Info about Christian Witchcraft Please

[Loopaleigh]

I have noticed on the MW forums that there are a number of Christian Witches and/or Christo-Pagans. I found this kind of surprising because on certain fundamental issues the two are quite different. I have a few specific questions I would like to ask about this....I am always interested to hear about others spirituality and philosophies. I know this might be a hot topic with some people....so please, I don't want it to turn into a bash fest or nasty debate. I have nothing against Christian Witches, I simply would like more information on what your beliefs are.

1) Do you believe in the concept of Original Sin and the Fall of Adam and Eve. I was raised Baptist (Southern Baptist at that) and this is a biggie for them. It is what made the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross necessary.

2) Do you believe in the concept of an Absolute Evil Entity/Force such as Satan.

3) Do you believe God is only Male.

4) Do you believe God is separate from His Creation...i.e, A Transcendant Deity.

5) In Sunday School I was taught that it was absolutly necessary to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and only through him could you obtain Salvation. Do you believe salvation is nescessary? If so, why?

6) Do you worship other Gods and/or Goddesses...if so how do you reconcile this with the Commandment " Thou shalt have no other gods before me?"

And again...looking for info...not a bunch of hate....you all are the first Christo Pagans I have ever encountered and I'm am curious.

[Pandoras]

*bump*

I wanna hear (read) this too!

[Shanti]

We do have a class on Christian witches...Aine is the teacher, you might want to check it out!!!! Its in the circle of teaching section.

[Aine of the Fae]

I have noticed on the MW forums that there are a number of Christian Witches and/or Christo-Pagans. I found this kind of surprising because on certain fundamental issues the two are quite different. I have a few specific questions I would like to ask about this....I am always interested to hear about others spirituality and philosophies. I know this might be a hot topic with some people....so please, I don't want it to turn into a bash fest or nasty debate. I have nothing against Christian Witches, I simply would like more information on what your beliefs are.
Well I'll give it a shot :D



1) Do you believe in the concept of Original Sin and the Fall of Adam and Eve. I was raised Baptist (Southern Baptist at that) and this is a biggie for them. It is what made the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross necessary.

Yes and no. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve was allegory for the gradual movement of humanity away from nature, and therefore away from their connection with the Divine. Not all people need an intermediary to re-establish that connection with the Divine, however most people do. For Christians that mediator is Christ, for others it may be another deity, or ritual, or whatever.



2) Do you believe in the concept of an Absolute Evil Entity/Force such as Satan.
No. First, Satan in the Old Testament is not evil, but is an agent of God. Hasatan, the word from which Satan is derived meant adversary, and he was an adversary of the human race, not of God. In fact, through reading the book of Job, you will find God and Satan having a very interesting, and friendly, discussion.



3) Do you believe God is only Male.
No. God is beyond gender, and to classify God as male or female limits God. I don't believe that God can be limited.



4) Do you believe God is separate from His Creation...i.e, A Transcendant Deity.
Yes and no. I believe God is Immanent and Transcendant. Again, saying God is one or the other places limits on something that I don't believe can be limited.



5) In Sunday School I was taught that it was absolutly necessary to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and only through him could you obtain Salvation. Do you believe salvation is nescessary? If so, why?
The answer to this lies in what I believe about salvation. Salvation is reunion with the Divine, with God. And so yes, I believe savation is necessary. However, I don't believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation.



6) Do you worship other Gods and/or Goddesses...if so how do you reconcile this with the Commandment " Thou shalt have no other gods before me?"
No. I worship one God, the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of All, Incarnate as Jesus the Christ. I believe that all other deities are inadequate expressions and human attempts at defining an undefinable God.



And again...looking for info...not a bunch of hate....you all are the first Christo Pagans I have ever encountered and I'm am curious.

[Loopaleigh]

We do have a class on Christian witches...Aine is the teacher, you might want to check it out!!!! Its in the circle of teaching section.

Ok...so I read through the CoT Cristo Pagan thread. Let me see if I am understanding correctly. Christo-Paganism is a revival of thought, philosophies,theology,etc., of Early Christianity...around the time Christ was thought to actualy live. Yes? No? It is an attempt at honoring a path that Jesus probably intended Christianity to become (not what it actualy turned in to.) Yes? No? You feel it has alot in common with Paganism because of the archtypical (sp?) similarities, i.e. Jesus as the Grain/Sun God and Mary as the Goddess. Am I doing ok so far?
Ok...so...what I don't understand is how you stand/feel about Modern Christian Doctrine.
I'm talking about currant day fundamentalist thinking. Do you feel they are wrong, misguided, what?
Like I said in my first post...I was raised Southern Baptist...and according to my Sunday School teachers, what you are practicing is not Christianity..it's well...(said in amusing southern drawl) A one way ticket straight to you know where. I do not mean this in a bitchy way, it's just that growing up I was told that Man was Sinful and Disobeyed God (Adam and Eve) and that Jesus Christ died on the Cross to save us from our sins and keep us out of Hell...but only if we accept him as our ONLY Lord and Saviour. Pagans do not believe in any of these things. Not the Fall of Man, not Original Sin, not the need for Salvation and not in Hell.
I realize you are talking about Christianity of 2,000 ,give or take, years ago, but what I want to know is how you feel about Christianity of today. How do you relate to other Christians about your beliefs when they are so different from what they are being told in chruch?

[Loopaleigh]

Wow, Aine, you and I just passed each other in this thread and in PM.
Thank you very much for answering my questions!
Would you say your beliefs are pretty typical of other Christo Pagans?

[Aine of the Fae]

Wow, Aine, you and I just passed each other in this thread and in PM.
Thank you very much for answering my questions!
Would you say your beliefs are pretty typical of other Christo Pagans?

