Dianic?

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Why do the Dianic Wiccans who do not allow men in their covens or to follow,choose Diana to worship? She bore Aradia who was to teach Witchcraft to all male and female who wish to learn.
There was not "Women Only policies"
I was speaking to a Dianic. They also take away some facts to fit them.

1 Diana did not have sex with her Brother Lucifer (not the biblical one) They claim she had Aradia with no help.

They also claim Aradia only taught women.

You can't rewrite something to fit your beliefs.
I have a hard time with Wiccan traditions who change history and folklore to suit their needs.


OK I'm finnished ranting.

December

[Amethyst Rose]

Well, for one, not all Dianics exclude a god in their beliefs, some simply just do not worship one. As for those who don't acknowledge any god at all....I have no clue.

[HolographicJoe]

We make up aproximatley 1/2 the pop., like it or not. We weren't created simply to enslave the other 1/2.

Denying the masculine is as dangerous, hateful, and frankly, unrealistic, as denying the feminine. I just don't understand why we can't f'n get along.

one man's opinion.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

We make up aproximatley 1/2 the pop., like it or not. We weren't created simply to enslave the other 1/2.

Denying the masculine is as dangerous, hateful, and frankly, unrealistic, as denying the feminine. I just don't understand why we can't f'n get along.

one man's opinion.


I AGREE 100%

[teishabee]

A bit of choas is always good if you ask me, but equal rights is what we should all be aiming for in the end

[Lunacie]

I was introduced to some Dianic Wiccans about 10-12 years ago. They were so confused that they claimed not only that men cannot understand the women's mysteries, men can not access or perform magic at all.

Recently a lesbian couple petitioned our small circle to be allowed to join. I don't have a problem with them being lesbian, but I'm afraid that one of them has picked up some of these notions that were never part of the original Dianic Wicca. Looks like our work of education will continue. :)

For information on Dianic Wicca, I found this article on witchvox:
http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_dianicwiccan.html

[RhiannynWildseed]

We have a Dianic Coven in our area, and, quite frankly, they give me the heebee-jeebees. I peeked at their site one day, and it was posting an upcoming event they were going to have, a Sabbat celebration I believe. They were going to "allow" their husbands, bfs, whatever to come along, but the dress code was bikinis or swimsuits for the women and loincloths......LOINCLOTHS......for the men. Now, is it just me, or does that just smack of sexism?

Rhiannyn

[ObsidianShenKa]

I have a penis.

Therefore, Dianics hate me.

[teishabee]

and most women bitch about you.

[ObsidianShenKa]

Problem is?

[teishabee]

Nothing same said the other way. I thought we where stating the obvious. :razz:

[Lunacie]

Please don't derail the thread, folks.

[teishabee]

sorry.

Saying all those things.Im quite drawn to dianic witchcraft but only becuws of diana but then I dont think any goddess is anything without the god staying by them.

[ObsidianShenKa]

Pssh. :rolleyes:

[Cinnamon Girl]

While I'm not Dianic, I do see it as a valid and to some, fulfilling spiritual path. Not all Dianics only work with the goddess and not all Dianic groups do not allow men - but really, if they do, what business is it of yours? There are plenty of choices in the Wiccan and Pagan faiths - go find one that does suit you and leave the Dianics to theirs.

Personally, I don't have a problem with worshipping only one gender in deity - for example, I don't think the Christian faith is lacking because they don't have a female divine figure. The idea is that the deity is complete in and of itself, and holds both 'masculine' and 'feminine' energies and traits.

You'll find a more in-depth and articulate discussion on the Dianic path here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=50481

[Desdemona]

My first introduction to Wicca was through a Dianic coven. They are in danger of dying out, as all the members are aging, and the HP is actively petitioning a man to take over. I applaud her courage to embrace change, she will likely lose her registration with Covenenant of the Goddess, but she doesn't care. It's more important to her that the group she has been leading carry on. And he is the best one for the job.

[ObsidianShenKa]

To Hel with the CoG then.

[Desdemona]

To Hel with the CoG then.
That's what she's sayin' :thumbsup:

[ObsidianShenKa]

\m/

It's taking all I got not to scream "F—K DIANICS!" at the top of my lungs.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

While I'm not Dianic, I do see it as a valid and to some, fulfilling spiritual path. Not all Dianics only work with the goddess and not all Dianic groups do not allow men - but really, if they do, what business is it of yours? There are plenty of choices in the Wiccan and Pagan faiths - go find one that does suit you and leave the Dianics to theirs.

