How many paths are there?

[MorningDove030202]

Updated to reflect the status of the current discussion.

If you don't consider yourself NEO PAGAN please do not vote!

Ok, I'd like to put together an Educational Poster for Pagan Pride Day and I'd like it to explain about not just Wicca, but the various other "NeoPagan" paths..... As I see it there are:

Wicca
Non-Wiccan Witch
Druid
Reconstructionists
Non-Denominational NeoPagan
Non Reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan Groups

Am I missing anything? I will go into some details about different tradtions of each, but not alot of detail....

To keep voting simple, I'd like to ask that if you are A leaning towards B, or incorporating C then just select A. (I hope that makes sence!) For instance I'm Wiccan but I also incorporate some Reconstuctionist ideas, but I'm still mainly Wiccan, so I vote Wicca.

Edited to add this:

See, I don't realy want to get into the individual Traditions and Organizations and Churches.... I want to group these "Trads" into catagories that are of similar organizations. It's more like I want to organize existing neopagn organizations into similar catagories, I'm not trying to fill every individual's path into a catagory.....Here is a quick outline of my thinking for this project.......

NeoPaganism:

Wicca: (Description of Wicca here, something about Gardner.)
Examples of organizations: Assembly of the Sacred Wheel, Correllian Wicca, CoG, etc

NeoPagan: (Description of NeoPagan here, something about being without an offical clasification, and being typicaly eclectic)
Examples of organizations:
Church of all Worlds, Church of the Eclectic Pagan, etc

Druid: (Description of Druid here.)
Example of organizations: Ar nDraiocht Fein, etc

Non Wiccan Witch: (Description here, something about not being related to Gardner, and also the practice of Witchcraft from within another religion, ie Christian Witch.)
Example of Organizations: http://ravening.co.uk/ Ravening, etc

Reconstructionist: (Description here, something about emphasis on historical accuracy and not mixing pantheons)
Example of organizations: http://www.asatru.org/ The Asatru Alliance, http://www.hellenion.org/

I'm not going to educate about the different NeoPagan trads, that would be too much info, I want to educated about the differnt catagories and provide a few examples of organizations that fall within these catagories...... Kind of a NeoPagan family tree.....

I hope this expresses what info I'm trying to get at better than my first post.....

Dove

[DebLipp]

Asatru
Santeria
Voudon
Native American paths (many)
Church of All Worlds
Radical Faerie
Women's Spirituality

...I also think that many of the "ethnic" groups aren't necessarily Recon. There are Egyptian, Roman, and Greek groups that aren't focused on Reconstruction so much as recreation; their emphasis is more modern.

...There's also the magical/occult people who aren't necessarily Pagan, such as the Thelemites and CMs.

[MorningDove030202]

Asatru
Santeria
Voudon
Native American paths (many)
Church of All Worlds
Radical Faerie
Women's Spirituality

...I also think that many of the "ethnic" groups aren't necessarily Recon. There are Egyptian, Roman, and Greek groups that aren't focused on Reconstruction so much as recreation; their emphasis is more modern.

...There's also the magical/occult people who aren't necessarily Pagan, such as the Thelemites and CMs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't consider Santeria or Voudon to be NEO pagan. I don't even know if they consider them selves Pagan. Same goes for Native American...there isn't anything NEO about them.... I will look up the CoAW to see if their site says what they fall under.

Thanks for the info!

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

From CoAW bylaws:

Dedication-Recognizing the necessity for the affirmation of life in a world choked by the worship of death, we, the Clergy and Councils of the Church of All Worlds do re-establish and re-ordain on this fair planet a vital new Pagan religion, dedicated to the celebration of Life, the maximal actualization of Human potential, and the realization of ultimate individual freedom and personal responsibility in harmonious eco-psychic relationship with the total Biosphere of Holy Mother Earth.

Mission Statement-The mission of the Church of All Worlds is to evolve a network of information, mythology and experience to awaken the Divine within and to provide a context and stimulus for reawakening Gaea and reuniting Her children through tribal community dedicated to responsible stewardship and the evolution of consciousness.

.....Looks to me like they are NeoPagan, like a Non denominational Neo Pagan Church, same with the Chruch of the Eclectic Pagan.....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

I guess I can't edit the poll can I ......Hum....

I think I might add something like...

Non Reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan Groups (Pagan, but not Witch or Wiccan)

How does that sound?

Dove

[Nighthawk]

He he.. well, shamanism is a universal word...I follow Native American path, and I am more comfortable with healer or Medicine Man. But, that is me

[MorningDove030202]

He he.. well, shamanism is a universal word...I follow Native American path, and I am more comfortable with healer or Medicine Man. But, that is me


Yes, I do realize there are many issues with the use of the word Shaman and Shamanism....

But if you are following a Native American Path, then is that realy NEOpagan?

Dove

[DebLipp]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't consider Santeria or Voudon to be NEO pagan. I don't even know if they consider them selves Pagan. Same goes for Native American...there isn't anything NEO about them.... I will look up the CoAW to see if their site says what they fall under.

Thanks for the info!

Dove

Santeria and Voudon aren't Neopagan religions, but some practitioners are members of the Neopagan community. Native American paths aren't Neopagan, but non-Native people who adapt Native ways are often very Neopagan, and some have been denounced by some Natives, and supported by some Neopagans.

CAW isn't non-denominational. Its denomination is "CAW." It's the oldest Neopagan "church" in North America, and one of the largest.

Oh, there's also ATC -- the Aquarian Tabernacle Church. And of course, there's COG -- Covenant of the Goddess.

[Fideal]

There are a jillion. to be specific.

:lol:

I'm an Irish Recon, but Im also an animist. I think animism can be combined with most paths easily.

[DebLipp]

There are a jillion. to be specific.

:lol:

I'm an Irish Recon, but Im also an animist. I think animism can be combined with most paths easily.

Well, animism isn't a path, it's a theology, like polytheism or pantheism or panentheism or henotheism...

[LittlePerson]

Animist here but first of all I'm pagan.

You can be animist and part of another religion.

[DebLipp]

Here's a good link: http://www.witchvox.com/xtrads.html

[Kern]

Like animism and pantheism,shaminism isnt a religion,but can be part of a religion.
IMO any religion that doesnt worship Jehovah/Allah that began before the 20th century,ie Hinduism,Buddhism,Polynesian paths,indegineous paths etc are not Neo-Pagan.Neo Pagan religions are those that are re-created paths from religions that at one time or another ceased to be a religion.Whether that is Reconstructed paths like Nova Roma,Asatru,Druidic etc or those that blend paths or beliefs like Wicca and others.

[Theres]

Non Reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan Groups (Pagan, but not Witch or Wiccan)

How does that sound?
and yet if pressed, i might lay claim to 'nonReconstructionist Hellenic Pagan Witch'.
how does THAT bugger your poll? :bug:

[MorningDove030202]

See, I don't realy want to get into the individual Traditions and Organizations and Churches.... I want to group these "Trads" into catagories that are of similar organizations......

Here is a quick outline of my thinking for this project.......

NeoPaganism:

Wicca: (Description of Wicca here, something about Gardner.)
Examples of organizations: Assembly of the Sacred Wheel, Correllian Wicca, CoG, etc

NeoPagan: (Description of NeoPagan here, something about being without an offical clasification, and being typical eclectic)
Examples of organizations:
Church of all Worlds, Church of the Eclectic Pagan, etc

Druid: (Description of Druid here.)
Example of organizations: Ar nDraiocht Fein, etc

Non Wiccan Witch: (Description here, something about not being related to Gardner, and also the practice of Witchcraft from within another religion, ie Christian Witch.)
Example of Organizations: http://ravening.co.uk/ Ravening, etc

Reconstructionist: (Description here, something about emphasis on historical accuracy and not mixing pantheons)
Example of organizations: http://www.asatru.org/ The Asatru Alliance, http://www.hellenion.org/

I'm not going to educate about the different Wiccan trads, that would be too much info, I want to educated about the differnt catagories and provide a few examples of organizations that fall within these catagories...... Kind of a NeoPagan family tree.....


I hope this expresses what info I'm trying to get at better than my first post.....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

and yet if pressed, i might lay claim to 'nonReconstructionist Hellenic Pagan Witch'.
how does THAT bugger your poll? :bug:

I'd file that under non Wiccan Witch..... or non reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan....

