America vs. the UK traditions

[grnpuffer]

Hi folks
I'm on a discussion list out of the UK. And as one of the weeds on the list from America, I find myself in 'us vs them' discussions a bit. I posted the following recently. Do any of you have anything more to add?


As far as the UK vs American pagan/wiccan experience -
Janet and Stewart Farrar {authors of The Witchs' Bible) used to come to the states fairy regularly. They usually hit the pagan festival circuit across the continent (like heartstone -a camping festival w/ about 1500 unwashed participants). They loved Colorado and had plans to move here before Stewart got sick. Their impression of the differences basically boiled down to:
*The pagan community is more open and visible in the States. Resources are easily accessible (tho in the east coast and southeast, groups tend to be very private and secretive)
*Americans are more willing to embrace creativity in ritual- especially sacred dance and song. Also, ritual drama is more commonly used here than in the UK. They found great examples of experiments with a range of traditions (in addition to European trads)- most notedly components from the various native american, african-based, and mesoAmerican tradition. There are also some surprising elements emerging- sacred dance, diety worship and ritual from the middle east, Tibet, India and others.
*On the down side Americans are not yet rooted to the earth in the way that the people in the UK/Europe are. [hey! we only have a couple hundred years of history!!]. We don't have sacred stories of our own linking us to our own sacred sites. Our sacred stories are re-enactments of your sacred stories. According to Janet, this is a great problem for Americans to understand and access real earth power.

[To add to the list, it's my impression that there are greater attempts to blend wicca with major traditions in america- Taoist alchemy, christian mysticism, buddhsim, sufisim, Hindism, et al. Who knows how these particular experiments will eventually evolve but they're quite interesting.]

Not all of our UK visitors were as enthusiastic about their American experience as the Farrars. One cursed in exasperation about the "bloody pagan parade" here. He thinks that Americans are clueless, self involed and arrogant about their stupidity (I wouldn't argue there....). He thinks that American (esoteric) lodges fail to initiate their members because they don't know what a real initiation is. And yet he keeps coming back year... after year... after year... I guess we've become pretty decent cash cows for him. Woof

[Pan]

I dont' see why we have to have an "us v. them" mentality at all. Either way around.

Like the quote in my signature... "The world would be such a nicer place if people thought of it as one big community instead of a bunch of neighbourhoods."

[Chibi-Fallon]

I don't see it as us verse them. I see it as things are different over there.
In Japan it's rude to sneeze in public. I personally would want to know that before going over there to avoid sneezing in public.

[DianaStormDancer]

I dont' see why we have to have an "us v. them" mentality at all. Either way around.

Like the quote in my signature... "The world would be such a nicer place if people thought of it as one big community instead of a bunch of neighbourhoods."Kudos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Well said and well met!:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:....oh and just an after thought...the "them" that think Americans have no ancient traditions..........should remember the original people of this land.....you remember them dont ya??????? "The People" highy and deepy rooted in The Mother.....come on ya remember them,,,,,the ones who lived here in a symbionic union with the Earth Mother and Sky Father......the ones who peopled this land before all the "Thems" came and took it from them...................................:hmmmmm:

[Sibylle]

I don't see what's wrong with lots of different "neighbourhoods", as long as it doesn't turn into a "versus". I love diversity, and I don't feel the need to be the same everywhere - on the contrary, that would be a loss of variety. Why don't we all acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses, and choose to learn from the others?

I think all this boils down to how you perceive variety. If you take the judgement out of difference, it's not good or bad anymore, it's just, well, different.

Hugs!!

[mothwench]

I don't see what's wrong with lots of different "neighbourhoods", as long as it doesn't turn into a "versus". I love diversity, and I don't feel the need to be the same everywhere - on the contrary, that would be a loss of variety. Why don't we all acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses, and choose to learn from the others?
ditto. well said. i would send the clapping smiley, but i think we've had enough of those. diana wossname, i would have loved to read your post, but fear of epileptic seizures prevents me. :lol:


I think all this boils down to how you perceive variety. If you take the judgement out of difference, it's not good or bad anymore, it's just, well, different.