Personally, I don't have a problem with worshipping only one gender in deity - for example, I don't think the Christian faith is lacking because they don't have a female divine figure. The idea is that the deity is complete in and of itself, and holds both 'masculine' and 'feminine' energies and traits.

You'll find a more in-depth and articulate discussion on the Dianic path here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=50481


That's not my problem, my problem is them making up or rewriting the story of Diana.


December

[Strawberry Bounce]

Why do the Dianic Wiccans who do not allow men in their covens or to follow,choose Diana to worship? She bore Aradia who was to teach Witchcraft to all male and female who wish to learn.
There was not "Women Only policies"
I was speaking to a Dianic. They also take away some facts to fit them.

1 Diana did not have sex with her Brother Lucifer (not the biblical one) They claim she had Aradia with no help.

They also claim Aradia only taught women.

You can't rewrite something to fit your beliefs.
I have a hard time with Wiccan traditions who change history and folklore to suit their needs.


OK I'm finnished ranting.


DecemberNot all Dianics worship Diana. I don't. I have never researched Diana, besides what I have read in Dianic books so I can't speak on that part.

[Strawberry Bounce]

We make up aproximatley 1/2 the pop., like it or not. We weren't created simply to enslave the other 1/2.

Denying the masculine is as dangerous, hateful, and frankly, unrealistic, as denying the feminine. I just don't understand why we can't f'n get along.

one man's opinion.I only worship a Goddess because that is what I feel called to do. I feel no connection to any of the male Gods & I can't help that. I am not a dangerous or hateful either.

[Strawberry Bounce]

I was introduced to some Dianic Wiccans about 10-12 years ago. They were so confused that they claimed not only that men cannot understand the women's mysteries, men can not access or perform magic at all.

I don't agree with that. Ofcourse they should be able to practise magick.

[Strawberry Bounce]

I have a penis.

Therefore, Dianics hate me.http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/angel.gif I don't hate you.

[Strawberry Bounce]

\m/

It's taking all I got not to scream "F—K DIANICS!" at the top of my lungs.:smash: Wow!

[Strawberry Bounce]

I don't belong to any coven, but if a coven is focusing on Women mysteries, why would a man want to be there?

[Pandoras]

That's not my problem, my problem is them making up or rewriting the story of Diana.

I'm sorry. I'm a bit ignorant on this subject.

Which story would this be? Which Diana are we referring to? And who is Aradia?

Are we talking about Leland?

[BlackMadonna]

My first introduction to Wicca was through a Dianic coven. They are in danger of dying out, as all the members are aging, and the HP is actively petitioning a man to take over

Contrary to popular belief, there are many a High Priest in Dianic covens.



I applaud her courage to embrace change, she will likely lose her registration with Covenenant of the Goddess, but she doesn't care.

How so?


It's more important to her that the group she has been leading carry on. And he is the best one for the job.

I applaude her courage to embrace change as well.

Dianic's are not about male bashing, however, insecure males do tend to see them as such.

From the web site Metareligion:

"Another form of Wicca, Dianic , also began to emerge in the United States in 1971. Unlike other traditions, Dianic focuses on the worship of Diana, the ancient greek Goddess and consequently, a higher percentage of women and feminist beliefs are found in Dianic covens. The Dianic tradition formed in two separate locations; first in Venice, California by Zsuzsanne Emese Budapest and in Dallas, Texas by Morgan McFarland and Mark Roberts (Melton, 782).

The California Dianics are separatist feminist Goddess worshippers, founded by Budapest. The Texas Dianics are polytheists, with no particular emphasis on either Goddess or God, according to initiates. By far, the largest number of modern pagans are not members of Gardnerian type covens -- the term "Dianic" was used by the Gardnerian- based groups to identify the groups not based on Gardnerian or Alexandrian initiations. It has been used as a term of derision toward the goddess worshippers by others, rarely does someone self-identify as Dianic, except in the case of initiates of the Texas Dianics, who use the term to describe themselves, largely because Diana was one of the tutelary deities of the group."

[BlackHoodedCrow]

I'm sorry. I'm a bit ignorant on this subject.

Which story would this be? Which Diana are we referring to? And who is Aradia?

Are we talking about Leland?


Yes, Charles Leland

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Dianic focuses on the worship of Diana, the ancient greek Goddess

Artemis was the Greek Goddess. Diana is Roman.