My beliefs aren't typical of anyone :lol: Honestly, the only other Christo-whatevers I know are on this board :D

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok...so I read through the CoT Cristo Pagan thread. Let me see if I am understanding correctly. Christo-Paganism is a revival of thought, philosophies,theology,etc., of Early Christianity...around the time Christ was thought to actualy live. Yes? No? It is an attempt at honoring a path that Jesus probably intended Christianity to become (not what it actualy turned in to.) Yes? No? You feel it has alot in common with Paganism because of the archtypical (sp?) similarities, i.e. Jesus as the Grain/Sun God and Mary as the Goddess. Am I doing ok so far?
Ok...so...what I don't understand is how you stand/feel about Modern Christian Doctrine.
I'm talking about currant day fundamentalist thinking. Do you feel they are wrong, misguided, what?
Like I said in my first post...I was raised Southern Baptist...and according to my Sunday School teachers, what you are practicing is not Christianity..it's well...(said in amusing southern drawl) A one way ticket straight to you know where. I do not mean this in a bitchy way, it's just that growing up I was told that Man was Sinful and Disobeyed God (Adam and Eve) and that Jesus Christ died on the Cross to save us from our sins and keep us out of Hell...but only if we accept him as our ONLY Lord and Saviour. Pagans do not believe in any of these things. Not the Fall of Man, not Original Sin, not the need for Salvation and not in Hell.
I realize you are talking about Christianity of 2,000 ,give or take, years ago, but what I want to know is how you feel about Christianity of today. How do you relate to other Christians about your beliefs when they are so different from what they are being told in chruch?

I'm not trying to revive anything, and I don't consider myself Pagan, but instead consider myself Christian Witch. There is a drastic difference. There are a few Christo-Pagans here however.

Yes, it could be said that my beliefs are a synthesis of a variety of philosophical/religious systems, however Christianity is my primary influence and in the past few days is becoming even more so.

I believe that while there are archetypical similarities, Jesus was a real person, not just an archetype. I don't believe in Mary as Goddess, although I can see how some would.

I believe that fundamentalist thinking will eventually burn itself out. The literalist view of the Bible cannot hold up to criticism and the modern fundamentalist movement was a blatant reaction to Darwin's theory of evolution. Now I don't necessarily believe in evolution, at least not by itself, however I do not believe the Biblical accounts of creation to be entirely accurate. I'm and old-Earth, theistic-evolutionist.

I could counter the argument that "Pagans don't believe..." by saying "I'm not Pagan..." but I do understand what you're saying. However, it comes down to words. Does one group have the exclusive right to the word Christian? If so, which group is that? Which of the thousands of denominations is it that has the sole right to call themselves Christians? There are such varied beliefs between Christian churches that it really is impossible to say that.

I'm not practicing the Christianity of 2000 years ago. I'm practicing a Christianity of NOW. Of me, here, living, walking, talking and breathing my faith.

My beliefs are not all that different from some of the more liberal Christians, such as Matthew Fox, a former Catholic Priest, and Bishop Spong, and Episcopalian. I just happen to use the word witch to describe certain practices that I do, that many other Christians do as well.

I pray, I sing, I dance. And to me that is magic. I do magic, so I am a witch.

[Loopaleigh]

I really like what you said about which Christian Tradition has the sole right to call themselves Christians. Sometimes the fundamentalist scream so loud they drown everybody else out. Not to mention stir up alot of bad feelings. So....where does Eris fit in? I have all three pubs. of PD by the way. My favorite part is the Five Orders of Discordia ("Them"). Thanks again for answering my questions!

[Aine of the Fae]

I really like what you said about which Christian Tradition has the sole right to call themselves Christians. Sometimes the fundamentalist scream so loud they drown everybody else out. Not to mention stir up alot of bad feelings. So....where does Eris fit in? I have all three pubs. of PD by the way. My favorite part is the Five Orders of Discordia ("Them"). Thanks again for answering my questions!

Eris is Jesus' lover don't ya know? :lol: Actually, Discordianism has been a big influence on my path, reminding me not to take myself too seriously at times. I'm got a hard copy of the latest Principia :D

[Morr]

No. I worship one God, the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of All, Incarnate as Jesus the Christ. I believe that all other deities are inadequate expressions and human attempts at defining an undefinable God.

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE...
"inadequate expressions & human attempts at defining an undefinable God"???

excuse me VERY much, my Gods are VERY real, much more real then YOUR God. You dont see me going off on how that God was made up in the Council of Nicea and that untill 325ad that Trinity Concept didnt even exist. Also, being a follower of Jesus you should be very aware of the fac that Jesus never spoke about this kind of concept, nor was aware of such an idea. He followed the Jewish God - Y-H-V-H who is one - no 3 personalities or aspects, etc.

And oh yeah, I thought you were working with Eris as well.
So Jesus can have a lover in the form of a Chaos Goddess named Eris, yet the rest of the Gods that are not YOUR ONE GOD in the Trinity Forms - Are "inadequate expressions & human attempts"?

Maybe YOUR One God & his Trinity are inadequate expressions & human attempts of a power hungry fathers of the early Catholic church - to gain autonomy on Divine, and gain material power & grasp on simple people.

[Aine of the Fae]

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE...
"inadequate expressions & human attempts at defining an undefinable God"???

excuse me VERY much, my Gods are VERY real, much more real then YOUR God. You dont see me going off on how that God was made up in the Council of Nicea and that untill 325ad that Trinity Concept didnt even exist. Also, being a follower of Jesus you should be very aware of the fac that Jesus never spoke about this kind of concept, nor was aware of such an idea. He followed the Jewish God - Y-H-V-H who is one - no 3 personalities or aspects, etc.