Hugs!!
even better said. i want to post it to the random quotes machine. may i?

grnpuffer, what you say about paganism being more open and visible in the US may have something to do with the fact that they have so much more room and space to be open in. things tend to get a little cramped up in the UK, so everyone has to get along, or things get uncomfortable. this might be the reason other nationalities sometimes view us as uptight, secretive, etc.
just my opinion. :elf:

[mothwench]

some more thoughts on this:

*Americans are more willing to embrace creativity in ritual- especially sacred dance and song. Also, ritual drama is more commonly used here than in the UK. They found great examples of experiments with a range of traditions (in addition to European trads)- most notedly components from the various native american, african-based, and mesoAmerican tradition. There are also some surprising elements emerging- sacred dance, diety worship and ritual from the middle east, Tibet, India and others.
i think it's cause americans have a much stronger inclination towards drama, ooomph and glitter. i think it's cool, though, and envy them for the fact that they can get away with it so easily. i think they have a much easier time of things, they don't think about what they will look like to others when they don the robes and all that dazzly stuff. :kooky:

*On the down side Americans are not yet rooted to the earth in the way that the people in the UK/Europe are. [hey! we only have a couple hundred years of history!!]. We don't have sacred stories of our own linking us to our own sacred sites. Our sacred stories are re-enactments of your sacred stories. According to Janet, this is a great problem for Americans to understand and access real earth power.
this i didn't agree with, at first, but on reflection, yeah, you could have a point. but surely this can only apply to those who are into paths such as druidism or asatru. there are so many ways to connect to the earth (animism, shamanism, wicca, etc.) that have little or nothing to do with sacred sites of europe, and on that note, wouldn't christians in america be facing the same problems?

then another point i would like to make is, that the sacred sites of europe are strewn around the place and that we, too, have to travel to get there. i've seen stonehenge once in my entire life, and i'm ashamed to say i have not been to one single germanic site yet. i just haven't managed to find the time to do so yet.
flocking to stone circles every weekend or visiting the externsteine every single chance you get does not a happy pagan make. :)
edited to add: i feel just as awestruck just simply walking through the woods, and there are plenty of those in the states, i know so. :graduate:

[Shanti]

I always found the effengee mounds here in the midwest to be very sacred and the native people do too!!

[Bec_W]

I don't see what's wrong with lots of different "neighbourhoods", as long as it doesn't turn into a "versus". I love diversity, and I don't feel the need to be the same everywhere - on the contrary, that would be a loss of variety. Why don't we all acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses, and choose to learn from the others?


Exactly, there's nothing wrong with being different, it's just a matter of how we approach those different from ourselves. Not only would it be a loss of variety but also a loss of knowledge.

[grnpuffer]

grnpuffer, what you say about paganism being more open and visible in the US may have something to do with the fact that they have so much more room and space to be open in. things tend to get a little cramped up in the UK, so everyone has to get along, or things get uncomfortable. this might be the reason other nationalities sometimes view us as uptight, secretive, etc.
just my opinion. :elf:

Nope- referring to an attitude. Open in the sense that pagans may have an information booth at a community peoples fair, or they may have a float in a parade. Maybe there's a ritual in the city park with hundreds and people from the community are welcome to join in. Pagans openly identify themselves as witches/wiccans/pagans when they are running for public office. They are willing to write to the editor of the local newspaper to point out issues specific to the pagan identity, etc.

[grnpuffer]

this i didn't agree with, at first, but on reflection, yeah, you could have a point. but surely this can only apply to those who are into paths such as druidism or asatru. there are so many ways to connect to the earth (animism, shamanism, wicca, etc.) that have little or nothing to do with sacred sites of europe, and on that note, wouldn't christians in america be facing the same problems?

then another point i would like to make is, that the sacred sites of europe are strewn around the place and that we, too, have to travel to get there. i've seen stonehenge once in my entire life, and i'm ashamed to say i have not been to one single germanic site yet. i just haven't managed to find the time to do so yet.

I don't think Janet was referring necessarily to places like stonehenge....
As much as the group mind/culture/identity with history and the role that the land plays in that history is very powerful in places where a people have been for thousands of years.

For example, the notion of kingship is a fantastically powerful symbol to the subconscious/group mind to the folks in britain.... the response to the death of princess diana was legendary- a huge visceral response- because it activated an archetype in the group mind. In america, we don't have that kind of psychological connection to the idea of royalty- go figure, we call movie stars america's royalty. To use images of king-arthurs round table as a rubric for spiritual growth may be a curiosity or may be nostalgic, but it doesn't have the same power as it would for a somebody who lived for generations in an area where that symbol was and continues to be sacred. We don't have ideas/landmarks/objects that we've identified as sacred for 100s.....1,000.....10,000 years. And as anybody who practices magic knows, the longer the intent is maintained, the more powerful it becomes.

