Chaos ..the paradigm pirates ..etc.

[kaosxmage]

Hello all,

In my Introduction, I used "bad luck" as part of the title. Someone mistunderstood my use of the phrase and made a bad assumption that I suffered bad luck in my life as a result of working with "chaos".

First of all, I used bad luck in the title simply referring to "yet another new person" ...a stab at humor. However, I realized that misconceptions abound about what Chaos Magick is and more importantly is not.

I do not subscribe to every facet of the chaote paradigm, but I do agree with most. Chaos magicians are no different than wiccans, druids, etc etc etc when working their magick. They use use the word chaos to signify the constant dynamic force of potential that is everpresent in everything, and this is what they work with ...as all do. Chaos is not some dark force, or satanic destructive monster out there ...it's simply there, an agent of change that will have it's way. Now, for many chaotes, that's all they see. I see more. I see the stability in consensual reality, certain grouund rules that must be sustained for life and physical existense. I also witness decay and death ...another agent of change. Think of it in terms of life, death, and rebirth if you must.

Enough of the rant. I started this thread to address any and all qeustions and/ or concerns pertaining to Chaos Magick.

Enough quacking for now,
--Kaos

[Matsumoto]

Interesting, though your versionof chaos and mine differ greatly. Its funny how one word can mean many differnt things to different people. To me Chaos is not healthy and random change but a major threat to the universe's balance. Not saying your Change Magick is my version of Chaos, I just thought it might help clue you in as to why so many might misunderstand you. Change is a very great and iportant thing. So long as you do not threaten balance you're a-ok me me my friend :) Tell us mre about Change Magick (Is it ok if I refer to it as Change MAgick? I don't want to offend you but at the sam time it is difficult for me to say Chaos magick in a possitive way given my said interperatation)

[kaosxmage]

Hello there!

Change Magick is fine, afterall, all magick is change. As a mage you are an agent of change. And yes, I understand that the word chaos can be something foreboding in many vocabularies. You say you see chaos as something that threatens the balance of the universe ...well, I respect that. In my universe :reading: chaos is part of the delicate balance. Chaos, Stability, Decay : my holy trinity if you will.

Beyond that, you wanted to know more about chaos magick. No two chaotes tend to agree on much beyond the following points. Their mantra, nothing is true, everything is permitted. And, the only real tool is belief ...whether you believe what you use or not. I disagree with their mantra ...afterall, if nothing is true and everything is permitted ...then by default, something must be unpermissable, right? I do realize that belief ...in something ...is pretty important to the act of magick, and chaotes have had astounding success in their art while shedding paradigms like snake skins. Chaos magick is all about results! Forget what doesn't work ...you want religion, fine ...but show me what works. What is your will? Many can't answer that question.

You want more info ...specific questions are a joy. You can pore through www.chaosmatrix.com for hordes of info as well. My only real goal was to dispell the misconception when I use the the word chaos.

My apologies if my reply sounds distracted. My beloved cubbies are on ...and that "what is your will" question ...well I'm currently willing them into the playoffs!

--Kaos

[kaosxmage]

My apologies for the dead link ...found the update ... www.chaosmatrix.org

[aluokaloo]

I'm interested in chaos magick, to me chaos represents natural disruptions in the world, they wouldn't be there otherwise. I don't find chaos evil or unhealthy by default though it can be depending on the turns people make and how they react to chaos. But I would like to know what some of the beliefs are concerning chaos magic. It is a part of growth and change. Do you consider chaos in the greek terms or in terms for lack of a better word of mayheim?

[kaosxmage]

I don't consider chaos to be in terms of mayhem or disorder. I'm not speaking for all chaos magicians here, but I see chaos as the creative force of change that lives within everything. Some chaotes see chaos as the tao, the flow of the universe etc etc. The beliefs with chaos magick are few and far between, in fact many chaotes claim they are within a meta-paradigm rather than a paradigm. They latch onto the beliefs of other paradigms in order to obtain results. That's where chaotes and I differ ...thus the Kaos(x) in my name. I have been a part of many different chaos groups, and learned excellent technique. In fact, they excell in the mystery of technique, but I need some sense of spirituality in my life, I sense spirituality in my life, and I'm certain of some things being true ...although I'm prone to change my mind, and always open to being proven wrong. But that's part of the chaos movement ...proving right or wrong, excellence in technique, and beyond all else they only want what works...I'm much the same way.
--Kaos

[Erebus]

nothing is true, everything is permitted

Isn't that statement self-contradictory? Because it would have to be true for nothing to be true....

[Mesektet]

The commune and I have experimented greatly with choas magick, especially under the influence of the psychoactive 2cb a.k.a. "Nexus"....amazing results...one of the more deeper insights we found is that chaos is an extremely malleable tool...ordered chaos especially...