And oh yeah, I thought you were working with Eris as well.
So Jesus can have a lover in the form of a Chaos Goddess named Eris, yet the rest of the Gods that are not YOUR ONE GOD in the Trinity Forms - Are "inadequate expressions & human attempts"?

Maybe YOUR One God & his Trinity are inadequate expressions & human attempts of a power hungry fathers of the early Catholic church - to gain autonomy on Divine, and gain material power & grasp on simple people.

Slow down!!! That's my opinion, something I'm entitled to you know. I didn't say I was right. And I didn't say everyone else is wrong, that's just what I believe based on personal study and experience.

And I'm not literally working with Eris. The whole Jesus/Eris thing is a joke. Discordianism is "a joke disguised as religion, or a religion disguised as a joke..." it's not meant to be taken seriously, it's meant to show that the Divine can be found in ANY form.

Yeah, the Trinity probably is and inadequate expression of the Divine. But it is the one I am most comfortable with at the moment.

[Morr]

Slow down!!! That's my opinion, something I'm entitled to you know. I didn't say I was right. And I didn't say everyone else is wrong, that's just what I believe based on personal study and experience.

And I'm not literally working with Eris. The whole Jesus/Eris thing is a joke. Discordianism is "a joke disguised as religion, or a religion disguised as a joke..." it's not meant to be taken seriously, it's meant to show that the Divine can be found in ANY form.

Yeah, the Trinity probably is and inadequate expression of the Divine. But it is the one I am most comfortable with at the moment.


that can be your opinion, but its also like saying - "my god is the right god, your god is the wrong god".
and if youre making a statement like that, on a Pagan forum - dont be surprised if someone attacks you. i love ya, but i had to respond because that statement pissed me off.
i worship the Irish Gods, but I acknowlege the rest of the Gods out there (including your God), and NEVER would I say that any of them are human inventions or inadequate.

[Aine of the Fae]

that can be your opinion, but its also like saying - "my god is the right god, your god is the wrong god".
and if youre making a statement like that, on a Pagan forum - dont be surprised if someone attacks you. i love ya, but i had to respond because that statement pissed me off.
i worship the Irish Gods, but I acknowlege the rest of the Gods out there (including your God), and NEVER would I say that any of them are human inventions or inadequate.

My spirituality is evolving, again. :lol: Still Christian, moving toward Liberal Christian a la Spong... Anyway.... I don't believe that all the other gods exist as seperate entities, but that is just my belief, from very real, physical experience. I could be very, very wrong, or I could be right. I don't know. But my beliefs, and my faith, are all that I have. Yes, I do believe that all the other gods were invented by people. Does that mean they are any less valid to the people who worship them? No, it doesn't. It just means that is what I believe, and I am allowed to express my beliefs whether others agree with them or not.

[DraconisArcanus]

that can be your opinion, but its also like saying - "my god is the right god, your god is the wrong god".
and if youre making a statement like that, on a Pagan forum - dont be surprised if someone attacks you. i love ya, but i had to respond because that statement pissed me off.
i worship the Irish Gods, but I acknowlege the rest of the Gods out there (including your God), and NEVER would I say that any of them are human inventions or inadequate.
Morr..... I adore you and have always enjoyed your post but I fail to see where nothing more than an opinion was stated. I took no offense and feel you are being a bit sensitive here. Aine of the Fae has as much right as any of us to offer our opinion. I don't always agree with you either but I allow you your opinion regardless and would never attack anyone one here. I think the use of the word attack was not the word you wanted to use but did so in the haste to make sure your point was made. If I'm wrong, sorry. Just my opinion!

Peace!

[FairyMoon]

Allow a newbie to butt in with her 2 cents please. It is rather hard to take reading that you believe everyone elses Gods are of their own invention. If you really think about it, Everyone's concept or how they view the Gods are human invention. That means including your own concept and view, right? I feel that what you are saying, Aine of the Fae, is that everyone's concept or view of God is invalid. All but your own view. I think it would be better put like this : Your concept of God is the only one that makes sense to you and that is what you believe. It just looks like discrimination when you put it that other way. BB

[Morr]

Morr..... I adore you and have always enjoyed your post but I fail to see where nothing more than an opinion was stated. I took no offense and feel you are being a bit sensitive here. Aine of the Fae has as much right as any of us to offer our opinion. I don't always agree with you either but I allow you your opinion regardless and would never attack anyone one here. I think the use of the word attack was not the word you wanted to use but did so in the haste to make sure your point was made. If I'm wrong, sorry. Just my opinion!

Peace!

she can believe whatever she wants.
I respect her & her god... Hell, I totally believe that Y-H-V-H is a god out there, and is just as valid as any other Gods out there. He just doesnt speak to me.
But I think she could have used nicer & less offensive words.. I find that calling MY Gods "inadequate" and/or "human expressions/inventions", is offensive.

