comparison to an OBE. Stop and think about it. If you had an OBE, what would you be seeing? You would be floating through the air, flying through different three dimensional worlds all holographically projected for the most incredible visual experience that one can imagine.

Was this done with 21st century technology? No. This was done through a supposedly primitive animal brain built through random processes? Why would evolution build a flight simulator technologically beyond current 21st century science?

Of course, you can believe and think what you want. But don't ask me to believe that in a few million years this sort of supercomputer was built by simple Monte Carlo simulations. The power of this biochemical machine is beyond any of our wildest imagination's and won't fit easily and nicely into any simple mechanistic model...

Pixar would love to have the computing power of the human brain, but that is decades off. Stop and think about it. It will be decades before combined and closely guided human effort can even come close to achieving what the human brain does with a yawn and a smile...
Ummm... Did that have a point... Errr, are you just trying to talk big?

[Whisper9999]

I believe he's looking for specific names and sources.

Sorry, but I'm not doing someone's homework for them. Anyone who is genuinely interested - which I think is only me - will take the time to research it. I've been burned before by materialists on this. I spend an hour or two looking up sources and then get ridiculed for doing so. Been there, done that...

If anyone has an open mind and $25, he can head down to Barnes and Noble or Borders and find one of several books that will show what I am talking about. And I encourage anyone that's even mildly interested to do so: it's an interesting read even if you don't accept the idea that there is an afterlife and/or a spiritual component to our existence.

I seriously doubt that you'll regret it...

[Whisper9999]

Ummm... Did that have a point... Errr, are you just trying to talk big?

Yeah, I had a point and I'm sorry you missed it...

[NarYave]

Here's a question or three. Did the person who started this thread intend on research, or proving to others it being not possible? Second, did he really do any research to find out about people who have had these experiences? Third, There are things unexplained in this world, what does being an athiest have to do with leaving your body, because that really doesn't make any sence?
Just a thought you are curious I get that I appauld that, but did you ever stop to think why am I athiest in a Pagan Chat room. LOL just kidding ;)

[SH-AA]

Yeah, I had a point and I'm sorry you missed it...
I know you meant to, but it had no relvance, and came out as extremely arrogant if you ask me. I just don't get why people get angry when I refuse to believe in something without evidence.

Anyways, I have looked into sites talking about supposed physic abilities, such as psipog.net for an example, and evidence is still lacking, it's simply people making unsupported absoloutes about how the Human mind works. It figures you'd assume I hadn't. :bigblue:

Besides, you're making the claim, you support it. If anybody is not fufilling their "job" here, it's you.

But of course, if you don't want to, then you don't have to, and I'll drop the subject.

[SH-AA]

Here's a question or three. Did the person who started this thread intend on research, or proving to others it being not possible? Second, did he really do any research to find out about people who have had these experiences? Third, There are things unexplained in this world, what does being an athiest have to do with leaving your body, because that really doesn't make any sence?
Just a thought you are curious I get that I appauld that, but did you ever stop to think why am I athiest in a Pagan Chat room. LOL just kidding ;)
You're right there, being an Atheist allows you to believe in OBE, because Atheism isn't a dogma. However, I am also what I see people refer to on religion/spirituality boards as a "hardcore sketpic". You see, my Atheism isn't really important to me and myself, but society makes such a big deal out of it.

[Erebus]

The researchers in the NDE arena are almost all top level: M.D.'s, clinical psychologists and the like. I know some people picture the researchers to be "wacky Christians" like myself. :) But that's not the case at all: almost all are non-Christians.

Any decent book on NDE's - and there are several - will give examples. Mindsight is a book with a different twist that shows some NDE experiences on the blind are not explainable by science, at least at this point.

And, again, I'm not trying to rigorously and mathematically prove anything. Neither side can do that. But I am saying there's good solid evidence documented from qualitifed researchers that some NDE experiences cannot be explained by simple "brain stimulation/starvation" hypotheses.

Yet again, prove it. Show me your "evidence". I'm not going to do your work for you. If you can't support your side of the argument, you shouldn't be making it.

Let me try saying it this way:
Post Proof or Retract.

[NarYave]

You're right there, being an Atheist allows you to believe in OBE, because Atheism isn't a dogma. However, I am also what I see people refer to on religion/spirituality boards as a "hardcore sketpic". You see, my Atheism isn't really important to me and myself, but society makes such a big deal out of it.

Nothing against you or anything like that, but I perticulary feel that believing in nothing makes life so boring. Mind if I ask why you choose no Dogma?

[NarYave]

Yet again, prove it. Show me your "evidence". I'm not going to do your work for you. If you can't support your side of the argument, you shouldn't be making it.

Let me try saying it this way:
Post Proof or Retract.

You seem like you are coming off with anger. Maybe your not, Whisper is simply stating something she knows. Thats what was ask for.

[SH-AA]

Nothing against you or anything like that, but I perticulary feel that believing in nothing makes life so boring. Mind if I ask why you choose no Dogma?
What makes you think I believe in nothing? Are you telling me there's nothing more to believe in than gods?

[Radocs]

Nothing against you or anything like that, but I perticulary feel that believing in nothing makes life so boring. Mind if I ask why you choose no Dogma?

I know this wasn't directed toward me, but I felt I could offer a bit of insight. Not veryone places such importance on spiritual or "supernatural" (whatever you want to call it) matters. I, personally, have no use for those things but still lead a pretty interesting life. :)

[Keith Dragon]

You go to a movie theatre. You sit down and enjoy the incredible sound, the spectacular visuals that are taking place on the screen in front of you and the speakers all around you. It's an impressive experience given to us by 21st century technology. Computers, sophisticated materials and alloys, and complex electronics and machinery all are combined to make this experience an unforgettable one.

But all of that pales in comparison to an OBE. Stop and think about it. If you had an OBE, what would you be seeing? You would be floating through the air, flying through different three dimensional worlds all holographically projected for the most incredible visual experience that one can imagine.

Was this done with 21st century technology? No. This was done through a supposedly primitive animal brain built through random processes? Why would evolution build a flight simulator technologically beyond current 21st century science?

Of course, you can believe and think what you want. But don't ask me to believe that in a few million years this sort of supercomputer was built by simple Monte Carlo simulations. The power of this biochemical machine is beyond any of our wildest imagination's and won't fit easily and nicely into any simple mechanistic model...

Pixar would love to have the computing power of the human brain, but that is decades off. Stop and think about it. It will be decades before combined and closely guided human effort can even come close to achieving what the human brain does with a yawn and a smile...
This is true, there is nothing, and I repeat nothing like the experience of an O.B.E. However, OBEs are the most difficult human ability to control, and it takes years and years of practice. Yes, you spontaneously do them, but to actually control them to the point of scientifically experimenting takes someone that trully can control them.

I've been working with them for 20 years, and only as recently as 5 years ago made any progress in control. There are ways to harness this ability, but it takes someone trully committed to learning how to do it.

If you want to do an OBE just to joy ride and gallavant around the Universe, you won't be able to do it, you Ego works as a failsafe device to keep you from misusing spiritual abilities.