Depends if you want the emphais on Witch or Pagan, I can alwsy put a disclaimer on the project that many feel equaly comforable in multiple catagories....

Dove

[Theres]

I'd file that under non Wiccan Witch..... or non reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan....

Depends if you want the emphais on Witch or Pagan
both! i identify strongly as both, and don't see any conflict in that.

[TaysatWesir]

My path is Kemetic (the ancient Egyptian religion). A community I participate in http://www.kemetonline.com/

[Nighthawk]

Yes, I do realize there are many issues with the use of the word Shaman and Shamanism....

But if you are following a Native American Path, then is that realy NEOpagan?

Dove

I have no idea.... perhaps ask around. I do not know labels, only my heart. I am odd and wonky that way, sorry...

[MorningDove030202]

both! i identify strongly as both, and don't see any conflict in that.


Oh, I don't see any conflict either.... I guess that's why I should have let people vote more than one......

Next question.... are there any organization, with non profit status and all that, that don't claim wicca or witch, or pagan, but focus on the belief that all things have a spirit aka animism, and don't have any ethnic requirements. (Ie you don't have to be a native american to participate.)

This kind of organization is what I would guess I would find under an "animism" catagory, but I don't know if any exist...

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

I have no idea.... perhaps ask around. I do not know labels, only my heart. I am odd and wonky that way, sorry...

Odd and Wonky is just fine.... it just doesn't help my project here much..... Maybe I should add another disclaimer about NeoPagans who prefer not to use any other lables beyond Neo Pagan.......

Dove

[Erebus]

Yes, I do realize there are many issues with the use of the word Shaman and Shamanism....

But if you are following a Native American Path, then is that realy NEOpagan?

Dove

On that note, how the hell is animism "NEO"? It was the first religion primitive man ever came up with!

[Erebus]

And even though I know it'll probably hijack the thread:

Satanism.

NO, it's NOT Christian.

[MorningDove030202]

How the hell is animism "NEO"?? It was the first religion primitive man ever came up with!

I guess you have a point there..... I was looking for something like Neo-native Sprituality.... Perhapse I have enough catagories....

On the same note is a Christian Witch a NeoPagan faith...... I guess not.... LOL

Well this all helps me to narrow down my topic a bit.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

My path is Kememtic (the ancient Egyptian religion). A community I participate in http://www.kemetonline.com/

Thanks for the resource, but Kemetonline is a forum, it doesn't apear to be a church or other religious organization that has non profit status....... and it also doesn't define the religion either....... Is there a church or similar organization that does have the non profit status? I'd like to see if they describe themselves as Reconstructionist or not.....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

And even though I know it'll probably hijack the thread:

Satanism.

NO, it's NOT Christian.

Well, it's not Neopagan, and therefore it's not realy pertinant to the topic here...
Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Hey for the non wiccan witches, is there a non wiccan witch tradtion you belong to?
Dove

[TaysatWesir]

Thanks for the resource, but Kemetonline is a forum, it doesn't apear to be a church or other religious organization that has non profit status....... and it also doesn't define the religion either....... Is there a church or similar organization that does have the non profit status? I'd like to see if they describe themselves as Reconstructionist or not.....

Dove

Per ankh (temple) is listed on the page they offer classes. You might want to read this page: http://www.per-ankh.org/about.html and this page: http://www.per-ankh.org/define.html

[HorseCrow]

Pagan Green Witch...

[Theres]

Thanks for the resource, but Kemetonline is a forum, it doesn't apear to be a church or other religious organization that has non profit status....... and it also doesn't define the religion either....... Is there a church or similar organization that does have the non profit status? I'd like to see if they describe themselves as Reconstructionist or not...
you might try searching Google for a 501(c)3 listing.

[Mesektet]

just another humble thanatoic hallucenogenic willworker here, trying to follow the shaman's path....

[Athena-Nadine]

My religion is Hellenismos. This is the church I belong to: www.hellenion.org (http://www.hellenion.org)

[MorningDove030202]

Pagan Green Witch...

Ok, so that would be non Wiccan Witch, because as I see it Witch with a capital W is inherently Pagan.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

just another humble thanatoic hallucenogenic willworker here, trying to follow the shaman's path....


Maybe NeoTribal would be a good description? If that is,if the NEO part applies.... Maybe the Shamanism/Animism/Tribal parts just don't qualify as neo..... I think I will just not include them in my educational poster thingy....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Per ankh (temple) is listed on the page they offer classes. You might want to read this page: http://www.per-ankh.org/about.html and this page: http://www.per-ankh.org/define.html


Ah yes, I see they are reconstructionist....... thanks for sharing!

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

My religion is Hellenismos. This is the church I belong to: www.hellenion.org (http://www.hellenion.org)


Coolenss I've been meaning to check them out....
Dove

[Athena-Nadine]

Coolenss I've been meaning to check them out....
Dove
Glad to be of service! :D ;)

[mothwench]

Maybe NeoTribal would be a good description? If that is,if the NEO part applies.... Maybe the Shamanism/Animism/Tribal parts just don't qualify as neo..... I think I will just not include them in my educational poster thingy....

Dove

erm... that's some strange reasoning. cause if you go by not including the non-neo's (sorry, i just invented one horrible word, didn't i? ) you wouldn't want to include the reconstructionists, either. most would be offended at being classed as neo-pagan.

and to confuse things even more: i class myself as eclectic reconstructionist. :nyah: but i would understand if you don't want to include that in your paper, it raises far too many questions. and eyebrows. :lol:

[Strawberry Bounce]

Dianics (who are not Wiccan)

[MorningDove030202]

Dianics (who are not Wiccan)

But wouldn't that be another non Wiccan Witch? Or is there a Non Reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan group that focuses on Diana? Oh and are their any offical Dianic organizations,churches, etc.?


Dove

[Strawberry Bounce]

But wouldn't that be another non Wiccan Witch?

Dove
Oh yeah that's true. I thought you wanted names of specific non Wiccan paths.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

erm... that's some strange reasoning. cause if you go by not including the non-neo's (sorry, i just invented one horrible word, didn't i? ) you wouldn't want to include the reconstructionists, either. most would be offended at being classed as neo-pagan.

You got to it first. I was going to say that I am a Scottish Recon, but don't consider myself a neo-pagan and that the majority of recons I've spoken do not consider recon to be neo-pagan either. Heck, most don't even identify with the word pagan, let alone adding the word neo to the front of it

[Svanhild]

I'm an Asatruar, and like some of the other recons in this thread I don't consider recon religions to be neo-pagan.

[SylverStar]

What about Discordianism? :P

[MorningDove030202]

Oh yeah that's true. I thought you wanted names of specific non Wiccan paths.

Oh, is there a specfic Dianic non Wiccan Witch website or organization you can point me to, an actual non profit group?

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

What about Discordianism? :P
Ya, what about them? Do they claim to be a witch tradition, or are they pagan...... Some how I find trying to classify them as being inherently blasphamous to their path....LOL

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

I'm an Asatruar, and like some of the other recons in this thread I don't consider recon religions to be neo-pagan.


That's a good point, however some actual organizations that claim reconstructionist also claim to be neo pagans, mainly because it's a historical rebirth of a dead religion, there for it's new in that it's a rebirth. Also, I'm clasiflying mainly organizations, not individuals.... But I will put on my display a disclaimer about some Reconstrctionist groups/individuals not wanting to be assocated with NEOpaganism because they don't feel they are "new".

I just figured it would be a greater insult to leave out the Recons.... since they do apear to be a large group with in Neopaganism, judging by the responce to this poll.

Dove

[Tullip Troll]

Non wiccan witch reconstructionist...influenced by all things nature.

MheraPai

[MorningDove030202]

Non wiccan witch reconstructionist...influenced by all things nature.

MheraPai


What ethnic religion are you reconstructing?

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That's a good point, however some actual organizations that claim reconstructionist also claim to be neo Peoples, mainly because it's a historical rebirth of a dead religion, there for it's new in that it's a rebirth. Also, I'm clasiflying mainly organizations, not individuals.... But I will put on my display a disclaimer about some Reconstrctionist groups/individuals not wanting to be assocated with NEOPeopleism because they don't feel they are "new".