[Aine of the Fae]

Allow a newbie to butt in with her 2 cents please. It is rather hard to take reading that you believe everyone elses Gods are of their own invention. If you really think about it, Everyone's concept or how they view the Gods are human invention. That means including your own concept and view, right? I feel that what you are saying, Aine of the Fae, is that everyone's concept or view of God is invalid. All but your own view. I think it would be better put like this : Your concept of God is the only one that makes sense to you and that is what you believe. It just looks like discrimination when you put it that other way. BB

No one's beliefs about God are invalid. But I don't believe that humanity fully understands God, myself included. I expressed an opinion, and perhaps the way I expressed it was wrong, because I certainly didn't expect the backlash that I've gotten from it. Saying that I believe "All gods are one God" would be a lie, because I don't believe that. I do honestly believe that the various deities throughout the world are human attempts to limit and define and infinite, limitless, undefinable Divine. And that includes my own attempts to define God. I just don't think it can be done. But that is my opinion, and if I'm not allowed to express my opinion without be attacked, I will leave. I am becoming increasingly frustrated because I'm told again and again that I can't believe what I believe, I can't be what I am.... Then I defen my beliefs, from my perspective. I'm not trying to convince anyone. Half the time, when I state something it's more for my own clarification. I think better when I write something and can re-read it again and again. I like that I can get input from others here. And very often I will write something, re-read it, get others opinions, and change my mind about it. But I've also been made to feel like I'm not allowed to change my mind. The very fact that I'm a very open and vocal person pushes me into a corner and has everyone trying to put me in a box. People can tell me that I'm wrong, but the minute I express an opinion, and state that it is opinion, not fact, I'm the bad guy. I'm hurt, I'm frustrated, and maybe it is time for me to go.

[FairyMoon]

nonononononononono I DONT want you to go and I DONT want you to feel attacked by us, me especially. I felt a little hurt too at what was said, but you've said your piece and that's done and over with. If it makes you feel this way then lets drop it here okay. I agree. It is hard to get accross the full meaning what you want to explain online. Sorry if you took what I said as another attack, I was just trying to get things better worded I guess. Blessed be.

[Morr]

No one's beliefs about God are invalid. But I don't believe that humanity fully understands God, myself included. I expressed an opinion, and perhaps the way I expressed it was wrong, because I certainly didn't expect the backlash that I've gotten from it. Saying that I believe "All gods are one God" would be a lie, because I don't believe that. I do honestly believe that the various deities throughout the world are human attempts to limit and define and infinite, limitless, undefinable Divine. And that includes my own attempts to define God. I just don't think it can be done. But that is my opinion, and if I'm not allowed to express my opinion without be attacked, I will leave. I am becoming increasingly frustrated because I'm told again and again that I can't believe what I believe, I can't be what I am.... Then I defen my beliefs, from my perspective. I'm not trying to convince anyone. Half the time, when I state something it's more for my own clarification. I think better when I write something and can re-read it again and again. I like that I can get input from others here. And very often I will write something, re-read it, get others opinions, and change my mind about it. But I've also been made to feel like I'm not allowed to change my mind. The very fact that I'm a very open and vocal person pushes me into a corner and has everyone trying to put me in a box. People can tell me that I'm wrong, but the minute I express an opinion, and state that it is opinion, not fact, I'm the bad guy. I'm hurt, I'm frustrated, and maybe it is time for me to go.


aine, when did i say that your belief is wrong?
you can believe that god is a pink cow, for all i care.. but you could have worded your beliefs differently.

If I tell you that I dont believe that Jesus is an incarnation of God or the Messiah - I explain myself in nice, neutral words... I dont say something to the effect of - "Jesus was a regular human who lied & was power hungry, looking to gain glory & power through his lies about being God, and his students just finished the job for him after he died on the cross - like millions of others (making his death insignificant)"

*note, this was JUST AN EXAMPLE*

get what I mean?

[Ben Trismegistus]

OK ladies, I'm not taking sides of this argument. You're both smart, and you both respect the other's point of view. So is it possible to drop the argument and return to the topic?

[Brinclhof]

Ok. I just noticed this discussion and want to get in for a brief moment to see if I can help out.

Aine as a student in your Christian witchcraft class and I hope a friend, I think I understand your path some what so I would like to try to make a clarifying statement to stop the disagreement. This is my personal belief and feel that it is close to yours so maybe the wording here will help. If not then it is pertinent info to the topic anyway.

I call myself a christo-pagan. I believe in the Divine trinity just as Aine of the Fae does. It is my belief that all the other gods are different interpretations of the same god so that God can relate better to a specific culture. Since I am not of that culture they are inadequate interpretations to me. To that culture they are adequate and probably make more sense than 1 being with three parts. (almost makes god sound like a Multiple personality disorder doesn't it.). That does not mean the other gods are inadequate they just don't seem to make sense to me which is why I don't worship God in that form I worship God in the form of Jehovah, Jesus and the HOly Spirit. That is what I was raised with so that is what is comfortable.

Aine I think this is close to your veiw and may be a more shall we say Politically correct way of putting things.

HOpe this was helpful and does not cause further deterioriation of the thread.

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you Brinclhof, that does explain it better than I did.

[Mab]

Answers from another Christian witch & Christian Witchcraft student of Aine's.

1) Do you believe in the concept of Original Sin and the Fall of Adam and Eve. I was raised Baptist (Southern Baptist at that) and this is a biggie for them. It is what made the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross necessary.

Yes

2) Do you believe in the concept of an Absolute Evil Entity/Force such as Satan.

Yes. Maybe not Lucifer, per se, but definitely beleive Absolute Evil exists. Have felt it.

3) Do you believe God is only Male.

NO. To my mind & based on my Baptist upbringing, God is neither male nor female, but the perfect balance of both. "He" is anthropomorphized as male b/c of the patriarchal society that put "Him" into words. That's what happens when men are in control. If women were in control of the learning & books at the time, God would have become "Her".

4) Do you believe God is separate from His Creation...i.e, A Transcendant Deity.

Yes & No. I believe God created things & ppl, and that a measure of the Divine exists in all things because of this.

5) In Sunday School I was taught that it was absolutly necessary to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and only through him could you obtain Salvation. Do you believe salvation is nescessary? If so, why?