As far as christians in america.... the christian tradition doesn't integrate the idea of sacred earth or ancestral land into it's philosophy in the same way that it does for the jewish tradition. And look how powerful that connection is for the jewish people! To the jewish people, the fulfillment of the covenant with god is directly tied to going home to the land of their ancestors.... even if it means war.

I think the statement that "Americans are re-enacting Europe's sacred ceremonies, and failing to discover their own" was an interesting one. This is not to say that people don't have the right and responsibility to discover the traditions of their ancestors... that's another source of power. However, if paganism is the connection of the land with it's people, how are we progressing?

[Pan]

I don't see what's wrong with lots of different "neighbourhoods", as long as it doesn't turn into a "versus". I love diversity, and I don't feel the need to be the same everywhere - on the contrary, that would be a loss of variety. Why don't we all acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses, and choose to learn from the others?

I think all this boils down to how you perceive variety. If you take the judgement out of difference, it's not good or bad anymore, it's just, well, different.

Hugs!!

A single neighborhood can have as much diversity as a whole country. Only, -generally-, a single neighborhood as a more close-knit system. That's what I was getting at. Not making it all "cut and paste" the same, cast from the same mold and all that garbage.

But I digress. This thread wasn't about that.

[mothwench]

sorry for not replying for so long, i've been feeling fluey and didn't want to spam up your thread with incoherent nonsense. it's a good thread. :smile:

I don't think Janet was referring necessarily to places like stonehenge....
As much as the group mind/culture/identity with history and the role that the land plays in that history is very powerful in places where a people have been for thousands of years.
again, i'd have to say it depends on the individual's path. for example, i wonder about all those "blut und boden" heathens who live in the states... i don't get it at all, if they were consequent in their actions they'd move back to the homelands, ne? most don't even speak the language of their so-revered ancestors. and how to practise druidry over in the states is beyond me as well. but then, every modern druid's conception of what druidism is all about is different, so i guess they find their own way.
i tend to see the continents as landscape rather than countries and boundaries, and though i see there are different cultures, they too, are part of the landscape... they are not citizens, to me.


For example, the notion of kingship is a fantastically powerful symbol to the subconscious/group mind to the folks in britain.... the response to the death of princess diana was legendary- a huge visceral response- because it activated an archetype in the group mind. In america, we don't have that kind of psychological connection to the idea of royalty- go figure, we call movie stars america's royalty. To use images of king-arthurs round table as a rubric for spiritual growth may be a curiosity or may be nostalgic, but it doesn't have the same power as it would for a somebody who lived for generations in an area where that symbol was and continues to be sacred. We don't have ideas/landmarks/objects that we've identified as sacred for 100s.....1,000.....10,000 years. And as anybody who practices magic knows, the longer the intent is maintained, the more powerful it becomes.
the notion of kingship... i doubt that even among anglo-saxon recons there are many royalists to be found, but maybe that's just my own political ideals speaking. i really have no idea. raises an interesting point, i'll try and find out more about this.



As far as christians in america.... the christian tradition doesn't integrate the idea of sacred earth or ancestral land into it's philosophy in the same way that it does for the jewish tradition. And look how powerful that connection is for the jewish people! To the jewish people, the fulfillment of the covenant with god is directly tied to going home to the land of their ancestors.... even if it means war.
yeah, that is true, i guess.


I think the statement that "Americans are re-enacting Europe's sacred ceremonies, and failing to discover their own" was an interesting one. This is not to say that people don't have the right and responsibility to discover the traditions of their ancestors... that's another source of power. However, if paganism is the connection of the land with it's people, how are we progressing?
well, saying something like "paganism is the connection of the land with it's people" is way too much of a generalisation. while it's part of my path, and maybe yours, it isn't what every pagan is about.
but for the sake of the argument, here's assuming you mean only the pagans that are basing their spirituality on european traditions, then i guess i should imagine what i would do with my beliefs if i were living in the states... i would incorporate animism, and learn stuff about the native american beliefs, which of course some native americans would disapprove of... i can see your point, they do have a hard time of it, huh.

[Seren_]

For example, the notion of kingship is a fantastically powerful symbol to the subconscious/group mind to the folks in britain.... the response to the death of princess diana was legendary- a huge visceral response- because it activated an archetype in the group mind.

I'm sorry, but I can only see the response to Di's death as being media induced mass hysteria. Nobody cared she was a former royal; just that she died in a terrible way in the middle of pointless media hype because her face sold newspapers and magazines - and that she'd been hard done by, by the royals. And she was a tragic figure anyway, who met a tragic end.

Most people in Britain don't care much for the royal family, mainly because they sponge off our taxes and don't do much else except cut ribbons at open days and kill foxes for no reason (sorry...pursue noble sports).

I don't see the modern royal family as having anything to do with the notion of kingship or running our country. Apparently we live in a democracy, according to Tony Blair.

*Ahem* Sorry, /rant


Hi folks
I'm on a discussion list out of the UK. And as one of the weeds on the list from America, I find myself in 'us vs them' discussions a bit. I posted the following recently. Do any of you have anything more to add?

I do see what you're saying here though. The UK approach to ritual does tend to be a bit more "stuffy", I guess you could say, but things are slowly changing. But not everyone over here does, or ever will, appreciate the "bigger and better" attitude that America is perceived to have (rightly or wrongly).

Especially in the political climate today, a lot of Brits (maybe Europeans in general) are shying away from any kind of "American" attitude, which creates a certain kind of snobbery I suppose. And snobbery is also a problem that a minority of British pagans have always had, seeing themselves as "the original and best" what with our history and everything; those Americans take what we have and twist it beyond recognition, the snobs might say.

Britain on the whole tends to be a lot more conservative. And I suppose it's ironic that one of those people I heard say such a thing had an American as a High Priestess...In this sense, yes, I do see a certain "us and them" attitude, but often it depends on the specific tradition that person belongs to, and I think it does go both ways sometimes. It's generally based on ignorance, IMHO.

If anything, especially with the books available now being predominantly American in origin, Britain is beginning to look to America as a kind of authority, in some quarters at least. The few British authors are getting a lot more commercially oriented, for example, as they have to be to make any money.

[BlackHoodedCrow]

Sorry, I see this as ignorance on the European part. They seem to think that Americans just cropped up here 200 years ago and started living. We have roots that go deep there just not here but they are in us as stories, They are told to us by family members about how are ancestors (where ever they were from) lived. We are very in tuned with the Earth. Sorry again that was plain ignorant!!!


December-First generation American in her family....and Proud!

[grnpuffer]

I'm sorry, but I can only see the response to Di's death as being media induced mass hysteria

Sorry... just a personal interepretation of UK commentaries that showed up on the BBC on this end... about the overwhelming and unexpected response...mountains of flowers and teddybears. A response that quickly fizzled out and wasn't repeated the following year. I thought the process was interesting- as if an archetype was activated but failed to have power once it ran it's course (but then you're probably correct, it was a media ratings game rather than something deeper).



I do see what you're saying here though. The UK approach to ritual does tend to be a bit more "stuffy", I guess you could say, but things are slowly changing. But not everyone over here does, or ever will, appreciate the "bigger and better" attitude that America is perceived to have (rightly or wrongly).

I don't think that when people put together big productions in public ritual here, they're necessarily consciously thinking "bigger and better' (relative to whom or what??). Rather, it seems That americans look to identify the spiritual process with the external world, rather than the transformation of interior experience.

The transpersonal psychologists all write about group (e.g., racial, etc) or tribal identity (historical tradition) as the first entry point in the experience of interior power and transformation. That identity is very strong in my UK pagan/wiccan friends (you say stuffy, I say committed to tradition). On the other hand, in america, we're a melting pot and a recent culture (and most folks here don't identify with the history of this country, such that it is), I just couldn't visualize how that process works here. Double the sense of puzzlement when thinking about neopaganism/wicca as spiritual development systems because they are distinguished by the degree that they are non-dogmatic, decentralized, non-traditional.

?Could it be that neopaganism has a unique (and maybe historical) lesson to teach these overstuffed transpersonal psychologists about spiritual growth?

[banondraig]

bump

[Lolair]

Better to be compared and mentioned than completely ignored like us *sniffle* Canadians *sniffle*. Do "famous" pagan authors even come to Canada? I think the odd one goes to Toronto, but really, Toronto might as well be part of the States (I lived there so I know).

There's a big difference between American and Canadian festivals (I've been to both), as I am sure there is a difference between Canadian and American ones with UK festivals. Some of those differences are scary, and others are just different - who gives a hoot? There's all different kinds and levels of pagans in every country - it just tends to be the crazies that get out in public in North America :tongueout

[Tanya]

well, we americans are muts, and i'm not surprized to think our practice refelcts that, nor do I think their is anything wrong with it. As a 'mostly European' my practice is based on a European model, but I'm willing to embrace other traditons that fit and enrich.