I just figured it would be a greater insult to leave out the Recons.... since they do apear to be a large group with in NeoPeopleism, judging by the responce to this poll.

Dove

Ahh but the thing is that there are far more recons who don't identify as neo-pagan than there are people in the organizations who say they are neo-pagan. You'll notice that all of the recons who responded said they don't consider themselves neo-pagan. Furthermore, at least in the case of Celtic Recon, many don't feel that they are reviving anything from the dead. The beliefs and practices of the celtic tribes never died, they were just blended into the Celtic form of Christianity and were still practiced and followed under the guise of that religion. There are some places, mostly in the more remote regions of the Scottish Highlands and islands that still participate in practices from the pagan era.

[HorseCrow]

Ok, so that would be non Wiccan Witch,

That's what i opted to vote for, yes :)

[Erebus]

Well, it's not Neopagan, and therefore it's not realy pertinant to the topic here...
Dove

You have a very strange, biased definition of neo-pagan.

You may as well just type up the numbers you want to type up already and not bother with the farce of pretending to research it. If Animism is neo-pagan but Satanism isn't, well, there's not a whole lot left to say about your poll, hmm?

[MorningDove030202]

Ahh but the thing is that there are far more recons who don't identify as neo-pagan than there are people in the organizations who say they are neo-pagan. You'll notice that all of the recons who responded said they don't consider themselves neo-pagan. Furthermore, at least in the case of Celtic Recon, many don't feel that they are reviving anything from the dead. The beliefs and practices of the celtic tribes never died, they were just blended into the Celtic form of Christianity and were still practiced and followed under the guise of that religion. There are some places, mostly in the more remote regions of the Scottish Highlands and islands that still participate in practices from the pagan era.

Well, why then did they vote in my poll? Also, I'm not clasifying the beliefs of individuals I am classifying organizations. But as I noted, I would put the standard not all recons are NEOpagan blurb on my display....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

You have a very strange, biased definition of neo-pagan.

You may as well just type up the numbers you want to type up already and not bother with the farce of pretending to research it. If Animism is neo-pagan but Satanism isn't, well, there's not a whole lot left to say about your poll, hmm?

I already decided that animism should be left out. please read the posts.... Also, I don't think I'm going to put numbers in my display.

Yes, unfortuantly I can't edit my poll.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

You have a very strange, biased definition of neo-pagan.

You may as well just type up the numbers you want to type up already and not bother with the farce of pretending to research it. If Animism is neo-pagan but Satanism isn't, well, there's not a whole lot left to say about your poll, hmm?


Also, I'm not being Biased, I'm just narrowing down the scope of my display because I only have so much space to use.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

What about Discordianism? :P

Well after some research and discovering this wonderful Hymn... I've decided that Discordian would be "non Reconstructionist Ethnic Paganism". I didn't find anything that apeared to me that they are a Witch tradition....
Dove


An Erisian Hymn
by Rev. Dr. Mungojerry Grindlebone,
KOB Episkopos, THE RAYVILLE APPLE PANTHERS

Onwards Christian Soldiers,
Onwards Buddhist Priests.
Onward, Fruits of Islam,
Fight till you're deceased.

Fight your little battles.
Join in thickest fray;
For the Greater Glory,
of Dis-cord-i-a.

Yah, yah, yah, Yah, yah, yah, yah. Blfffffffffffft!

[MorningDove030202]

Here is a rough draft of my NeoPagan Family Tree

[mothwench]

Well, why then did they vote in my poll?


ugh. :rolleyes:
i for one was not aware when i voted that this was a neos-only party. sorry about the intrusion.

[SylverStar]

What is the point of the term ethnic? Why not just non-recon pagan I see ethnic being something like santeria.

[MorningDove030202]

What is the point of the term ethnic? Why not just non-recon pagan I see ethnic being something like santeria.


Ya, Ethnic isn't realy the right word... let me think...

non-reconstructionist Pagan VS Neo Pagan

.....see if I don't add a word to Non-Reconstructionist, the these two become the same thing....

I was thinking about making a catagory for groups that focus on one particular God/dess of a cultural panthenon, but not that entire culture's panthenon........ And by not including the other Gods of a Panthenon, then they arn't realy reconstructionist.....

Like if I started a Chrurch of Athena, and only looked at Her.... that woldn't realy be Recon...... It would be..... "Non-Reconstructionist Uni-theistic Pagan" ...essentialy this is what the Discordians are....

Would that be better than Ethinic?

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

ugh. :rolleyes:
i for one was not aware when i voted that this was a neos-only party. sorry about the intrusion.

It's ok, I didn't have it spelled out very well, so I edited later to make it more obvious. I'm going to redo the poll again once I have the names for my catgories all fleshed out and settled upon...

Dove

[TaysatWesir]

Ah yes, I see they are reconstructionist....... thanks for sharing!

Dove

Glad to be of help your welcome.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well, why then did they vote in my poll? Also, I'm not clasifying the beliefs of individuals I am classifying organizations. But as I noted, I would put the standard not all recons are NEOpagan blurb on my display....

Dove

Not all recons are pagan period, neo or not. That is my point. And I voted because I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to. That and I'm so used to the assumption that being a recon makes me a neo-pagan that I just didn't think about it that way. Furthermore, you don't even really know if they did vote in your poll as it's not public (meaning you can't see names of who voted what). All of us who have made this point very well could have made it without voting and you would never know otherwise unless we told you that we voted.

[Brinclhof]

Other---- Christo-pagan.

[Erebus]

'nother question:

How is Druid "Neo"? It's nearly as old as animism.

[SylverStar]

Ok I guess that makes since. So like Pagans that focus on Grecian dieties but are not reconstructionists.

[MorningDove030202]

'nother question:

How is Druid "Neo"? It's nearly as old as animism.

Well, honestly I consider most Druid groups today to realy be Neo-Druids.... I don't belive there is a surviving Druid family lineage.... But, I can put a Druid branch on reconstructionist....

From www.adf.org

Ar nDraiocht Fein: A Druid Fellowship (ADF) is an international fellowship devoted to creating a public tradition of Neopagan Druidry.

.....So at least some Druid groups claim NeoPagan.......

Now I need to edit my Tree......

Thanks for helping me with this project.... it's been very educational....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Ok I guess that makes since. So like Pagans that focus on Grecian dieties but are not reconstructionists.

Exactly!

[MorningDove030202]

Oh here it is.... Any comments?

[tensen]

'nother question:

How is Druid "Neo"? It's nearly as old as animism.

Because it died out. What we practice now, isn't necessarily the same as then. We are stripping pieces of Christianity off of the bits we still have to find the core belief.

[RubyRose]

I voted 'Wicca' because that it what am was/am following. I am now learning towards what you'd probably call Druidic Wicca. In that I'm slowly working towards creating for myself a more Druidic path, but still working with the elements of Wicca of which I feel comfortable and agree with. By following a part Druid path, I am able to incorporate all that I love of Celtic Culture, and Deity's and still have it feel right to me. If that makes sense.

[DebLipp]

Oh here it is.... Any comments?

My comment is that if you were presenting it to the public, "Nonreconstructionist" is about as off-putting and confusing as you could ask for. And "Ethnic" (and believe me, I'm the one who suggested the word, so I'm sorry) could be misinterpreted as being somehow racist.

If it's for the public (rather than for us) I'd say remove the references to "Nonreconstructionist." I'd combine the ethnic-oriented groups into a single main branch called "cultural." The general public isn't going to get the difference between recon and nonrecon. I'm having a hard time seeing how Druid is different from Celtic, but whatever.

I'd make the branch you have labeled "Recon" changed to "Cultural," rename "nonrecon ethnic pagan" to "Other Cultural Pagan" and move it to the far right of the Cultural branch. I'd move "Nonrecon Druid" onto the "Neopagan" branch and rename them "Neopagan Druid." I'd change "Nondenominational Pagan" to "Other Pagan" because things like CAW and ATC are denominations. I'd add "Eclectic Pagan" to that branch. I'd rename that entire branch "Other Neopagan" because I don't see how Neopagan can be a sub-branch off of a Neopagan tree.

I apologize for all the criticism. You're doing a laudable thing, it's just sort of tricky.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Oh here it is.... Any comments?
There's only one M in "Kemetic". Plus, Wicca is a neopagan path, yet they're shown on two different branches.

[Erebus]

Because it died out. What we practice now, isn't necessarily the same as then. We are stripping pieces of Christianity off of the bits we still have to find the core belief.

If that's the criteria, she should stick Animism and Native American Shamanism back up there.

[coyoger]

How many different paths are there? How many grains of sand is there on the local beach?

[TaysatWesir]

There's only one M in "Kemetic". Plus, Wicca is a neopagan path, yet they're shown on two different branches.

You are right it is spelled with one m not two. It was my mistake I did not double-check post for errors.

[MorningDove030202]

There's only one M in "Kemetic". Plus, Wicca is a neopagan path, yet they're shown on two different branches.


I agree, I didn't mean for my picutre to infer that... I did name it "The NeoPagan Family Tree" meaning that all the paths were neopagan....

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

How many different paths are there? How many grains of sand is there on the local beach?

Well that's all good and true, but not very helpful when trying to educate people... And I'm classifying mainly the organizations, not individual people's paths...

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

My comment is that if you were presenting it to the public, "Nonreconstructionist" is about as off-putting and confusing as you could ask for. And "Ethnic" (and believe me, I'm the one who suggested the word, so I'm sorry) could be misinterpreted as being somehow racist.

If it's for the public (rather than for us) I'd say remove the references to "Nonreconstructionist." I'd combine the ethnic-oriented groups into a single main branch called "cultural." The general public isn't going to get the difference between recon and nonrecon. I'm having a hard time seeing how Druid is different from Celtic, but whatever.

I'd make the branch you have labeled "Recon" changed to "Cultural," rename "nonrecon ethnic pagan" to "Other Cultural Pagan" and move it to the far right of the Cultural branch. I'd move "Nonrecon Druid" onto the "Neopagan" branch and rename them "Neopagan Druid." I'd change "Nondenominational Pagan" to "Other Pagan" because things like CAW and ATC are denominations. I'd add "Eclectic Pagan" to that branch. I'd rename that entire branch "Other Neopagan" because I don't see how Neopagan can be a sub-branch off of a Neopagan tree.

I apologize for all the criticism. You're doing a laudable thing, it's just sort of tricky.

I like some of your suggetions.... I will chainge the wording to use "other" and "cultural".... I'm undecided about removing reconstructionist. In my final copy I'm going to add a paragraph description about each, so I will explain what Recon is... so I might as well keep it in. Thanks for you input!
Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Here's the tree now.....

You will have to excuse the deformed nature of my tree. I also spelled Kemetic wrong again! (I apologise! :foopsies: ) Also I used a light and dark blue font.... which can you all see better?

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

BTW, I don't think of CoAWs at it's own catagory, sect, whatever, and here is why....

It's just one church..... it has no branches....... If there were like.....

the "United CoAW", "The Reformed CoAW" and then also the "Non-Denominational CoAW" or the "The International CoAW" and each functioned as it's own independent church seperate from each other but all claiming lineage to O. Zell's CoAW, then yes, I would put it as a branch of "Other NeoPagan". But as it stands right now... CoAW would be a leaf on the "Other NeoPagan" branch....and I'm not getting that detailed.

See, I'm organizing NeoPagan Churches into catagories, a word for which I don't have. It's like if NeoPagan is an "umbrella term" these catagories would be a "Sub-Umbrella".

I hope I've made myself better understood.....

Dove

[TaysatWesir]

Here's the tree now.....

You will have to excuse the deformed nature of my tree. I also spelled Kemetic wrong again! (I apologise! :foopsies: ) Also I used a light and dark blue font.... which can you all see better?

Dove

That's alright it happens to me too. :foopsies:

[MorningDove030202]

So, I think I will make some cosmetic chainges to my tree, (and fix the spelling) and post it in a new thread with a new poll reflecting my NeoPagan family tree. ....that is if no one else has anything to add......

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Oh, a thought.... I was thinking of making "Other NeoPagan" into "Other Eclectic NeoPagan"....... any objections?

As I see it... "Other NeoPagan" is more Eclectic than "Cultural NeoPagan (Non-Recon)" but it might be more accuarate to say:

Other More Eclectic NeoPagan

Cultural Less Eclectic NeoPagan

I mean, both can be eclectic, but it realy is a issue of how Eclectic.......

I could put in my descriptions, that Other Neopagan is more eclectic than it's other brantches, and that this Other catagory is an area that is still developing it's ideas into phsycial oranizations....... Does that seam accurate to you?

Dove

[Shanti]

I dont get this dieing out thing with old ways. If you look around the world you will probably find things didnt die out, just few continued to practise and then it spread again. And neo means new. Not reborn, regenerated, changed..New. From the Greek, neos, new.

This all seems not accuarate.
And animism and shamanism dont belong in a list of paths. Animism is a philosophy and shamanism is a skill.
You can follow many differant relgions and paths and be shaman and/or animist.
And druids...when did they total disappear from the planet? Was there a time when no human practiced druidism at all, anywhere that I dont know about.

I am just failing to understand.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

there are as many paths as there are people.

[DebLipp]

I like the dark blue font better.

I think you should change "Other Neopagan" to "Eclectic Neopagan" and change the "Neopagan" branch to "Other Neopagan." I get what you're saying about CAW and that seems fine, I just don't like "Nondenominational Neopagan" as the umbrella to put groups like that under, because those sorts of groups are denominations.

Anyway, Wicca is Neopagan, and the whole tree is Neopagan, so it's confusing to have a branch that's also Neopagan. That's why I'd make the branch say "Other."

Final minor criticism, it would be "Non-Wiccan Witch" not "Non-Wicca Witch."

I think you're doing a really good thing and I applaud the effort.

[MorningDove030202]

I dont get this dieing out thing with old ways. If you look around the world you will probably find things didnt die out, just few continued to practise and then it spread again. And neo means new. Not reborn, regenerated, changed..New. From the Greek, neos, new.

This all seems not accuarate.
And animism and shamanism dont belong in a list of paths. Animism is a philosophy and shamanism is a skill.
You can follow many differant relgions and paths and be shaman and/or animist.
And druids...when did they total disappear from the planet? Was there a time when no human practiced druidism at all, anywhere that I dont know about.

I am just failing to understand.

I'm not a Druid, though I would like to know more about the Druids of Today. I did however take some history classes in college, and I can tell you that what we do know about the Druids comes from Roman writings which are biased because they hated the Druids for mainly their practice of human sacrifice, therefore we don't know a heck of a lot about them. I feel that claiming to be a NeoDruid or a Rebirth of Druid ideas is a more honest and historicaly accurat CLAIM for today's Druids, and that I feel it is valid to try to peel back what Christianity has done to the myths of that time and culture. But an actual intact Druid liniage from before Christianity or before the Romans.... I highly doubt it.

If you want to know about the real history of "NeoPagan Witchcraft" I can recomend "Triumph of the Moon" by Ron Hutton. It's a historicaly accurate schollarly work that cuts threw many of the "creation myths" that early NeoPagans felt they had to have...you know the "my grandmother initiated me" type stuff.... it cuts threw that to reveal a true history, which to me is much better than grasping for strawls at a made up history. In the end, history does not make our path valid, and neither does lineage. It's our satisfaction and our spiritual growth that makes a path valid.

If you are interested in historical accuracy....I do recomend any of the Reconstructionist faiths.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

I like the dark blue font better.

I think you should change "Other Neopagan" to "Eclectic Neopagan" and change the "Neopagan" branch to "Other Neopagan." I get what you're saying about CAW and that seems fine, I just don't like "Nondenominational Neopagan" as the umbrella to put groups like that under, because those sorts of groups are denominations.

Anyway, Wicca is Neopagan, and the whole tree is Neopagan, so it's confusing to have a branch that's also Neopagan. That's why I'd make the branch say "Other."

Final minor criticism, it would be "Non-Wiccan Witch" not "Non-Wicca Witch."

I think you're doing a really good thing and I applaud the effort.

Thanks, I like your suggestions....Yes, that makes sence! Thanks for you input!

Time to drawl a new tree.......

I'm also glad to see my research is apreciated..... BTW, if anyone with way more artictic know how than me would like to recreate a more profestional looking vertision of my finished tree, I would welcome the help, and naturaly make it freely available to all MW members.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm not a Druid, though I would like to know more about the Druids of Today. I did however take some history classes in college, and I can tell you that what we do know about the Druids comes from Roman writings which are biased because they hated the Druids for mainly their practice of human sacrifice, therefore we don't know a heck of a lot about them. I feel that claiming to be a NeoDruid or a Rebirth of Druid ideas is a more honest and historicaly accurat CLAIM for today's Druids, and that I feel it is valid to try to peel back what Christianity has done to the myths of that time and culture. But an actual intact Druid liniage from before Christianity or before the Romans.... I highly doubt it.

If you want to know about the real history of "NeoPagan Witchcraft" I can recomend "Triumph of the Moon" by Ron Hutton. It's a historicaly accurate schollarly work that cuts threw many of the "creation myths" that early NeoPagans felt they had to have...you know the "my grandmother initiated me" type stuff.... it cuts threw that to reveal a true history, which to me is much better than grasping for strawls at a made up history. In the end, history does not make our path valid, and neither does lineage. It's our satisfaction and our spiritual growth that makes a path valid.

If you are interested in historical accuracy....I do recomend any of the Reconstructionist faiths.

Dove

I still protest reconstructionism being called neo-pagan. As Shanti says the beliefs never died out, at least as far as the beliefs of the various Celtic people go, it only changed. The folklore continued to be told and practiced, hell even some of the gods continued to be worshipped, though they became saints. But the point is, these beliefs never died out and thus are not neo anything. To include Recon on your tree is extremely offensive to the majority (I will not deny that there may be a very small group of recons who accept being called neo-pagan) of the reconstructionist community.

It would be like me calling you a Satanist, even after you objected to the term and told me exactly what your beliefs were. You wouldn't like to be called something your not and would be offended at my continuing to do so. I, and other recons who have posted here, are offended at your continuing to call us neo-pagans when we are not. Your disclaimer doesn't make it better. It just makes wrong with a disclaimer that is also wrong, considering you plan to use the word some when it is in fact the vast majority who don't claim the term.

[Morr]

I agree with Morag.
I lean heavily towards the Irish Recon faith, and I was surprised to see it classified as a "neo pagan" religion.

[MorningDove030202]

I still protest reconstructionism being called neo-pagan. As Shanti says the beliefs never died out, at least as far as the beliefs of the various Celtic people go, it only changed. The folklore continued to be told and practiced, hell even some of the gods continued to be worshipped, though they became saints. But the point is, these beliefs never died out and thus are not neo anything. To include Recon on your tree is extremely offensive to the majority (I will not deny that there may be a very small group of recons who accept being called neo-pagan) of the reconstructionist community.

It would be like me calling you a Satanist, even after you objected to the term and told me exactly what your beliefs were. You wouldn't like to be called something your not and would be offended at my continuing to do so. I, and other recons who have posted here, are offended at your continuing to call us neo-pagans when we are not. Your disclaimer doesn't make it better. It just makes wrong with a disclaimer that is also wrong, considering you plan to use the word some when it is in fact the vast majority who don't claim the term.

It's a matter of semantics, and how you believe in history. I feel that the minute a family in Ireland claimed to be Christian, they stoped being Pagan, even if Gods became Saints. Christianity was tacked onto their practices and the Pagan aspects were altared over the many generations to the point that in my opinon it died out as a religion (though cultural tradtions remains, but there is more to a religon than cultural traditions.) Now the Christian parts are being peeled away and it's being reborn again. It's not a surviving lineage, it's a rebirth. I supose people will disagree with this forever. I hope the note I included in my final (?) draft posted in a seperate thread will acknowlede with respect our difference of opinion.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sorry no disclaimer you put is going to mollify me. It's blantantly disrespectful to call someones path something it is not.

And it's not semantics. They beliefs that make up reconstructionism aren't new. Sure there may not have been a continuous line of pagan practioners, but the very fact that their beliefs aren't new ones (such as with Wicca or modern witchcraft) makes it logically impossible to consider them neo-pagans.

[MorningDove030202]

Sorry no disclaimer you put is going to mollify me. It's blantantly disrespectful to call someones path something it is not.

And it's not semantics. They beliefs that make up reconstructionism aren't new. Sure there may not have been a continuous line of pagan practioners, but the very fact that their beliefs aren't new ones (such as with Wicca or modern witchcraft) makes it logically impossible to consider them neo-pagans.

You make a good and vaild point. However I'm not calling anyone's path something it is not. There can be both NeoPagan Recons and Ancient-Pagan Recons. If you are not a NeoPagan Recon, then consider yourself and your path not on my Tree.

Weither a Recon Organization is Neo Pagan or not, is not for me to decide. It's an internal afair, and until I find that there are no longer any Recon Organizations that use "NeoPagan" and no individual Recons that don't claim "NeoPagan" I won't be taking it off my Tree.

In my experience your point of view isn't the only one, there for there must be room for both in my project.

This is all I have to say about the matter, and I am done saying it. Feel free to vote your opinon of my tree on my other thread.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=64073

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

If I titled the tree "The Modern Pagan Family Tree" would that include those Recons that are not NeoPagan?

Dove

[Seren_]

A "modern" pagan family tree could imply any pagan who happens to be practising in modern times. You would have to expand your tree considerably then...

Trees have roots. To me, the roots of Wicca (for example) are widely different to those of reconstructionism. Logically, anything neopagan in a neopagan tree would have the same roots at the core of it....

Historically, as far as I'm aware, the reconstructionist religions began to become more popular in the 1970s. This may have been due to the increase in popularity of neopagan religions like Wicca, and the more "permissive" attitude of the times (in the sense of allowing for diversity in beliefs, politics or whatever); or else it might have been a parallel influence to other movements, if you see what I mean.

But (I personally don't believe that) reconstructionist religions are not dependent on neopagan religions for their existence (in terms of roots) or survival. They are based on vastly differing principles.

Most neopagan traditions, for example, owe something to ceremonial magic - casting circles, invoking elements, even the perception of deities - "all the gods are one god, and all the goddesses are one goddess, and there is but one intiator", to quote (or paraphrase) Dion Fortune. This is a popular concept in many neopagan paths, but a lot of recons might disagree (and to confuse matters, so might some neopagans, but you get me; it's a modern concept not generally accepted by recons who tend to emphasise historical beliefs). I realise that Wiccans, as an example again, regarded their beliefs as being a continuation of ancient beliefs, but this is generally no longer accepted, especially after the Triumph of the Moon. Some still might, and I hope I'm not offending anyone...

Neopagans might also incorporate New Age ideas, eastern ideas and so on. I realise I'm generalising a lot here.

Recons base their beliefs and practices on historical/archaeological evidence, cultural practice, and yes - personal gnosis, amongst other things. Some of these principles might overlap with neopaganism, but they aren't the same. Influences such as ceremonial magic are not generally found in recon practise, and also, recons are a lot less eclectic although might incorporate modern elements that are relevant to their lives, but usually in a specifically cultural sense.

Some recons might argue they are reviving a religion. Others may see themselves as continuing a religion (or perhaps even both). Most neopagans, I would say, don't - although they may draw elements from the same principles as a recon, they freely and comfortably admit they are practising something that is modern, with some historical influence, but which has relevance and resonance to them in this present time. As I said, the roots are different.

I hope you understand that this is my take on it, at the present time...I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I'm liable to change my mind. :D

[MorningDove030202]

I totaly agree with you. And Triumph of the Moon was a great book, btw. I read it earlier this summer.

I think it's odd that you claim that Reconstructionist thought developed in the 1970s, because in my experience I've come across the term very recently, within the past 5 years or so. (I began my NeoPagan faith in 1995.) But hey, that's just my experience, and I realize not as many book have been published about Reconstructionism than about Wicca.

I have also found so called Recons on other forums who were quite upset when I would exclude them from NeoPagan debates on different issues. I get the impression that the Recons as a whole have not together decided if they are Neo Pagan or not. As I stated before, it's not my decision, and currently you have both NeoPagan Recons and just Pagan Recons. It' just seams to me weird that a group using the word "Re-construct" To construct again, would not want to use the word new. If they arn't new then why are they "Reconstructing" a religion. However on the other hand, I understand that the Recons disaprove of eclecticism, and often time folk and cerimonal magick, and would prefer to be thought of as seperate from the NeoPagan Movement.