Yes, I do. I can't much explain why or how, but I do. I believe it's necessary, but I believe diff ppl arrive at that end via diff paths.

6) Do you worship other Gods and/or Goddesses...if so how do you reconcile this with the Commandment " Thou shalt have no other gods before me?"

I don't worship other gods or goddesses---I see every deity I address as an aspect of the One. Ex: When I call on The Morrigan, I am pulling on the aspect of feminine strength & understanding that is simply a part of the Whole.

[Pandoras]

OK. I'm still a little confused and have some questions of my own.


What is the difference between a Christian Witch and a Christo Pagan?
What do you believe the Bible is? The word of God? A book written by men? Inspired by God?


Please be as specific as possible and please don't take offence because I am genuinely curious.

[Loopaleigh]

OK ladies, I'm not taking sides of this argument. You're both smart, and you both respect the other's point of view. So is it possible to drop the argument and return to the topic?

Ok, first, Thank You Ben for getting this back to my original intent. I just wanted to learn something new. Learn about a Path that previously I knew nothing about, not a heated debate. I respect everyone's right to agree/defend their beliefs, but there already is a Thread going on in this forum covering that angle.

Second, my you people get up early.....my butt was still in bed while all of this was going on :)

Third, there's a Hardcover of Principia Discordia!?! Must go look into that....right after I've re-read all your posts.

[Aine of the Fae]

OK. I'm still a little confused and have some questions of my own.


What is the difference between a Christian Witch and a Christo Pagan?
What do you believe the Bible is? The word of God? A book written by men? Inspired by God?


Please be as specific as possible and please don't take offence because I am genuinely curious.

Witchcraft is not a religion, it's a way to do a religion. Paganism is any religion other than "the big three..." Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam. Some fundamentalist Christians will through Islam and occasionally even Judaism in with the Pagans, however, technically those three religions worship the same God. They view that God differently, but for the most part acknowledge that it is the same God. At least the Christian holy texts acknowledge they worship the God of the Jews and the muslim Holy text acknowledges they worship the God of the Jews and Christians.

I believe the Bible was inspired by God, but written and expanded upon by men. And men are flawed creatures, therefore the Bible has flaws. To claim it is perfect, the inerrant Word of God, is to deny those flaws and set your faith up for failure, because as soon as you realize those flaws you've been denying for so long, you crush yourself. If you come from the point of view that it is flawed, but still beautiful, that possibility of failure of faith isn't there.

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, first, Thank You Ben for getting this back to my original intent. I just wanted to learn something new. Learn about a Path that previously I knew nothing about, not a heated debate. I respect everyone's right to agree/defend their beliefs, but there already is a Thread going on in this forum covering that angle.

Second, my you people get up early.....my butt was still in bed while all of this was going on :)

Third, there's a Hardcover of Principia Discordia!?! Must go look into that....right after I've re-read all your posts.

Not harcover, but hard copy :D Paperback, in print.

[Mab]

OK. I'm still a little confused and have some questions of my own.

What is the difference between a Christian Witch and a Christo People?
What do you believe the Bible is? The word of God? A book written by men? Inspired by God?

Please be as specific as possible and please don't take offence because I am genuinely curious.
1. As Aine pointed out, witchcraft is a practice. Paganism (from my experience, so please don't stone me) is typically a religion or life philosophy rather than just a practice. For me witchcraft is a tool....like rosary beads.

2. I believe the Bible is the Divinely inspired Word of God. That is, I believe God inspired humans to write it via whatever method (visions, revelations, simply getting verbal histories & laws written down, personal experience, whatever). I do believe that the Bible itself as a book is flawed b/c it came through flawed channels--that is, humans. I mean...how many times do we see what we want to see, or interpret things differently. To me, what currently passes as the Bible (with very few exceptions) is rather like getting a story through the grapevine....it ain't exactly how it started.

[Pandoras]

Witchcraft is not a religion, it's a way to do a religion.

How do reconcile your beliefs with Biblical passages that explicitly condemn it as wrong and/or evil? Or do you dimiss that, following that it's one of those flaws due to man's flawed nature? I'm not denying that there is magic in the Bible, but the kind of witchcraft that we practice today is not the same.



I believe the Bible was inspired by God, but written and expanded upon by men. And men are flawed creatures, therefore the Bible has flaws. To claim it is perfect, the inerrant Word of God, is to deny those flaws and set your faith up for failure, because as soon as you realize those flaws you've been denying for so long, you crush yourself. If you come from the point of view that it is flawed, but still beautiful, that possibility of failure of faith isn't there.

How do you judge and/or decide whether something in the Bible is a flaw?

Mab - You also responded along similar lines so I'd love your thoughts as well.

[Mab]

How do reconcile your beliefs with Biblical passages that explicitly condemn it as wrong and/or evil? Or do you dimiss that, following that it's one of those flaws due to man's flawed nature? I'm not denying that there is magic in the Bible, but the kind of witchcraft that we practice today is not the same.




How do you judge and/or decide whether something in the Bible is a flaw?

Mab - You also responded along similar lines so I'd love your thoughts as well.
Ok, here's mine:

It's based on personal experience & "gut feeling" for me, in large part, so I don't have factual answers or references for you. I can tell you that I have premonitions that are very much on the "good" side--that is that they are usually warnings of danger that have kept ppl safe by heeding them. I can sense evil & I know that it's not in me. I had my "magical" feelings for as long as I remember.

I actually was just thinking about this last night, and it occurred to me that if I were to go back to the times that the Bible was written, or re-written, or printed, & ppl were persecuting witches, that the very fact that I can read, write, converse via digital symbols shot through space to satellites & over to somebody half a world away would make me a witch. That I even have a TV would, by those definitions, make me a witch. So, to me, the definition of "witch" needs to be revamped every so often just as everything else does. Gotta update.