[Erebus]

Are there any books you'd recommend about Chaos Magic? I have to admit, aside from the contradictory statement at the front (and it's probably that way on purpose), i'm intrigued. :)

[asamananara]

I have to admit, aside from the contradictory statement at the front (and it's probably that way on purpose), i'm intrigued.
The enigmatic eleventh century Persian Isma'ili despot Hasan Bin Sabah
is reputed to have originated this expression. After William S. Burroughs
and Robert Anton Wilson referenced his fabled "Order of the Assassins"
and alluded to the "garden of delights" used by Sabah, many fringe
groups, including the chaotes, siezed upon the philosophy.

[dr_zeus440]

erebus: theres a fat post lingering around here somewhere by rain gnosis with a huge pile of references. gimme 2 seconds.....here we go, http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=34165. its huuuuuuuuuuge, well the post and the info in it. the texts arent that hard to find online. as to the "nothing is true, everything is permitted" statement, i think youve got to form your own reading of it. the "everything is permitted" bit is reminiscent of...Camus i thiiiiiiink but dont quote me on that (the correct answer will be somewhere on www.friesian.com/existent.htm, but thats another can of worms entirely, so probably DONT go there :D).

and yeah, on a more subjective note, chaos magic is hellllllll interesting for a lot of reasons. but i find its got less to do with the nature of chaos itself and more to do with magic use free of systemic restrictions, but that could be because when it comes to magic, im more a practitioner than a philosophiser. anyway, have a mess around with it, its bound to be fun.

[kaosxmage]

Books about chaos magick? Books? Yep ...chaos authors such as Phil Hine and Pete Carroll are a good start, but beyond that: any book about magick is game here. Remember, within the circle of chaotes, dogma is out, whatever works is IN! Chaos, as I've noted before, is all about getting results. It's stripping down to the purity of technique ...add your own spice if you must.

The nothing is true, everything is permitted statement is credited to Hassan Sabbah ...true or not, we don't know. Robert Anton Wilson is on his glorious Operation Mindfook journey as it were. The statement is open to interpretation, of course. It is contradictory, but remember that it's main focus is on the practice of magick. Nothing is true: no dogma, spirits or not, forget it all and immerse yourself in technique. Everything is permitted: no holds barred occultism, practice and have fun, think odin smells funny? forget him ...cast your runes your way, make it work and watch the asatruar get a little testy about it.

An important note about the chaotes: the internet has been their number one way of spreading information, everything from the Pact and Carroll, Hine, Burroughs, TOPY, the Z-Cluster ....etc etc etc , it's all online. Research and read, but above all else, get to work. Have fun, invoke bugs bunny and hug cthulu.

--Kaos

[Moonstoned]

What I have read about Chaos Magic on the net so far is fine by me.

However, I run very fast away from ugly and frightening things and don't want to hug cthulu :eyez: :sick: 8O

As far as I can see, chaos magicians use whatever they like in ritual, whatever 'rocks their boat'. This is what I do.

I'm going to get a book by Phil Hine, I need to know more, very interesting.

[kaosxmage]

Moonstoned,

You will enjoy the work by Phil Hine, and you can also peruse his and others works on the net at http://www.philhine.org.uk/

Happy hunting, and oh ...you don't actually have to hug cthulu, twas just a figure of speech

--Kaos

[Moonstoned]

I know, look I'm laughing *grins*, but I bet you've got one of those cuddly ones that I've seen on the net haven't you lol?

I tell you what, some of these Chaos Magicians/Mages, I don't know the terminology they prefer, they are really some clever chaps! I think there may be some hard reading here.

Oh amazon.co.uk are going to just love me, I'm a spending fool since I came on here.

[kaosxmage]

Moonstoned,

Well, I'm between classes, and you've managed to cause a riot in the library ...I can't stop laughing. No, I don't have a cuddly cthulu ...but I did! LOL!

As far as we chaotes go, the terminology isn't that bad. Remember that it's all about the purity of technique. Now some authors have their own twist on various segments of magick. Carroll formed the IOT and he's infatuated with secret societies and aeonic theories. Hine is more philosophical, and prone to contradict himself when it comes to spirituality, his own often comes through in his writing despite his best efforts to maintain the chaos thread of spirituality doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if the gods/spirits/daemons/etc are real or not, everything works regardless. The most important tool is belief and will. I happen to enjoy living with a polytheistic view of the universe ....it keeps my universe nice and big with plenty of variety.

One last note, you don't have to spend to awful much on books ...remember that the chaos movement embraced the web like none other, and just about everything is out there somewhere, a mouse click away ...for free.

Best regards,
--Kaos

[aluokaloo]

I looked into the threads, and found them interesting, if a bit overwhelming,some of what's said confuses me a little. But the basic idea wasn't too hard to grasp. It sounds like a difficult path to walk. But I'm sure to chaos mages? It is well worth it. I have no idea who cthuah is, and I have no burning desire to get the Norse Gods all steamed thanks. :bigredgri But I enjoyed learning about it.

[kaosxmage]

I agree that the path at first can appear a little difficult to walk, as pertaining to chaos magick. But then again, I don't think many of us chaotes strongly agree on a whole lot. We all agree that we are driving to get to our inner worlds without interupption from the outer ...so to speak, but the path runs the table with all types: atheists, wiccans, druids, etc etc etc. Any of you involved in covens or circles or whatever, shouldn't be surprised to find a chaote among you.