The Goddess Diana

The goddess Diana was very highly worshipped in ancient Rome. Her greek counterpart, fell under the name Artemis. Diana in Roman worship, was known as well as a maiden huntress, protector of all that is wild and free. This is virtually the same context that the greek Artemis fell under. However, as centuries past and ancient Rome grew, so did the followings of the goddess Diana.

Diana no longer was classed simply as a maiden huntress, but grew to the status of motherhood. By the birth of her daughter Ariadia. Then her path grew as well, to become known as the Queen of Witches.



December

[Strawberry Bounce]

In the book "The Holy book of Women's mysteries, Z Budapest defines The Dianic tradition as : A woman centered female only traditon of Women's mysteries, but not confined to the Goddess Diana alone. We relate to global goddess as they were worshiped by ethinc groups around the world. The name Dianic was inspired by the Goddess Diana because she loved that name.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

In the book "The Holy book of Women's mysteries, Z Budapest defines The Dianic tradition as : A woman centered female only traditon of Women's mysteries, but not confined to the Goddess Diana alone. We relate to global goddess as they were worshiped by ethinc groups around the world. The name Dianic was inspired by the Goddess Diana because she loved that name.






She liked the name? Sounds a bit shallow.

December

[Strawberry Bounce]

She liked the name? Sounds a bit shallow.

December
LOL there was other reasons too. I assume she feels a connection with her.

[lightdragon]

I don't belong to any coven, but if a coven is focusing on Women mysteries, why would a man want to be there?
My theories are as the following to this statement:
1. To learn balance of both masculine and femine. Since the man already knows masculine aspects he might want to learn femine. It would be why would a woman want to learn men's mysteries.Maybe you do not,but some female might.
2. He is a submissive and reguards women or women's mysteries as the only way to go.

I could give another theory. But that one would mean he doesn`t take the concept seriously.

[lightdragon]

BTW Strawberry Bounce you are the first Dianic to my knowledge that i was able to talk with.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

LOL there was other reasons too. I assume she feels a connection with her.


Ahhh Gotcha! :floating:

December

[Pandoras]

[I]By the birth of her daughter Ariadia. Then her path grew as well, to become known as the Queen of Witches.

I'm with you right up until this sentence.

Could someone please provide some historical something to back this? I've never actually heard of Diana's daughter Aradia, the Queen of the Witches in anything except Leland which I always understood as being more witchcraft revival than actual history.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Yes, Charles Leland

Just making sure I understand you correctly - are you saying Leland is the source for your history?

[BlackHoodedCrow]

No this piticular Dianic Coven uses Lelands Book. But, eliminates a few things to suit there beliefs.

December

[halfwaynowhere]

I'm an eclectic, but I do follow some Dianic beliefs... I believe in Diana and Aradia.. I don't beleive that men are unworthy... I don't see how people could exclude men from learning and believing in something like that... I can't really word this right, but I hope you get what I'm saying...

[Caeridwynn]

Well, I consider myself Dianic, but i'm not a lesbian, I don't hate men and I don't think men shouldn't be allowed to be Dianic.

My Dianic beliefs consist of honoring both the Goddess and the God, I do this by honoring the God at the Sabbats, but I worship the Goddess specifically at all other times.

I am a solitary Witch, so in regards to female only covens, I don't know much. I would guess that they don't want to work with the male energy and focus solely on the female energy, so therefore they work with all women. What a better way to raise all female energy than with a group of women? But, again, I don't think that men should be barred from joining a Dianic coven. I know men that say they are Dianic and are part of a co-ed Dianic coven.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with whoever said something along the lines of "why do you care?" when you can easily find the path that's right for YOU. Why worry about who, what, why, when and where a Dianic Witch practices? There are paths that I don't neccissarily agree with, but I don't waste my time worrying about why they practice or believe in what they do. I just go on with my life...

[Desdemona]

Dianic's are not about male bashing, however, insecure males do tend to see them as such.How about the insecure females I heard bashing males after the Esbat? Including the HP? The rest of the evening I had to listen to vitriol about ex's and divorces.

I know this is not indicative of all Dianic covens. I also realize that some women prefer to work with just women, feeling that it is a more nurturing and safe environment, especially if thre are issues of rape or abuse.

I don't know if this particular coven will lose their registration, my HP seems to think this is possible. They were not supportive in her attempts to back her priest as an elder, so I guess she has that history to go on. Every region is different, and petty power struggles happen in every society. ;)

[Seren_]

I was under the impression that a "Dianic" comes from Margaret Murray's "Dianus and Diana" theory that these were the gods of the witches. Nothing to do with the Roman Diana per se....