A religion that doesn't evolve becomes atrified and disconnected with the people....the challenge is to preseve the wisedom while keeping relevant,.. this is the challange to all cultures...and i think that's what American traditions are attempting at their best.

I agree at their worst they are a mishmash of half researched crap and intellectual laziness.

[Garm]

Better to be compared and mentioned than completely ignored like us *sniffle* Canadians *sniffle*. Do "famous" pagan authors even come to Canada? I think the odd one goes to Toronto, but really, Toronto might as well be part of the States (I lived there so I know).




Toronto as a city carries out the idea of Canada as a country. It is a calculated crime both against the aspirations o the soul and the affections of the heart. I had been fed vilely on the train. I thought I would treat myself to a really first-class dinner. But all I could get was high-tea --- they had never heard the name of wine! Of all the loveless, lifeless lands that writhe beneath the wrath of God, commend me to Canada!

----The Confessions of Aleister Crowley

[David19]

I'm sorry, but I can only see the response to Di's death as being media induced mass hysteria. Nobody cared she was a former royal; just that she died in a terrible way in the middle of pointless media hype because her face sold newspapers and magazines - and that she'd been hard done by, by the royals. And she was a tragic figure anyway, who met a tragic end.

Most people in Britain don't care much for the royal family, mainly because they sponge off our taxes and don't do much else except cut ribbons at open days and kill foxes for no reason (sorry...pursue noble sports).

I agree with you :).

[HedwigHarfang]

As a Briton myself, I find working with spirit here a lot less open but a lot more focussed on mundane matters. As a politician I have for a long time sought to explore politics through the lens of "witchcraft" or working with spirit, and this year was fascinated to discover that my soul-mate was actually a politician of high national standing, though not currently an international celebrity. At least over here, people connected with any "old religion" or spiritual development seem to be more conservative (if not actually Tory) and it is the left that is more sceptical or bound by "Piscean" mentalities such as the Enlightenment's antipathy to the existence of God, Goddess, or a Divine of some form that takes an active interest in Its creation. The Christian era, Jesus' actual divinity more or less left up to the individual believer, has been marked by a rapid development in socio-political and technological advances, compared to prior millennia, and this seems to me to run concurrent with the Age of Pisces.

At the moment there is a renaissance over here in spiritual awareness, coupled with a very hardline scepticism that, for example in the field of psychiatry and psychoanalysis, has kept any attempts to switch society on to spirit, psi and spirit-work in check. At the same time my soul-mate explains that politics is globally a field where those involved have to understand the workings of spirit and often have to manipulate time and space in order to do their jobs properly without severe physical or mental harm. In many cases we can both see a pattern towards a political melt-down caused by social dysfunction and political crisis, however much the mass media try and keep things out of the public eye. What worries both of us is the Norse story of Ragnorok appears to prophesy the destruction of the world through civil strife rather than global climate change or geopolitical tensions. We can also see direct parallels between the characters involved and national figures, such as my soul-mate (as Odin), the former and current Prime Ministers (Tony Blair = Thor; Gordon Brown=Heimdall) and the Leader of the Opposition (David Cameron, who in private at least behaves like Loki gone mad: the similarities between an artist's impression of Loki and Mr Cameron on perhaps not a very good day are sriking:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/lestanley79//LokiFoxworth.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/lestanley79//Madvolponefox.jpg

Mr Cameron is a fox spirit come into this world for the first time as a human being. Perhaps he has scented a pack of hounds in the vicinity.).

It gives me little pleasure to suggest that the UK is the one on the brink of a catastrophe brought about perhaps by the lack of a strong spiritualist/neo-pagan movement (though the Anglican church in rural districts has begun to go more towards a nature-worship, neo-pagan angle, which made me feel more comfortable, as a confirmed Christian (my soul-mate is Jewish), about exploring psi and spirit-work) and a vast gulf between the information available to the public and the information held by those in power. The general trend towards openness and freedom of expression in the US will hopefully mitigate against, for example, the revelation that an election could be rigged (we have been lucky enough to be able to confirm through the use of the Hall of Records that both the 2000 and 2004 American elections were genuine, but no such data can yet be found for the 1997, 2001 and 2005 elections in Britain, for example) or a senior politician killed without people on the ground knowing.