This is why I thought finding another name for the entire tree might be helpful...but nothing else fits as well as NeoPagan..... Pagan isn't specific enough, Earth based...well lets face it, it's not all earth based, and I thought "Modern Pagan" would be a step in the right direction, but it's confusing too. What we do all have incommon is that we are realively young faiths, we are all New Relgious Movements..... Maybe I could title the Tree
"New Pagan Religious Movements"......... and then Recon would not get filed under NeoPagan.....

Still I feel dispite our differences, the Recons are more like us NeoPagans than other kinds of religions. I feel that we can all benift from the historical research that these groups are doing and then inturn incorporate what we find meaningful into our own practices. I may not find all the historical ways Athena was worshiped meaningful or practical, however it would be good to know an expereince such a ritual just to gain a better understanding of the people she first inspired, and how she was first worshiped.

To go forward, we must know the truth of where we came from.

I would hope they would chose to stay on our NeoPagan family Tree, and also acknowledge their roots, in that if Gardner never made Wicca public, we probably wouldn't be here talking to each other right now.

Dove



A "modern" pagan family tree could imply any pagan who happens to be practising in modern times. You would have to expand your tree considerably then...

Trees have roots. To me, the roots of Wicca (for example) are widely different to those of reconstructionism. Logically, anything neopagan in a neopagan tree would have the same roots at the core of it....

Historically, as far as I'm aware, the reconstructionist religions began to become more popular in the 1970s. This may have been due to the increase in popularity of neopagan religions like Wicca, and the more "permissive" attitude of the times (in the sense of allowing for diversity in beliefs, politics or whatever); or else it might have been a parallel influence to other movements, if you see what I mean.

But (I personally don't believe that) reconstructionist religions are not dependent on neopagan religions for their existence (in terms of roots) or survival. They are based on vastly differing principles.

Most neopagan traditions, for example, owe something to ceremonial magic - casting circles, invoking elements, even the perception of deities - "all the gods are one god, and all the goddesses are one goddess, and there is but one intiator", to quote (or paraphrase) Dion Fortune. This is a popular concept in many neopagan paths, but a lot of recons might disagree (and to confuse matters, so might some neopagans, but you get me; it's a modern concept not generally accepted by recons who tend to emphasise historical beliefs). I realise that Wiccans, as an example again, regarded their beliefs as being a continuation of ancient beliefs, but this is generally no longer accepted, especially after the Triumph of the Moon. Some still might, and I hope I'm not offending anyone...

Neopagans might also incorporate New Age ideas, eastern ideas and so on. I realise I'm generalising a lot here.

Recons base their beliefs and practices on historical/archaeological evidence, cultural practice, and yes - personal gnosis, amongst other things. Some of these principles might overlap with neopaganism, but they aren't the same. Influences such as ceremonial magic are not generally found in recon practise, and also, recons are a lot less eclectic although might incorporate modern elements that are relevant to their lives, but usually in a specifically cultural sense.

Some recons might argue they are reviving a religion. Others may see themselves as continuing a religion (or perhaps even both). Most neopagans, I would say, don't - although they may draw elements from the same principles as a recon, they freely and comfortably admit they are practising something that is modern, with some historical influence, but which has relevance and resonance to them in this present time. As I said, the roots are different.

I hope you understand that this is my take on it, at the present time...I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I'm liable to change my mind. :D

[Seren_]

I think it's odd that you claim that Reconstructionist thought developed in the 1970s, because in my experience I've come across the term very recently, within the past 5 years or so. (I began my NeoPagan faith in 1995.) But hey, that's just my experience, and I realize not as many book have been published about Reconstructionism than about Wicca.

'Lo again.

My claim comes from what I've read, not my experience, admittedly (born 1979 and all that)....and I thought somebody would pick me up on that :D...

I really can't remember the source except suggesting Drawing Down the Moon and a good Google. Modern Pagans: An Investigation of Contemporary Pagan Practices might also help. I'll try and provide more concrete refrences later.

Reconstructionsim has certainly become more popular in recent years as you say, but I am fairly certain that it owes some origins in previous decades. How "authentic" that makes it is up to yours or anyones own defintion on the matter...Tastes vary.

Speaking of which, some defintition between "modern" and "contemporary" might help in your tree?


I have also found so called Recons on other forums who were quite upset when I would exclude them from NeoPagan debates on different issues. I get the impression that the Recons as a whole have not together decided if they are Neo Pagan or not. As I stated before, it's not my decision, and currently you have both NeoPagan Recons and just Pagan Recons. It' just seams to me weird that a group using the word "Re-construct" To construct again, would not want to use the word new. If they arn't new then why are they "Reconstructing" a religion. However on the other hand, I understand that the Recons disaprove of eclecticism, and often time folk and cerimonal magick, and would prefer to be thought of as seperate from the NeoPagan Movement.

Absolutely. The problem with any "umbrella" term is that a variety of people will have a variety of definitions (don't we all?). Some people - from my experience - will do anything to disassociate themselves from a neopagan definition if they define themselves as, say "Asaturar". This applies with Celtic, or anything else "recon".

To be fair, I would define myself as an Irish (Celtic) recon. In that sense, any arguments I have are based on my preconceptions.

In one sense, "recon" implies reconstructing something that has been lost. This would be true in a semantic sense, but as Erebus (I think) said on another thread (Dianic...), we can hardly be blamed for an inaccurate or inadequate term being appled to our beliefs (like "Satanist"), can we?

My point in the last post was that it's not semantic....it's based on "roots". How you interpret a recon is effectively based on your interpretation of the word...semantics...By your own interepretation it might make sense, but I'd say you'd at least have to prepare yourself to defend any position you take?

I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I would say be prepared...

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I totaly agree with you. And Triumph of the Moon was a great book, btw. I read it earlier this summer.

I think it's odd that you claim that Reconstructionist thought developed in the 1970s, because in my experience I've come across the term very recently, within the past 5 years or so. (I began my NeoPagan faith in 1995.) But hey, that's just my experience, and I realize not as many book have been published about Reconstructionism than about Wicca.

It definitely started sometime in the mid-70s, particularly if I remember correctly Asatru. Reconstructionism was covered in the 1979 edition of Margot Adler's book Drawing Down the Moon. Celtic Reconstructionism first took off in the 1980s with the actual term Celtic Reconstructionism becoming common around 1992 or 1993. As I'm more familiar with these two groups, I couldn't tell you when Roman, Hellenic, Egyptian, Slavic or Baltic Recon groups got their start.


It' just seams to me weird that a group using the word "Re-construct" To construct again, would not want to use the word new. If they arn't new then why are they "Reconstructing" a religion. However on the other hand, I understand that the Recons disaprove of eclecticism, and often time folk and cerimonal magick, and would prefer to be thought of as seperate from the NeoPagan Movement.

There are some groups who do actually use other terms beside Reconstructionist. At the moment they are slipping my mind, but I will post them when I recall. I know there is one group of CRs in particular who instead of calling it CR refer to their path as Aurrad, similar to how German Recons tend to go by either Asatru, Vanatru, Theodism, or Anglo-Saxon Heathenry; Egyptian Recons prefer Kemetic; Roman Recons use Religio Romano; and Baltic/Slavic Recons go by Romuva. There are many problems with the word reconstructionism as you pointed out, but similar to how all of the nearly 50 religions in India tend to get lumped into Hindu (which is inaccurate to say the least, and didn't come into usage until something like the mid 17th century iirc) it is easier to call us all reconstructionists for ease of identification.

[Seren_]

There are some groups who do actually use other terms beside Reconstructionist. At the moment they are slipping my mind, but I will post them when I recall. I know there is one group of CRs in particular who instead of calling it CR refer to their path as Aurrad, similar to how German Recons tend to go by either Asatru, Vanatru, Theodism, or Anglo-Saxon Heathenry; Egyptian Recons prefer Kemetic; Roman Recons use Religio Romano; and Baltic/Slavic Recons go by Romuva. There are many problems with the word reconstructionism as you pointed out, but similar to how all of the nearly 50 religions in India tend to get lumped into Hindu (which is inaccurate to say the least, and didn't come into usage until something like the mid 17th century iirc) it is easier to call us all reconstructionists for ease of identification.

I would argue, based on Kemetic arguments, that they differentiate between "Egyptian" and "Kemetic" because historically at the time they are reconstructing there was no such thing as "Egyptian", which is a modern word based on the Greek; and they are usually "Kemetic Orthodox", not recons per se.

Likewise, in the (temporary) absence of our resident expert, I would wonder whether Anglo-Saxon recons should get a separate branch to their norse brethren? They are, after all, taken out of the normal, indigenous, context of Germanic/Scandinavian (my bad geography can't decide between which or other...) traditions, and are a branch unto themselves...otherwise they wouldn't be called such.

I hope I'm making some sense....I need caffeine or sleep right now :foh:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I would argue, based on Kemetic arguments, that they differentiate between "Egyptian" and "Kemetic" because historically at the time they are reconstructing there was no such thing as "Egyptian", which is a modern word based on the Greek; and they are usually "Kemetic Orthodox", not recons per se.

Well if that's the case then us CR's need to find a new word, because the modern Celtic comes from the Greek Keltoi and was not a word that the "Celtic" tribes used to refer to themselves. See what I'm saying here. Yes Kemets are Kemetic Orthodox, but they are "reconstructing" the religion of the ancient Egyptian/Kemetic people and so it would make sense to lump them in with other "reconstructionist" groups.


Likewise, in the (temporary) absence of our resident expert, I would wonder whether Anglo-Saxon recons should get a separate branch to their norse brethren? They are, after all, taken out of the normal, indigenous, context of Germanic/Scandinavian (my bad geography can't decide between which or other...) traditions, and are a branch unto themselves...otherwise they wouldn't be called such.

Good point...that is why I personally just go by Germanic tribes, so as to entirely avoid the problem of Norse vs Anglo-Saxon vs Icelandic, etc.

[Seren_]

Well if that's the case then us CR's need to find a new word, because the modern Celtic comes from the Greek Keltoi and was not a word that the "Celtic" tribes used to refer to themselves. See what I'm saying here. Yes Kemets are Kemetic Orthodox, but they are "reconstructing" the religion of the ancient Egyptian/Kemetic people and so it would make sense to lump them in with other "reconstructionist" groups.


Exactly...I didn't mean to imply Kemets should be considered separately from other recons, but was using it as an example of how at least one recon group would not necessarily consider themself recon or neopagan, and how they might separate themself. If that makes any sense?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Perfect sense. I go by the name recon, because it is one people most identify with my path. If I were to call myself something else (drat, I wish could remember the other terms that have been proposed) I doubt too many people would know what I'm talking about. Then again, I honestly feel that the closest description of my path, as I don't like pagan or neo-pagan, is polytheist. Pagan doesn't make sense as it's a Roman word, and to me it only makes sense to be used to describe ancient Roman cultural beliefs. Polytheist works well enough for me, and probably would work pretty well for any recon as well the paths of the people the follow tended to be polytheistic (I know there are differences as from what I remember reading Kemetic seem to be more along the lines of soft polytheists).

[MorningDove030202]

Perfect sense. I go by the name recon, because it is one people most identify with my path. If I were to call myself something else (drat, I wish could remember the other terms that have been proposed) I doubt too many people would know what I'm talking about. Then again, I honestly feel that the closest description of my path, as I don't like pagan or neo-pagan, is polytheist. Pagan doesn't make sense as it's a Roman word, and to me it only makes sense to be used to describe ancient Roman cultural beliefs. Polytheist works well enough for me, and probably would work pretty well for any recon as well the paths of the people the follow tended to be polytheistic (I know there are differences as from what I remember reading Kemetic seem to be more along the lines of soft polytheists).


I guess if a group aiming for historical accuracy doesn't like the term Reconstructionist, then they ought to not use it. I think creating new and more accurate names is a good thing, so what if people arn't familer with them, eventualy it will become familer.

Dove

[Moonstoned]

'I YAM WHAT I YAM' :hahugh:

Seriously, I feel a deep connection with Nature, I do spells (but I don't call them that) however I like, when and wherever I like. I don't have any hangups about rules or whether I am doing anything according to a book. I read the books when I started all this and I have retained what works for me.

I have never found a term I feel happy with, this is about my spirituality and my link to the thread that runs through everything, the forces and energy within all that surrounds us.

I am happy for people to call me a witch. :broomride I am not Wiccan. I do this stuff on my own so Solitary works for me.

As you can see I have no answers on the 'path' front, but I am really fine about that.

It's all good :colorful:

[Dark Phoenix]

I'm following an Eclectic Wiccan path which I feel into and for now speaks to me, at some latter time I might decide to go down another path.

[Crystal_Raye]

I'm not sure exactly what I am yet. I just kinda believe and practice what feels right to me. Maybe I can make up my own religion.

[Psyche Ague]

I consider myself to be an Animist, but that's just a philosophy of sorts. It does dictate how I live my life, though. However, I consider myself religiously to be an Earth Worshipper - the Earth is sacred, all Her creatures are sacred, etc. This also dictates how I live in that I am a rabid environmentalist and truly believe that humans are meant to be the stewards of the Earth.

[MorningDove030202]

I consider myself to be an Animist, but that's just a philosophy of sorts. It does dictate how I live my life, though. However, I consider myself religiously to be an Earth Worshipper - the Earth is sacred, all Her creatures are sacred, etc. This also dictates how I live in that I am a rabid environmentalist and truly believe that humans are meant to be the stewards of the Earth.


Sounds like you might be a Gaian or Gaists. From what I gather they focus totaly on nature, sometimes in a very scientific way, and they arn't into spells per se, or even mythology. They ususaly have something to do with the Gaia Hypothesis. They almost arn't Pagan (espeicaly if they arn't into mythology of any kind).

Dove

[Tsuchimaru]

What do spells and mythology have to do with being Pagan? I don't do spells, and I really don't believe in Gods or Goddesses. Does this mean I'm -not- Pagan?

[Raven Heart]

druidic wiccan

[MorningDove030202]

What do spells and mythology have to do with being Pagan? I don't do spells, and I really don't believe in Gods or Goddesses. Does this mean I'm -not- Pagan?

Well, you don't have to do spells to be pagan, and using the names of Gods as magickal metapaphors in ritual is ok even if you don't literaly belive in them, but mostly I'm refering to Goddess Monotheists who don't drawl on mythology for various names of the Goddess. I mean to me to be Neo Pagan you have to drawl upon some Pagan panthenon, right? And that involves mythology. I just don't get why someone would claim Pagan, if they don't get something out of the study of mythology?

You can have a non Pagan Earth Centered faith, which is totaly valid, I just wouldn't call it Pagan.

Dove

[Kadynas]

I voted other... please don't hurt me! :lol:

My path is Hellenic Wicca, but more emphasis on the Hellenic than the Wicca if that makes any sense to anyone but me! :lol: (At the same time though, I'm /not/ a recon.)

[MorningDove030202]

I voted other... please don't hurt me! :lol:

My path is Hellenic Wicca, but more emphasis on the Hellenic than the Wicca if that makes any sense to anyone but me! :lol: (At the same time though, I'm /not/ a recon.)

Why would I hurt you??? LOL

Dove

[Tsuchimaru]

Well, you don't have to do spells to be pagan, and using the names of Gods as magickal metapaphors in ritual is ok even if you don't literaly belive in them, but mostly I'm refering to Goddess Monotheists who don't drawl on mythology for various names of the Goddess. I mean to me to be Neo Pagan you have to drawl upon some Pagan panthenon, right? And that involves mythology. I just don't get why someone would claim Pagan, if they don't get something out of the study of mythology?

You can have a non Pagan Earth Centered faith, which is totaly valid, I just wouldn't call it Pagan.

Dove

So....I'm not Pagan because I believe in Animism rather than a God/dess?

EDIT: Bah, to hell with it. I don't need a label. I am what I am. Why am I listening to -one- person's opinion?

[MorningDove030202]

Well, no one here said you had to listen to anyone. And by all means don't listen to me, I could be wrong.