[ObsidianShenKa]

Not all Dianics worship Diana. I don't. I have never researched Diana, besides what I have read in Dianic books so I can't speak on that part.
Hmm. A Dianic who doesn't worship Diana.

That's like a Christian who doesn't revere Christ.

Or a Buddhist who doesn't heed the wisdom of Buddha.

...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem a little ridiculous to insinuate that you're Dianic if you don't worship Diana? o_O

[ObsidianShenKa]

http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/angel.gif I don't hate you.
You're not a Dianic. You don't worship Diana :D

[ObsidianShenKa]

I don't belong to any coven, but if a coven is focusing on Women mysteries, why would a man want to be there?
:shaker:

BAH.

[ObsidianShenKa]

BTW Strawberry Bounce you are the first Dianic to my knowledge that i was able to talk with.
...you amaze me, bro. I'm about ready to start breaking forum rules regarding this chica.

[Strawberry Bounce]

Hmm. A Dianic who doesn't worship Diana.

That's like a Christian who doesn't revere Christ.

Or a Buddhist who doesn't heed the wisdom of Buddha.

...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem a little ridiculous to insinuate that you're Dianic if you don't worship Diana? o_O
If you say so. Dianicism is about worshiping the Goddess only, among other things. Diana being your specific Goddess is not a requirement.

[ObsidianShenKa]

Not to banter about semantics, but that would make you a Goddess worshipper.

Not a Dianic.

Kind of like how believing in a god makes you a Deist, but not a Jew.

...see my point?

[Strawberry Bounce]

I was under the impression that a "Dianic" comes from Margaret Murray's "Dianus and Diana" theory that these were the gods of the witches. Nothing to do with the Roman Diana per se....
I think that is what some call Old Dianic, to distinguish it from the one that is Goddess/ Women only.

[Strawberry Bounce]

Not to banter about semantics, but that would make you a Goddess worshipper.

Not a Dianic.

Kind of like how believing in a god makes you a Deist, but not a Jew.

...see my point?
Following the core beliefs would make me Dianic.

[ObsidianShenKa]

Whatever.

You're about two steps from the iggy bin. I can't stand you.

[Strawberry Bounce]

I was just responding to what you were typing to me. Feel free to put me on ignore.:nonono:

[Pan]

Okay. I have a huge problem with "Dianic Wicca".

Wiccans can not be Dianic, as far as I know the definition of Wicca to be. And as far as what Strawberry Bounce is classifying Dianic to be.

Wicca, in essence, is the duality of the Divine. God and Goddess.

Dianic, by definition, is the belief in the Goddess alone.

See the contradiction?

[ObsidianShenKa]

Call yourself what you will. Doesn't make you right. :)

And Loki, it surprises you that she's contradicting herself?

[Strawberry Bounce]

Wiccans can not be Dianic, as far as I know the definition of Wicca to be. And as far as what Strawberry Bounce is classifying Dianic to be.

Wicca, in essence, is the duality of the Divine. God and Goddess.

Dianic, by definition, is the belief in the Goddess alone.

See the contradiction?I agree. That's why I don't call myself a Dianic Wiccan, but a Dianic pagan.

[BlackMadonna]

I know this is not indicative of all Dianic covens. I also realize that some women prefer to work with just women, feeling that it is a more nurturing and safe environment, especially if thre are issues of rape or abuse.

And some women just want to work with other women and it isn't a man hating thing OR a woman loving thing. Someone queried why it was anyone's business, and I echo that query. Why would it concern anyone whether a woman worships with other women only?


I don't know if this particular coven will lose their registration, my HP seems to think this is possible. They were not supportive in her attempts to back her priest as an elder, so I guess she has that history to go on. Every region is different, and petty power struggles happen in every society. ;)

She can always go AoS in CoG if she wishes to remain within the membership.

[Desdemona]

And some women just want to work with other women and it isn't a man hating thing OR a woman loving thing. Someone queried why it was anyone's business, and I echo that query. Why would it concern anyone whether a woman worships with other women only?Your point is a valid one. In this particular instance, I think the only people who are concerned are the ones who want to worship with women only, and find out a man is leading the worship.
She can always go AoS in CoG if she wishes to remain within the membership.Thank you for that info. I will ask her if she is going to do that. :)

[HolographicJoe]

Just back away, man. :noway:

[ObsidianShenKa]

*spins "I Could Care Less" by Devildriver*

[teishabee]

what she do, she just said she was dianic and not even the definition where all hooting about.