However, there was a time when I personally did not know if OBEs were real or just a figment of my imagination. But I took a positive approach to both sides of that coin. If it were true, then great, if not, the experiences still were phenomenal, and I would still do them as much as I could and consider the expereince as an advanced form of dreaming, above Lucid Dreaming, with complete awareness.

So, one night, I found myself in an OBE, and I was in Limbo, or the state of being half in, and half out of your body. You can move your arms and legs, but the torso is still connected. If you open your eyes, you will notice that where you feel your arms and legs are not where they physically are, and if you wave you have in front of your face, you will see your hands as white shimmering light.

Anyway, I found myself in this state, which I call the Edge of My Soul, and noticed that my familiar was lying next to me. No when I find myself in this state, I explore my body with my Astral Hands, that means I probe into my body with the hands to feel what the insides feel like, and have documented many subjective experiments about the energy in different organs, primarily the heart and the brain. To hold you heart in your astral hands is quite an experience. You litereally feel the pulsating within your hands. But that is nothing in comparison to ramming your hands into you Pineal Gland, Try It.

So, there I was, in this state with my familiar next to me, so I decided to stick my hand into the cat, and I swear, I never saw a cat jump so high and so far, with such a loud noise, and it knocked of everything that could be knocked onto the floor along its path. That was the experience that confirmed at least for me, that I was on the right track, and there was something more to it.

Now, I know you all want objective evidence, but what would that do for you? Honestly. Would you be more inclined to study it, or would you still brush it off? It doesn't matter. OBE have to be found by the individual in their own way, and trying to describe an OBE to someone that has never had one is like trying to describe making love to a virgin, and it is more than just warm apple pie.

When you reach the point of the Edge of your soul, the sensations you feel make sexual orgasms feel in comparrison to root canals. So, if you do decide to learn about OBEs, understand that it will ruin your sex life. How so? Because a sexual orgasm cannot life up to the true rapture of a spiritual orgasm. That is unless, you find someone else that can do the same thing, and I can assure you, there aren't many.

Dragon

[Erebus]

You seem like you are coming off with anger. Maybe your not, Whisper is simply stating something she knows. Thats what was ask for.

No, she's making a dubious assertion with nothing to back it up. She expects the rest of us to go out and make her argument for her because she doesn't actually HAVE any evidence and can't be bothered to try to find any. She just "knows" it's out there, and if we don't go on a wild goose chase for it, well, we're just closed-minded. I argue with Christian Creationists who say "Of course there's evidence for Christian Creationism! Go look it up!", and I treat them the same way.

In short: If you expect anyone to take your claim seriously, back it up. If you don't actually care if anyone believes your claim or not, don't back it up, but... why are you making it in the first place?

[NarYave]

What makes you think I believe in nothing? Are you telling me there's nothing more to believe in than gods?

Well, thats pretty much what I was asking. My fiance thinks that even being an athiest would make him believe something. For he doesn't want to believe in anything. Hence my saying "boring"

[NarYave]

I know this wasn't directed toward me, but I felt I could offer a bit of insight. Not veryone places such importance on spiritual or "supernatural" (whatever you want to call it) matters. I, personally, have no use for those things but still lead a pretty interesting life. :)

:) Thats what I wanted to know! I perticulary feel that I need the Gods. I am a rather open minded person and always say Believe what you want as long as you have something. Like I said in my other post, He believes in absolutely nothing, Except a few things that are rather materialistic. :doh2:

[NarYave]

No, she's making a dubious assertion with nothing to back it up. She expects the rest of us to go out and make her argument for her because she doesn't actually HAVE any evidence and can't be bothered to try to find any. She just "knows" it's out there, and if we don't go on a wild goose chase for it, well, we're just closed-minded. I argue with Christian Creationists who say "Of course there's evidence for Christian Creationism! Go look it up!", and I treat them the same way.

In short: If you expect anyone to take your claim seriously, back it up. If you don't actually care if anyone believes your claim or not, don't back it up, but... why are you making it in the first place?

You're Right we cannot prove Creation. We cannot prove the Gods exist. All i want to know is how I feel they have done for me. I know I for one would not be here Today If it weren't for something Keeping me here and Alive.

[equinox2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SH-AAWhat makes you think I believe in nothing? Are you telling me there's nothing more to believe in than gods?

NarYave wrote:
Well, thats pretty much what I was asking.

Like Radocs, I might be able to offer some insight too. I don’t believe in anything without good evidence, and that includes gods, divination, etc. However, taking a dogmatically materialist approach and not allowing fun ideas (like holidays, gods, and elements) to be used AS METAPHORS could indeed be boring. So I use these other ideas as metaphors as part of a naturalistic spirituality. I find it very exciting and fun (see my quote from Ben T. below). A couple of site may be of use in understanding how this can be fulfilling and fun:

www.pantheism.net and my own brief description of my path at www.naturalpagan.org

It’s surprising how many Pagans have a similar approach. I’m happy in the company of the more supernatural type of Pagans too – neither of us tells the other “you are wrong, and are going to Hell for it”. We can all have different “best guesses” about reality, and still enjoy the same rituals – some see them as literal, some see them as metaphors.

Blessed be-

P.S. I’m hoping in the near future to try some Astral projection. I’ve heard that it is useful evidence that may make me reconsider my denial of the supernatural. We’ll see.

P. P. S. NarYave, you might want to point out my path to your husband. It may allow him to enjoy and join in your spirituality without changing his beliefs.

[Whisper9999]

This is true, there is nothing, and I repeat nothing like the experience of an O.B.E. However, OBEs are the most difficult human ability to control, and it takes years and years of practice. Yes, you spontaneously do them, but to actually control them to the point of scientifically experimenting takes someone that trully can control them.

I've been working with them for 20 years, and only as recently as 5 years ago made any progress in control. There are ways to harness this ability, but it takes someone trully committed to learning how to do it.

..............

When you reach the point of the Edge of your soul, the sensations you feel make sexual orgasms feel in comparrison to root canals. So, if you do decide to learn about OBEs, understand that it will ruin your sex life. How so? Because a sexual orgasm cannot life up to the true rapture of a spiritual orgasm. That is unless, you find someone else that can do the same thing, and I can assure you, there aren't many.

Dragon

The first part of your post is interesting to me. Back in my pre-Christian days, I tried unsuccessfully a "cookbook" methodology to achieve this. I didn't have any success until one night I watched a movie that had heavy "spiritual overtones" shall we say. That night when I went to sleep I felt myself being forced into the pre-OOB trance state - I'm sure you know what I mean by pre-OOB - and completely out of control.

I felt strongly I was being forced into this as it was completely unwilling and broke out of it successfully although it took a good five minutes of intense effort - again, I'm sure you know what I mean. It was one of many things that drove me away from this sort of path. I felt strongly that I was being spiritually "abused" although I certainly cannot prove it.

But I guess I'll just put in my two cents that it would seem that external forces can accelerate the process if they want to. Your mention of a familiar has made me wonder if another entity has to generally coax this process along as well?