Dove

[Nantonos]

My path is Hellenic Wicca, but more emphasis on the Hellenic than the Wicca if that makes any sense to anyone but me! :lol: (At the same time though, I'm /not/ a recon.)

Yeah it makes sense. It makes you a well-informed non-fluffy eclectic™.

[Kern]

Very good article on the different Paths
http://wicca.timerift.net/wicca101/wwp.html

[wakywitch]

I voted for other.
Just read the descriptions on the 1st posting, and I should change my vote to Neo-pagan.
I am eclectic with a basis in wicca.

Personally don't like labels and restricting myself to one path or belief.
Does that make sense? :lol:

[BlackBathory]

Reconstrutionist i guess, hee

i m a follower of Romuva and i practise Slavic Witchcraft so i m also a non wiccan witch.

so i guess 2 things

[Honey]

Their are so many paths it is impossible to numerate them.
It is important for us to find our own path.
It is not a good thing to be stuck between two paths, for when this happend disharmony and low self esteem prevaile.
Find what sings to your heart and soul and you will know you are on the correct path for yourself!

[Morning Star]

Their are so many paths it is impossible to numerate them.
It is important for us to find our own path.
It is not a good thing to be stuck between two paths, for when this happend disharmony and low self esteem prevaile.
Find what sings to your heart and soul and you will know you are on the correct path for yourself!

By path, you do not mean tradition do you? I mean, you are not saying that we should pick one and only one tradition.

[Willow_starr]

Other: Part of the Reclaiming Tradition and learning more about Celtic mythology and spirituality.

[omar]

Other: Part of the Reclaiming Tradition and learning more about Celtic mythology and spirituality.
Have you read "Taliesen" The Last Celtic Shaman,by Mathews?

[Fang of Loki]

I voted other.

I follow a mixed path. Both Druidry & Shamanism combined.

[kissesree]

Their are so many paths it is impossible to numerate them.
It is important for us to find our own path.
It is not a good thing to be stuck between two paths, for when this happend disharmony and low self esteem prevaile.
Find what sings to your heart and soul and you will know you are on the correct path for yourself!I agree.:hmmmmm: I was raised wiccan and found myself straing, but I wound up being a wiccan kitchen witch.......

[Pure Ahimsa]

I consider myself a Wicca, because Wicca is an old word meaning Male Witch, so I am a witch (in the English langauge) but also a Wicca, Wicce means Female Witch.
:fpeace:

[Lady Khaibit]

I'm an Eclectic that follows the ways of Qabala, Shamanism, Hermetica, Enochian, and Gnosticsm. Yeah, its a mouth-full, but I don't believe that there is one right or wrong way to practice. I've just been studying many of these paths for so long that they have incorperated themselves into by struture of belief... did that make any sense? Oh Hades! I'm rambling again... I'd better lay of the coffee!!

[arowind]

well. i dont exactly know. i guess its just me following love all its own, and doing what my mind tells me. i dont have any set diety, except for a god and goddess, cause for some reason my head says there has to be or NOTHING would make ANY sense.. would that be wicca? not really, because i have no diety. does anyone know? i dont. but maybe im just special :> thats a good thought.

[AlAskendir]

[QUOTE=MorningDove030202]Updated to reflect the status of the current discussion.

If you don't consider yourself NEO PAGAN please do not vote!

Ok, I'd like to put together an Educational Poster for Pagan Pride Day and I'd like it to explain about not just Wicca, but the various other "NeoPagan" paths..... As I see it there are:

Wicca
Non-Wiccan Witch
Druid
Reconstructionists
Non-Denominational NeoPagan
Non Reconstructionist Ethnic Pagan Groups

unfortunately, to be accurate, you're pretty much going to have to take the number of wide catagories (for example, most people consider 'Egyptian' to be 1 path, though Egypt was there for thousands of years and had almost as many varieties of spirituality in any 300 of those years as America has had since 1705), and multiply that by the estimated number of Pagans in the world for the basic number, then square that for the actual number.

[AlAskendir]

Asatru
Santeria
Voudon
Native American paths (many)
Church of All Worlds
Radical Faerie
Women's Spirituality

...I also think that many of the "ethnic" groups aren't necessarily Recon. There are Egyptian, Roman, and Greek groups that aren't focused on Reconstruction so much as recreation; their emphasis is more modern.

...There's also the magical/occult people who aren't necessarily Pagan, such as the Thelemites and CMs.

and New Thought, and Theosophists, and....etc

[twofeathers111063]

mm
i am a kitchen/hearth witch
mp

[Danuko]

My path and practice are very eclectic. I tend to do a lot of by the seat of my pants work. There are a number of things that blend together to form the basis for my path- I am UU as well as neopagan. I draw heavily on past-life memories for some of my practices. I also have several abilities of a metaphysical nature that I believe have their origins in the nature of my soul and my past selves. My practice tends heavily towards the metaphysical but also includes dramatic ritual. I am polytheistic but have several deities that have a specific claim on me/draw for me for several reasons. I believe myself to be nonhuman in soul.

Yes, that all makes for a rather odd time of it sometimes..... but it suits me like nothing else could because it's a path woven from the very fabric of my being.

~Aine

[Irena_chaosmoon]

I consider my self a mixture of Correllian Wicca and Stregheria, mixing aspects. I love the ritual and form to Wiccan ceremonies, but I also love the simplicity of worshiping Diana and Lucifer, burning some simple incense mix (usually rue, vervain, and a couple others when I'm prayer for something specific), and raising the power of a flame.

[Lupercus]

_wiz_ I would have to go with Non- Wiccan Witch. That is as close as it gets to my path which is an intersect of Strega (my family faith and my chosen religion) but influenced by the other Trads i have worked within or have come in contact with (Gardnerian, British Trad, Minoan Brotherhood etc.) All have added their imprint to my belief and practice.

[lia_amberwolf]

I am trining to become a Gardinarian Priestess. My High priest is a High Priest in not only Gardinarian, but Egyptian, and Green Wicca. just because a path isn't "Neo Pagan" dosn't mean it isn't pagan. Pagan is "any polythiestic earth-based religion" in my mind.

[highviolet]

there is only one path


.....think about it

[Eclecta]

I am an eclectic spiritualist. Some call me a Satanist.. I chose to be called a spirtualist..

[merlo]

I'm having problems defining me, but the closest I come up with is moon cycle following, tree of life zoning, pentacle wearing ahnk tatooed wandering scribe who enjoys the #@%& outta this incarnation and tells people I'm pagan. But that's today, tomorrow...

[Tim]

I am a Hellenic NeoPagan (not a reconstructionist).

[zilith]

Well I voted Shamanism since that is the most recent but I incorperate all different parts from different places to become: A Lutheran Pagan Satanist Wiccan Shaman with hints of Budhism and Taoism.

[Negruperla]

A Hellenic (Greek Pantheon) Pagan
giah, that's me... not "Neo"

[Meadhbh]

I think it would be impossible to really pin a number on the amount of paths out there. Some of them only have one or two people on it and I'm sure we'll never hear of them.

[Tanya]

count up every aspiring neo-pagan snob and multiply by 6

[redbint]

Loadsa paths I say Wicca/Witch!!!

[VioletJadeWolf]

Working on a sort of Magick Christian (likely Catholic Craft) path.

[Whitewolf]

I'm a polytheist pagan with leanings towards shamanism/animism.

I think it's hard to figure out exactly how many paths are out there.

[Chaos Hawk]

I follow the Druid path, but I wouldn't call that Neo-Pagan.

[Marcel]

I believe there is a path for each Spirit having an Earth experience. I believe there are Spirits having tree experiences, animal experiences, grass experiences, human experiences, fish experience, possibly even having mountain and water and such experience. (No intending to leave any Spirit out) :cutie:

[Juniper138]

There is a different path for every different person. Traditions and religions are like road maps. Or should be. You're the one whose driving after all.

I could have picked non Wiccan witch, or recon even, maybe non demonational pagan. But went with shamanism/animism instead.

Hedgewitch.

[Stoirmeacha]

There are a jillion. to be specific.

:lol:

I'm an Irish Recon, but Im also an animist. I think animism can be combined with most paths easily.
I'm an Irish CR, too, but animism isn't seperate from CR theology, it is a basic CR belief.