Also, to my mind, witchcraft is very scientific--it's basically (for me) energy work. If I can manipulate & harnass energy in the form of microwaves to cook my Lean Cuisine for lunch, why can't I harnass natural energy to send protection or good wishes to a loved one, or to read cards to help me gain some insight on an issue?

My beliefs still remain at the most basic level Christian. I don't follow all the "rules" anymore than I follow all of anybody's rules. For me Christianity is a faith, not a religion. For me, religion means "this is what I believe & what I have to DO b/c of that belief". For me, Christianity is "this is what I believe, and the only thing I have to do is believe it."

I know it sounds contradictory, but....somehow it's workin' for me.

[Aine of the Fae]

How do reconcile your beliefs with Biblical passages that explicitly condemn it as wrong and/or evil? Or do you dimiss that, following that it's one of those flaws due to man's flawed nature? I'm not denying that there is magic in the Bible, but the kind of witchcraft that we practice today is not the same.




How do you judge and/or decide whether something in the Bible is a flaw?

Mab - You also responded along similar lines so I'd love your thoughts as well.

First, when reading the Bible, I consider the culture in which it was written. Much of the laws and prohibitions in the Bible can be seen as cultural, and so can easily be sorted out. For example, the banning of certain foods can easily be seen as more of a problem with hygiene then their really being bad. For instance pork, when not properly cooked, can spread parasitic disease. The same with seafood of certain types.

Also, what we consider witchcraft today is likely to be vastly different from what was called witchcraft in Biblical times. From my own personal studies of the Bible, the instances of witchcraft that are most specifically condemned are those where magic is used to A) turn others away from God or B) control others in any way. I don't do either.

As far as deciding whether it's a flaw? You have to consider the entire Bible. You have to see if there is anything elsewhere in the Bible that contradicts the statement. And then, because I am a Christian, I hold that up in the light of Jesus statements, and teachings. If it contradicts his teachings then I consider it flawed. It may still be worth considering, or have a lesson, but I consider it flawed nonetheless. This doesn't mean everyone will agree with me, and what I see as flawed, others may see as perfect.

[Mab]

yeah...what she said, too....I was raised a good portion of my life to study the Bible word by word, line by line, verse by verse starting with the original languages, and to study not just the writing, but the culture & the history of the time & place of the original writings.

[Pandoras]

Thank you. I think you have both expressed it all very well. It certainly does clear up some things for me.

[Loopaleigh]

Not harcover, but hard copy :D Paperback, in print.


Awwww...no wonder I couldn't find it on Amazon! :awwman: I was all excited too!
I also feel kinda dumb, since I worked in a bookstore for 6 years and should know the difference! :reading:

But seriously...you guys are very Liberal...how do you feel about the more Conservative types? Do you think Fundamentalist Christianity is counter productive...keeps people away from the faith? I sometimes wonder if Jesus came back today if the fundies would even recognize him all hippied out with his long hair and sandals.

[Mab]

Awwww...no wonder I couldn't find it on Amazon! :awwman: I was all excited too!
I also feel kinda dumb, since I worked in a bookstore for 6 years and should know the difference! :reading:

But seriously...you guys are very Liberal...how do you feel about the more Conservative types? Do you think Fundamentalist Christianity is counter productive...keeps people away from the faith? I sometimes wonder if Jesus came back today if the fundies would even recognize him all hippied out with his long hair and sandals.honestly? My very conservative Christian family makes me nuts. They are so very very "religious right" that they of the "my way or you're wrong" persuasion.....which is why they live in a different state than I do & they don't know about my witchy tendencies. :whistle:

I think Jesus would probably look at everybody & go "um, no, you're close, you're screwy, where the hell did you get THAT, but nobody's got it really right. Let me start over...." and maybe "You ppl need to learn to think a bit for yourselves...you think My Father didn't know computers & cars & cell phones & women's lib was coming?"

I do think that the hard-core fundies tend to be the ones giving Christians a bad rep. They all turn on each other & their own & have a tendency to only succeed in alienating ppl with the "I'm holier than thou, God loves me best" stuff.

[Aine of the Fae]

Awwww...no wonder I couldn't find it on Amazon! :awwman: I was all excited too!
I also feel kinda dumb, since I worked in a bookstore for 6 years and should know the difference! :reading:

But seriously...you guys are very Liberal...how do you feel about the more Conservative types? Do you think Fundamentalist Christianity is counter productive...keeps people away from the faith? I sometimes wonder if Jesus came back today if the fundies would even recognize him all hippied out with his long hair and sandals.

I do think Fundamentalist Christianity is counter-productive to a point. Some people enjoy the rigidity, like being told what to think and when to think it, but for the most part, people like to think for themselves, and fundamentalism pushes people like that far, far away.

[Loopaleigh]

Mab's Quote.....
I think Jesus would probably look at everybody & go "um, no, you're close, you're screwy, where the hell did you get THAT, but nobody's got it really right. Let me start over...." and maybe "You ppl need to learn to think a bit for yourselves...you think My Father didn't know computers & cars & cell phones & women's lib was coming?"
----------------------------------
:rotfl: It's the "you're close, you're screwy, where the hell did you get THAT.......that cracked me up!

[Morr]

i am so very sorry,
but all this talk about "i decide whats flawed in the bible" etc...
ummm, Jesus IS PART of the bible... Jesus CAME from the bible... Without the Bible, nobody would know about Jesus nor give a damn about him...

How do you make the decision that Jesus & his teachings are NOT flawed, yet the rest of the teachings of the bible that Jesus contradicts are therefore FLAWED?