[Keith Dragon]

The first part of your post is interesting to me. Back in my pre-Christian days, I tried unsuccessfully a "cookbook" methodology to achieve this. I didn't have any success until one night I watched a movie that had heavy "spiritual overtones" shall we say. That night when I went to sleep I felt myself being forced into the pre-OOB trance state - I'm sure you know what I mean by pre-OOB - and completely out of control.

I felt strongly I was being forced into this as it was completely unwilling and broke out of it successfully although it took a good five minutes of intense effort - again, I'm sure you know what I mean. It was one of many things that drove me away from this sort of path. I felt strongly that I was being spiritually "abused" although I certainly cannot prove it.

But I guess I'll just put in my two cents that it would seem that external forces can accelerate the process if they want to. Your mention of a familiar has made me wonder if another entity has to generally coax this process along as well?
When I was a teenager, I would experience sleep paralysis. And in this state, it feels as if you are expiencing the same thing. It wasn't until years later I realized that this was just the threshold to OBEs, atleast one of them. I would panic cause it felt as if some spirit was sitting on my chest, keeping me from waking up, so I know what you mean, and it is quite frightening. After I learned meditation, the next time I found myself in that state, I decided what the heck, and meditated instead of fought the paralysis. I began, after a few breathes, to feel myself floating as if half in water, and half out of water. I also felt my body comletely energized, and could feel the flows of energy surrounding me, as well as a slight buzzing in the ears, and pressure on my chest. After a few attempts at this, I found I was able to consciously release my astral hands and arms, and legs from the physical body. Also, for a side note, on one of my journeys, I caught a glimpse or a sensation of another body that exists beyond the astral.

My first true experience with an OBE was when I was laying on my couch taking a nap. In the dream I was having, I came upon a door, and when I went through it, it jolted me awake. I heard buzzing in my ears, and thought it was a mosquito, so I went to brush it away with my hand. I pulled my hand towards my face, and it ended up going through my face and into my head ending up near the ears. I also noticed that as I brought my hands closer to my ears, the buzzing increased. When I pulled them away the buzzing lessened. I then opened my eyes, and saw my hands sitting at my sides, and not where I felt them to be.

As for the whole process, it is completely dependant of yourself. Guides will come and help you, but you have to ask them first. I had a guide that came to me by the name of Daniel who tried to help me, and I saw him and asked him to help me by pulling me out. He tried, and I literally felt him pulling me. He then stopped and informed me that he couldn't because of a past wound that still needs to be healed. Apparently, I had a wound in the heart area from a war I died in in a past life, and it was keeping me from consciously leaving. Now at this time, I could only get my arms and legs out, but had difficulty with the chest, I now knew why.

Also note, what I speak of does not happen in dreams, as you well know. This is literal conscious awareness in an awakened astral state, which is similar but more in reality than lucid dreams. Lucid dreams are the virtual reality where you can learn to do this. It is a practice room, and playground all the same. In the state of Lucid Dreaming, you can practice all kinds of things, like teleportation, telepathy, levitation, as well as psi-balls. You can feel the energy connecting you to everything, but most importantly, it is the training ground for your Free Will. When you get to the point of complete Dream Control, you have complete control of your Free Will, and the Ego no longer does.

Sorry I went on and on. I just do not get to talk about these things much. I understand them better when I get to talk about them with people.

Thanks Dragon

[SH-AA]

:) Thats what I wanted to know! I perticulary feel that I need the Gods. I am a rather open minded person and always say Believe what you want as long as you have something. Like I said in my other post, He believes in absolutely nothing, Except a few things that are rather materialistic. :doh2:
By what standards? By the ones set my religion as a moral self-defense mechanism?

I find religion (or maybe the proper term for people here is Supernatural Spiritual Path, whatever you perfer) to be very self-demeaning and pessimistic. Even if it doesn't project that image, I haven't yet to find a form of deity belief that doesn't demand Spiritual self-mutilation of some sort. You know, the old messages "You're not good enough for god/gods", "we're all inherity impure", "you are not good enough as a Human being, live up to devine standards and practices", "you must become enlightened to be the best you can", "You're ego and self are evil, throw them away and join a greater cause". I just see so many people (wheather Christian, Pagan, or whatevertheheckyouare) acting like this is such a positive attitude, when on the other hand, it makes me sick.

That's how I view it. Hope I answered your questions now, misunderstandings cleared up?

[Erebus]

So, uh, Whisper? Still waiting to see your links or articles or scholarly papers on the subject.

Not holding my breath for them, you understand, but waiting nevertheless.

[Whisper9999]

.....it is the training ground for your Free Will. When you get to the point of complete Dream Control, you have complete control of your Free Will, and the Ego no longer does.


Well, I think you know I'm coming at a lot of this from a very different worldview. But, for the record, much of what you said in the beginning nailed what happened. But I'm just wondering why you don't usually share more about this? Is, for example, the pagan community often closed to the supernatural? Or is it just that it never comes up?

And I've always wondered why so few people have any curiosity about the spiritual side of existence. That is something I will never understand. As marvelous as our 4D world is, it obviously compares nothing to the spiritual realm and yet most people don't even want to think about it. I find that even in the Christian community. But I have a bad habit of sidetracking threads, so I'll shut up...

By the way, did you know that OBE's could potentially fit into the extradimensionality of String Theory? Well, in a way...

[Whisper9999]

So, uh, Whisper? Still waiting to see your links or articles or scholarly papers on the subject.

Not holding my breath for them, you understand, but waiting nevertheless.

Sorry, I realized something when I was talking to you guys. I have had some very nasty debates with materialists. You'll have to trust me that I'm pretty mild-mannered and these guys were just vicious: blaspheming, trash-talking, cussing and swearing. (Yes, I know Christians can get ugly too...)

I'm not saying you guys are like that, but I am saying that I still have a knee-jerk reaction to atheistic arguments because of that. It's going to take me awhile to recover from some of those "discussions". A couple more years of therapy and I should be fine.

Plus, something I have learned is that atheists very, very rarely admit in even the smallest way that you may have a point or at least that your argument is rational. There's a difference, and it's hard to describe, between someone who is a skeptic and someone who is a philosophical atheist.

Again, I'm not saying you guys are like that - don't know you. But I'm willing to back off my point so I don't go AWOL over something unintended. If someone doesn't believe in OBE's, that's fine...no biggee. I understand the arguments about ketamine and all that already...

Peace

[Keith Dragon]

Well, I think you know I'm coming at a lot of this from a very different worldview.
What world view, just curious?


But I'm just wondering why you don't usually share more about this? Is, for example, the pagan community often closed to the supernatural? Or is it just that it never comes up?
I do share it as much as people find interest in hearing what I have to share. However, most people are skeptical, and what a little sideshow to prove it to them. If you get a chance, read Richard Bach's "Illusions". It is about a modern day, reluctant messiah. He can do all these miracle, and has figured out how to teach people, but noone seems interested in learning it, they just want to see the side show miracles, and ohh and ahh, like watch a fireworks display.

It is also difficult talking about OBEs to people that do not comprehend what one is. And unfortunately, most of the books out there are fru-fru, likem ost of the dream books. I have yet to find a decent dream book that isn't fluffy, or New Age-ee. People seem more interested in having Dreams interpreted than learning Dream Control where dreams become a wonderful virtual reality for you to experiment in with aspects of spirit. I feel that anything that can be done in Dreams can be done in Realtime. Plus, Dream control gives you a real sens of control over your Will.

I've also been looking for a teacher, but most I find that speak of OBEs, after a few moments of talking with them, I find that they really don't know more than the basics, and don't understand the scientific aspect of it, and how, like you said, it ties into String Theory. Also, as a side, I wrote a paper on how Astrology can be explained through String Theory, where human consciousness at birth is a recording device that records the energy states of that particular moment in time.

I think one of the main problems is too many peopl or unsure of themselves, and their spirituality. They have doubts as to their true being. I've had too many spiritual experiences and synchronicities for one human to have to have any more doubts about it. I don't know what that 'IT' is, but I know it exists, and what it isn't.


And I've always wondered why so few people have any curiosity about the spiritual side of existence. That is something I will never understand. As marvelous as our 4D world is, it obviously compares nothing to the spiritual realm and yet most people don't even want to think about it. I find that even in the Christian community. But I have a bad habit of sidetracking threads, so I'll shut up...
I agree, even yesterday, I had a car with the standard jesus Fish Symbol on the back, cut me off on the road, and I honked, and he gave me the finger. Real Christian if you ask me.

But, if you have noticed, there is a growing hunger for the spiritual. It is starting to find it's way into art, and art is always the barometer of the human consciousness. Music, movies, shows, painting, almost everything is finding a resurgence of spiritual motifs, not necessarily religious, but spiritual none the less. There is a hunger for it, the problem is we look at the everyday person and doubt it, we look at the negatives. But if you look at those that are trully Seeking, you will find a growing number of them. This is partly evident in the success of the Wayne Dyers, and Deepak Chopras, and James Redfields. However, I don't think humans have figured it out yet, they still feel there is only one way to the Universal, and not the Infinite numbers of ways. There will never be peace through One Religion, but only through One Understanding that all religions have a piece to the Universal Puzzle. The more we try to make everyone the same, the further we move from the Divine, for the Divine exists in Diversity.


By the way, did you know that OBE's could potentially fit into the extradimensionality of String Theory? Well, in a way...
I have an idea of this, but would love to here your interpretation, so shoot away...

Dragon

[equinox2]

Whisper9999 wrote:


There's a difference, and it's hard to describe, between someone who is a skeptic and someone who is a philosophical atheist.

Hi Whisper – it looks like you found a place where we can agree for once (which is nice because I respect you and it is a little bumpy to be always disagreeing).

I’m an Atheist (or at least that's my best guess) if one restricts “God” to mean the god of the Bible, and Agnostic if one instead defines “God” in a very open-ended way (like Panentheism). I’m a theist if one defines “God” in a Pantheistic way.

I think that the fact that we can experience anything – like say, the color green, doesn’t fit into a purely materialistic worldview. Though I am Naturalistic in that I won’t believe anything without testable evidence, I agree that dogmatic materialists can miss the point that materialism doesn’t explain consciousness.

I think that the difference you mentioned above may come down to basic assumptions, and whether or not the person is really remembering that no fact in science is 100% certain. Sure, some are 99.9999999% certain (like atomic theory), but nothing gets that 100% level that is needed for dogmatism.

Everyone seems to have basic assumptions that they don’t question – what those basic assumptions are tells more about a person then demographic information like age, sex, etc. (what are yours? - I have two.) You might find the difference you are having trouble describing in what I’ve written here:

Basic Assumptions in story form (the story of Prometheus and the Trilobite):
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjbassump.htm

Basic Assumptions (and the resulting 4 rules needed for Objectivity):
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjobjectv.htm

What do you think?

Oh yeah - Dragon, I agree that people are looking for that spiritual side more and more today.
Have a fun day-

[Imbrium]

Wow!

Threads that I start seem to average around two pages by the time they peeter out. Imagine my surpirse to come back after a fun filled week of cultural geography, and find that this thread is still alive.....:holycow:

Well, hmmmm, in that case, I'm just going to have to go a' diggin for some of the information that has been debated, and maybe cut into some of the issues that I am curious about. .......

Will be back later...gotta run
Imbrium.
oh...off topic slightly...I've heard alot about how obe's relate to string theory, but how about somebody taking a stab at how David Bohm's theory might relate into it all......I really like his stuff. It's my favorite flavor of scientific theory :heyalove:

[Whisper9999]

What world view, just curious?
Pretty much a conservative Christian, although my beliefs about eschatology, hell and charismata take me somewhat out of the mainstream...

He can do all these miracle, and has figured out how to teach people, but noone seems interested in learning it, they just want to see the side show miracles, and ohh and ahh, like watch a fireworks display.
Oh this is so true. The only thing I would add though is that a large block of the population is very afraid as well.

Plus, Dream control gives you a real sens of control over your Will.
You mentioned this. What did you mean exactly?

I wrote a paper on how Astrology can be explained through String Theory, where human consciousness at birth is a recording device that records the energy states of that particular moment in time.
Okay, but I'm sure you get this question from time to time. In fact, this would be the same question I'd have for someone who believed in the Chinese Calendar. Why is there so much variation in human personality and experience within a population on a fixed date (or year(s)) if the heavens have a fixed and powerful influence on all members of that population. Not trying to be inflammatory, but I'm going to have trouble getting to Point B unless you can get me past Point A here (if I made any sense).

I agree, even yesterday, I had a car with the standard jesus Fish Symbol on the back, cut me off on the road, and I honked, and he gave me the finger. Real Christian if you ask me.
I'm really not that bad of a driver, but one time I accidently cut off a truck. It passed me a few miles down the road. The driver gave me the one finger salute as well. I looked up at the vehicle and it was a Goodwill truck. Goodwill, my arse!

But, if you have noticed, there is a growing hunger for the spiritual. It is starting to find it's way into art, and art is always the barometer of the human consciousness. Music, movies, shows, painting, almost everything is finding a resurgence of spiritual motifs, not necessarily religious, but spiritual none the less. There is a hunger for it, the problem is we look at the everyday person and doubt it, we look at the negatives. But if you look at those that are trully Seeking, you will find a growing number of them. This is partly evident in the success of the Wayne Dyers, and Deepak Chopras, and James Redfields.
Yeah, I can see that...

However, I don't think humans have figured it out yet, they still feel there is only one way to the Universal, and not the Infinite numbers of ways. There will never be peace through One Religion, but only through One Understanding that all religions have a piece to the Universal Puzzle. The more we try to make everyone the same, the further we move from the Divine, for the Divine exists in Diversity.
Well, I think you can learn from every religion and every culture. But I'm one of the annoying non-universalists...


By the way, did you know that OBE's could potentially fit into the extradimensionality of String Theory? Well, in a way...

I have an idea of this, but would love to here your interpretation, so shoot away...

I heard once of a bible study with one non-astronomer and a group of astronomers/astronomy students. Someone read the story of Jesus passing through walls post-resurrection and everyone of the astronomers looked at each other and one said, "Extradimensionality!" and they all laughed. The non-astronomer thought to herself, "I am really in the wrong bible study..." As you know, extra dimensions can easily "fold" and pass through other dimensions. The only thing I don't understand is that the other seven dimensions are, I believe, so tightly curled that I'm not sure that's applicable. I'll have to ask about that one someday...

[Whisper9999]

Hi Whisper – it looks like you found a place where we can agree for once (which is nice because I respect you and it is a little bumpy to be always disagreeing).
Yeah, I hate disagreeing. Sometimes it's inevitable of course...

I’m an Atheist (or at least that's my best guess) if one restricts “God” to mean the god of the Bible, and Agnostic if one instead defines “God” in a very open-ended way (like Panentheism). I’m a theist if one defines “God” in a Pantheistic way.
Yeah, it gets very hard to label at times. Yeah, I think Pantheism - even if it's not typically called that - is experiencing a resurgence as is various flavors of Deism. I actually don't find that many 1950's style atheists around, but that's just anecdotal of course.

I think that the fact that we can experience anything – like say, the color green, doesn’t fit into a purely materialistic worldview. Though I am Naturalistic in that I won’t believe anything without testable evidence, I agree that dogmatic materialists can miss the point that materialism doesn’t explain consciousness.
I agree although I would argue that consciousness is just the beginning. For example, if there's one thing you find in science, it's that as each layer is peeled off of the universe, it becomes more and more mysterious - at times even bizarre. And the same thing with the spritual/supernatural realms in my opinion. There is just so much more to life than 4D - I find it unusual that people concentrate on the most narrow aspect of existence so completely.

I think that the difference you mentioned above may come down to basic assumptions, and whether or not the person is really remembering that no fact in science is 100% certain. Sure, some are 99.9999999% certain (like atomic theory), but nothing gets that 100% level that is needed for dogmatism.
Absolutely. Even though I am a universalist, I do recognize that a certain component of my worldview is faith. In other words, I see that is impossible to 100% dogmatically prove my position. Of course, I think I have strong evidence for my position or I wouldn't believe in it. But, that said, I do realize that part of my position is based on faith...

Everyone seems to have basic assumptions that they don’t question – what those basic assumptions are tells more about a person then demographic information like age, sex, etc. (what are yours? - I have two.) You might find the difference you are having trouble describing in what I’ve written here:
Very true. Yes, I have a certain underlying assumption that ties in with theism. One of my core truths: I assume that core truth itself is available and can be attained and assimilated. This is my starting point and is NOT assumed by the majority of Americans. From there, I have many other key assumptions: an intelligent (as opposed unintelligent or non-directed) First Cause, a polarized spiritual realm, etc.

Care to share your two?

Basic Assumptions in story form (the story of Prometheus and the Trilobite):
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu...E/tjbassump.htm
Very true. I agree that one's assumptions can easily pre-determine the outcome.

Basic Assumptions (and the resulting 4 rules needed for Objectivity):
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu...E/tjobjectv.htm

What do you think?
These are all excellent. However, I have a modified #4 that I would follow. #4 in it's purest form of course would not allow a life of faith. Faith, at least by my definition, insists on the acceptance of that which is not certifiably provable. And, for the record, that's actually one of the things I love about the Christian life.

However, I do within certain boundaries require a high degree of open-mindedness. For example, I definitely have no fear of science (unlike many Christians) or of scientific discoveries. Obviously, if my worldview is correct, then God is the author of the universe and so I need have no fear of what science uncovers. In fact, I can take great pleasure in it, which I do. And I'm not a Christian who is afraid of other cultures, of most artistic expression, etc., etc. There is tremendous value in most things even if you don't agree all the way...

[Keith Dragon]

You mentioned this. What did you mean exactly?
Dream control means exactly that, controlling your Dreams and having complete awareness to the point that you begin to control what happens. I'll give you some examples.

First, and foremost, and this ties in with controlling OBEs because your spirit does both in exactly the same manner, but you must learn to find a balance within your mind to sort of hug the Edge between Consciousness and Unconciousness. There is a small veil that exists here, and I call it the Edge of my Soul. It is when that I that is I am, ends, and the rest of the Universe Begins relative to my consciousness. To help with this, meditation is the best practice to help balance and empty your mind, of judgements, fears, panic, etc.

Second, once you can maintain consciousness within a dream, you then can begin to experiment. One time I was standing on a street, and a block away were a group of people. I decided to try teleportation, I closed my eyes, and projected myself to the group, opened my eyes and I was there. Then within the group, there was a girl with long dark hair. I decided I wanted to see what she would look like as a blonde, so I snapped my fingers, and she was a blonde, then again, she was a redhead. Another time, I practice levitation and telekinesis. Then another time, I was creating fireballs with my hands. In doing these, I pay attention to what my body is doing, and in this case, I could feel energy being drawn in from around me, flowing through my body to my mind, and my Will was altering it, than I was flowing it to my hand, and poof, my mind had created a fireball.

Third, take your experiments, and create meditation practices that will incorporate some of the experiments into realtime. I meditate on feeling the energy around me. And in one meditation, I focus awareness on a specific point within my body, then move that awareness point around. I found that I could consciously move that awareness to the minor Chakras in the joints, like the ankles, elbows, wrists, and elbows, which exist within the joint, when I reach that point, it causes my hand, or arm, or leg, or fott, respectively to fall asleep with me remaining conscious, and I begin to feel what I normally feel in an OBE.

That is the basis of Dream Control. It is not about what the symbols mean, it is about taking control of your True Self, which includes your will, and removeing the control of the False Self. In terms of Christianity, this is the Christ Self, and the Anti-Christ Self that we each have within us trying to take control of our will. Now the Anti-Christ Self is not evil manifested, it is just that which keeps us from Spiritually growing, the part about temptation. But it is necessary, otherwise our spiritual growth will not have a driving factor, and the Anti-Christ Self is what really drives us to do good or bad. The Christ Self remains dormant until you acknowledge it, then it slowly wakes up. The problem is that the Anti-Christ Self then become more adamant about driving your temptations, mostly through your Ego. This is what the true Nature of the Islamic Jihad speaks of, the battle within ourselves to take control of ourselves, not the wars the use their Gods name to wage, and CHristians are as guilty of this as they are. I also feel that this is what the book of revelations is truly about, the Apocolypse that occurs within ourselves, and if you have ever noticed. There are Seven Seals that are opened. There are also Seven Chakras within the human body, at least main ones, and the each need to be opened in order to achieve enlightenement, or a connection to the Christ Consciousness. Each time a Chakra is opened, or Seal, evil is released. The mistake is that it is not upon the world, well actually it is, but in the sense that we are releasing it from ourselves, and God obsorbs it through the world around us, and when the Seventh Chakra is opened, Rapture will occur, and I have experienced this in small amounts when I open them within my dreams. Unfornately, like I said, it has ruined my sexlife, because it is 1000 times more ecstatic than a physical orgasm, spiritual orgasms, that is.

Anyway, I'm sure that sparked a bunch of questions. And I really need to start writing all this stuff down. But it helps to have someone that is interested in learning these things, because by explaining it, I understand it better.

Also, to let you know where I come from. I am a follower of Jesus, but I am not a Christian. I look at Jesus as I look at Leonardo da Vinci. They are my mentors on how to connect to the Universal, or Christ Consciousness. I believe Christians loose themselves within their Dogma, and focus too much on the details of what others have said about Jesus, and not what Jesus said himself, of which most stands out to me is this that he said, "All that I do, you will do, and more" I honestly believe that, and my goal is not to worship Jesus, because if I were Jesus, I would not wnat peopl to do that to me, but rather, comprehend my teachings, and come up to my level and be my equal so we can move on to the next big thing, whatever that will be, and I hope it is what I think it is, and that is to create a new Universe free of all the mistakes we experienced here.


Okay, but I'm sure you get this question from time to time. In fact, this would be the same question I'd have for someone who believed in the Chinese Calendar. Why is there so much variation in human personality and experience within a population on a fixed date (or year(s)) if the heavens have a fixed and powerful influence on all members of that population. Not trying to be inflammatory, but I'm going to have trouble getting to Point B unless you can get me past Point A here (if I made any sense).
Because Energy is on the Quantum level and not the Macro level, and is constantly changing from microscopic moment in microscopic place to microscopic moment in microscopic space. This next bit will tie into the "ENERGY" thread that is currently going on, so check it out. But these microscopic occurrances are being driven on the macroscopic level by massive clusters of particles called the planets, the sun, and the moon, the galaxy also has energetic effects on us, but they are not generational, but rather appear in the personalities of the Civilizations, because it takes that long to move through the galaxy, and this is evident in that particular Civilizations culture, mainly artist products.

Now, energy levels fluctuate where every second is different, and where you are in space as well. At a given moment in time, the Energy level in NYC will be different then at Washington DC at the same exact moment. And the next moment right after that moment will be different also. Energy exists as fields driven by the wavefunction of particles. The more massive the particles, like the Sun, the larger the influence within the energy field.

Astrology does not work within miniscule details, but in a macroscopic mapping of the human consicousness. You have to step away from it and not look at the individual pieces, but look at the whole of the system in its entirety. Astrology is not an exact Model of the Universe, but can be used to help science, if you know how to use it. I'm still learning, but these are some of the connections I have been making. Also, thise same energy is what we connect to in our OBEs.

The problem is that most of this works in multiple dimensions, including time as a spatial dimension, because time becomes a spatial dimension within the higher dimensions. I believe some of the dimensions can be seen, but our eyes are not evolved to the point where we can see them, but we are getting there. Believe it or not, Toys help with this. If you recall, those three dimensional drawings where you blurred your eyes and an image appeared out of what looked like ordered chaos. Many people just excepted it as a fad, but in reality, that was a great evolutionary achievement for our conscousness. It began us on the path towards seeing the next dimensions. At least this is my view. The trick is to learn to see the connection between things, first within the physical, then within the spiritual.



Well, I think you can learn from every religion and every culture. But I'm one of the annoying non-universalists...
We each choose our spiritual paths based upon the spiritual tools the give us to answer the questions we have in the present moment. The moment this stops happening, it is time to spiritually evolve. Every religion teaches a lesson, and has different tools for different occasions, and we all need to realize that, or there will never be peace. As yourself, if you were God, what is more important, that we all lived in peace under a Single Understanding, or fought like Hell to live under the roof of a Single Religion. If I were God, which I am, as well as you are. Jesus even said that. But what I would care more for was that we learned to live in peace. And through that peace, we will come to a single Understanding of God, not a religion. Religion is a part of Culture, and for me, I would live to see a single Human Civilization that flourished with a diversity of Culture. It is what makes life exciting. There can be no peace that isn't in violation of Free Will under a single religion, and even God cannot step above Free Will. That is the Universal Law. Honor Free Will, and there is only one Law above that, and that is Honor Creation, no matter what.



I heard once of a bible study with one non-astronomer and a group of astronomers/astronomy students. Someone read the story of Jesus passing through walls post-resurrection and everyone of the astronomers looked at each other and one said, "Extradimensionality!" and they all laughed. The non-astronomer thought to herself, "I am really in the wrong bible study..." As you know, extra dimensions can easily "fold" and pass through other dimensions. The only thing I don't understand is that the other seven dimensions are, I believe, so tightly curled that I'm not sure that's applicable. I'll have to ask about that one someday...
This is what I talk about that each of us are capable of, but it involves having an understanding like I mentioned. Jesus came to destroy Dogma, to teach us that we have a direct connection to the God Consciousness, yet the Religion that started as a cult based upon the teachings of teachings of his teachings created what he was so adamantly opposed to.

In regards to the other dimensions. The next one, or the Fifth Dimensions we already see a glimmer of. And with the que from the word glimmer, I speak of light. It does not follow the same rules that govern other physical matter, in that, I mean, that it is always moving at a constant speed (unless interefered with by man, but only man) no matter what your relative point. For instance, two trains moving towards eachother on parallel tracks at each 50 mph. To each engineer, the other train will appear tobe coming towards them at 100 mph. No if one of these trains was light, and lets assume it is travelling at the same speed of the train it is replacing, that being 50 mph. To the other engineer, the light will appear to be moving at 50 mph, and not the 100 mph. See the difference. This is what has boggled humanity for the past century now. No matter what your relative position and perspective, light will always travel at the same speed relative to that position. This has led many to believe that it is an edge of the next dimension. Now, tie that into we as humans expect our next stage of evolutionary growth to drive us to Homo Luminus, or beings of light. This is where the Rapture leads to. At least until someone shows me otherwise.

[equinox2]

Hi Whisper9999!

Wow, thanks for the interesting response! Here are few comments:


Whisper9999 wrote:


But I'm one of the annoying non-universalists... (in post #94)
(and)

I am a universalist (in post #95)

Typo, it seems. I’m guessing your are NOT a universalist. I think you and I agree that the Bible doesn’t appear to support universalism in most of its books.


Care to share your two?

Sure. They are mentioned at the end of the “Prometheus & Trilobite” story (here is the link again for latecomers. http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjbassump.htm).

My basic assumptions are:

1. I exist, and am conscious.
2. There is a real world, which can be partially understood through our senses and logic.

Everything else I believe, suspect or guess is a conclusion based on my senses and on those two starting basic assumptions (axioms). Nothing else goes unquestioned.

(about my 4 rules of objectivity, here: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjobjectv.htm )

These are all excellent. However, I have a modified #4 that I would follow. #4 in it's purest form of course would not allow a life of faith. Faith, at least by my definition, insists on the acceptance of that which is not certifiably provable.

That makes sense, and explains our different conclusions about the world. I think it is great that both of us recognize this difference in our approaches. I’ve been in so many conversations that never got to this level, and instead got unpleasant.

I won’t slam your version of #4, and you didn’t slam mine. Rock on.
:hahugh:
Have a fun day-

[NarYave]

What is a universalist anyway?
There isn't really a grouth in spirituality, just more people noticing those who do.
I was thinking about this actually. A couple of you Stated why does society put such high regards and such(pedistools to) on Spirituality. Well, it's a good question. Ask yourself this to then. Why we put "pedistools" on Beautiful women, The Jock, the actors, clothing, the most popular, Songs with no meaning, Movies.
I'll give you great examples, lets say I'm a girl that listens to Brittney Spears, I'm the most popular girl in school,work etc... I'm dating the school most atletic jock,movie star(like tom cruise), Model etc... Most people want to be me. In this synaro I only worship money and what clothes I can buy.
And to me this it the worst thing in the world, there are billions of people here that are just like this. It's so fake. Yet society deems this people as what you should fallow. Why are they this way I ask. Because they were raised this way. Weather it be parents teaching to the almighty nanny (tv). I had a friend that believed that the only way to make her self feel better was to buy things. But really makeing it worst because she had n o money. It is sad to me that when I told her that there are better ways she said buzz off.
It's aparent to me you were raised differently than me and I was raised differently than them. But either way we would not be who we are if it weren't for that.

[equinox2]

NarYave wrote:

What is a universalist anyway?

Universalism is the belief that everyone avoids Hell and is saved (Universal salvation). Back in the 1800, there was a Christian denomination called the Universalists who believed that no loving God would cast anyone into Hell. They eventually drifted away from Christianity, and in 1961 joined with the Unitarians to form the Unitarian Universalist (or just UU) church (ok, NarYave can keep picking on me now in this thread too). :)

“Universalist” today means not believing in Hell or believing that all people go to heaven, regardless of your other beliefs. It generally doesn’t mean UU, because one could be universalist and have no other beliefs in common with UU.

Thus, one can be Universalist and still be Christian (though I think it requires one to ignore some of the Bible). Nearly all Christians today are not universalist, and universalism is not supported by any major Christian denomination.

Hopefully that clears things up a bit.

Take care--

[Whisper9999]

Hi Whisper9999!

Wow, thanks for the interesting response! Here are few comments:


Whisper9999 wrote:

(in post #94)
(and)
(in post #95)

Typo, it seems. I’m guessing your are NOT a universalist. I think you and I agree that the Bible doesn’t appear to support universalism in most of its books.



Sure. They are mentioned at the end of the “Prometheus & Trilobite” story (here is the link again for latecomers. http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjbassump.htm).

My basic assumptions are:

1. I exist, and am conscious.
2. There is a real world, which can be partially understood through our senses and logic.

Everything else I believe, suspect or guess is a conclusion based on my senses and on those two starting basic assumptions (axioms). Nothing else goes unquestioned.

(about my 4 rules of objectivity, here: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjobjectv.htm )


That makes sense, and explains our different conclusions about the world. I think it is great that both of us recognize this difference in our approaches. I’ve been in so many conversations that never got to this level, and instead got unpleasant.

I won’t slam your version of #4, and you didn’t slam mine. Rock on.
:hahugh:
Have a fun day-

Can't argue with that. Have a great weekend!

[Whisper9999]

Dream control means exactly that, controlling your Dreams and having complete awareness to the point that you begin to control what happens. I'll give you some examples.

First, and foremost, and this ties in with controlling OBEs because your spirit does both in exactly the same manner, but you must learn to find a balance within your mind to sort of hug the Edge between Consciousness and Unconciousness. There is a small veil that exists here, and I call it the Edge of my Soul. It is when that I that is I am, ends, and the rest of the Universe Begins relative to my consciousness. To help with this, meditation is the best practice to help balance and empty your mind, of judgements, fears, panic, etc.
.....

In regards to the other dimensions. The next one, or the Fifth Dimensions we already see a glimmer of. And with the que from the word glimmer, I speak of light. It does not follow the same rules that govern other physical matter, in that, I mean, that it is always moving at a constant speed (unless interefered with by man, but only man) no matter what your relative point. For instance, two trains moving towards eachother on parallel tracks at each 50 mph. To each engineer, the other train will appear tobe coming towards them at 100 mph. No if one of these trains was light, and lets assume it is travelling at the same speed of the train it is replacing, that being 50 mph. To the other engineer, the light will appear to be moving at 50 mph, and not the 100 mph. See the difference. This is what has boggled humanity for the past century now. No matter what your relative position and perspective, light will always travel at the same speed relative to that position. This has led many to believe that it is an edge of the next dimension. Now, tie that into we as humans expect our next stage of evolutionary growth to drive us to Homo Luminus, or beings of light. This is where the Rapture leads to. At least until someone shows me otherwise.

Wow - you brought up so many theological points that I scarcely know how to comment. Let me just highlight a few of your key doctrines from what I understood:

--There is a True Self or Christ Consciousness.
--Man can gain control of his True Self.
--Man can become god by doing this.
--Kundalini

Here's something to think about: most of these teachings from Pike to Theosophy to Edgar Cayce, etc. have come from channeled knowledge from other beings. What it really boils down to is "what being are you going to believe?" You and I simply accept different sources...

[Keith Dragon]

Here's something to think about: most of these teachings from Pike to Theosophy to Edgar Cayce, etc. have come from channeled knowledge from other beings. What it really boils down to is "what being are you going to believe?" You and I simply accept different sources...
Exactly, that's my point. We get so ties up with thinking there is only one way, that we limit ourselves spiritually, and not open ourselves up to the Universe.

[NarYave]

Exactly, that's my point. We get so ties up with thinking there is only one way, that we limit ourselves spiritually, and not open ourselves up to the Universe.

Thats why I don't go to chruch! lol But that is why I beame pagan.

[Whisper9999]

Exactly, that's my point. We get so ties up with thinking there is only one way, that we limit ourselves spiritually, and not open ourselves up to the Universe.

The problem is this: your assumption presupposes your resolution. What I mean is that there are several explanations for the universe and the religious cornucopia here on our fair planet:

1) Pantheism
2) Polytheism
3) Deism
4) Theism

If #4 is true, and there are many scientific and logical reasons for thinking that theism could be the preferred alternative, then it is very likely that there is only one path, i.e. the path of the Deity that created the entire universe.

Only #1-#3 are likely to have a legitimate "all roads lead to the same path" framework.

So essentially, you certitude is based on the idea that we can assume #4 is false which is highly debatable imo. In fact, I would argue that the situation is quite the opposite of what your are proposing: theism is at its strongest apologetic point in recent history due to the last few decades of scientific research.

[rain_fallen_tears]

I completely believe in OBEs, but thats just me...there has to be something out there, something better, something more...because if there isn't we've been screwed over... and I don't believe that.

So sorry to subject you all to that!

[Keith Dragon]

If #4 is true, and there are many scientific and logical reasons for thinking that theism could be the preferred alternative, then it is very likely that there is only one path, i.e. the path of the Deity that created the entire universe.
There IS only one path, that is what is ironic about it, isn't it. If we all claim that there is an infinite amount of ways to spiritual enlightenment, and not based upon one Religion, then we are all agreeing on the same thing, thus, without realizing it, we have created a Single Way to enlightenment.

We know the Universe exists, so we won't get into that debate, and since it exists, it exists exactly how it is supposed to exist to allow it to exist. And behind that cause of Existence, has to be a reason, something that drives it, some mechanism that closes the system and allows it to exist. But whatever it is, it exists as one system, one reason.

So, in Absolute Truth, there is only one Reason, we just haven't reached that level as a Civilization yet. But we are driven by our desire to know, which is why we don't know, otherwise there would be no driving force in consciousness. And the fact that Consciousness exists, means that it has to be included as a part of the mechanism, which eliminates the theory that life just is, and doesn't need a driving force. It also eliminates the concept that we are a product, or separate from Existence. Until recently, we have looked at existence as separate from ourselves. Trying to view it from an observationary point of view to the experiments we conduct. However, scientist on the edge are finding things that are forcing them to have to no longer consider themselves as observers, but as participants in this Absolute Mechanism to better formulate a Universal Model.

We seek, as a Civilization, to find this Absolute. Many say that it can't be comprehended, or that it isn't supposed to be known. But I feel that is a cop out, a sort of throwing the towel in. Because we do it Naturally, and not because we are told by an outside force to do it, it must be included as a part of the Model of the Universe.

So, what do we do. We create models of the Universe, and this is done in various aspects of Civilization, but primarily there are three primary colors to human Consicousness that drive us toward the Absolute, and they are Science, Art, and Religion.

Each has their own model of the Universe, and why things exist the way they do. And most times, they do not take the time to see what the other is looking at. They are too pre-occupied with finding the answer before the other does. And they drag Civilization along with them, which causes us to have a need to maintain that Civilization, so Government, Economics, and Law are created to sustain and drive the vehicle of Civilization in the direction that Science, Art and Religion lead.

The problem, and you may or may not agree, is that we have reached a precipice in Human Civilization. Each, Science, Religion, and Art have reached the limits of their comprehension, and are finding it difficult to move forward. This is causing a back up of energy on the level of Governement, Economics, and Law. The Natives are getting restless. The train has stopped, and everyone wants to know why. On the fore-front of Civilization, Science, Art, and Religion blame eachother for getting us in this mess, when they are all responsibile for it.

Needless to say, they are all dead in their tracks, and Civilization is currently a train that has stopped between stations. However, there are a few people, since there is nothing they can do along their direction, are beginning to take a look at what the other has been doing all this time. Science is beginning to look at Religion, and Art is beginning to look at Science, and Religion is starting to validat some of the things Science has been saying. And they are beginning to find similarities, which is leading to new breakthroughs in human thought and consciousness. An amazing thing is happening. Barriers are being removed, and all Three are beginning to work together again. When this happens, a Renaissance occurs. Just look at the last one.

The thing is, are trying to make our perceived model of the Universe, match the Absolut Model of the Universe. And the fact that we have generated so many views of the Universe through time, but most importantle in the present time, that as a participant, and not an observer, all must be considered with potential validity, that is, each will hold a key to the answer, simply because it exists.

Assume that we do discover an Absolute Model that we feel must be the answer. Then a Century later, someone finds a different perspective, though completely different, cannot be proven to be wrong. Thus a competeing model arises to challenge the old one. In the beginning the old will fight the new paradigm, mostly to the new ones benefit. If the new one fails these tests, then it will fall back and be absorbed into the old path. But, if by chance, the fight only validates the new path and strengthens its standing within the Civilization, it will reach a level equal to the old one, and for a while we will have to competeing models, as we currently do in Science, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.

When the old finally acknowledges the new, and procedes to stop the attacks. The two sides will begin to compare notes and find similarities, and in time, they will merger into a Unified Model. This is what the true basis of Evolution is, but the system is not specific to lifeforms, but to all Systems of Nature, including the ones we create ourselves.

When we achieve a Singular Understanding of Everything, any opposing model causes us to step above and incorporate over time the new to fall back again into one understanding. If an new one does arrise, it simply means that we have not reached the absolute yet, and where we were, was not the absolute.

To me, there is only One God. And to say that, brings panic in the words of all Pagans, because they fear the mistakes of Organized religion. But to me, no matter what path you take, you will in time, come to the conclusion that there has to be a single driving force behind it all. A single Consciousness above it all. The fact that we have competeing spiritual models, shows that we have not reached that point yet.

No, what I refer to as God, when I say only One. I refer to God as a single reason of existence. God has no gender, has no face or body, or race, or species, or bias, or Ego. This God is the Universal Consciousness. The Gnosis of all there is. A Cosmosis Gnosis. The driving force of everything.

Now this God, as Universal Consciousness, is not separate from us, but we all are a part of it, and all work together being it.

Also, this God Consciousness, desires for us to grow, and learn, literally to the point where we become that God Consciousness. Our spiritual paths are given to us through our destinies, and God will work to help you with your destiny, not against it. God does not have an Ego to care how you look at God, whether it is male, or female, or both, or broken up into Archetypes that become the separate dieties. God descends into this reality through the dieities, but not as the dieties. The dieties are physically Chaotic representations of specific Archetypes. God has thrown us a rope that takes the form of the roots of a great tree. from the main trunk, roots disperse, into more roots, into more roots, on to infinity. Actually, the number of roots is equal to the number of individual consciousnessess existing within the Universe.

And these roots become the dieties, pantheons, religions, sciences, cultures, and all spiritual paths. And I include science and art as a spiritual path. Basically, God in the act of descending towards us, has given us an infinite number of ways to reach God.

I feel the thing that spiritually needs to do is look at God through the Eyes of General Relativity, and I won't go to far into it but say that what God is, is relative to the observer, or better yet, the participant in the Universe. Just how reality is dependant as Einstein said upon the observer, and how two different observers can see completely two different things. God is the same. And that is the understanding we all must come to.

God is Relative to the observer, and appears exactly as a reflection of the observer's current model of the Universe. When this connection happens between God and Observer, the Observer tends to begin to move at the speed that is in balance with that view of God. However, someone outside of that perspective, will see something completely different, and not see exactly what the observer is seeing, and call him or her nuts.

Within this understanding, all visions of the Absolute are mere reflections of the same thing. And when you say that all spiritual paths are equally valid, there can only be one outcome, and that is a Single understanding of God.

God does not exist within a Single Religion, but a Single Understanding.

Also, I must note that this paper is also relative to this time, and this Understanding is necessary if Humanity wishes to reach the next level of Existence. But only for the current crises in Civilization. There may be some unknown still out there, but this is our current relative look.

Dragon

[Keith Dragon]

Also, what's funny, right after I posted this, I can across this in a news article.

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/2004/quantum-813.html

It is basically a list of all the things current Science still does not understand. This is the edge of Science I was talking about that has them saying WTF.

Dragon

[rainmaker]

Keith, I love reading what you post, but I need you to do me a favor.

Gather up every post you've made at MW, organize them, then go find a publisher. :sunny:

[NarYave]

Keith, I love reading what you post, but I need you to do me a favor.

Gather up every post you've made at MW, organize them, then go find a publisher. :sunny:

:rollingla

[SH-AA]

Also, what's funny, right after I posted this, I can across this in a news article.

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/2004/quantum-813.html

It is basically a list of all the things current Science still does not understand. This is the edge of Science I was talking about that has them saying WTF.

Dragon
And this means?......