As to who cthulu is ... a nasty sleeping monstrosity from Lovecraft tales. A work of pure fiction ...maybe *grin*

Best regards,
--Kaos

[Alkhemia]

Hello Kaos!




As to who cthulu is ... a nasty sleeping monstrosity from Lovecraft tales. A work of pure fiction ...maybe *grin*

Maybe, indeed. :evilway: But, I don't think I'll be paying a visit to R'lyeh soon to visit the Old "not dead, but dreaming" One. :T

As you alluded to in an earlier post, from a Chaote perspective, even works of fiction are fair game and I have met some folks who have worked quite effectively with the Cthulhu mythos. One of the things I have always enjoyed about Chaos magick is that it acknowledges the intentional creation (via fiction or otherwise) and magical validity of "new" egregores.


Alkhemia

[Marchosias]

Isn't that statement self-contradictory? Because it would have to be true for nothing to be true....

I'm no professor on the subject, but I think that that is the whole point.

[kaosxmage]

Hello Alkhemia!

You are absolutely right about works of fiction being fair game! The cthulu mythos is an extremely powerful work of fiction indeed. The cthulu mythos have many parallels to other mythologies (which are all fiction in their way) as most indicate the existence of something dark, primal, unimaginable, existing before Odin, Marduk, The Tuatha de Dannan, etc etc came to throw them back, lock them away or whatever you do with such critters. In other words ...there's already a bit of a stream of consciousness towards the energies that could comprise the cthulu mythos.

Now, more importantly ...where did you get the lovely chaostar grinning????? I love it!

Best regards,
--Kaos

[Moonstoned]

Hello Alkhemia!

You are absolutely right about works of fiction being fair game! The cthulu mythos is an extremely powerful work of fiction indeed. The cthulu mythos have many parallels to other mythologies (which are all fiction in their way) as most indicate the existence of something dark, primal, unimaginable, existing before Odin, Marduk, The Tuatha de Dannan, etc etc came to throw them back, lock them away or whatever you do with such critters. In other words ...there's already a bit of a stream of consciousness towards the energies that could comprise the cthulu mythos.

Now, more importantly ...where did you get the lovely chaostar grinning????? I love it!

Best regards,
--Kaos

Sorry to hijack but I think it's one of the smilies listed here Kaos.

Now go get that cthulu out of your bedroom bin and give him a hug. :steppy:

[Moonstoned]

Sorry to hijack but I think it's one of the smilies listed here Kaos.

Now go get that cthulu out of your bedroom bin and give him a hug. :steppy:
-------------------------


Good grief, you don't say bin there do you? So now you think I must be bonkers. OK then, the trash can. :evilway:

[kaosxmage]

Bin, trash can, can, dump ...is there any loss of words for the garbage??? At any rate ...thanks! LOL

[slayer548]

Have fun, invoke bugs bunny and hug cthulu.

--Kaos

Hehehehe, I'm currently working on making a pantheon based around Looney Toon characters. Millions of kids worship them, and all the backstory and interaction is done! Perfect thing for a Chaote such as myself to use to dedicate to...

[Aurin]

It's so Looney, it just might work! *grin*

[auryn]

One note - Chaos is not "using whatever rocks your boat" alone, that's eclecticism. Chaos goes one step further by saying "use whatever rocks your boat because it might be true, it might not, and as such it's as valid as any thing else". In other words, an eclectic may draw from Wicca, Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, and Buddhism, but they do so because they believe in what they're drawing from - they follow "harm none", work towards ma'at, try to cultivate kindness and peace, etc, because they believe these things are the right thing to do.

However, the Chaote will draw from Ancient Egypt, not because s/he believes in the gods, follows the principles, or feels connected to the culture, but simply because it's convenient to work with Sutekh today. Sutekh is not necessarily real, but neither is Yahweh, and neither is The Horned God, but maybe they are. The Chaote shrugs and says "who cares?", working with Sutekh today and the Smurfs tomorrow, not because s/he believes in either, but because both are just as provably real as the other, and it doesn't matter what's true.

[auryn]

By the way, it has been said that Chaos magic is destructive only in that it can cause destruction of past assumptions and beliefs.

Further, some suggest that Chaos works because psychologically we form archetypes and myths naturally, and using whatever religion or culture is convenient to tap into these archetypes and myths is what works. In other words, it really doesn't matter if Sutekh exists or not, if believing you're tapping into that Sutekh energy gives you the ability to achieve your goals. Since all myths and religions are as provably true as any other (I can't prove to you Isis is any more real then the Tooth Fairy, nor can you prove to me Athena is any more real then Ishtar) they can be used as psychological tools to achieve the goal.

And all that matters in Chaos is the goal - if it works, use it. If it doesn't, scrap it. Get what you want, use what you need, discard the rest.

[kaosxmage]

Very good points and well said ...but one must also remember. That every chaote agrees to disagree, and not all appraoch the subject as you have. Regardless ...good work.

--Kaos

[Raven Heart]

I just know getting interested in chaos and this thread i think has opened my eyes a little. Thanks
Raven Heart