In my mind, thats a very hypocritical statement.

[Aine of the Fae]

i am so very sorry,
but all this talk about "i decide whats flawed in the bible" etc...
ummm, Jesus IS PART of the bible... Jesus CAME from the bible... Without the Bible, nobody would know about Jesus nor give a damn about him...

How do you make the decision that Jesus & his teachings are NOT flawed, yet the rest of the teachings of the bible that Jesus contradicts are therefore FLAWED?

In my mind, thats a very hypocritical statement.

Based on personal feeling. It's a choice to believe in Jesus, just as it's your choice not to.

[Morr]

Based on personal feeling. It's a choice to believe in Jesus, just as it's your choice not to.


i dont get it.
but ok!
:drinking:

[Aine of the Fae]

i dont get it.
but ok!
:drinking:

I don't get why half the people here believe what they believe. But I don't question why they believe it. Why is it ok to question me, to tell me that I can't believe what I do, but when I say what I believe, I'm attacking someone?

The attitudes of Pagans toward Christian witches do one of two things A) push christians toward paganism, unhappily or B) push Christians further into Christianity toward fundamentalism, where they then turn around and lash out at the very pagans they were trying to fit in with.

[Morr]

I don't get why half the people here believe what they believe. But I don't question why they believe it. Why is it ok to question me, to tell me that I can't believe what I do, but when I say what I believe, I'm attacking someone?

The attitudes of Pagans toward Christian witches do one of two things A) push christians toward paganism, unhappily or B) push Christians further into Christianity toward fundamentalism, where they then turn around and lash out at the very pagans they were trying to fit in with.


Jesus Christ,
i didnt say anything, i was asking a damn question just because i dont understand how one can agree that a book IS written by humans and WAS edited & twisted around for over 2000 years, yet choose to pick parts of it and say that they are truth.

i was just asking a question - so dont you dare lash out at me, when I was the LAST person to criticize you for being a Christian Witch.
I could care less what you do with Jesus and Witchcraft and how you combine them together.

I'm just trying to understand your path better.
I NEVER tried to tell you what you CAN believe and what you CANT. The closest I ever came to such a thing is talk to you on a theological level, not a "right or wrong" level.

But hey, it wasnt ME who called other people's Gods "inadequate" & "Human Inventions"...

[Aes Sidhe]

Well, first I would like to make note that not a single teaching of Christ as recorded in the earliest manuscripts we have found (and so translated to the other languages from) contradicts anything else that was written.

And secondly it is very sad, that Christians shun pagans and pagans shun Christians, when realistically they should both hold nothing but love for one another. Well, celtic pagans anyway, especially during their festivals where it is the greatest dishonor that anyone should go hungry and/or not be invited to a hearth.

[Aine of the Fae]

Jesus Christ,
i didnt say anything, i was asking a damn question just because i dont understand how one can agree that a book IS written by humans and WAS edited & twisted around for over 2000 years, yet choose to pick parts of it and say that they are truth.

i was just asking a question - so dont you dare lash out at me, when I was the LAST person to criticize you for being a Christian Witch.
I could care less what you do with Jesus and Witchcraft and how you combine them together.

I'm just trying to understand your path better.
I NEVER tried to tell you what you CAN believe and what you CANT. The closest I ever came to such a thing is talk to you on a theological level, not a "right or wrong" level.

But hey, it wasnt ME who called other people's Gods "inadequate" & "Human Inventions"...

Morr it's not you. I'm just getting frustrated here. I've received private, personal attacks from members of this board and I just can't handle it anymore.

[Morr]

Morr it's not you. I'm just getting frustrated here. I've received private, personal attacks from members of this board and I just can't handle it anymore.


then FW the messages to Admins and report those people

[Pandoras]

OK, wait! I changed my mind; I do have some more questions.

OK, I am going to make some very broad GENERALIZATIONS. I am NOT saying that all Pagans are this way or all Christians are that way. They are GENERALIZATIONS and they are opposing ideas in Paganism and conservative (not liberal) Christianity. I'd like to know how Christian Witches/Christo Pagans reconcile them.

Here we go...

Paganism has generally accepted the equality of men and women. Christianity has historically reserved positions of power in the church, the rest of society and the family for males.

Paganism regards responsible sexual behavior as a gift of the God/Goddess. Some Pagan couples engage in private sexual rituals. Christianity has tended to have a negative and restrictive view of sexual behavior.

Paganism generally accepts all sexual orientations as normal and natural: heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual. Christianity has tended to view homosexuality and bisexuality as unnatural, abnormal, chosen, changeable and intrinsically sinful.

Paganism often stresses the cycles of life and look upon time largely as cyclical. Christianity largely views time as linear.

Most Pagans reject the concept of Heaven and Hell, and many even embrace reincarnation. The concept that a person must believe certain things or behave in a certain way to achieve salvation and avoid being tortured in Hell for all eternity is foreign to most Pagans.

Many Pagans practice witchcraft and divination, which they view as natural and even an integral aspect of their religion. While the Bible seems to overlook some forms of divination, it also contains passages condemning many of the divination techniques. While liberal theologians point out that the word in the Hebrew Scriptures that is commonly translated as Witch or Witchcraft really refers to the practice of reciting curses, which are intended to hurt or kill other people, conservative Christianity has, historically, generally condemned all forms.

Regarding some of the 10 Commandments...

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
This passage seems to indicate that the author of the 10 commandments acknowledges the existence of other gods beside Jehovah. However, the commandment does seem to prohibit worshiping the Pagan gods and goddesses.

Concerning graven images: Many Pagans do use statues on their altars.