[lightdragon]

...you amaze me, bro. I'm about ready to start breaking forum rules regarding this chica.

Believe or not i take that as a compliment.

[lightdragon]

Hmm. A Dianic who doesn't worship Diana.

That's like a Christian who doesn't revere Christ.

Or a Buddhist who doesn't heed the wisdom of Buddha.

...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem a little ridiculous to insinuate that you're Dianic if you don't worship Diana? o_O

trying to make sense of what she saying here.

Here is something from witchvoxhttp://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_dianic.html
to be more precise, here is the statement from that page she is probably refering to:

One might suspect that the Goddess celebrated by Dianics is Diana; however, this deduction is incorrect. Dianics do not focus specifically on any one Goddess or pantheon. Stemming from the multicultural roots of feminist ideology Dianics, on the whole, are global in their approach to divinity. With a conscious of the possibility of cultural appropriation, Dianics celebrate the Goddess in all her forms. The presence of the Goddess in all cultures unites all women.

[IvyWitch]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

The only real mythological reference to Lucifer outside of Christianity is Roman mythology, and he is a very very very minor God - he is the son of Aurora. No mention of Diana whatsoever.

[lightdragon]

Okay. I have a huge problem with "Dianic Wicca".

Wiccans can not be Dianic, as far as I know the definition of Wicca to be. And as far as what Strawberry Bounce is classifying Dianic to be.

Wicca, in essence, is the duality of the Divine. God and Goddess.

Dianic, by definition, is the belief in the Goddess alone.

See the contradiction?
I see where the conflicts and contradictions are occuring. All they have to do is not call themselves "Dianic Wicca" and just call it "Dianic Paganism" i think that would be simplier.
I just came home from work so i missed Strawberry's response on calling herself Dianic pagan.

Even on all the variations of Dianics. including the mixed-gendered Dianics. And before BOTH Obsidian and Strawberry start accusing me of doing drugs.
Here is a link to it
http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_mgdianic.html

[lightdragon]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

The only real mythological reference to Lucifer outside of Christianity is Roman mythology, and he is a very very very minor God - he is the son of Aurora. No mention of Diana whatsoever.
I don`t have the expertise to answer this. how about we summon Raven Grimassi out of the author's circle to answer this. and i`m not joking on this.

[IvyWitch]

I don`t have the expertise to answer this. how about we summon Raven Grimassi out of the author's circle to answer this. and i`m not joking on this.

Well, since I'm almost positive that he's referenced it in his work, but regardless there is still a lot of controversy over it still. I dunno....considering I can't find any reference to Aradia in any other book on mythology other than Leland's book and I think Grimassi's work, even when looking at Etruscan stuff, I feel like it's kinda shady.

But, of course I could be wrong.

[lightdragon]

that's why i wanted to bring him in here.

Anyhow he stated where he got his source material for Aradia in this thread
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=62588 .

[Seren_]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

The only real mythological reference to Lucifer outside of Christianity is Roman mythology, and he is a very very very minor God - he is the son of Aurora. No mention of Diana whatsoever.


Who was Aradia? The History and Development of a Legend (http://chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/pom18/aradia.html)

This might help, if anyone's interested.

[Aelfoak]

You can't rewrite something to fit your beliefs.
I have a hard time with Wiccan traditions who change history and folklore to suit their needs.


OK I'm finnished ranting.

December
Wicca is just a made up belief anyway, and some Wiccans create stuff as they go along, my girlfriend has been following the Witchcraft path for many years now and she finds some of the Wiccan ways hillarious, but if they want to make things up and it makes them happy then so be it.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Wicca is just a made up belief anyway, and some Wiccans create stuff as they go along, my girlfriend has been following the Witchcraft path for many years now and she finds some of the Wiccan ways hillarious, but if they want to make things up and it makes them happy then so be it.


Well then, Don't get mad when Christians rewrite the bible :-)

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

The only real mythological reference to Lucifer outside of Christianity is Roman mythology, and he is a very very very minor God - he is the son of Aurora. No mention of Diana whatsoever.


Neither are ANY of the Celtic stories. Most if not all Celtic Mythology was lost yet people still practice "Celtic Paganism"
There is a lot on Roman Mythology out there you would be supprised.