Remember the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) and keep it holy.
This conflicts with the Pagan worship schedule, which includes 8 Sabbats, 13 or so full moons and perhaps 13 new moons per year - a total of about 34 Sabbats and Esbats -- less than the approximately 52 Sabbaths of Judeo-Christianity.

I realize many Christians have problems with these commandments: most don't worship on Saturday; many have statues of the Virgin Mary and crucifixes. Yet they still consider themselves to be Christian.

One more thing...do you regard the the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Scriptures, both, neither, or only the sayings attributed to Jesus? Besides the Bible, what other books do you look to (i.e. the Nag Hammadi, for instance)?

Sorry, I know this is long, but you are the first Christian Witches/ Christo Pagans I've ever talked with.

[Tobias]

I consider myself more of a Christian Mystic rather than a Christian Witch because IMO I don't really practice any witchcraft. Of course... that is kind of subject to individual interpretation. My foundations are very Christian, though many of my current beliefs lean strongly toward Paganism.

My path began many years ago when as a good little Christian boy God started speaking to me and I let Him lead my life. I remained an active Christian up until a year and a half ago when I finally quit going to church. But it was over 20 years ago when I listened and believed God's voice as He explained to me that the Bible wasn't entirely correct.

I learned to hear (or perceive) God's inspiration when and where He was active. Sometimes preachers manage to relate God's message. I worked in churches where the power of God was sought after, and spent my time tunning into the spiritual. I learned to discern the difference between the works of God and the ones people only claimed were of Him.

The Bible is no different. People make mistakes, yet God has chosen to use human voices to speak through. I do not believe the Bible is some miraculous exeption to the rules. Sometimes the writters got it right, other times they missed it. Anyone who sincerely wants to know God has to go through the prossess of finding out the Truth from Him.

That should answer how *I* deal with many of the questions asked here. I just take it up with God myself and find out what He has to say. Things like homosexuality are a bit tougher to answer, as it isn't something I deal with personally and so it is much harder to get a definite answer.

I have found though that God is not discusted with my sexuality. I have instincts that drive me that are not monogomous. I've found that instincts are neither bad nor good, and they are not easily reprogrammed (if that's even possible!) However, I have also seen the spiritual value of the traditional family unit and the harm that children suffer from us messing with it. I get the impression that God is ballanced enough and wise enough to weigh out the pros and cons of each person's (or couple's) situation and come up with individual recomendations for all.


Paganism has generally accepted the equality of men and women. Christianity has historically reserved positions of power in the church, the rest of society and the family for males.

This I would attribute to the traditions of the society at the time God was working with them. I guess this leads into my Pagan side, where I think that God is some benevolent Being (or Beings) who have involved themselves into the lives of us humans by reveiling themselves in whatever form we could best accept and would best suit them. I know God as God because I inherited Christianity from my ancestors. And I've inheireted the many centuries of wisdom that Christianity has to offer because God chose to reveal Himself to me in that setting. I did have to leave one sect of Christianity for another for God to work with me, and can assume that for anyone to recieve guidance from Divinity they must follow the specific path they are led to.

This post is getting too long...

[Tobias]

Paganism often stresses the cycles of life and look upon time largely as cyclical. Christianity largely views time as linear.

Most Pagans reject the concept of Heaven and Hell, and many even embrace reincarnation. The concept that a person must believe certain things or behave in a certain way to achieve salvation and avoid being tortured in Hell for all eternity is foreign to most Pagans.



To tell you the truth, I have no idea! Sometimes I wonder if I haven't reincarnated many times over, other times I reject reincarnation as illogical.

Do the cycles of the moon really affect what type of magick can be performed, or are those who believe this merely limiting their abilities?

I do still believe in a form of hell though. I think that a person can be locked into a cycle of yeilding their strength to parasitic spirits and not know how to ever break free. This was a problem I grew up with myself, and had to learn how to set bounderies and defend myself. I bet this is a lot of what Jesus had to deal with in ancient Palastine with all the exorcisms he did. These people were in danger of eternal torment, and our concept of hell developed from there.


Many Pagans practice witchcraft and divination, which they view as natural and even an integral aspect of their religion. While the Bible seems to overlook some forms of divination, it also contains passages condemning many of the divination techniques. While liberal theologians point out that the word in the Hebrew Scriptures that is commonly translated as Witch or Witchcraft really refers to the practice of reciting curses, which are intended to hurt or kill other people, conservative Christianity has, historically, generally condemned all forms.

There is quite a bit of magick described in the Bible. It's all about terminology though, as to what is forbidden and what is not. The common fallacy amoungst Christians is to consider it "God's power" vs. "Satan's power". I don't believe in a "Satan" anymore.

I guess the real shortcut I use in determining what is allowed is to take it up with God myself. I suppose there are many magickal things I've incorperated into my life as common practice, but I also feel I've been forbidden from practicing magick -- at least for now. There are some things I feel I could do, but know I must submit my abilities to God and let Him lead and guide my life. My religion is not about figuring out how to do everything for myself, but on how to rely on God and His Kingdom for direction on how to take care of my needs. He always leads me to whatever it is that not only fills the need but does so in a way that so many other things that were beyond my scope of wisdom are also taken care of at the same time.

Human abilities are human abilities, whether they be "magickal" or physical. I've found the need to submit both kinds to God's wisdom, and to be given the go-ahead to use either kind when the time and the situation is right. I guess when I think of "Witchcraft", I still associate it to doing things in your own strength or out of your own desires. That is mostly why I don't concider myself a "Christian Witch". It helps rectify things with Christianity, and keeps me out of all the arguements people like Aine of the Fae have to deal with! :D