D

[teishabee]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

The only real mythological reference to Lucifer outside of Christianity is Roman mythology, and he is a very very very minor God - he is the son of Aurora. No mention of Diana whatsoever.
Im sorry but I find this very offensive. There is a whole creaction myth based on diana and lucifer. what makes leland questionable. If he was making it all up of things he knew, he was before his time in understanding it. strega pre dates leland.

[HolographicJoe]

Im sorry but I find this very offensive. There is a whole creaction myth based on diana and lucifer. what makes leland questionable. If he was making it all up of things he knew, he was before his time in understanding it. strega pre dates leland.


Lucifer was an Etruscan god appropriated by the Romans.

Not that that's really important, but I'm always willing to toos in my 1.5 cents. :apirate:

[teishabee]

the name lucifer is questionable. Its meaning 'of light' may just be the contrast with diana being who is of darkness.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Im sorry but I find this very offensive. There is a whole creaction myth based on diana and lucifer. what makes leland questionable. If he was making it all up of things he knew, he was before his time in understanding it. strega pre dates leland.


Strega was one of the few that survived throughout the centuries.
http://www.fabrisia.com/history.htm

D

[DebLipp]

Well, since I'm almost positive that he's referenced it in his work, but regardless there is still a lot of controversy over it still. I dunno....considering I can't find any reference to Aradia in any other book on mythology other than Leland's book and I think Grimassi's work, even when looking at Etruscan stuff, I feel like it's kinda shady.

But, of course I could be wrong.

You can't find references to "Aradia" but you can find references to "Herodia" and the evidnece is that they're the same. The evidence, in fact, is that Leland's informant Magdalena WAS real, although what SHE made up is hard to say. But Herodia is real and is corroborated a lot of places, in Eliade for one and Ginzburg for another.

[lightdragon]

You can't find references to "Aradia" but you can find references to "Herodia" and the evidnece is that they're the same. The evidence, in fact, is that Leland's informant Magdalena WAS real, although what SHE made up is hard to say. But Herodia is real and is corroborated a lot of places, in Eliade for one and Ginzburg for another.
Thanks for the info. If i knew you had info on this i would have asked you. Usually anything with Aradia or Diana comes to mind ,Raven Grimassi comes to mind.
Anyhow you are a lot prettier than he is.

[Erebus]

Strawberry Blonde already mentioned this in passing, but as far as I'm aware there are two distinct branches of Dianic Paganism. The Old Dianic branch is centered on the feminine aspect of the divine, but lacks much of the anti-male sentiment. New Dianic, started by (among others) the writings of Z. Budapest, has the female-only covens with a definite anti-male (as opposed to just deemphasizing the masculine) slant.

Oh, and Obsidian:
Normally, I'm right up there with you, but in this case I have to stick up for Strawberry. I get enough "Why call it Satanism if you don't worship Satan?" that I have real sympathy for anyone else in a similarly-poorly-named tradition that doesn't actually worship the root word the tradition takes its appellation from.

"Dianic" as a name was chosen because Diana, to lots of people, represents the ultimate female - not necessarily because they actually worship THE Diana. Just like "Satanism" as a name was chosen because Satan represents the ultimate in pride and worship of the self - not because any of us actually revere the Bad Guy from the Bible.

Ain't our fault we didn't get to the meeting where the name of our faith got chosen. :whatgives

[Erebus]

One more thing:


I don't belong to any coven, but if a coven is focusing on Women mysteries, why would a man want to be there?

Dude(ette)! I want to know Women mysteries! Do you have any idea how much smoother that would make my relationship? :D

[Strawberry Bounce]

Strawberry Blonde Who's that? http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies/love.gif


One more thing:


Dude(ette)! I want to know Women mysteries! Do you have any idea how much smoother that would make my relationship? http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies/love2.gif LOL

[Erebus]

Who's that? http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies/love.gif

Hush, you. It's been a long day.

[Strawberry Bounce]

That actually dosn't sound too bad.http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/yay.gif

[lightdragon]

That actually dosn't sound too bad.http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/yay.gif
:falloffch :collapse: :fpartyman :spinner: :crazyman:

[Strawberry Bounce]

http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/chairfall.gif http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/faintthud.gif http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/party13.gif http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/propeller2.gif http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/loco.gifWhat's wrong with Strawberry Blonde? It could work if I was a blonde!

http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/nixweiss.gif

[lightdragon]

What's wrong with Strawberry Blonde? It could work if I was a blonde!

http://mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/nixweiss.gif
Nothing i was just laughing at the recent posts. i thought it was amusing. Anyway when i thought of your name Strawberry Bounce i usually think of Bounce Knowles(spelling)

[ObsidianShenKa]

Normally, I'm right up there with you, but in this case I have to stick up for Strawberry. I get enough "Why call it Satanism if you don't worship Satan?" that I have real sympathy for anyone else in a similarly-poorly-named tradition that doesn't actually worship the root word the tradition takes its appellation from.Point conceded.

I stand corrected.

Still. :grrrrr: @ dianics

[ObsidianShenKa]

...that's not Bounce.

That's Beyoncé. Shoot her too. *snicker*

...Strawberry Bounce would sure make my laundry smell good.

[raven grimassi]

Ok, I don't know if anyone pointed this out in the thread already but the idea of Diana, Lucifer and Aradia is NOT mythologically based. The story that refers to is "The Gospel of Aradia" which as far as I am concerned is a fictional account written by Charles Leland.

To be fair to Leland, I'd point out that he didn't actually write the Aradia material. He reportedly received it as a manuscript from Maddalena, his so-called "Witch informant." Leland's earlier works on Italian Witchcraft present the Witch in a good light, and he refers to them as "the beautiful witches of Benevento" and the "good witches of Benevento." He even goes out of his way to point out that there is no devil figure in Italian Witchcraft. So, the portrayal of witches in the Aradia material is quite different from his earlier writings (and one can therefore assume that so too are his actual beliefs about witches).

Best regards - Raven

[raven grimassi]

Well, since I'm almost positive that he's referenced it in his work, but regardless there is still a lot of controversy over it still. I dunno....considering I can't find any reference to Aradia in any other book on mythology other than Leland's book and I think Grimassi's work, even when looking at Etruscan stuff, I feel like it's kinda shady.

I'm curious, do you mean "shady" as in obscured in the shadows, or by your comment do you mean something poorly pertaining to a person's character?

Best regards - Raven

[raven grimassi]

You can't find references to "Aradia" but you can find references to "Herodia" and the evidnece is that they're the same. The evidence, in fact, is that Leland's informant Magdalena WAS real, although what SHE made up is hard to say. But Herodia is real and is corroborated a lot of places, in Eliade for one and Ginzburg for another.

I would respectfully disagree that Aradia and Herodia are the same, in the same way I would disagree that Lucifer and Satan are the same. In my opinion both are very complex intentionally contrived attempts to equate one with the other. Both have long served the Christian agenda of misinformation about our deities, beliefs, and practices.

Best regards - Raven

[DebLipp]

I would respectfully disagree that Aradia and Herodia are the same, in the same way I would disagree that Lucifer and Satan are the same. In my opinion both are very complex intentionally contrived attempts to equate one with the other. Both have long served the Christian agenda of misinformation about our deities, beliefs, and practices.

Best regards - Raven

I see no evidence of contrivance in seeing the connection between Herodias and Aradia. The connections are based on clear linguistic evidence as well as a long series of mythic similarities, and are supported by a large number of extremely respected scholars. The two (among so many) whom I cited, Mircea Eliade and Carlo Ginzburg, do not have a reputation for serving a "Christian agenda of misinformation." That's a pretty hefty accusation to throw at a respected scholar without offering evidence.

[ObsidianShenKa]

And, I really don't think the Christians are contriving to misinform Pagans by confusing Herodias and Aradia, when they're virtually the same.

It's not a Satan-Lucifer complex. More like Zeus/Jupiter. Or actually, more like English/American.

[DarkOrion]

Dianics in general irk me as I am male. I've never met one that just 'chose not to actively worship' the male perspective. I tend to meet the types that have a reactive feeling of female superiority...bred by the historical nonsense of male superiority. Two wrongs don't make a right, and when the kind of Dianic i'm used to reincarnates... maybe they will open their minds to humanity being one race not two seperate species :smash:

[Lunacie]

Dianics in general irk me as I am male. I've never met one that just 'chose not to actively worship' the male perspective. I tend to meet the types that have a reactive feeling of female superiority...bred by the historical nonsense of male superiority. Two wrongs don't make a right, and when the kind of Dianic i'm used to reincarnates... maybe they will open their minds to humanity being one race not two seperate species :smash:
"...historical nonsense of male superiority"?

I agree that it's nonsense that either gender is superior to the other. But as someone who grew up in a home and a time where men believed in that I can very easily understand how some women reacted by taking the ball and running as far as they could in the other direction. I don't see that as being "wrong", it's just a human reaction, neh?

[raven grimassi]

I see no evidence of contrivance in seeing the connection between Herodias and Aradia. The connections are based on clear linguistic evidence as well as a long series of mythic similarities, and are supported by a large number of extremely respected scholars. The two (among so many) whom I cited, Mircea Eliade and Carlo Ginzburg, do not have a reputation for serving a "Christian agenda of misinformation." That's a pretty hefty accusation to throw at a respected scholar without offering evidence.

You appear to have misunderstood me. No disrespect to any scholar was stated by me nor intended. My point was aimed at the Church's agenda, not the agenda of any scholar. Historians deal with what arises and what gets passed along in various cultures. I don't hold them accountable for not being able to distinguish facts from the inherited well-formed distortions that intentionally appear as fact.

Best regards - Raven

[Enarienne]

From my point of view, the character of Satan was created by the Church. The Church included aspects of "Satan" that were also common in Lucifer, and added others, then claimed that they were one and the same, that Lucifer was a horrible demon, going to bring everybody to hell, blah blah blah. It would make more since if the Church had given Satan the name of Noctifer rather than Lucifer if this Satan is so dark. Luci-light! fer-carry! The reasoning behind Lucifer not being an evil Satan is rather logical in my opinion. In Christian point of view, Satan and Lucifer are the same. In most Pagan points of view, Lucifer and Satan are most definitely NOT the same. That is just my opinion, though. I do not mean to intend anybody on here who feels otherwise. Blessed be.
--Enarienne

[teishabee]

Im glad someone resurrected this post.

I was thinking the other day about gender issues. A man might want to learn the women mysteries if he felt he was wrongly in the body of a male.:whatmewor

[raven grimassi]

I see no evidence of contrivance in seeing the connection between Herodias and Aradia. The connections are based on clear linguistic evidence as well as a long series of mythic similarities, and are supported by a large number of extremely respected scholars. The two (among so many) whom I cited, Mircea Eliade and Carlo Ginzburg, do not have a reputation for serving a "Christian agenda of misinformation." That's a pretty hefty accusation to throw at a respected scholar without offering evidence.

First, allow me to preface by saying that my personal Tradition includes Aradia as a venerated figure (as well as Diana). So naturally I find it offensive when academics compare a biblical character like Herodias from the Middle East region, with the Aradia figure of Italian Witchcraft.

As to the Christian agenda, even Ginzburg points out several key factors in his chapter 'Following the Goddess" (Ecstasies). Ginzburg mentions that Burchard, Bishop of Worms, added Herodias to the name of Diana (when referring to the earlier Canon episcopi about Diana and her night followers).

Ginzburg points out that in 1390 Friar Beltramino “inserted” a reference to Herodias that did not appear in the trial records concerning a woman named “Sibillia”

Ginzburg states that the women on trial “only speak of ‘Madona Horiente’; her identification with Diana had probably been suggested to Sibillia by the first inquisitor…”

Ginzburg points out that “…the old hypothesis which explained the presence of ‘Herodiana’ (later normalized to read Herodias) among the synonyms of the nocturnal goddess, as a misreading of ‘Hera Diana’

He also mentions that the Council of Truer in 1310 “set Herodiana along side Diana”

Ginzburg goes on to point out that Vincent of Beauvais added text not originally contained in the Canon episcopi. Also, Dominican preacher Johannes Herolt added the name Unholde, and later editions of his Sermones added Fraw Berthe and Fraw Helt, displacing Unholde. This points to intentional shifts, and for what purpose?

To me, this all smacks of intentional modifications to equate Diana/Aradia of the Pagans/Witches with other characters, including the unsavory Herodias. And again, it is not the scholars, it is the Church.

Best regards - Raven

[redlady]

With a conscious of the possibility of cultural appropriation, Dianics celebrate the Goddess in all her forms. The presence of the Goddess in all cultures unites all women.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily.....I can never understand women, or men for that matter, who think all women have some big "sisterhood" thing going. I can think of few things personally more repugnant then opening a circle(no pun intended) by lying in a naked leg overlapping daisy chain with a bunch of vagina obessed militant nipple Nazis followed by a "look at me, I'm the Sheela-na -gig"competition .....but that's just me. Not that ALL Dianics are like, that I'm sure,just ALL the ones I've met are like that, then they get all up in your face(again,no pun intended) when they find out you're not into that bag, like somehow you're less female than they are! Live and let live..jeez....... :grrrrr: :rant: