More on Wiccan PR: Internal Perception

[Ben Trismegistus]

Maybe 8 or 9 months ago, I started a thread on Wiccan PR which got me in a lot of trouble. I was discussing the misconceptions about the Wiccan community held by those outside of Paganism. The general response was, "Why do you care what people think?"

Well, I still care what people think, but this morning I was struck by the perceptions of the Wiccan community held by those WITHIN the Pagan community. Judging from the posts on this forum regarding Wicca written by non-Wiccans (and even by some Wiccans), it can be surmised that Wiccans are two things:

1. Flaky, silly morons who pick and choose various bits of ancient and modern religious systems in order to create a piecemeal conglomeration of whatever appeals to them personally at that moment. They have no respect for history, tradition, or culture, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

2. Rigid, dogmatic ideologues who have replaced the glories of the Goddess with a myriad of strict rules of practice, not changing with the times. They look down on other pagans as "not pagan enough", scoff at anyone who did not receive a full Gardnerian initiation, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

How does one recognize two wildly differing stereotypes? How can we as a community be both flaky and rigid? Speaking as a Wiccan who is neither, it seems like rather a difficult proposition.

So where did these two misconceptions come from? I ask the non-Wiccans in this community -- why do you think that Wiccans are either making it up as they go along, or so dogmatic as to be just about the same as Christianity with different rituals? I'm really curious.

[LadyTrinity]

:whatgives

[Tullip Troll]

A lot of it had to do with all the times I heard someone(Wiccans) say "thats wrong"

SilverRW is wrong
Cabbott is Wrong
DJ..Con...something like that is wrong...the list goes on

Or the fact that I heard about how so much of it was based on lies...SO it left me thinking it was flakey...

MheraPai

I have a better opinion of it now...but I had to meet a few unflakey people first.

[Ben Gruagach]

I think a lot of this (to be blunt) stupid immature behaviour is part of growing up. The two stereotypes you listed as applying within Wicca are also quite evident among non-Wiccan Pagans and non-Pagans too.

Sarah M. Pike talks about this in her excellent book "Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves: Contemporary Pagans and the Search for Community." What it seems to boil down to is the desire to define one's community by spending a lot of energy talking about what they are NOT. Wiccans do it when they go on at length about how they are not Satanists. These days I see it more often when various witches and Pagans go to great lengths to say they are not Wiccan. It usually seems to involve considering the "other" to be lesser and includes outright put-downs. It looks like plain old name-calling and seems awfully petty to me.

Personally I think it's much healthier, and more mature, to focus on what we ARE about instead of what we're not about. If I ask someone about their particular path I'm interested in hearing about what they do believe and what they do practice. I couldn't care less about hearing how they AREN'T such-and-such.

It's the difference between having a positive or constructive outlook or a negative destructive one.

The Pagan community is a diverse one with a huge range of beliefs and practices. The fuss over judging others as being "fluffy" seems to be a lot of holier-than-thou diversion that really doesn't set a very mature example. I have to admit that when I see or hear self-professed teachers or elders railing about "fluffies" (or whatever it is politically correct to bash at the time) I have a tendency to lose respect for that person.

People who are not caught up in status games and who are willing to celebrate the diversity, even if they personally don't agree with specific ideas or practices, are the ones who I look to as role models. I know I'm not perfect myself but I do try to be constructive and encourage others rather than just make people feel bad with put-downs.

As a Wiccan, I like to remind myself that in the Charge of the Goddess the holy Lady tells us, "All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals." That leaves a whole lot of range for how Wiccans can choose to practice. And it leaves it wide open for respecting how others do things too.

[Athena-Nadine]

Well, for me, it isn't a matter of me thinking that Wiccans in general are that way. Unfortunately, there seems to be a fairly recent trend of people coming to the Pagan community and calling themselves Wiccan without having any idea of what being Wiccan means. These same people, while screaming for tolerance, look down on and disrespect the cultures and religions so many parts of Wicca came from. Do I think that these people represent the Wiccan faith? No. I've been involved in the Pagan community for too long and have too many friends who are Wiccan. I know better than that. Sadly, they do often seem to be the loudest.

Wicca isn't a dogmatic religion. But it isn't a "do whatever you want" religion, either. It is a religion that focuses on personal responsibility, but it seems to me that there are now many people ignoring that fact. I may not be Wiccan, but even I can see the trend. Wicca is such a beautiful religion. It saddens me to see that the word is starting to lose its meaning. It's becoming so equated with "Pagan" and "Do whatever you want and damn the consequences" that a large part of the rest of the Pagan community doesn't want to associate with the title "Pagan" anymore.

[EbonyMyst]

Because too many people nowadays read a few books on wicca and think it entitles them to use the title 'Wiccan', not giving a second thought to the Real Wiccans that have studied and worked their asses off with a coven and actually EARNED their title. The 'book leaned' wiccans really pi$$ me off...as anyone that has researched this topic properly will know, Wicca is an oral tradition that cannot be learned simply from reading books on it.

[Morr]

Well, I was a Wiccan for 5 years...
But I've moved on.. Honestly, I dont know many people who are Wiccan and NOT teenagers or in their early 20s... Maybe its just cause im not exposed enough, and maybe I'm just wrong.
But it does seem like a Teen thing.. Maybe its a trend, maybe its becasue of authors such as Silver RavenWolf... Maybe its just the way I feel & see things.

Not all Wiccans are fluffy or rigid.
But I see more fluffiness then anything. Talk about how we should all live in harmoney, make sure we harm absolutely no one & nothing through our actions & words, being - in a way - self rightous... Nah I dont buy all that...
Again, not all Wiccans are like this. But some, if not most, are. At least the ones I've encountered.

For a long time I felt uncomfortable in the Wicca shoes... Thats why I moved on.. The way Wicca presents itself nowadays is just - Fluffy. I dont know how to explain it otherwise.

Its like religion's teeny~bopper, if that makes sense.
Maybe its not the religion itself, but rather the people representing it (not all Wiccans though, but A LOT).

I respect it though... If Wicca makes you happy - then by all means be a Wiccan.

[Ben Trismegistus]

For a long time I felt uncomfortable in the Wicca shoes... Thats why I moved on.. The way Wicca presents itself nowadays is just - Fluffy. I dont know how to explain it otherwise.
See this is the sort of thing I want to know. I'd love to know where this perception comes from. Yes, I know that there are people out there like Silver RavenWolf (who, for the record, does not refer to herself as Wiccan), and droves of people who don't know what they're doing. But to me, the core of Wicca is made up of intelligent people who know their history and their tradition, and follow an eclectic but not dogmatic set of ritual practices.

I don't know how to differentiate the pseudo-Wiccans from people like me and my coven and Deb Lipp.

[kaosxmage]

Non-Wiccan reporting as requested:

My problems with wiccans were of a specific variety. First, I will always shake my head at those that think they are practicing some long living passed down oral tradition ...you're not. You're participating in an evolving system that began with Gardner and most likely Crowley. Unfortunately for wiccans there is a problem with much of the text in print, it's either fluffy for teens become a witch over night stuff, or it's absolutely shoddy research with even shoddier history by the likes of D.J. Conway and crowd. There still seems to be an elitist attitude amongst some of those that participate in covens ...I've seen symptoms of such behavior before, and it's usually displayed by Jehovas Witness's or Mormons.

Now as I've gotten older and been a part of the pagan community much longer, I've found that my early stereotypes of wiccans wasn't exactly accurate. They're not all fluffy or ignorant of their path's past. That's a good thing. It can be a wonderful tradition, and there are many wonderful practicioners ...all beliefs are a glimpse of the truth anyway, in some manner.

To those wiccans doing their own thing, now I say keep on keepin on. Keep it progressive, keep it alive. But those that that want to spout off about their great great grandmother being a 33rd degree grand poobah of witches who is a direct descendant of the matriarchal society of goddessville with streets of gold all over indoeuropean cultures, all I can say is ...love don't live here anymore. One day you might find a chaos mage in your circle.

A non-wiccan response as requested,
--Kaos

[EbonyMyst]

In reply to Kaosxmage, I too was replying as a non Wiccan, but as I take it your post was directed at me, i will respond.

I do not think wicca is a long living, passed down tradition, however, I will stick with the fact that it is an oral tradition. I studied for my first degree, yes my coven had lineage to Gardner, but I do not think my attitude to be elitist because I believe that Wicca is coven taught.

And the problem 'Wiccan's' face today with the text in print is that it only touches upon the ways of Wiccans, it cannot teach you Wicca! If you disagree so much, then do what I did...find a group to study with, check their lineage, question everything they teach you and you will see the difference between the two.

I decided that Wicca was not for me, it wasn't a path I found particulary fulfilling, I am not a religious person, therefore only class myself as a witch.

Ebony

[LacyRoze]

Because too many people nowadays read a few books on wicca and think it entitles them to use the title 'Wiccan', not giving a second thought to the Real Wiccans that have studied and worked their asses off with a coven and actually EARNED their title. The 'book leaned' wiccans really pi$$ me off...as anyone that has researched this topic properly will know, Wicca is an oral tradition that cannot be learned simply from reading books on it.
This is the exact thing that turned me off from wicca. Ok,, you say it's an "oral tradition". Well, when no one is willing to talk to you about it what choice do you have but to turn to books? Now I realize just reading some books doesn't make you "wiccan" but it is certainly somewhere to start.

I have also realized that among pagans in general that if you're "new" you are often given sarcastic answers to your questions. Just because someone is "new" does not mean they are some teeny bopper looking for the cool thing that is in, no offense to those teens who take their paths seriously. I'm dang near 40 yrs old and I just recently discovered paganism. I want to learn, I'm eager to discover but I've realized not to count on others help because in alot of cases people just aren't willing. I understand hearing the same questions time and again gets old but try to understand people's enthusiasm and excitement in their discovery of something new...For me, for now, I'll stick to reading and trying to discover on my own until I meet someone willing to let me into their world and welcome me with patience and understanding...

[kaosxmage]

In reply to Kaosxmage, I too was replying as a non Wiccan, but as I take it your post was directed at me, i will respond.

I do not think wicca is a long living, passed down tradition, however, I will stick with the fact that it is an oral tradition. I studied for my first degree, yes my coven had lineage to Gardner, but I do not think my attitude to be elitist because I believe that Wicca is coven taught.

And the problem 'Wiccan's' face today with the text in print is that it only touches upon the ways of Wiccans, it cannot teach you Wicca! If you disagree so much, then do what I did...find a group to study with, check their lineage, question everything they teach you and you will see the difference between the two.

I decided that Wicca was not for me, it wasn't a path I found particulary fulfilling, I am not a religious person, therefore only class myself as a witch.

Ebony

Ebony,
You were not under any attack, I was merely stating an opinion on the various dislikes I 've encountered with the wiccan path. I have never been a wiccan nor will I ever be a wiccan, I do know their lineage, and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm up to. As for books, they are a tool to learn. The books in print to teach the ways of various paths, they make spreading knowledge much easier, and I just simply don't agree that anyone must be in acoven, circle, cult, church, temple, whateva ...in order to learn their path, and thus I view that as an elitist, you have to be in a gang to be member attitude. That's all ...rock on ... :jamsessio

Much love,
--Kaos

[Moonstoned]

This is the exact thing that turned me off from wicca. Ok,, you say it's an "oral tradition". Well, when no one is willing to talk to you about it what choice do you have but to turn to books? Now I realize just reading some books doesn't make you "wiccan" but it is certainly somewhere to start.

I have also realized that among pagans in general that if you're "new" you are often given sarcastic answers to your questions. Just because someone is "new" does not mean they are some teeny bopper looking for the cool thing that is in, no offense to those teens who take their paths seriously. I'm dang near 40 yrs old and I just recently discovered paganism. I want to learn, I'm eager to discover but I've realized not to count on others help because in alot of cases people just aren't willing. I understand hearing the same questions time and again gets old but try to understand people's enthusiasm and excitement in their discovery of something new...For me, for now, I'll stick to reading and trying to discover on my own until I meet someone willing to let me into their world and welcome me with patience and understanding...

I hear you LacyRoze. I am not Wiccan, it didn't gel with me, but I am sick to death of people being patronising about their spirituality if someone is interested and wants to learn.

This comment isn't anti anyone in particular, it is just a statement of my feelings in general.

Somebody a lot younger than me and not much life experience told me the other day to 'go read a book'. I nearly had a flipping apoplexy!!! I eat books, I try to learn all the time. I think sometimes it is youth getting all 'up itself'.

Baaaah! :graduate:

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, it's obvious to me that we need to work on our outreach.

[Moonstoned]

Ebony,
You were not under any attack, I was merely stating an opinion on the various dislikes I 've encountered with the wiccan path. I have never been a wiccan nor will I ever be a wiccan, I do know their lineage, and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm up to. As for books, they are a tool to learn. The books in print to teach the ways of various paths, they make spreading knowledge much easier, and I just simply don't agree that anyone must be in acoven, circle, cult, church, temple, whateva ...in order to learn their path, and thus I view that as an elitist, you have to be in a gang to be member attitude. That's all ...rock on ... :jamsessio

Much love,


--Kaos


Kaosmage, you are just too cool for school :hahugh: I like you, young man (see, I can be just as patronising as youth lol! NO, I DON'T MEAN YOU! I mean the twerp who dared to cross me on another board. Damned upstart! :razz: )

[DebLipp]

Non-Wiccan reporting as requested:

My problems with wiccans were of a specific variety. First, I will always shake my head at those that think they are practicing some long living passed down oral tradition ...you're not. You're participating in an evolving system that began with Gardner and most likely Crowley. Unfortunately for wiccans there is a problem with much of the text in print, it's either fluffy for teens become a witch over night stuff, or it's absolutely shoddy research with even shoddier history by the likes of D.J. Conway and crowd.
--Kaos

See, this sort of thing is crazy to me. There are smart, solid, reliable teacher and authors in Wicca, and then of course there are flakes. The same is true of ANY field of study. Why DJ Conway is singled out as Wiccan when she's also written "Norse Magic" and "Celtic Magic" (both of which are bad books) is beyond me.

But in the very same post where you complain about Wiccans having a lack of historical knowledge, you pass on the hoary rumor that Wicca "most likely" began with Crowley. Are you aware that this bit of "likelihood" comes from ONE unsubstantiated source with an axe to grind? And that no historian has found an evidence to back it up? And that Crowley's diaries reflect that he hadn't met Gardner until after the rituals in question were written?

So why do other Pagans and magicians get the pass on this sort of nonsense while Wiccans, and only Wiccans, are criticized for a "fluffy" lack of historical grounding?

[EbonyMyst]

Ebony,
You were not under any attack, I was merely stating an opinion on the various dislikes I 've encountered with the wiccan path.


Please don't worry, I certainly didn't feel under attack, I just felt that your post was directed towards my response, that's all.

I agree completely that the books are just a tool, my point was the people that read those books and then decide to use a title that is earned through much harder work than reading books. Just as a person wanting to enter a different faith..when I was younger, I studied many different faiths, I even took confirmation classes to learn about the C of E faith, which is the point I was making about proper learning...if you were wanting to convert to Christianity, reading the bible would not make you a Christian...there are studies to be done, normally under the supervision of a priest.

I certainly am not here to make enemies and if my post came across as agressive, I can only apologise as that was not my intention.

Ebony

[Moonstoned]

. Judging from the posts on this forum regarding Wicca written by non-Wiccans (and even by some Wiccans), it can be surmised that Wiccans are two things:

1. Flaky, silly morons who pick and choose various bits of ancient and modern religious systems in order to create a piecemeal conglomeration of whatever appeals to them personally at that moment. They have no respect for history, tradition, or culture, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

2. Rigid, dogmatic ideologues who have replaced the glories of the Goddess with a myriad of strict rules of practice, not changing with the times. They look down on other pagans as "not pagan enough", scoff at anyone who did not receive a full Gardnerian initiation, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

How does one recognize two wildly differing stereotypes? How can we as a community be both flaky and rigid? Speaking as a Wiccan who is neither, it seems like rather a difficult proposition.

So where did these two misconceptions come from? I ask the non-Wiccans in this community -- why do you think that Wiccans are either making it up as they go along, or so dogmatic as to be just about the same as Christianity with different rituals? I'm really curious.
Ben, don't you think that there are both types in the group? As well as those like yourself and DebLipp who know exactly what they are talking about and have got their Wiccan facts straight?

Every religion has flakes and dogmatic types in doesn't it? It isn't fair to pick on Wicca as being the only one. I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that both types don't exist in the group.

[kaosxmage]

See, this sort of thing is crazy to me. There are smart, solid, reliable teacher and authors in Wicca, and then of course there are flakes. The same is true of ANY field of study. Why DJ Conway is singled out as Wiccan when she's also written "Norse Magic" and "Celtic Magic" (both of which are bad books) is beyond me.

But in the very same post where you complain about Wiccans having a lack of historical knowledge, you pass on the hoary rumor that Wicca "most likely" began with Crowley. Are you aware that this bit of "likelihood" comes from ONE unsubstantiated source with an axe to grind? And that no historian has found an evidence to back it up? And that Crowley's diaries reflect that he hadn't met Gardner until after the rituals in question were written?

So why do other Pagans and magicians get the pass on this sort of nonsense while Wiccans, and only Wiccans, are criticized for a "fluffy" lack of historical grounding?

Deb,

Conway is often singled out because it's a short name. Celtic Magic and Norse Magic, two wonderful paperweights, were written by a self proclaimed wiccan as what seemed to me, to be a wiccan users guide to those pantheons.

I did say Crowley could have been involved in the creation of Wicca, and I see no reason why not. Gardner's wicca is so identical to some of crowley's work that I can't help believing it. Now, when I say Crowley was involved, and I do believe so, I'm not using it as an insult. Many wiccans just a few short years ago didn't like to claim Gardner as their founder, they simply gave him credit as a messenger. Now that Gardner is recognized for his work, nobody wants to recognize Uncle Al?

Deb, I will gladly change my mind of you have some bit of info I'm unaware of ...but those rituals Gardner used smell just like watered down thelema, with some tantric overtones: ala Crowley.

Still witnessing a ten foot jesus in tulsa ohklahoma, :fpraise:
--Kaos

[cartweel]

Alright, so I do label myself as an eclectic Wiccan. I agree that one of the most important influences on these stereotypes and their perception by Wiccans is time.

Skill, knowledge, wisdom, all of these things take time. You can't expect everyone to have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything Wiccan when they are just starting down that road. Sometimes, what comes off as "fluff" may simply be a lack of experience. I've only been practicing for a little over a year (hell, I didn't even know Wicca existed until two years ago) and sometimes I'll say or do something that probably isn't at par with those who have been doing this forever. Someone will always kindly correct me, though, and I'll learn from my mistakes. New Wiccans might not always have access to certain resources, too. Today many new Wiccans don't have immediate access to a coven (ala EbonyMyst) or even other Wiccans in general, for example. These trial and error experiences along with ongoing study and evaluation are what makes a Wiccan...well, Wiccan.

So don't condem those new to the path for messing up or being a little less well-informed; be sure to help them on their journey. It takes patience, hard work, and time.

((And wow, an entire new page came up while I was typing this! Edited due to that fact.))

[EbonyMyst]

Cartweel, I did not have 'immediate access' to a coven, I too started out reading books.

[kaosxmage]

Kaosmage, you are just too cool for school :hahugh: I like you, young man (see, I can be just as patronising as youth lol! NO, I DON'T MEAN YOU! I mean the twerp who dared to cross me on another board. Damned upstart! :razz: )

Thank ya, Thank ya very much. You're not so bad yourself! LOL

I just can't believe I found myself in a wiccan discussion :bangyourh

At any rate ...must go to class now, and read ...oh dear god no ...books! :bangyourh

Much love,
--Kaos

[cartweel]

Cartweel, I did not have 'immediate access' to a coven, I too started out reading books.

You're right. Immediate was the wrong word- I should have said 'reliable access' to a coven (or any other group of Pagans or Wiccans, such as MW here) for materials and probing questions that they might not think of on their own. I should have stressed that.

((See, there's that experience thing I'm talking about! Mental note: be specific!))

[Moonstoned]

Thank ya, Thank ya very much. You're not so bad yourself! LOL

I just can't believe I found myself in a wiccan discussion :bangyourh

At any rate ...must go to class now, and read ...oh dear god no ...books! :bangyourh

Much love,
--Kaos

Books? FEED ME!! :drool:

Thanks for notice about site instead/as well as books, I have had a look. I am a little perturbed, some of this stuff seems very complicated. Although no dolt I do have a little trouble understanding some chaotes I have seen. :ggrief: Are you all super-intelligent? Scary :goodgrief

You found yourself in a Wiccan discussion and I very nearly posted something on the Gods and Goddesses thread. We're lost ..... lost I tell you.

Actually, I am quite. I keep trying to belong to a particular path (sad and needy, looking for a group and a label) but a lot appeals. What say you to my being a trad- witch chaote? Is that workable?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ben, don't you think that there are both types in the group? As well as those like yourself and DebLipp who know exactly what they are talking about and have got their Wiccan facts straight?

Every religion has flakes and dogmatic types in doesn't it? It isn't fair to pick on Wicca as being the only one. I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that both types don't exist in the group.
I do think that those types are represented in Wicca - what I don't understand is the belief that those types are *representative* of Wicca, and that folks like Deb and I are the exceptions.

In my opinion, the flakes and the dogmatics are the extremists of Wicca, the equivalent of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists - loud, but representing a smaller percentage of the religion than one might think.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I did say Crowley could have been involved in the creation of Wicca, and I see no reason why not. Gardner's wicca is so identical to some of crowley's work that I can't help believing it. Now, when I say Crowley was involved, and I do believe so, I'm not using it as an insult. Many wiccans just a few short years ago didn't like to claim Gardner as their founder, they simply gave him credit as a messenger. Now that Gardner is recognized for his work, nobody wants to recognize Uncle Al?
You can put that thought out of your mind. Uncle Al *meticulously* recorded his comings and goings in his journals -- he records one meeting with Gardner, right near the end of his life (1946, I think?) They briefly discussed the OTO, and that was basically it. Crowley expressed no interest in Wicca and never wrote about it in his journals.

What IS true, however, is that Gardner appropriated much of the text of early Wiccan rituals from existing (published) Crowley texts. Gardnerian was much more of an idea man than a wordsmith, so he simply borrowed a bunch of Crowley's words. This bothered Doreen Valiente, his High Priestess in the 1950s (because of the plagiarism, not the content), and she set about systematically removing a great deal of Crowley's text and writing her own.

I recognize Crowley for a number of things, including unknowingly lending his pen to a number of early Wiccan rituals. But he was not involved in the formation of the religion.

[Moonstoned]

I do think that those types are represented in Wicca - what I don't understand is the belief that those types are *representative* of Wicca, and that folks like Deb and I are the exceptions.

In my opinion, the flakes and the dogmatics are the extremists of Wicca, the equivalent of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists - loud, but representing a smaller percentage of the religion than one might think.

Ben, I totally agree with you.

We see a lot of the fluffier stuff (not knocking it, don't want to knock anyone's way of doing things, we only need a prescription if we are following a certain path, like Gardnerian or Alexandrian - hope I have that right, I don't know very much about Wicca) because it is fashionable at the moment. Magic books are everywhere and so it is IN YOUR FACE, the lighter side of it. Films as well. We can't get away from that side right now. So, it is seen as representative.

I don't see so much of the dogmatic stereotype being pedalled so can't really comment. You are talking about the Gardnerian Witches? Yep, that's the type that leapt on me on another board.

Oh, I am tired and not good at debate anyway, I probably shouldn't be here. I think that my only suggestion as to why this is happening is that along with the 'noise' coming from the fashionable side of Wicca is the noise of fundamentalism, as you say. Fundies always make one hell of a lot of noise, it's what they do. It is probably hurting MOR Wiccans to be the 'silent majority'.

Hope I made even a little sense.

[DebLipp]

Deb,

Conway is often singled out because it's a short name. Celtic Magic and Norse Magic, two wonderful paperweights, were written by a self proclaimed wiccan as what seemed to me, to be a wiccan users guide to those pantheons.

I did say Crowley could have been involved in the creation of Wicca, and I see no reason why not. Gardner's wicca is so identical to some of crowley's work that I can't help believing it. Now, when I say Crowley was involved, and I do believe so, I'm not using it as an insult. Many wiccans just a few short years ago didn't like to claim Gardner as their founder, they simply gave him credit as a messenger. Now that Gardner is recognized for his work, nobody wants to recognize Uncle Al?

Deb, I will gladly change my mind of you have some bit of info I'm unaware of ...but those rituals Gardner used smell just like watered down thelema, with some tantric overtones: ala Crowley.

Still witnessing a ten foot jesus in tulsa ohklahoma, :fpraise:
--Kaos

I was taught Wicca 20 years ago, and at that time, most of the books in print still said GBG was initiated into the New Forest coven blah blah. But even then my teacher (a Gardnerian) said "maybe, maybe not." It was CLEARLY said, way back then, and earlier, that whatever GBG did or did not receive from the New Forest coven, he was not allowed to transmit it, and so he created something new. He says this in his own books, upon careful reading.

There is so much crap out there. There's Wiccan crap. There's UNBELIEVABLE rune/Norse crap. There's HORRIBLE Celtic/Druid crap (12 Lessons of Merlin, anyone?). There's MASSIVE amounts of CM crap. Crap publishing will always find a way. I just don't understand why Wiccans are identified by their crap, wheras Asatru is considered legit and the crap is considered the exception.

As to the Crowley/Gardner connection...

GBG was a Mason and a co-Mason, had traveled all over the world, was familiar with African magical religions, was a GD initiate, a Druid initiate, and an OTO initiate. That's all well-established and the initiation papers and certificates are in his personal effects; the James's collection has much of it. There is no doubt that ALL of these were influential on the creation of Gardner's Wicca. The specific connection that everyone cites, the one and only source that started all the rumors that Crowley was the "true" author of GBG's BOS, comes from Francis King. Ronald Hutton does a good job of showing that a cross-reference of King's claims with Crowley's diaries disproves King.

[cartweel]

I do think that those types are represented in Wicca - what I don't understand is the belief that those types are *representative* of Wicca, and that folks like Deb and I are the exceptions.

In my opinion, the flakes and the dogmatics are the extremists of Wicca, the equivalent of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists - loud, but representing a smaller percentage of the religion than one might think.

*nods in agreement* :uhhuhuh:

[kaosxmage]

For Ben and Deb,

Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear, as now that I've read your responses we are all in more agreement. When I stated that Crowley had a hand in Wicca's early days, perhaps I shouldn't have insinuated that it was a direct hand. Crowley's work, as Ben stated, is evident ...whther it's borowing or whatever. I personally believe that Crowley's work, and the patterns of the O.T.O. and Golden Dawn were a heavy influence in the formation of Wicca. Bud Light is a softer alternative to Budweiser, and I tend to think of Wicca as Thelema Light ...in it's younger years. Since then, Wicca has grown into a much bolder a more purposeful spiritual path than that. I've even noticed that many Wiccans have adopted polytheistic views, as opposed to dualistic, which is honeslty a big surprise to me. But that's off point.

Deb, you are quite correct that Wicca catches the biggest load when it comes to criticism, but that's the nature of being a front runner. Wicca is out there in everyone's face, you have to be blind to miss it. With it's nature of fast growth, it brings all types, and as usual the loudest mouthpieces of the faith will be the least experienced. An unfortunate side effect of every branch. Every path has its shams, and crap will always be published. The biggest need for Wiccans at large (my opinion) is organization, and perhaps a professional clergy ...another debate entirely.

How you like them apples,
--Kaos

[Ben Trismegistus]

Thanks Kaos -- excellent response.

[Ben Gruagach]

Philip Heselton does an excellent job documenting the influences on Gardner (including Gardner's involvement with Crowley) in his book "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration."

Personally I think we have a bit of a shortage of respectable elders in Wicca (and also in many of the non-Wiccan Pagan religions.) There are a lot of people who have been involved for a couple of years, who maybe have helped run groups or who have started groups up themselves, who teach newcomers, and maybe even have written books. But despite all that it's still the rare one who models mature behaviour.

To me, mature behaviour means being respectful of others including those who are new to the community. It means being patient and polite when you're asked the same basic questions for the millionth time.

It means not just parroting the spiritual philosophy but living it and demonstrating it in daily life... even when there aren't other people around watching.

It means that instead of badmouthing others as being "fluffy", that energy is spent on trying to live up to the following ideals (at least for Wiccans):
...let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you.

I'm sure there are similar ideals in other Pagan paths to work towards. It's a shame people spend so much time on being politically correct and holier-than-thou instead of trying to work towards their particular paths' ideals.

We're only human but we can surely do better! Other spiritual paths mature past these petty squabbles and are filled with elders who are worthy of respect. Wiccans and other Pagans can do it too.

[kaosxmage]

Books? FEED ME!! :drool:

Thanks for notice about site instead/as well as books, I have had a look. I am a little perturbed, some of this stuff seems very complicated. Although no dolt I do have a little trouble understanding some chaotes I have seen. :ggrief: Are you all super-intelligent? Scary :goodgrief

You found yourself in a Wiccan discussion and I very nearly posted something on the Gods and Goddesses thread. We're lost ..... lost I tell you.

Actually, I am quite. I keep trying to belong to a particular path (sad and needy, looking for a group and a label) but a lot appeals. What say you to my being a trad- witch chaote? Is that workable?

Moonstoned,

It's quite workable. As much as many chaotes want so desperately to claim that chaos magick is not a path unto itself, that it's only a meta paradigm, I just don't buy it. CM offers tenets, guidelines, technique ...but it does blend so well with everything. The main tenet of all CM is, "Does it work?" Even a trad-witch should be asking themselves that simple question. What is your will?

Living without labels is quite ok as well. I mean, I belobg to not one specific path, but walk a bit of my own straight up the middle. I used to work myself into a frenzy trying to place a name on it, then I decided I'm simply a Mage, or philosopher, or both. Have compassion and learn all you can, remember that you're a part of everything else, never alone, and you'll do just fine ...just remember to laugh. Nuff said.

:strike:
--Kaos

[Erebus]

It occurs to me that most of the "fluffy" perception with regards to Wiccans is due to a large number of teenagers hiding from their parents and reading Buckland's Big Blue Book of BS (and other BS) without a working BS filter.

If we made it so all Wicca books were rated R and had to have parental permission to be bought, and kicked all the self-initiated 15-year-old Lady Unicornmoon's out of the community at large until they grow up, the fluffy quotient would drop dramatically.

I mean, I know some older fluffies, but around 20 or so the ratio gets orders of magnitude better.

And just to head off all the indignant teenagers posting and wanting me to except them from this statement:

YES, IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, I MEAN YOU TOO. YOU AND YOUR PEERS HAVE TURNED WICCA INTO A TEENAGE GIRL FAD INSTEAD OF A SERIOUS RELIGION. MOST OF YOU WILL GROW OUT OF IT ENTIRELY. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS MADE FOR ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF MAJORITY.

[Grey]

And just to head off all the indignant teenagers posting and wanting me to except them from this statement:

YES, IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, I MEAN YOU TOO. YOU AND YOUR PEERS HAVE TURNED WICCA INTO A TEENAGE GIRL FAD INSTEAD OF A SERIOUS RELIGION. MOST OF YOU WILL GROW OUT OF IT ENTIRELY. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS MADE FOR ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF MAJORITY.

Agreed. The reason I occiasionally look down on people that claim to be wiccan is simply because you cant tell without having met and discussed with that person just how serious they are.
Now I know alot of folks say things like "who are you to tell me thats not wicca?" or seem to think that Im being a stodgy pain in the rear if I tell them that what they just said has about as much weight to it as a bag of marshmellows... but so often it is. I dont expect a 16 year old to know as much about wicca as the pope does about catholicism to be sure, but a little quality would be appreciated.

The problem is that teens that have no idea what they are, but want to look into the pagan scene cant seem to just say "Im looking around" they feel the need to validate their practice and so they borrow the name of wicca for there own. Its a shame, but with so many of them out there youd be a fool not to recognize this trend.

As for the Hard ended ceremonial stereotype... I never really baught into that as a wiccan stereotype. However I admit that Its something that pops up when I hear "gardnerian". Thats a personal hangup of mine mainly due to the fact that Ive only met 3 gardnerian wiccans, all of whom were in their early thirties and fit that stereotype.

[Ben Gruagach]

And just to head off all the indignant teenagers posting and wanting me to except them from this statement:

YES, IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, I MEAN YOU TOO. YOU AND YOUR PEERS HAVE TURNED WICCA INTO A TEENAGE GIRL FAD INSTEAD OF A SERIOUS RELIGION. MOST OF YOU WILL GROW OUT OF IT ENTIRELY. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS MADE FOR ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF MAJORITY.

Sorry, I don't agree. And I'm thirty-seven (and a Wiccan for many many years.)

Newcomers learn respect by observing how their supposed "elders" behave. What sort of example do we set by disrespecting people based on their age or their presumed degree of involvement in a spiritual path?

[docdoo]

I see Erebus's point as well, I have to say that it seems like there are tons of teens who want to be Wiccan but have absolutely zero desire to research and get their facts straight.

In all honesty, how often do we see threads like this 'I'm new, teach me everything you know' When someone *gasp* tells them to go and check out a book they're full of excuses and things like 'Yeah, well....I don't want my parents to know so I want you to tell me everything in one short post'

As to the flaky bit...well, it's a sad fact that Paganism, by it's very nature, tends to 'put up' with people who claim the most insane things. For example, when someone starts a thread talking about some outlandish from-left-field story the first person who actually questions the story with disbelief is immediatly yelled at by the rest of the community.

There seems to be this across the board belief in anything that anyone claims or says. I have to say, this makes paganism a haven for attention seekers, wanna be D&D masters, and children who's imagination outweighs their good sense.

[Erebus]

Newcomers learn respect by observing how their supposed "elders" behave. What sort of example do we set by disrespecting people based on their age or their presumed degree of involvement in a spiritual path?

The same example we set by disrespecting kids who sneak into R-rated movies, drink beer, and trying to drive the family car without permission. In short, there are simply some things that children have no business doing, and claiming a new religious path (especially when they have to hide it from authority figures) is one of them. How many 15 year olds even know half the tenets of the religion they were RAISED in, much less one they saw someone talk about on the internet and can't even safely read a book about?

[Athena-Nadine]

The same example we set by disrespecting kids who sneak into R-rated movies, drink beer, and trying to drive the family car without permission. In short, there are simply some things that children have no business doing, and claiming a new religious path (especially when they have to hide it from authority figures) is one of them. How many 15 year olds even know half the tenets of the religion they were RAISED in, much less one they saw someone talk about on the internet and can't even safely read a book about?
*...nods...* Until I came to this site, the only Wiccans I knew believed that it was unethical to teach minors about the religion without the knowledge and permission of their parents. Otherwise, they were all told to wait until they reached their legal ages. Parents who are firmly against their children having anything to do with Wicca, no matter how ignorant, can cause serious problems for people teaching their children against their wishes, including legal trouble. I still can't believe how many times I see people here giving teens advice about how to hide their religious studies/practices from their parents. It never ceases to shock me when I see it.

[docdoo]

*nodnod* Agreed wholeheartedly. Of course, I am of the view that if you're not adult enough, or responsible enough to NOT be ashamed of your religion (or be afraid of 'getting in trouble') Then you're probably not mature enough to choose a religion.

Granted this view gets me into trouble but until someone can convince me otherwise I still contend that if a person isn't mature enough to deal with their circle of people by being honest and open with them then they're not mature enough to make such a lifechanging decision in the first place.

[Asthmorte]

It occurs to me that most of the "fluffy" perception with regards to Wiccans is due to a large number of teenagers hiding from their parents and reading Buckland's Big Blue Book of BS (and other BS) without a working BS filter.

If we made it so all Wicca books were rated R and had to have parental permission to be bought, and kicked all the self-initiated 15-year-old Lady Unicornmoon's out of the community at large until they grow up, the fluffy quotient would drop dramatically.

I mean, I know some older fluffies, but around 20 or so the ratio gets orders of magnitude better.

And just to head off all the indignant teenagers posting and wanting me to except them from this statement:

YES, IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, I MEAN YOU TOO. YOU AND YOUR PEERS HAVE TURNED WICCA INTO A TEENAGE GIRL FAD INSTEAD OF A SERIOUS RELIGION. MOST OF YOU WILL GROW OUT OF IT ENTIRELY. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS MADE FOR ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF MAJORITY.


first off, Im not wiccan, but pagan. It was no 'trend' that drew me to this path, but the goddess rhiannon came to me in a dream. I'd never even heard of wicca before even. I dont claim to be some know it all expert, but simply accept my journey into the craft. Perhaps you should judge by situation, rather than what you think you see in your mind.

Em Hotep

[Erebus]

first off, Im not wiccan, but pagan. It was no 'trend' that drew me to this path, but the goddess rhiannon came to me in a dream. I'd never even heard of wicca before even. I dont claim to be some know it all expert, but simply accept my journey into the craft. Perhaps you should judge by situation, rather than what you think you see in your mind.

Em Hotep

Do you hide your path from your parents?

If so, I don't care if the Easter Bunny and Bodhisavatta Quan Yin came and did the tango in your head on a bad trip, you still qualify under my "you and your peers are ruining the reputation of paganism (insofar as it still has a reputation to ruin)" rant.

[misschief]

i'm not wiccan.. but i was for a little while. and honestly, it was a trend thing for me. i grew out of it. i agree with everyone who said it's fluff because of the teenagers. bad as it sounds... i do think that way sometimes, and then re-direct myself.that isn't to be taken as 'wicca is fluff', that's not what i think or what i'm saying. after the 'hey i'm wiccan' phase.. i fell back into the craft i started as a child. *shrug* but hey.. if it's what you like and believe whether you are 14 or 85.. do it

[Fideal]

YES, IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, I MEAN YOU TOO. YOU AND YOUR PEERS HAVE TURNED WICCA INTO A TEENAGE GIRL FAD INSTEAD OF A SERIOUS RELIGION. MOST OF YOU WILL GROW OUT OF IT ENTIRELY. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS MADE FOR ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF MAJORITY.

Does this count for other pagan religions too? I'm 15, but I think I have a pretty stable hold on my beliefs. I don't hide it, no reason to really. I don't think I'll grow out of it, but I guess I can't say until I'm 18 and magically get judgement.

Back on topic, I've never really seen Wicca as your #2 reason. I do tend to think of Wicca as fluffy. Well, not Wicca, persay, but Wiccans. Especially the ones don't seem to able to do reasearch on anything, and combine tradions that they know nothing about. I wish I didn't have this leaning, as I know people like you and DebLipp, and others are serious and intelligent, though you guys do seem to be a minority unfortunatly.

I don't really have a solution, except to maybe as someone else said make the books unavailable to minors. If their parents are Wiccan, they can be taught by them. But then it's easy for me to say, because I don't really buy books from the New Age section as much as the history and folklore section.

[Asthmorte]

Do you hide your path from your parents?

If so, I don't care if the Easter Bunny and Bodhisavatta Quan Yin came and did the tango in your head on a bad trip, you still qualify under my "you and your peers are ruining the reputation of paganism (insofar as it still has a reputation to ruin)" rant.

no, I do not hide it from my parents. I actually enjoy teaching pagan holidays to them, and we have respect for each other's religions.

[Seren_]

To a certain extent I think Wicca gets a bad press, which is a shame, I think. But then, IMHO, as the "biggest" or most "out there" pagan path (or whatever you call it), it's bound to get a lot of flack and negative press. "Size" makes an easy target. Size matters.

A lot of people I see on various boards speak as a "former Wiccan", myself included. For me, I was attracted to Wicca because a) I met a Wiccan who I respected greatly and connected with (including her beliefs) and b) for more personal reasons like it was an alternative spirituality which allowed more "control" than other religions I'd encountered at the time - which I can say retrospecively, if you see what I mean. I was looking for something, and at the time Wicca seemed to provide it. And it was more accessible; which is ironic, really, considering I ended up in an "uber"-Gardnerian coven...

I realise now that Wicca wasn't for me, and that I was attracted to it for the wrong reasons...magic, convenience, whatever. The same story for a lot of people, probably. But all the same I explored my new path, took it very seriously and was lucky enough to eventually find a coven and was initiated into it and I learned a lot about...pretty much everything; but I have to say my High Priestess in particular displayed the snobbery and scoffing that Ben T describes. Because I'd only read about Wicca, and she'd been coven-taught, I was a fluffy-bunny. So I could join a coven, or couldn't claim the title of "Wiccan". Needless to say, my experience of Wicca fits largely into the "number 2" description that Ben T describes...in many negative, as well as positive ways. Mostly negative, in more ways than I've described here, but which I don't see as being the norm amongst other Wiccans...

On some boards I see a lot of newbies asking questions, sometimes with a certain naive point of view fed by books (and I can certainly relate to that, way back when), and a lot of the more established or experienced folks respond in a fairly cynical, defensive way, perhaps assuming that most people attracted to Wicca are only reallt attracted to the spells rather than the religion.

I think this is largely what causes the division between the "fluffies" and the "stuffies"; and to a certain extent some people are probably right. It's unfortunate that this negative attitude is applied wholesale, especially when people define a religion by the books that are written about it. It's not true, and personally speaking although no longer defining myself as a Wiccan, I respect a lot of the people I talk to on boards - especially this one. As with everyone else here, that is.

I have to say from my own experiences of modern Paganism in my country, rather than just Wicca, I can totally relate to Ben T's concerns; but also in a more specific sense. From a media point of view, only the more "wacky" stories ever get told about Pagans - people going nekkid, orgies etc. Or like recently, a stone circle near where I live, called the Rollrights, was vandalised by a group of people who chucked a load of yellow paint all over the stones. In Britain, or England at least (Scotland is different), we have no rights to call our beliefs a religion; we are a spirituality at best.

The vandalism not only destroyed the history/archaeology of the site, but also some unique and valuable lichen in an environmental sense. But it seems that only the "green" pagans were bothered, because suddenly there was a story about a bunch of druids/pagans performing a ceremony in the circle to ensure the culprit was caught....needless to say, whether their rite worked or not has not been reported on, as far as I know. And as far as I know, nobody has yet been arrested for it.

[Ben Gruagach]

Do you hide your path from your parents?

If so, I don't care if the Easter Bunny and Bodhisavatta Quan Yin came and did the tango in your head on a bad trip, you still qualify under my "you and your peers are ruining the reputation of paganism (insofar as it still has a reputation to ruin)" rant.

That's an awfully broad generalization to use to condemn people.

There are many adult Pagans who are "in the broom closet" about their faith with the rest of their families, including their parents.

Are they all "fluffy" because they choose to not be out to some arbitrary group of people you've picked? What if they've been practicing their spiritual path for decades but haven't come out of the broom closet yet?

I still fail to see how any of this sort of sweeping condemnation of others represents admirable behaviour to respect. How can we expect the younger generations to respect us if we don't demonstrate that behaviour to them?

[Seren_]

Arg...Suddenly there are about two pages more here than when I posted...

[Asthmorte]

Ive seen mentioned that many are only attracted to wicca and similar religious for the spells and magicky type stuff. Personally, I prefer not to use spells. I do very rarely, but its usually something small. Spells and working magick is in no way a religion. The beliefs are where the religion rests.

[Ben Gruagach]

Ive seen mentioned that many are only attracted to wicca and similar religious for the spells and magicky type stuff. Personally, I prefer not to use spells. I do very rarely, but its usually something small. Spells and working magick is in no way a religion. The beliefs are where the religion rests.

I wonder how much of that opinion is really Wiccan and Pagan, and how much of it comes from monotheistic thinking.

As a Wiccan, I am of the opinion that the Divine is both immanent and transcendant. Immanent means that the Divine exists in everything here in the physical realm -- the Earth really is the body of the Goddess/God. Transcendant because I believe that there is some sort of nonphysical realm out there too, and the Divine exists there as well.

Since the Divine is immanent I consider it my responsibility to do what I can to honour the physical realm too. The idea that we should look down on physical or mundane things in favour of just the invisible realms is something that other religions might believe but it's not part of my philosophy.

That's why I consider doing magick to be central to my spiritual path. I also consider doing mundane things which try to make things better and honour the Divine in some way to be central to my spiritual path. If I ignore the physical realm to put all my spiritual attention on the nonphysical then I'm ignoring half of the Divine. And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Getting back to the topic of attitudes and opinions and perceptions of Wiccans and Pagans, it doesn't surprise me that outsiders might have a poor opinion of us. After all, look at how well we're doing at respecting each other within our own community! We call each other names, sneer down our noses at people we think are tarnishing our good reputation. We aren't doing a very good job of practicing what we are supposedly preaching. And even outsiders can see that.

As a good comparison I like to recommend people look at the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered community. Only a couple of decades ago (like back in the 1980s when I was in university and first came out in the gay community) there were a lot of the exact same arguments going on in the queer community. People fussed over the "undesirables" being seen to represent us. But thankfully the community matured past that. I'm sure there are similar problems elsewhere as the queer community is far from homogenous around the world. But at least in Canada, where I grew up and lived until recently, the queer community has come to embrace the glorious diversity including all the previously-deemed "undesirables" such as drag queens and stereotypical types and you know what? The community is stronger for it.

These are growing pains, people, and we will grow past them. But we have to recognize that some attitudes are immature and need to be outgrown. As the community becomes even more established I suspect we'll grow past these problems just as other communities have.

[Erebus]

Vampric: If you didn't fall into any of the categories I mentioned above, why are you getting so defensive?

And out of curiosity, can you read the following (esp. the underlined portions) and honestly, with a straight face, say it DOESN'T contribute to a negative pagan stereotype amongst the general public, especially coming from a 14-year-old?


Profile: um...Im Destiny....heh....Im slightly insane and people are scared of me...dunno why.....*scratches head*....hmm...Im a poet...and artist...I try to play guitar, but I suck.....uh...yeah..Im a kemetic pagan..and orgies are cool.....
Likes: mohawks....handcuffs....guitars....razorblades...broken glass....sex...drugs...heavy metal...death metal...speed metal...thrash metal...music....older men...pain...blood....loud noises...sharp objects......my boyfriend...

[Erebus]

That's an awfully broad generalization to use to condemn people.

There are many adult Pagans who are "in the broom closet" about their faith with the rest of their families, including their parents.

If you are not mature enough to take responsibility and own up to your own beliefs, you're not mature enough to be trusted not to reinforce negative stereotypes.

It's the same principle that leads blood banks to refuse donations from homosexual males in America. Sure, not all gay men have AIDS, but statistically it eliminates far more bad pints than it keeps out good pints.

[Asthmorte]

Vampric: If you didn't fall into any of the categories I mentioned above, why are you getting so defensive?

And out of curiosity, can you read the following and honestly, with a straight face, say it DOESN'T contribute to a negative pagan stereotype amongst the general public, especially coming from a 14-year-old?

what do my likes and dislikes have to do with religion? religion is not personality, and personality is not religion.

defensive....Im getting defensive, because I know several wiccans who are decent, even though they are under 18. I dont appreciate bad words being said about them. I know everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, but I would prefer if you open your mind up a bit. It would benefit both the public, and your own well being. sorry if I come across bitchy, Im really not trying to. Please dont drag my own personal problems into this, for that is something that only I can change. All I want is respect, because Im not fluffy at all(though my hair is a bit fuzzy, so maybe you can say Im fuzzy..). Many teens are 'fluffy', but thats thier own business. If you care about it so much, then you have a problem. how your own religion is viewed should not matter. . I dont know you, and you dont know me, so we cant exactly make judgments on each other.

[Erebus]

what do my likes and dislikes have to do with religion? religion is not personality, and personality is not religion.

They fall into a stereotype of the angsty goth teen pagan, which is what most of the general public thinks of when they think of "teenage pagan" anyway. You agree that's one of the really big, really negative stereotypes, right? You're just falling into the very thing that causes the general public to think of paganism in general as a rebellion fad that a kid eventually grows out of.

[Asthmorte]

They fall into a stereotype of the angsty goth teen pagan, which is what most of the general public thinks of when they think of "teenage pagan" anyway. You agree that's one of the really big, really negative stereotypes, right?

I hardly consider myself 'goth'. I mean, blonde hair/blue eyes? come on....

as for the angsty part....please leave my personal problems out of this. unfortuantely Im going through all those crappy 'hormonal' things, which I often fail to control.

yes, that is a negative stereotype. but anyone who labels someone that should actually get to know the person first. and if they label me that, then fine, more power to them, I 'll disagree with it, but in the end it shall have a very minimal effect on my life.

and I assure you I will not grow out of my religion. contact me in 20 years, and we can talk....

[Grey]

Ive seen mentioned that many are only attracted to wicca and similar religious for the spells and magicky type stuff. Personally, I prefer not to use spells. I do very rarely, but its usually something small. Spells and working magick is in no way a religion. The beliefs are where the religion rests.

Strait shootin. Ive helped alot of people change religions and this is something I have to stress every single time somone comes to me about a pagan religion, wicca or no.

[Grey]

what do my likes and dislikes have to do with religion? religion is not personality, and personality is not religion.

Unfortuneatly it has EVERYTHING to do with religion. If Satanists went around opening up soup kitchens and helping the needy theyd have a whole differrant stereotype. The people that make up a religion determine how people see it- simple as it gets.

[Grey]

I hardly consider myself 'goth'. I mean, blonde hair/blue eyes? come on....

***

and I assure you I will not grow out of my religion. contact me in 20 years, and we can talk....

And your profile is that of a goth... remember its an attitude NOT a clothing style. They just often tend to match up.

As for your religion, I have every faith youll stay the course, and I wish you the best of luck in all endeavors.

[cartweel]

If you are not mature enough to take responsibility and own up to your own beliefs, you're not mature enough to be trusted not to reinforce negative stereotypes.

So you believe that people hide their beliefs from others only because of irresponsibility and a lack of maturity?

What about real, physical DANGERS that could come from being out of the 'broom closet'? I like Ben G's analogy: Pagan is the new Gay. Pagans are in constant threat of persicution, judgement, and physical or emotional abuse. Don't think that I'm getting this from left field- here in the Bible Belt, "******s" still get run out of town at gunpoint. Gays are thrown out of school and beaten by football teams. For a Pagan, that threat is no less real.

Other less noticeable dangers also exist. One could lose their job. They could lose funding for their education (my main concern). They could be disowned by their families.

Do NOT presume that shame is what keeps people in hiding. If given a choice, I and countless others would revel in the opportunity to wear our beliefs on our shirt-sleeve. It's simply NOT an option right now.
~

And on your point about the validity of young Wiccans; you're simply pigeonholing again. Not every fifteen-year-old Wiccan has only read "Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner" and hoped onboard the "Pagan band-wagon". Some do conduct strenuous research, check their sources and truely and firmly believe in their... beliefs. I strongly BELIEVE that if one stereotype is held as valid that all stereotypes must then be valid. If every teen Wiccan is a "fluff" who doesn't understand THEIR OWN path, then every Queer must be a flaming dragqueen and every Wiccan must be worshipping Satan.

Again, having parental consent is sometimes simply not an option. If the Goddess called to you would you wait three years to be able to answer? Of course not.

[docdoo]

No, perhaps I wouldn't but conversely if you're hiding your religion as though it were some sort of disease from your FAMILY then you're not mature enough to choose your own religion.

Sorry, but nobody will convince me otherwise on this. I can see hiding it from your co-workers, bosses etc. But if you have to stay in the closet and hide what you life path is then maybe you're on the wrong path.

[Erebus]

So you believe that people hide their beliefs from others only because of irresponsibility and a lack of maturity?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.


What about real, physical DANGERS that could come from being out of the 'broom closet'?

That's part of taking responsibility for what you believe in.

It's also a horribly overhyped "danger" that almost no pagan in modern times (or, hell, even during the Burning Times!) has had to deal with.


Pagan is the new Gay.

Comparing Pagan to Gay with reference to the amount of violence perpetrated on the minority is a vast insult to the homosexual rights movement. It's like saying Gay is the new Jew.


Pagans are in constant threat of persicution, judgement, and physical or emotional abuse.

:rolleyes: Of course they are.

Ever notice how nearly all the pagans who use this excuse have never actually experienced any of the persecution they're so afraid of?


Don't think that I'm getting this from left field- here in the Bible Belt, "******s" still get run out of town at gunpoint.

(A) Prove it
(B) So now pagans are the new Blacks too? Jesus, how hyperbolic can you possibly get??


Gays are thrown out of school and beaten by football teams.

Again, prove it.


For a Pagan, that threat is no less real.

I sincerely doubt it. I'd love some evidence to prove me wrong, though. Preferably from within the last 5 years or so.


Other less noticeable dangers also exist. One could lose their job.

And that happens all the time too, I'm sure. I'd love someone to do this to me. They'd make me a very, very rich man.


They could lose funding for their education (my main concern). They could be disowned by their families.

All of which is about taking responsibility for your choices. Your convenience is more important than your religion at the moment (as in, you don't want to have to risk getting a student loan to support your education, you'd rather hide and let daddy do it). How can you expect us to take you seriously with that kind of attitude?

Furthermore, how many parents REALLY disown their pagan kids? I've known one - out of about seven who claimed it as a real fear and found out later it wasn't a big deal at all.


Do NOT presume that shame is what keeps people in hiding. If given a choice, I and countless others would revel in the opportunity to wear our beliefs on our shirt-sleeve. It's simply NOT an option right now.

No, because you have higher priorities than honesty, pride, personal responsibility, and respect for a religious path.


Again, having parental consent is sometimes simply not an option. If the Goddess called to you would you wait three years to be able to answer? Of course not.

If the Goddess called to you, she knows exactly how long it'll be before you answer her. You spend three years waiting, or you spend three years half-ass-ed-ly answering her - the end result is probably the same, and the latter course of action turns you into a reinforcement of one of the negative pagan stereotypes that we're discussing in this very thread.

[docdoo]

*bows to the King* You said it perfectly Erebus.

[Grey]

*shakes head* I live in the "bible belt" There is about 1 church to every 500 people here. A christian book store exists in most towns, and mormonism has a huge following, the only rival for the sundered xtian groups.

I had one girl that wouldnt date me cause I was pagan and her parents would freak out about it, and sometimes I say things and people roll their eyes because it doesnt match up with their dogma. Thats the extent of the "persecution" that Ive faced.

Just like with drugs, most of its in the heads of the the individual, the druggy *or in this case spooky christian majority* rarely gives a damn if your with it or not.

About once a month someone makes a half hearted conversion attempt. Its that way because for the past 4 years Ive explained time and time again without contradicting myself or failing to answer with a well thought response. *shakes head* People respect me for that, even if they burn harry potter books on halloween.

[ObsidianShenKa]

First off, Ben, the last thing Wicca needs to do is up its "outreach". That will only do more harm than good.

Secondly, Erebus is right. Angsty gothy teens are ruining Wicca for the rest of us. Hence why I'm no longer Wiccan. I grew out of wicca right along with the angsty goth teen thing a few months after turning 20. I still dress the part for concerts, but that's because my target audience is angsty goth teens that I can hopefully temper a bit early and spare humanity their ignorant pestilence for a spell.

Thirdly, it's not even that these teens are in their teenage years. After all, plenty of adult pagans are just as stupid, naïve and ignorant as their teenage counterparts and (sadly) peers. The difference between these runts and those like myself is exactly what makes a witch a witch: willpower. These people are lazy. They come from the instant-gratification generation. We get everything we want how we want it, NOW. We have more fast food chains than one can shake a stick at. We have ATMs that can pull any amount of small bills from anywhere in the world in the blink of an eye. We have cell phones that can keep us right smack dab in the middle of everything when we're right smack dab in the middle of BFE. We have high-speed internet now in places that fifteen years ago it was a rare sight to see someone with a television. On top of it, we still have the Goldilocks Economy mentality where we think we can do dick squat by starting up a dotcom and waiting for the money to roll in.

Face it. As a whole, HUMANITY IS LAZY. Absolutely lazy, to the point of decay.

And these lazy people lack the willpower to do anything for themselves.

And THAT above all is the reason that teenieboppers and fluffbunnies should be ejected from the ranks of Witchcraft.

Just like any other craft, only the serious need apply. And if the masters seek journeymen, they shall find the best man/woman for the job. And it ain't gonna be no fifteen-year-old high school antisocialite who listens to Korn in her daddy's basement and whines on the Internet about how she's going to kill herself to a bunch of other kiddies on a message board who could care less for her other than her clever avatar and cute signature.

See our point?

[Isil Darkmoon]

There is a difference in "actively hiding" or "denying", and just "failing to mention".

Honestly, no sarcasm intended, I can't wrap my head around the idea that it's anyone's business--even family--what I do in my private life.

To me, religion is private, and my business. I'll discuss it happily if it comes up, but I don't usually go around wearing a big neon sign advertising the fact I'm Pagan, either.

I don't see why it's nessecary to go up to someone and suddenly announce "oh, by the way..." just to be "legitimate". Even when I do wear a cutesy/smartarse pagan clothing item (I want the somethingpostive "Brighter Blessed than Thee" teeshirt!) out in public I don't go around drafting people into ritual on streetcorners or handing out pagan literature at the bus stop.

It just seems to me to be one of those things that's well... private. If asked point-blank about it, I won't deny it, and if it's relavent to conversation, sure. By all means, yes, then it's germane to the task at hand.

But I don't go around teling people "oh, I'm bisexual!" or "oh, I'm polyamorous!" at random; yet those are serious lifestyle choices that affect me day-to-day that were only arrived at after a great deal of soul-searching. But they're what I do at home, in private.

To me, religion is the same: 'no one's damn business except mine, unless I CHOOSE to share it with them." but there, *choose* is the key word. I'm not by any means *obligated* to, and I refuse to believe that choosing to be discrete about it makes my choices less valid simply because I don't wear my lables on my sleeve, or on my cleavage.

And with that incredibly incoherent post, because I am so damn tired, I shall away and let the bickering continue as I sleep.

[ObsidianShenKa]

Holy crap, that was stellar, Erby.

[Grey]

*nods* you dont pretend to be something your not though. That you dont parade yourself is to your credit as much as that you dont hide it either.

[cartweel]

You say I'm being hyperbolic- there's a reason. Pagan is the new Gay. Gay IS the new Jew or Black. Slaves, Women, the handicapped, the imperfect. They're all scapegoats that have existed throughout history. As long as there have been differences in people one group has tried to influence power over the other.

In my mind, experienced danger and imagined danger can be equally as devistating. If someone truely thought that, by revealing their beliefs, sexual orientation, GENDER, RACE, or INTELLIGENCE, a catestrophy would result, there doesn't need to be any REAL danger. That fear would be cause enough for the greatest of would-be-heroes to crumble.

They call it hyperbole (aren't puns wonderful??). Hyperbole is defined as "extravagent exaggeration" (Merriam-Webster) and that's what I'm using when I claim attack upon attack against different groups. I admit- not every small-town Pagan is going to come under attack. *Some WILL*. No matter how righteous anyone is, I'd like to see them take that chance. Even you, Erebus(*), would have a hard time facing the loss of everything. People have flaws and cannot be expected (though they should definately be encouraged) to succomb to martyrdom for the sake of their beliefs. Remember, out of the millions of Christians throughout history- there are few Saints.

So can you condem people for being people?
~~
(*) And no, to avoid a fist-fight, I'm not picking on you. I'm just saying that even ones firmly founded in their beliefs do not always act as they would like.

((And yes, Isil, you are completely and utterly right. Why do I have to legitimize myself?))

[Grey]

True, not everyone acts as they should. But thats no excuse to not act as we should. *shakes head* All it means is that we must try harder and do what we can to atone for our mistakes.

The christian religion had many matyrs in its early years before it gained acceptance, more than are recorded you can bet. They were willing to give it all up for their faith, how can you expect them to respect you unless you can match that sacfrice?
Or what of the buddhists that rot and die in Chinese jails rather than give up on their born faith?

They can be expected to die for their faith, to stand for their faith, or what is that faith worth?

And as for your scapegoat argument, are you trying to say that blacks gays and jews arent perfectly good people or are you just trying to say that people that dont conform to the bible belt arent perfect? Or perhaps just that those who do are perfect?

[Isil Darkmoon]

(A) Prove it
http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.death.02/
So speaketh the Texan. James Byrd Jr, several years ago, was dragged by a chain behind a truck and his body dumped in front of a mostly-black church. A lot of the 3 murderers' private correspondances contained lots of racial insinuations, threats, and epithets quite compatable with a "white supremist" attitude to which they had ties while previously in jail.

And even now, just this year... six years after the event:
http://www.thebatt.com/news/2004/05/07/NewsInBrief/Tombstone.Of.James.Byrd.Jr-679523.shtml
James Byrd's headstone was desecrated with racial epithets carved into the stone.




I sincerely doubt it. I'd love some evidence to prove me wrong, though. Preferably from within the last 5 years or so.
http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/3748843p-3355792c.html
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/9378079.htm
This seems like a pretty clear-cut case of religious persecution to me. No, it's not a threat to their physical person, but still, for many, pets are Family, and this is killing one of their own.


Furthermore, how many parents REALLY disown their pagan kids? I've known one - out of about seven who claimed it as a real fear and found out later it wasn't a big deal at all.
So, please share how your life changed when you told your parents about your path.


oh: also I HAVE suffered 'persecution' for my religion, more than once. Thankfully, no cases as extreme as having my pets murdered, but still--most abuse is smaller and more day-to-day than that, but that doesn't make it "right" in any case. Beating your kids for not obeying is still child abuse, even if it's not "as bad" as murdering them by duct-taping their mouths shut in a closet while they suffocate.

My psychotic ex-roommate who I've mentioned repatedly about would not have gone for me if I hadn't been pagan. (Ironically, she was pagan as well; she went after me BECAUSE I was a "magical" target. If I'd been a "muggle" so to speak she'd have found someone else to attack.)

I actually had what was supposed to be Holy Water thrown at me at a Pagan Pride event of all things. I was on my way to the ladies' room, away from the main building, and apparently was followed, and splashed and cursed at, logic being I was one of the youngest people there (at 18!) and still "impressionable" so I could be "saved" from my evil, sinner ways. I was never able to do anythign about it, legally, since no one else had seen it, and the person ducked away into a crowd of auction-going folks (an event in a differnet building on the same fairground.)

It's all relative... in more ways than one.

[cartweel]

True, not everyone acts as they should. But thats no excuse to not act as we should. *shakes head* All it means is that we must try harder and do what we can to atone for our mistakes.

True, it's not an excuse- that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Should we ignore someone if 'NO', they aren't going to die for their religion? No. We should nurture them.


The christian religion had many matyrs in its early years before it gained acceptance, more than are recorded you can bet. They were willing to give it all up for their faith, how can you expect them to respect you unless you can match that sacfrice?
Or what of the buddhists that rot and die in Chinese jails rather than give up on their born faith?

How can I "expect them to respect [me] unless [I] can match that sacrifice?" By showing that to me, living the faith is more important than dying for the faith.


And as for your scapegoat argument, are you trying to say that blacks gays and jews arent perfectly good people or are you just trying to say that people that dont conform to the bible belt arent perfect? Or perhaps just that those who do are perfect?

I'm trying to say that people are persecuted because they are different. To the idealized White-Protestant-Heterosexual-Male of the Bible Belt, everyone who does not conform to that mold is different and therefore are persecuted. This does not mean, however, that difference requires persecution. It means that persecution requires difference. Those people that are seen as different are then turned into the world's scapegoats.

I think it would be best if we "agreed to disagree". We're stealing Ben T's thread ^_^. SORRY BEN!

[SylverStar]

I would actually probably lean towards the latter of the two of your definitions Ben. Though I really see Wiccans more inbetween. People in the first definition I probably wouldn't consider Wiccan. All the pagans I know in person are Wiccan...I'm the only non-wiccan. And it seems that they pretty much know their stuff when it comes to Wicca, but I never feel that they look down on me or think of themselves better than me.


As far as how the two views came about...well they're the two extremes, it's that simple (or at least in my mind)

(My reply to the orginal post because I'm too tired to read the whole thread)

[Ladyvi]

ben.. i have met both types and oddly enough a couple that was both fluffy and rigid.. funny as it sounds.

i was berated for being self initiated.. saying you cant be self initiated.. so therefor your not wiccan.. your pagan. been told that we are accepting of everyone and all types.. but then receive a whole battalion of rules that state otherwise.

i have met the euphoric dont harm anything vegetarian hug everyone and everything fluffy wiccan types.. 'lets everyone sing' in that always smile and chipper voice that grates your nerves. i dont trust anyone that perpetually smiles. makes me think they are hiding something.. and usually their own pain, past or some skeleton in the closet.

and folks wonder why i am solitary. groups and covens for the most part i have found to be too political and have a good time naked. and little to do with the dieties. i avoid covens for the most part.. the newer ones or regular ones are mostly as stated above. the older ones are so stringent and so exclusive. that your chance of getting in and learning are slim to none.

i have long since completed my self study of wicca and moved on to other paths. but those where my experiences.

[Moonstoned]

Moonstoned,

It's quite workable. As much as many chaotes want so desperately to claim that chaos magick is not a path unto itself, that it's only a meta paradigm, I just don't buy it. CM offers tenets, guidelines, technique ...but it does blend so well with everything. The main tenet of all CM is, "Does it work?" Even a trad-witch should be asking themselves that simple question. What is your will?

Living without labels is quite ok as well. I mean, I belobg to not one specific path, but walk a bit of my own straight up the middle. I used to work myself into a frenzy trying to place a name on it, then I decided I'm simply a Mage, or philosopher, or both. Have compassion and learn all you can, remember that you're a part of everything else, never alone, and you'll do just fine ...just remember to laugh. Nuff said.

:strike:
--Kaos

Ok, Kaos, I understand, 'class dismissed' :lol: Off I wander, on my over-intense search for a label, when I really should just shut up and make the dinner already :hehehehe: You're the first chaote I have spoken to and I am too keen. Apologies.

:RuNew:


Many thanks to Wiccans who have sent me PM's about finding out more. I now have a lot more to read :hairraise

[Toriach]

*pats erebus and docdoo on their pointy little heads* Gee it must be nice to have your little lives so together and all in place (or is that empty and meaningless) that you have plenty of time and energy to go forth and decide who is or is not worthy to practice your precious little religion. Further it must be really neat to be totally omniscient and be able to know who would or wouldn't suffer censure, abuse, and other horrifying consequences just for choosing the "wrong" religion. And finally it must be incredibly comforting to know that you live in a universe (apparently you two are among a select few who get to live there) in which justice happens perfectly, so that if you are fired from a job for having the "wrong" religion, people don't make up excuses that they pass off as real reasons for why the termination, and high powered, lawyers hearts dripping with empathy take your case pro bono caring only that "justice" is done. Must be very nice. It's a shame that you two don't get to live in your ideal universe where only the people you approve of get to be Wiccan's. Cause it would be kind of fun to watch as either the holier than thou-ism reached a point where it was decided that "you" were not deserving of the title Wiccan, or even more fun watch you two teetering around in your dotage wondering why there were no new members of your faith to replace all the appropriate ones who had been dying off.

Now then having gotten that off my chest let me move worward. To Ben Trimegistus- You're concern for how your faith is viewed by both those far outside it, those immediately outside it, and those within, speaks well of your character. However I hope that while you search for answers you are also working on letting go as you learn. The truth of the matter is that all religions have people like the king and queen of condemnation that I spoke of above, all religions have fuzzy headed can't we all just get along no matter the cost types (fluffies as I view them) and sadly it's usually those people who get the attention. I mean lets face it more people know about Pat Robertson, who felt the need to go on about how 9/11 was the fault of pagans, and homosexuals etc, than knew my grandmother when she was alive. She was a Christian and did believe that one needed to accept Christ as their savior, or they would go to Hell. And I have broken with her beliefs, but not her spirit. Would you like to know why she would talk with people about her beliefs? Because she hated the idea of anyone suffering what she believed was an eternity of torment. She wanted to spare people pain. And she did it without condemning, without hating. Even if she did not agree or approve of a persons actions or choices. But she's not the Christian majorities figure head. *shrugs* It sucks, but it seems that way with most religions.

But hey, keep talking, keep putting yourself out there and you will help if only on a person by person basis to change many peoples minds. After all thanks to you, I think of you when I access "Wiccan" in my little mental data base, rather than the King and Queen of condescension.

Onward, to Ben Gruagach. I love you man. I look forward to reading what you post. Thank you for getting into this topic early and offering some very well thought out ideas.

Next to Kaosxmage. More good thinking and common sense. I really have appreciated your posts as well

Next to Vamyric Whore. You have always struck me as a very thoughtful person. And to an extent I agree that ones personality, style and other interests do not negate the truth of their spirtual path. However I think you will find as you grow both in age and in wisdom that no matter how much you would like people to get that fact there are always going to be people who will take what they want from what you present to the world and use it to condemn or dismiss you and what you believe in. In time you might find yourself toning down, or not discussing with people you are not close to those parts of yourself that might unnecesarily cloud the issue.

Well there's my buck o nine. :-)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Maybe 8 or 9 months ago, I started a thread on Wiccan PR which got me in a lot of trouble. I was discussing the misconceptions about the Wiccan community held by those outside of Paganism. The general response was, "Why do you care what people think?"

Well, I still care what people think, but this morning I was struck by the perceptions of the Wiccan community held by those WITHIN the Pagan community. Judging from the posts on this forum regarding Wicca written by non-Wiccans (and even by some Wiccans), it can be surmised that Wiccans are two things:

1. Flaky, silly morons who pick and choose various bits of ancient and modern religious systems in order to create a piecemeal conglomeration of whatever appeals to them personally at that moment. They have no respect for history, tradition, or culture, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

2. Rigid, dogmatic ideologues who have replaced the glories of the Goddess with a myriad of strict rules of practice, not changing with the times. They look down on other pagans as "not pagan enough", scoff at anyone who did not receive a full Gardnerian initiation, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

How does one recognize two wildly differing stereotypes? How can we as a community be both flaky and rigid? Speaking as a Wiccan who is neither, it seems like rather a difficult proposition.

So where did these two misconceptions come from? I ask the non-Wiccans in this community -- why do you think that Wiccans are either making it up as they go along, or so dogmatic as to be just about the same as Christianity with different rituals? I'm really curious.


first thing is that i like this post. you are quite clever, ben, imo.

the sad thing is that most of it has some basis in truth.

(i am speaking as a wiccan who doesn't categorise herself with either of those two misconceptions)

i really hate how people label wiccans like that... there seems to be an anti-wiccan deal both inside and outside of the pagan community. the sad thing is that most of it is TRUE... all of the wiccans i have met irl fall into one of those two categories. (and this isn't saying much, because i've only met 10 or 11 now irl)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

*pats erebus and docdoo on their pointy little heads* Gee it must be nice to have your little lives so together and all in place (or is that empty and meaningless) that you have plenty of time and energy to go forth and decide who is or is not worthy to practice your precious little religion. Further it must be really neat to be totally omniscient and be able to know who would or wouldn't suffer censure, abuse, and other horrifying consequences just for choosing the "wrong" religion. And finally it must be incredibly comforting to know that you live in a universe (apparently you two are among a select few who get to live there) in which justice happens perfectly, so that if you are fired from a job for having the "wrong" religion, people don't make up excuses that they pass off as real reasons for why the termination, and high powered, lawyers hearts dripping with empathy take your case pro bono caring only that "justice" is done. Must be very nice. It's a shame that you two don't get to live in your ideal universe where only the people you approve of get to be Wiccan's. Cause it would be kind of fun to watch as either the holier than thou-ism reached a point where it was decided that "you" were not deserving of the title Wiccan, or even more fun watch you two teetering around in your dotage wondering why there were no new members of your faith to replace all the appropriate ones who had been dying off.

i agree with this. i am hunting you down tomorrow to shower you with karma.


Now then having gotten that off my chest let me move worward. To Ben Trimegistus- You're concern for how your faith is viewed by both those far outside it, those immediately outside it, and those within, speaks well of your character. However I hope that while you search for answers you are also working on letting go as you learn.

who's to say that ben isn't working on this?

i've voiced the same complaint he has, and in the past i have received a similar response to this... and learning not to care about it doesn't change that it does happen. i think that's what some of us may be getting at. :p


The truth of the matter is that all religions have people like the king and queen of condemnation that I spoke of above, all religions have fuzzy headed can't we all just get along no matter the cost types (fluffies as I view them) and sadly it's usually those people who get the attention. I mean lets face it more people know about Pat Robertson, who felt the need to go on about how 9/11 was the fault of pagans, and homosexuals etc, than knew my grandmother when she was alive. She was a Christian and did believe that one needed to accept Christ as their savior, or they would go to Hell. And I have broken with her beliefs, but not her spirit. Would you like to know why she would talk with people about her beliefs? Because she hated the idea of anyone suffering what she believed was an eternity of torment.

well, yes, that is typically what a lot of christians that i have encountered do. that was one of the reasons of the spaniards invading central america... they wished to 'save' the people there by converting them to christianity. is it an excuse? no, i don't think so.

please allow me to make an analogy.

wiccan witches are taught basics of magick... by books or by people, whatever, they learn them somehow. since i can't speak for the other brands of witches out there, and i don't know if this coincides with their beliefs... i'll say wiccan witches, because i am a wiccan witch and this is what i believe, so la. anyway, to the point...

we are taught that in order to do a healing spell for someone, you must first ask their permission and make sure that they are okay with it. if they are not, then you have got no right to meddle with their life, even if you believe that you could help them. your good intent won't get you anywhere if they won't accept it.

this can go along with the conversion thing.

if people don't want to be converted to christianity, and they are happy with their religion... i don't think that people have got a right to preach about it. in the end, you can't help someone unless they help themselves - and that goes along with EVERYTHING, not just with religion.



She wanted to spare people pain. And she did it without condemning, without hating. Even if she did not agree or approve of a persons actions or choices. But she's not the Christian majorities figure head. *shrugs* It sucks, but it seems that way with most religions.

commented upon this above... :)

okay, i think i'm finished for now, lol

[Erebus]

Where to begin? All the angsty goth highschool freshman coming out of the woodwork to defend the negative stereotype they perpetuate.

Cartwheel:

You say I'm being hyperbolic- there's a reason. Pagan is the new Gay. Gay IS the new Jew or Black. Slaves, Women, the handicapped, the imperfect.

You have no frigging clue. This is probably the most offensive thing I've read on these boards. Do you have any idea how much horror the Jews went through, to be claiming that being Gay is just like being a Jew? Do you have any idea how much horror homosexuals are going through, to be claiming that pagan is the new gay? How many pagans get firebombed houses, get a hundred rabid protestors showing up at their funerals, get tied to fence posts and beaten to death and then set on fire? Show me ONE, and I'll eat my frigging hat.

You have no sense of scale, kid. You think the little girl with a crusifix necklace in English class whispering about you to her buddies is "persecution" and makes you "the new Gay". And THAT proves my damn point for me. That "Oh, goddess, we're always so persecuted and maligned" crap is YET ANOTHER thing just about every pagan over 20 rolls their eyes at. Because IT'S NOT TRUE. It wasn't true in the "Burning Times", and it sure as hell isn't true now. You've never experienced any persection on the level that many homosexuals have to deal with. You've never even experienced any persecution beyond having some ditzy hall monitor say "I'll pray for you". If you had, you'd've started regaling us with your horror stories from the moment I questioned you. Because that's just what "the persecuted" do.

Plus, you let Isil go out and do all your work for you, which I despise. You couldn't even be bothered to back up your own hysterical claims of mass persecution and horrible danger to open pagans.


In my mind, experienced danger and imagined danger can be equally as devistating. If someone truely thought that, by revealing their beliefs, sexual orientation, GENDER, RACE, or INTELLIGENCE, a catestrophy would result, there doesn't need to be any REAL danger.

If they're that unstable, and jumping at shadows, they don't need to be trying to manipulate the fabric of the universe and/or representing paganism to the general populace at large. I imagine some sort of danger when getting up on stage talking to people - it doesn't make me any less of a wuss when I fail to do it, because THERE IS NO DANGER. Irrational, baseless, ungrounded fears are called PHOBIAS, and mental health professionals treat them. They're a personal weakness, and I'm not going to make allowances for someone failing to be a halfway decent representative of the pagan community just because they have a Christo-phobia.

[docdoo]

*pats erebus and docdoo on their pointy little heads* Gee it must be nice to have your little lives so together and all in place (or is that empty and meaningless) that you have plenty of time and energy to go forth and decide who is or is not worthy to practice your precious little religion. Further it must be really neat to be totally omniscient and be able to know who would or wouldn't suffer censure, abuse, and other horrifying consequences just for choosing the "wrong" religion. And finally it must be incredibly comforting to know that you live in a universe (apparently you two are among a select few who get to live there) in which justice happens perfectly, so that if you are fired from a job for having the "wrong" religion, people don't make up excuses that they pass off as real reasons for why the termination, and high powered, lawyers hearts dripping with empathy take your case pro bono caring only that "justice" is done. Must be very nice. It's a shame that you two don't get to live in your ideal universe where only the people you approve of get to be Wiccan's. Cause it would be kind of fun to watch as either the holier than thou-ism reached a point where it was decided that "you" were not deserving of the title Wiccan, or even more fun watch you two teetering around in your dotage wondering why there were no new members of your faith to replace all the appropriate ones who had been dying off.

Alright let me address this nice little piece of idealized sarcasm first. Sounds too much like you took a bath in the martyr pool (hmm...you *do* realize that millions of witches weren't burned at the stake...right?)

Point one...You don't have to come out of the broom closet...if you truly fear the repurcussions you've thrown around then by all means DON'T come out. I can respect your choice either way...hell, it honestly doesn't matter to me one way or the other. However, what you have to understand is that when a person goes to lengths to HIDE what they are they have made a decision that their spirituality is not as important ast their desire to not be hassled about it. That's a fact.

Secondly, I'm talking to a particular brand of wiccan/pagan...the ones who post 'HELP me someone! My parents just found my altar!' Or...'10 Ways to disguise your altar' Sure, don't go to work look at my boss and say, Oh, BTW...I'm a pagan!! I don't run around with 50 lbs of amber around my neck and a pentacle the size of a small boulder. In fact, for the most part, I'm pretty nondescript and very much forgettable. I don't advertise...However, having said that I will now say that everyone in my circle knows who and what I am. Parents, sisters, aunts, uncles, friends. Everyone.

I don't proclaim my religion to strangers anymore than strangers will walk up to me and say 'Im Christian'. Most people simply don't bother doing that and I act accordingly.

If you're one of the types I mentioned above then by all means DON'T come out...I don't want someone who is too afraid of what their close circle of friends will do to them to speak for any spiritual path. I think that too many people in Pagan paths simply LIKE feeling martyred (hence the 'burning times' and the 'Never again' and the continuing idea that millions of people were burned at the stake *rolls eyes*) It's much, much easier to hide pentacles and 'stage dress' our alters when we're *sure* that we will be put under the same microscope as Gays and Blacks. Let's face it, Martydom is heroic.

I make no move to hide what I am, what my path is. If someone asks I tell...simple as that. I go about my life in much the same way as I did when I was Christian.

Personally, I do happen to agree with Erebus, Obsidian and the others...until a person is willing to NOT hide their altars in their own homes then they have made a conscious decision and chosen the path of least resistance.

[Erebus]

*pats erebus and docdoo on their pointy little heads* Gee it must be nice to have your little lives so together and all in place (or is that empty and meaningless) that you have plenty of time and energy to go forth and decide who is or is not worthy to practice your precious little religion.

When you get older, you'll understand.


Further it must be really neat to be totally omniscient and be able to know who would or wouldn't suffer censure, abuse, and other horrifying consequences just for choosing the "wrong" religion.

It's called "statistics". It's really a nifty thing. They teach it in most high schools these days.


And finally it must be incredibly comforting to know that you live in a universe (apparently you two are among a select few who get to live there) in which justice happens perfectly, so that if you are fired from a job for having the "wrong" religion, people don't make up excuses that they pass off as real reasons for why the termination, and high powered, lawyers hearts dripping with empathy take your case pro bono caring only that "justice" is done.

No, it's just nice living in a universe where I have the willpower to get off my ass and prove my case with relevant documentation. What kind of job did you hold, where you could be fired without a paper trail a mile long and without a grievance policy?


Must be very nice. It's a shame that you two don't get to live in your ideal universe where only the people you approve of get to be Wiccan's.

Total shame. Then maybe Wicca would have some inkling of respectability as opposed to just being a teeniebopper fad with a few older followers trying vainly to rescue it from its own mire of inanity.


Cause it would be kind of fun to watch as either the holier than thou-ism reached a point where it was decided that "you" were not deserving of the title Wiccan, or even more fun watch you two teetering around in your dotage wondering why there were no new members of your faith to replace all the appropriate ones who had been dying off.

Better a tradition die off completely than be hijacked by the Instant Gratification generation and defiled beyond all recognition. Oops, too late.

[docdoo]

And again, Erebus hits the mark. Pagans are in NO WAY persecuted to the lengths that blacks and gays are persecuted. To collectively liken ourselves to blacks and gays (and, in a roundabout way to Jews who were persecuted to the tune of freaking genocide!) is incredibly self-serving and ridiculous.

Obsidian hits it on the head, we are a lazy culture...it's far too much fun to sit over our stash of candles and cry about being *sooo persecuted* than to actually take a bit of responsibility, grow up, and actually answer someone when they see your 'hidden' altar and ask what it is.

Heh, I knew that this mode of thinking was not going to be popular.

Oh and just so you know, I *don't* live in a perfect world. I deal with just as much crap as anyone else...BUT at least I'm not also dealing with trying to hide my spirituality from my parents, friends and relatives.

[Erebus]

Isil:

So, please share how your life changed when you told your parents about your path.

It didn't. :whatgives My parents knew what I was reading even when I was a kid. They saw my tools and my altar, and while they haven't seen my CURRENT altar, being so far away from me and all, they ARE helping me move into my new place next week and I'm not running my ass off to cover it up and put it in boxes before they get here. I'm not posting in New Pagans "Quick, how do I make it look like my altar is Catholic??" or "OMG, my parents are so going to totally ground me if they find this stuff!!".



oh: also I HAVE suffered 'persecution' for my religion, more than once. .... pyschotic ex-roommate... holy water...

So does that make you the new Jew?

[Asthmorte]

ugh, I give up....think what you will.....

[The High Queen of Faerie]

You have no sense of scale, kid. You think the little girl with a crusifix necklace in English class whispering about you to her buddies is "persecution" and makes you "the new Gay". And THAT proves my damn point for me. That "Oh, goddess, we're always so persecuted and maligned" crap is YET ANOTHER thing just about every pagan over 20 rolls their eyes at.

what, so one suddenly is granted maturity and knowledge at 20?



edit:


Isil:


It didn't. :whatgives My parents knew what I was reading even when I was a kid. They saw my tools and my altar, and while they haven't seen my CURRENT altar, being so far away from me and all, they ARE helping me move into my new place next week and I'm not running my ass off to cover it up and put it in boxes before they get here. I'm not posting in New Pagans "Quick, how do I make it look like my altar is Catholic??" or "OMG, my parents are so going to totally ground me if they find this stuff!!".


So does that make you the new Jew?

i hate to break it to you, erebus, but not all parents are as accepting as yours were. you have to step out of your little bubble for just a moment and realise that not everyone's life is identical to yours.

[Asthmorte]

i hate to break it to you, erebus, but not all parents are as accepting as yours were. you have to step out of your little bubble for just a moment and realise that not everyone's life is identical to yours.

nicely said!

[Erebus]

what, so one suddenly is granted maturity and knowledge at 20?

Actually it's closer to 25, but yes, that's about what happens. If there was no difference between a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old, we'd let 14-year-olds drive and consent to sex.


hate to break it to you, erebus, but not all parents are as accepting as yours were. you have to step out of your little bubble for just a moment and realise that not everyone's life is identical to yours.

Most people have no frigging clue how "accepting" their parents are because they're too Christophobic to find out and stand up for themselves.

If you're still terrified of what your parents will think of your path, you're not ready to walk that path. Period. Either grow a spine, or grow some patience, but in either case, at least grow up.

[Sommerfugl]

I've just read through this whole thread - very interesting so far...I'm posting to say that I fully agree and support Grey and Erebus 100%....I'm not going to start posting in this thread because they've said all I'd like to anyway (and in a more eloquent way than I ever could)...I'd also end up shouting at people about 'goth' and teenagers which would be totally off topic.
So yeah....nice job Erebus and Grey - I wouldn't have the patience myself.

[docdoo]

Look, if you choose to hide it from your parents its your choice! What I am saying is that at least ACKNOWLEDGE that you have chosen to put your desire to not be condemned ABOVE your desire to worship whatever path you choose.

You can't have it both ways.

[Asthmorte]

Look, if you choose to hide it from your parents its your choice! What I am saying is that at least ACKNOWLEDGE that you have chosen to put your desire to not be condemned ABOVE your desire to worship whatever path you choose.

You can't have it both ways.


good point:)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Actually it's closer to 25, but yes, that's about what happens. If there was no difference between a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old, we'd let 14-year-olds drive and consent to sex.

you really think that all 14 years olds have the exact same mentality, the exact same maturity level?

using that logic, you must have been truly an idiot at 14. :p




Most people have no frigging clue how "accepting" their parents are because they're too Christophobic to find out and stand up for themselves.

tis called... fear. a lot of people know their parents better than you know their parents, and thus have a wee bit better of an idea on how they'd react, methinks.


If you're still terrified of what your parents will think of your path, you're not ready to walk that path. Period. Either grow a spine, or grow some patience, but in either case, at least grow up.

not necessarily. i used to know a girl whose parents were devout catholics, and whenever she brought up paganism with them, they threatened to throw her out of the house. needless to say, she was a 'closet pagan' until she was old enough to financially support herself.

it's a good idea not to offend the people that shelter you imo >>; i know my aunt disowned her daughter when she found some tarot cards in her bedroom.

[Erebus]

you really think that all 14 years olds have the exact same mentality, the exact same maturity level?

using that logic, you must have been truly an idiot at 14. :p

Yet again, I'm going to use a big word for a subject you probably haven't studied yet: "Statistics".


tis called... fear.

No, 'tis called... phobia.


a lot of people know their parents better than you know their parents.

The biggest problem with teenagers of all stripes is that they THINK they know their parents, and pretty much everything else, when the reality is they simply pulled their assumptions out of their wazoos and are too scared to test them.


not necessarily. i used to know a girl whose parents were devout catholics, and whenever she brought up paganism with them, they threatened to throw her out of the house. needless to say, she was a 'closet pagan' until she was old enough to financially support herself.

What was wrong with just waiting to move out first, then picking a religion? What's wrong with not fulfilling every impulse right at this very second, especially if, as you alledge, it's "dangerous" to do so? Is it "cooler" to be an underground martyr rebel pagan with evil parents than someone who actually has enough respect for a path not to practice it when you're not willing to accept the consequences thereof?


it's a good idea not to offend the people that shelter you imo

It's a better idea to do this crap behind their backs in the most dishonest, disrespectful manner possible and pray they never find out?

[Erebus]

I mean, if it's really that "dangerous" for you to practice right now, I'm sure the Goddess will understand.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Yet again, I'm going to use a big word for a subject you probably haven't studied yet: "Statistics".

i have studied statistics. :) whether or not you'd like to believe that.

furthermore, what has it got to do with the issue at hand? we're not debating academics.




No, 'tis called... phobia.

heh...

dictionary.com states:
"pho·bi·a Audio pronunciation of "phobia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fb-)
n.
1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion."

"fear Audio pronunciation of "fear" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fîr)
n.
1.
1. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
2. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear"

if one is afraid that their fundie parents will kick them out of the house or even hit them (a friend was physically abused when found out that she was a witch)... is that not a -reason- to be afraid? fear is being afraid with a reason, while phobia is devoid of logic. if people are afraid of bad consequences, is that not being afraid OF something? with a reason?




What was wrong with just waiting to move out first, then picking a religion?

haha. this is a highly hypocritical statement, especially since you -claim- to have researched paganism or the occult at a young age. i believe you said you were a 'child'. why do you judge others that you dub as 'children'? were you a unique case, erebus?


What's wrong with not fulfilling every impulse right at this very second, especially if, as you alledge, it's "dangerous" to do so?

i think that some people are trying to allude that people should not have to wait until it is 'safe'.


Is it "cooler" to be an underground martyr rebel pagan with evil parents than someone who actually has enough respect for a path not to practice it when you're not willing to accept the consequences thereof?

no. it's not. but it is a great deal more difficult. people cannot change what parents they were born with, so far as i know.




and now i ask...

how old are you, erebus? :)

[Fideal]

Where to begin? All the angsty goth highschool freshman coming out of the woodwork to defend the negative stereotype they perpetuate.

I hardly think I'm goth or angsty, though I am a teen, and not actually a Wiccan. As I said before, there might be a lot of fluffy teens, but I don't think that all teens are fluffy (but, then, who I am to judge my own practices?), and I don't think they are all of the problem. My parents know I'm Pagan, in fact my mother is too.

Teens being Fluffy Wiccans is not the reason but the effect of the the problem, the reason FOR the problem is the writers and companies that publish these books. A solution to the problem would be to put some sort of standards on Pagan books, so that the information is factual and not pulled out of the writer's arse. That would fix the problem with adults AND teens. Though I don't really know how realistic that plan is, seeing as I dont really know anything about publishing.

[Asthmorte]

and now i ask...

how old are you, erebus? :)


ah yes, do tell!

[Isil Darkmoon]

Erebus: no, I never claimed it made me the "new Jew" or the "new Gay" (wait, I already *fit* that category too, kind of.) I was replying to your "most people who spout off about persecution have never faced it." No, I haven't had my furbabies killed, thankfully, or my person harmed. I was merely saying "I've very specifically seen it directed at me, I 've seen teh forms it has taken in my life, and while it so far has been minor, I have seen it directly and it is not to me just a nebulous fear that 'could' happen."

You said "prove it" about several things. I did. How do you respond? I feel like you're playing the game that you most object to in others : replying only to the parts of posts where you feel you can "win" the round.

As for "is it more disrespectful to lie to your parents about religion, or hurt them by telling them", I feel you are wrong in assuming it's always one way. Which is worse and more hurtful WILL vary from parent to parent, greatly. Some would prefer the truth; some would prefer their happy fantasies. You simply can't accurately make that kind of generalization.

I also seem to have missed the part where you gave an answer to the thought of "why is my spirutuality (or sexuality as the other thing I 'hide') anyone's business but my own?"

[Asthmorte]

You said "prove it" about several things. I did. How do you respond? I feel like you're playing the game that you most object to in others : replying only to the parts of posts where you feel you can "win" the round. "


Ive noticed this too

[Fideal]

ah yes, do tell!

He's 24. Says so in his profile.

[Grey]

tis called... fear. a lot of people know their parents better than you know their parents, and thus have a wee bit better of an idea on how they'd react, methinks.

not necessarily. i used to know a girl whose parents were devout catholics, and whenever she brought up paganism with them, they threatened to throw her out of the house. needless to say, she was a 'closet pagan' until she was old enough to financially support herself.

it's a good idea not to offend the people that shelter you imo >>; i know my aunt disowned her daughter when she found some tarot cards in her bedroom.

*sighs* so they are afraid... what does that mean? that they should be held up as examples of what to do? what to be? Bullshit. Heros are not those who are not afraid of what comes there way but those who are truely afraid and overcome it anyways. And heros are our rollmodels, not cowards.

What Im trying to say here is that while I dont expect that everyone is going to go out and tell their families and friends that there pagan/wiccan/whatever, I do expect that that behavours should NOT BE ACCEPTED AS THE NORM. It should not be looked at as a decent and understandable thing to do.

People die for their faith everyday. They live and fear and misery and despair. They do all it can to hold onto what they think is right, these are people of conviction and despite the fact that I may not agree witht he ideal that they hold so dear I do respect them. I can not find it in my heart to respect someone who cant be honest with themselves and truthful to their kin.

*shakes head* Not having your parents feed and clothe you, not being able to talk to your aunt, these things are inconveniences compared to what people go through for their faith. Shit I know people that dont have their parents feed and clothe them just because their parents dont care. I buy my own clothes, pay for my insurance and gas and car, and I pay rent to live in my parents home since I was 15. My family loves me, never doubt that, but they dont shelter me.

Dont put your head in the sand. Do what you want with your life but have the guts to look at it and say what it is instead of lying to yourselves, your kin, and everyone else. You want to hide, do so. But dont sit there and call it and act of honor by any means.

[Grey]

I also seem to have missed the part where you gave an answer to the thought of "why is my spirutuality (or sexuality as the other thing I 'hide') anyone's business but my own?"

If the topic is that of sexuality or relgion or anything else you should have the honor and decency to tell the truth. Say nothing if you will but dont lie to people.


ah yes, do tell!

I thought you said you were done with this thread.... coming back just for some petty remarks shows little class. I was under the impression that you had some.

*shakes head* I dont agree with erebus that everyone under the age of 18 is a fluffy idiot going through a phase, but I do think theres enough of them out there to cause a problem. Those of you who arent fluffy angsty folks with to much time or not enough focus or faith... I have no greef with you. Those who do, I just wish you would find whatever it is you need to get over it and get some sense.

[Khuinaset]

He's 24. Says so in his profile.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't in there earlier today because I looked.

[lightdragon]

10 pages on this post. And i just read or skimmed through them all. The few wtiches/wiccans/pagans/or whatever you call yourself i`ve met are definitely on the flaky side. From their actions i don`t think it would make a difference what religion they practice.
More recently i had one guy come up to me and say he was a wiccan. then he says he was taught by his friend and that he is a gay warlock. i was going :geez: . This is the type of people i`m meeting. We could do two things: do what Obsidian says and maintain a more restrictive aspects towards admitance. or
re-establish the American Council of Witches and form some sort of dogma that is not dogma.

[Velvet]

Ok, I've only meet 5 Wiccans in real life, and four were oh so fluffy! One actually studied and knew about her religion though.

[Asthmorte]

I thought you said you were done with this thread.... coming back just for some petty remarks shows little class. I was under the impression that you had some.



I never said that I left the thread, I said that I was done arguing with erebus.

[Asthmorte]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't in there earlier today because I looked.


I looked too. It didnt say his age.

[Isil Darkmoon]

If the topic is that of sexuality or relgion or anything else you should have the honor and decency to tell the truth. Say nothing if you will but dont lie to people.

That's EXACTLY my point. I see nothing wrong with "saying nothing", and when asked directly am honest. But some of the arguments here seem to be that unless you are actively announcing it to the world, it's not "legitimate".

[Ladyvi]

i concurr.. i do not announce my beliefs.. my work knows im pagan. though im not fanatical about it. and we go about our work day just fine. if someone asks me .. i say ' im pagan' .. some just go ' ohh ok' .. i used to wear a pentagram. it broke. hoping for one at yule however money is tight. the very few that venture forth and ask me what pagan is.. i explain it short sweet and to the point. most are satisfied with that explanation. other than that.. even with my pentagram on. i got very few questions in my day to day life.

i wear regular street cloths. i am a mother. i am actually old fashioned. i look like joe shmoe on the street. i dont go banging about saying what i am and daring any opposition. why? .. i make my stand and my way in my own quiet little way. does that help pagan, wiccan or witch kind?... i dont know.. but thats how i live.. pagan is a part of my life and a lifestyle of magick.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

I thought you said you were done with this thread.... coming back just for some petty remarks shows little class. I was under the impression that you had some.

...what?

that was one of the most hypocritical statements i've seen today. why do you attack vw as a person? why? what the hell's it got to do with the issue? why do you attack the people, and not the issue? personally i think that making such a remark suggests that you yourself have got no "class", if you must stoop to that level.

[Grey]

...what?

that was one of the most hypocritical statements i've seen today. why do you attack vw as a person? why? what the hell's it got to do with the issue? why do you attack the people, and not the issue? personally i think that making such a remark suggests that you yourself have got no "class", if you must stoop to that level.

*shakes head* I would have LOVED to continue that conversation, however Vampiricwhore DIDNT have any comments on the topic at hand... infact all the posts on that page to that point had been attacking erebus's character. I posted on the topic, and added that in as another comment because I thought this behavour unfair and innapropriate.

[Erebus]

furthermore, what has it got to do with the issue at hand? we're not debating academics.

Well, to spoon-feed it to you, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, 14-year-olds are, on average, immature and hormonally unstable.


if one is afraid that their fundie parents will kick them out of the house or even hit them (a friend was physically abused when found out that she was a witch)... is that not a -reason- to be afraid? fear is being afraid with a reason, while phobia is devoid of logic. if people are afraid of bad consequences, is that not being afraid OF something? with a reason?

I am indeed saying the fear is without logic. I have a hard time believing that parents who were, up until this point, loving and supportive would suddenly turn abusive the instant the word "pagan" is uttered. If your parents already show signs of being abusive, well, they're just looking for an excuse to abuse you and it's not about the paganism anyway. Either way, the fear of pagan=death is irrational and ungrounded.


haha. this is a highly hypocritical statement, especially since you -claim- to have researched paganism or the occult at a young age.

What part of "my parents knew what I was reading" did you miss the first time around?


i think that some people are trying to allude that people should not have to wait until it is 'safe'.

Why doesn't that logic apply to things like drinking, or driving cars, or having sex?


and now i ask...

how old are you, erebus? :)

I added it to my profile before I took my wife out to dinner. Not sure why it wasn't there in the first place. My apologies.

{more to come....}

[Athena-Nadine]

*sighs* so they are afraid... what does that mean? that they should be held up as examples of what to do? what to be? Bullshit. Heros are not those who are not afraid of what comes there way but those who are truely afraid and overcome it anyways. And heros are our rollmodels, not cowards.*...applauds...*

There is nothing noble in lying to your parents, sneaking around and doing things they strictly forbid in their own houses. Nothing. It doesn't matter how you try to justify it. Getting upset and defensive doesn't change the fact that disrespecting your parents that way is an act of nothing but selfishness, and a blatant slap in the face to them. If that makes you happy, if that makes you proud, so be it. But don't try to make it sound like something commendable when it isn't. Your parents have a legal right and obligation to you until you are a legal adult. Your parents always have the right to decide what is and is not allowed in their own houses, no matter how old you are.

And before any of you try to jump down my throat with some inane, "You wouldn't understand! You can't understand!" understand this: I grew up in a more abusive and volatile home than many of you will ever have the misofrtune to be exposed to. I have been beaten. I have had knives thrown at me by my own father. I literally lived in the middle of a constant warzone, one where just being there insured that I would be beaten bloody on a whim. I know what it is like to be homeless. I have lived on the street. I know what it is to be truly hungry. Outside of that, I have been raped and beaten by others outside my family. I spent my entire life, until I was close to my mid 20s, making myself as inconspicuous as possible in order to avoid more abuse.

But there is and always has been one aspect of my life that I would never cease to carry with pride. Because through all of that, I learned one very important thing. My self respect is my responsibility. My pride in myself is my responsibility. My life is my responsibility. My happiness, or lack thereof, is no one's responsibility or fault but my own. And my love and reverence for my gods outstrips all of that.

My only reason for following my religion is to properly worship my gods. That's it. Nothing else. My relationship to my gods is paramount. I would not give it up for anything. I see no reason to blather on and on about it to everyone I meet, but I will not lie about it. I've been teased. So what? I've lost friends. Big deal. I've faced prejudice, disrespect and bad treatment for many things, including my religion.

To lie about of hide such an integral part of my life, would be the same as lying and hiding my own self. I refuse to hide who I am. If I were to do so, I would be laying down all self-respect. But worse, if I were to bow to the pressure of these people, no matter who they were, I would be unworthy of my gods and my religion.

My gods are not playthings. My religion is not some game. They are not there just to make me feel better, or because Their Names sound cool, or because it makes me different. They are there because They are. And the moment I swore to serve Them, it became my sacred duty to give Them proper respect. That includes not lying about Them or hiding Them. They deserve better than that from me. They expect batter than that from me. My dedication to Them is the most serious and the most important commitment of my life.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Well, to spoon-feed it to you, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, 14-year-olds are, on average, immature and hormonally unstable.

yes, i agree with you - the majority of 14 year olds are immature.

... however. there are always acceptions to the rule.




I am indeed saying the fear is without logic. I have a hard time believing that parents who were, up until this point, loving and supportive would suddenly turn abusive the instant the word "pagan" is uttered. If your parents already show signs of being abusive, well, they're just looking for an excuse to abuse you and it's not about the paganism anyway. Either way, the fear of pagan=death is irrational and ungrounded.

...how would you know? i am quite curious, since you are from a supportive family. i'd venture to say that you can't vouch for situations that you have not been in.



What part of "my parents knew what I was reading" did you miss the first time around?

absolutely nothing. that's the point i was attempting to make. while your parents knew, others may have to research in secret. not everyone's got it that easy.


Why doesn't that logic apply to things like drinking, or driving cars, or having sex?

because the issues at hand are very different. religion is a personal descision... the further exploration of self. it's very introspective, and one should not have to wait to explore one's beliefs, imo. on some levels, it is an intellectual activity.

as a matter of fact, the age of sexual consent is 14 in south carolina, according to some sources... :) in most places in the usa it is 15, 16 or 17. the typical age for being able to drive a car is 16 - is that not relatively young?

the issue is, sadly, not about sex or drinking or anything. :) so i won't elaborate.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

*...applauds...*

There is nothing noble in lying to your parents, sneaking around and doing things they strictly forbid in their own houses. Nothing. It doesn't matter how you try to justify it. Getting upset and defensive doesn't change the fact that disrespecting your parents that way is an act of nothing but selfishness, and a blatant slap in the face to them. If that makes you happy, if that makes you proud, so be it. But don't try to make it sound like something commendable when it isn't. Your parents have a legal right and obligation to you until you are a legal adult. Your parents always have the right to decide what is and is not allowed in their own houses, no matter how old you are.

And before any of you try to jump down my throat with some inane, "You wouldn't understand! You can't understand!" understand this: I grew up in a more abusive and volatile home than many of you will ever have the misofrtune to be exposed to. I have been beaten. I have had knives thrown at me by my own father. I literally lived in the middle of a constant warzone, one where just being there insured that I would be beaten bloody on a whim. I know what it is like to be homeless. I have lived on the street. I know what it is to be truly hungry. Outside of that, I have been raped and beaten by others outside my family. I spent my entire life, until I was close to my mid 20s, making myself as inconspicuous as possible in order to avoid more abuse.

But there is and always has been one aspect of my life that I would never cease to carry with pride. Because through all of that, I learned one very important thing. My self respect is my responsibility. My pride in myself is my responsibility. My life is my responsibility. My happiness, or lack thereof, is no one's responsibility or fault but my own. And my love and reverence for my gods outstrips all of that.

My only reason for following my religion is to properly worship my gods. That's it. Nothing else. My relationship to my gods is paramount. I would not give it up for anything. I see no reason to blather on and on about it to everyone I meet, but I will not lie about it. I've been teased. So what? I've lost friends. Big deal. I've faced prejudice, disrespect and bad treatment for many things, including my religion.

To lie about of hide such an integral part of my life, would be the same as lying and hiding my own self. I refuse to hide who I am. If I were to do so, I would be laying down all self-respect. But worse, if I were to bow to the pressure of these people, no matter who they were, I would be unworthy of my gods and my religion.

My gods are not playthings. My religion is not some game. They are not there just to make me feel better, or because Their Names sound cool, or because it makes me different. They are there because They are. And the moment I swore to serve Them, it became my sacred duty to give Them proper respect. That includes not lying about Them or hiding Them. They deserve better than that from me. They expect batter than that from me. My dedication to Them is the most serious and the most important commitment of my life.


okay, so that's your personal belief. :) nothing wrong with that.

i do disagree with the idea that hiding one's gods is disrespectful. some people are more comfortable with it that way. i don't see why someone should set themselves up for abuse.

if being open about your spirituality works for you... fabulous.

it may not work for others.

[docdoo]

Nallia,

You speak the absolute truth! In fact, you managed to say exactly what I wanted to say but wasn't able to get out properly.

Viviene, I point you to Nallia's post for I think she has said it best thus far.

Deity deserves respect and no matter what else I have wavered on in my life my committment to being who I am has never changed.

[Fideal]

Nallia,

You speak the absolute truth! In fact, you managed to say exactly what I wanted to say but wasn't able to get out properly.

Viviene, I point you to Nallia's post for I think she has said it best thus far.

Deity deserves respect and no matter what else I have wavered on in my life my committment to being who I am has never changed.

**nods** agrees also

[Erebus]

stupid, stupid error! Erebus, PLEASE repost as best you can. I hit 'edit' instead of 'reply with quote' and was too damn tired to notice my mistake. This has NOT been removed as an editorial thingy, but a truly dumb mistake. Please put your original post back here asap!
-A very ashamed Isil Darkmoon

---
Here's as much of your original text as I had preserved on my notepad:


But as I said above, you proved things in reference to Cartwheel (who should have done his own work) claiming that pagans are the "new Gay" and the "new Jew". I'll go ahead and say this now, since you brought it back up, even though I ceded that portion of the argument already (so it's off-record and doesn't count): Compare the events you found. I'm going to assume you used the worst example of pagan persecution you could find. Having a pet killed, imho, is not in any way comparible to being disembowled by being drug behind a pickup truck in chains.

From a spirituality standpoint, it's a bit like having a friend who's all like "Yeah, I'm you're buddy!" and then when someone else asks going "No, I don't even know that person." I hate it when that happens to me, and I'd never do it to a deity I claim to worship and revere.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Nallia,

You speak the absolute truth! In fact, you managed to say exactly what I wanted to say but wasn't able to get out properly.

Viviene, I point you to Nallia's post for I think she has said it best thus far.

Deity deserves respect and no matter what else I have wavered on in my life my committment to being who I am has never changed.

i have read her post. :)

why should respect be required to come in the form of being open about one's beliefs?

[Athena-Nadine]

i have read her post. :)

why should respect be required to come in the form of being open about one's beliefs?
This is why:


From a spirituality standpoint, it's a bit like having a friend who's all like "Yeah, I'm you're buddy!" and then when someone else asks going "No, I don't even know that person." I hate it when that happens to me, and I'd never do it to a deity I claim to worship and revere.
To deliberately set out to hide my feelings and relationship with my Gods would be the exact same thing as saying, "I am ashamed to be seen with so and so." Whatever the reasons, doing so is degrading to Them and to me. I wouldn't do that to any of my friends, no matter what anyone else thought of them. Why on earth would I think it's then acceptable to do that to my gods?

[Grey]

How can you not see how deceet, lying, and hiding among the shadows is not an honorable route? How do you give respect to people, if it is not based on their honor? Their word?

[docdoo]

i have read her post. :)

why should respect be required to come in the form of being open about one's beliefs?


Because, my gods are not here for my amusement. How the heck can I expect to call upon ANY god when I denounce them to my family and friends? I'll tell you that if I had a friend who treated me like that they wouldn't be my friend for long.

I repeat...My Gods are not here for MY convenience. I CHOSE a path that was difficult, nobody put a gun to my head, I knew this coming into it. Therefore if I am not willing to go about my spirituality in just an open a fashion as I did when I was Christian then I don't deserve my God's favour.

I don't CARE if you worship openly or not the only thing I ask is that those who are actively hiding and covering up their spirituality admit that they have made a choice to take comfort over beliefs.

[Erebus]

yes, i agree with you - the majority of 14 year olds are immature.

... however. there are always acceptions to the rule.

Exceptions, you mean?

I suppose so. There are exceptions to every rule. Does that mean we should not have any rules at all? Especially since you've admitted the vast majority of 14-year-olds are irresponsible? Are you saying EVERYONE gets the benefit of the doubt just because YOU may not be an average 14-year-old?

You've admitted that keeping 14-year-olds from practicing magic would prevent far more unstable people from screwing around with forces beyond their comprehension than it would prevent stable kids from exploring a spirituality. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing your line after that admission.


...how would you know? i am quite curious, since you are from a supportive family. i'd venture to say that you can't vouch for situations that you have not been in.

Did I say it was "supportive"? I recall choosing my words rather carefully. If I said the word "supportive", I'll eat my hat (again).

I distinctly remember being yelled at for reading "science fiction and science bullshit" in reference to my books. But because my parents KNEW, you just assumed they LIKED it.


absolutely nothing. that's the point i was attempting to make. while your parents knew, others may have to research in secret. not everyone's got it that easy.

It would have been much easier for me to research in secret. It would also have been disrespectful to both my gods and my parents. Had my parents forbidden me from doing such, I would have simply waited until I got to college to continue my studies rather than be that cowardly and that disrespectful.


because the issues at hand are very different. religion is a personal descision... the further exploration of self.

And sex isn't? How about voting? How about military service?


and one should not have to wait to explore one's beliefs, imo.

If you can't actually devote serious time and energy to it due to actual danger or fear of danger, how much do you really expect to accomplish? If you can only do your research during lunch period and recess, how much more are you going to know by the end of high school than you would otherwise?

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Because, my gods are not here for my amusement. How the heck can I expect to call upon ANY god when I denounce them to my family and friends? I'll tell you that if I had a friend who treated me like that they wouldn't be my friend for long.

I repeat...My Gods are not here for MY convenience. I CHOSE a path that was difficult, nobody put a gun to my head, I knew this coming into it. Therefore if I am not willing to go about my spirituality in just an open a fashion as I did when I was Christian then I don't deserve my God's favour.

I don't CARE if you worship openly or not the only thing I ask is that those who are actively hiding and covering up their spirituality admit that they have made a choice to take comfort over beliefs.

okay, lol, before the lot of you chop my head off, i would like to say...

that i myself -am- open about my beliefs.

however, others may not be. in my opinion, that's their descision that i have no right to meddle in. i don't think that i have a right to judge anyone else's choice in hiding their beliefs.

i myself don't agree with 'denouncing' the deities, as you say. that is not what i said. (i love how people put words in my mouth. :) )

i don't see the harm in not bringing it up.

if someone asks you, fine. if you feel comfortable talking about it, no problem.

if you don't, why share?

is it really anyone else's business what gods you worship? (and, since the topic of sex was alluded to earlier... is it really anyone else's business how many sex partners you've had?)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Exceptions, you mean?

I suppose so. There are exceptions to every rule. Does that mean we should not have any rules at all? Especially since you've admitted the vast majority of 14-year-olds are irresponsible? Are you saying EVERYONE gets the benefit of the doubt just because YOU may not be an average 14-year-old?

yes, that is what i meant. :) thank you.

(i'm sorry, i'm tired.)

i never said that we shouldn't have any rules. i just think that not everyone should be judged based on the majority. no more. i did not suggest that -everyone- should get the benefit of the doubt... i just don't think that the whole lot of teenagers should be judged because most are irresponsible.


You've admitted that keeping 14-year-olds from practicing magic would prevent far more unstable people from screwing around with forces beyond their comprehension than it would prevent stable kids from exploring a spirituality. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing your line after that admission.

haha, no. :p

i suggested that while some 14 year olds are immature, others are not.

personally i think it should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.




Did I say it was "supportive"? I recall choosing my words rather carefully. If I said the word "supportive", I'll eat my hat (again).

perhaps i misunderstood your words.


I distinctly remember being yelled at for reading "science fiction and science bullshit" in reference to my books. But because my parents KNEW, you just assumed they LIKED it.

no. but you did say that they were helping you move in - and assistance is a supportive act, correct?

i mean that they did not shun you/kick you out of the house.




I would have simply waited until I got to college to continue my studies rather than be that cowardly and that disrespectful.

well that's just spiffy-fab-cool for you. :) i am glad you are such a virtuous person.



And sex isn't? How about voting? How about military service?

once again... i think it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. one should decide what it is that they do with themselves.



If you can't actually devote serious time and energy to it due to actual danger or fear of danger, how much do you really expect to accomplish? If you can only do your research during lunch period and recess, how much more are you going to know by the end of high school than you would otherwise?[/QUOTE]

[Grey]

As previously stated, not being willing to accept association with your dieties is a major act of disrespect.
As for how many sexual partners yes, that is an open topic... especially if the person asking is a possible sexual partner. Who on the other hand? I wouldnt think that was nessacerry. But with STD's and such out there how many is an important factor, especially as most dont go and get tested.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

As previously stated, not being willing to accept association with your dieties is a major act of disrespect.
As for how many sexual partners yes, that is an open topic... especially if the person asking is a possible sexual partner. Who on the other hand? I wouldnt think that was nessacerry. But with STD's and such out there how many is an important factor, especially as most dont go and get tested.

i meant as a regular conversation topic, just with the random person on the street, or someone you may just be meeting. i don't really find it too appropriate of a discussion topic.

... and i have not suggested that denying association with one's deities is a good thing. as an individual, i don't agree with it. but i don't see the point in just shouting out personal information if you are not asked.

[Athena-Nadine]

okay, lol, before the lot of you chop my head off, i would like to say...

that i myself -am- open about my beliefs.

however, others may not be. in my opinion, that's their descision that i have no right to meddle in. i don't think that i have a right to judge anyone else's choice in hiding their beliefs.

i myself don't agree with 'denouncing' the deities, as you say. that is not what i said. (i love how people put words in my mouth. :) )

i don't see the harm in not bringing it up.

if someone asks you, fine. if you feel comfortable talking about it, no problem.

if you don't, why share?

is it really anyone else's business what gods you worship? (and, since the topic of sex was alluded to earlier... is it really anyone else's business how many sex partners you've had?)
So tell me, how is someone saying, "I'm Christian," or, "I'm Agnostic," or, "I'm not religious," when asked not disrespectful to their gods if it isn't true? How is it any more honorable than saying, "No, I'm not friends with ____________; I don't even like him/her," just because the person asking doesn't like them? How respectful would you think it would be if the person they were denouncing was you?

[Grey]

i meant as a regular conversation topic, just with the random person on the street, or someone you may just be meeting. i don't really find it too appropriate of a discussion topic.

... and i have not suggested that denying association with one's deities is a good thing. as an individual, i don't agree with it. but i don't see the point in just shouting out personal information if you are not asked.

Ah, then you have a point about the sex topic there of course.

But as for not shouting religious information out or anything... Who said you must declare it to everyone? All Thats been said is that you shouldnt HIDE it, not that you must present it in a slide show to your entire state.

[cartweel]

I suggested that we end the discussion, but that hasn't happened. This is an old post, but I believe that I need to reply to it anyway. Therefore:


This is probably the most offensive thing I've read on these boards.

YES! *Checks that one off his list* At least I'm doing my job .


Do you have any idea how much horror the Jews went through, to be claiming that being Gay is just like being a Jew? Do you have any idea how much horror homosexuals are going through, to be claiming that pagan is the new gay? How many pagans get firebombed houses, get a hundred rabid protestors showing up at their funerals, get tied to fence posts and beaten to death and then set on fire? Show me ONE, and I'll eat my frigging hat.

I haven't said that Pagans have gone through the same level of persecution as many other groups. Those peoples have gone through horrific ordeals that are by their very nature unimaginable. I am saying, however, that Pagans have become the new recipient of WASPS' and Soccer Moms' ill-will and distrust. By 'Pagans are the new Gay' or Black, or Jew, or Woman, I mean that Pagans now find themselves at the receiving end of persecution, just as these people have in the past.


You have no sense of scale, kid. You think the little girl with a crusifix necklace in English class whispering about you to her buddies is "persecution" and makes you "the new Gay". And THAT proves my damn point for me. That "Oh, goddess, we're always so persecuted and maligned" crap is YET ANOTHER thing just about every pagan over 20 rolls their eyes at. Because IT'S NOT TRUE. It wasn't true in the "Burning Times", and it sure as hell isn't true now. You've never experienced any persection on the level that many homosexuals have to deal with. You've never even experienced any persecution beyond having some ditzy hall monitor say "I'll pray for you".

*laughs* How dare you ^_^. You have no knowledge of me, my history, or my personal experiences. STOP IMAGINING THEM FOR YOURSELF. I DO know what many homosexuals have gone through because I am a homosexual myself and have gone through exactly the same things. No, I'm not a Matthew Sheperd. I have, however, been called a Faggot since I was six years old because I wasn't 'macho' and didn't play football. I have been beaten by my father. I have been beaten in school, laughed at, and indeed PERSECUTED against. When she found several Pagan books I got the "we weren't raised that way" talk from my mother (the same talk, might I add, when she found my collection of kalvin clein underwear magazine clippings). I've been preached to about the horror, perversion, and evil of Paganism from Christians in the area. I've seen and heard others being attacked (though I myself have not, precisely because of my safety net: the 'broom closet').


If you had, you'd've started regaling us with your horror stories from the moment I questioned you. Because that's just what "the persecuted" do.

NO, that isn't what " 'the persecuted' do". That's what people who can't rise above their hardships and move on "do". I didn't start slinging personal stories at you before because I don't believe they prove anything- they could easily be the "exception" among the "rule". Once *MY* experiences and personal credibility have been attacked, though, they do play a vital role.


Plus, you let Isil go out and do all your work for you, which I despise. You couldn't even be bothered to back up your own hysterical claims of mass persecution and horrible danger to open pagans.

Again, if I had shown you examples, what would they have proven? That one, two, or three people had been persecuted.

But you have to remember- persecution to one or two is still persecution.



If they're that unstable, and jumping at shadows, they don't need to be trying to manipulate the fabric of the universe and/or representing paganism to the general populace at large. I imagine some sort of danger when getting up on stage talking to people - it doesn't make me any less of a wuss when I fail to do it, because THERE IS NO DANGER. Irrational, baseless, ungrounded fears are called PHOBIAS, and mental health professionals treat them. They're a personal weakness, and I'm not going to make allowances for someone failing to be a halfway decent representative of the pagan community just because they have a Christo-phobia.

They aren't trying to represent Paganism to anyone. They are being Pagan for themselves, no one else. Why does someone need to prove their worthiness to you?
~

In any case, you having experienced disrespect based on your religion does not have any bearing on whether or not "The Persecuted" have experienced such. That none of the minors so far has had any stories except involving "friends" speaks volumes.

Now you have a minor's personal experiences. I was the persecuted in the examples I've given (except, of course, for the last instance.)

[Grey]

Ill respond to your last comment, Im sure erebus will want to respond to all the others.

They dont need to prove their worthiness to me. But I will judge them none the less as they in turn judge me to one extent or the other. I have an opinion and as a human being Im entitled to that. That they hurt the name they associate themselve with, and that dishonoring that name in turn dishonors one that I hold dear, I have stake in what they do.

By being pagan the represent it. Just as what one white man in the south does to a black man will put a shadow on all white men, just as one black man stealing a car radio will shadow all black men, and just how one man raping someone puts a cloud over the heads of all men, their actions put shadow on my faith. I refuse to swallow that without protest.

[cartweel]

They dont need to prove their worthiness to me. But I will judge them none the less as they in turn judge me to one extent or the other. I have an opinion and as a human being Im entitled to that. That they hurt the name they associate themselve with, and that dishonoring that name in turn dishonors one that I hold dear, I have stake in what they do.

Yes, you do have a valid and valued opinion. Yes, if they hurt the name of Paganism or Wicca then you do have a stake in what they do. If they are judging you then of course you have the right to believe that you can judge them in return.

I just do not feel that hiding one's beliefs from the public is 'hurting' any name. It is their personal choice that affects no one besides themselves.


By being pagan the represent it. Just as what one white man in the south does to a black man will put a shadow on all white men, just as one black man stealing a car radio will shadow all black men, and just how one man raping someone puts a cloud over the heads of all men, their actions put shadow on my faith. I refuse to swallow that without protest.

Someone that hides or does not advertise their beliefs represents that faith or beliefs to no one but themselves. If a white man, or a black man, or any man for that matter does nothing to shadow a name? They have hurt no one.

[Grey]

But eventually when they are "found out" or come "out of the broom closet" they are known, and what they have done becomes known.

[cartweel]

But eventually when they are "found out" or come "out of the broom closet" they are known, and what they have done becomes known.

If what they have been doing while in secrecy is righteous and respectable, there is no problem. Otherwise, the issue isn't that they have been hiding but that they have been 'hurting Paganism's name', as you say. Hiding isn't the matter- it's what you do while in hiding and how you handle yourself.

[Grey]

But lying to remain hidden? thats a betrayal of their own honor and of the trust the people they know put in them. I cant help but find that horrifying.

[cartweel]

But lying to remain hidden? thats a betrayal of their own honor and of the trust the people they know put in them. I cant help but find that horrifying.

I don't see it as a betrayal of honor: if it truely is the safest and sometimes ONLY route for them, how can we condem them? Is working for one's own safety dishonorable?

The people I hide my beliefs from aren't my friends and they aren't the people trust. Those people I hide from have already forsaken and betrayed me- that is exactly why I hide.

Don't get me wrong, though. That doesn't mean that I don't AT THE SAME TIME try to understand or work with those peoples' views and beliefs for the betterment of our relationship and foundation of trust.

[Grey]

"those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" I believe good all ben franklin said that and I couldnt agree more. What is SAFE isnt always RIGHT. stopping a rape could get you killed, but if you dont do something to help the victim your just as bad, maybe worse, than those who commited the attrocity. The same goes for anything else.

Its late at my abode, I think Ill probly be going now. At a later time I see you all Im sure.
*bows*
Goodnight.

[cartweel]

Its late at my abode, I think Ill probly be going now. At a later time I see you all Im sure.
*bows*
Goodnight.

Right. Again, nice talking to you. Ciao!

[cartweel]

"those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" I believe good all ben franklin said that and I couldnt agree more. What is SAFE isnt always RIGHT. stopping a rape could get you killed, but if you dont do something to help the victim your just as bad, maybe worse, than those who commited the attrocity. The same goes for anything else.

I'm saying that hiding is safe for some people. It may not be 'right' (or is that righteous?), but it is still safe. As I've said before: can we condem someone for not being 100% right in their ways 100% of the time? Can we condem for doing the very human thing and valuing their own safety before the 'right thing to do'? No.

We can try to correct them and show them that it isn't 'right', but we cannot...CANNOT condem them for it. It is an absolutely understandable response.

[bshore]

I realize that I'm jumping into this rather late in the game, but I just can't resist a healthy debate, especially about a topic so near to me now.

While both sides have briliant arguments and valid points, I believe that by arguing the "right" and "wrong" of topics like age and maturity, we miss one vital point: exactly what should a 14 year old who is genuinely interested in Paganism do? According to Erebus and others, a teenager is too young to properly follow so complex a faith as Paganism. Ok, I'll agree that teenagers minds are still being formed and most are impressionable, but other religions have a system to educate children from very young ages. The problem here is not that kids are claiming to be High Priestess of East Elm High, it's that they have no way to know that they're completly ignorant of the majority of the path they claim.

Healthy debate is all well and good, but we seem to be coming up with no solutions to these problems. There is no Pagan outreach program, no centralized clergy, no trusted resource to which interested youth can go. This seems to me to be a larger problem than one's reasons for telling their parents or not.

And on the note of being "in the broom closet", I think your "just wait till you're 18" solution is a little inapropriate, considering the group you're advising. Remember when you were 16? Did you ever listen to someone who told you to wait till you grew up? Of course not! Instead of saying "you'll understand more when you're older", we should be apeasing their natural thirst for knowledge -- constructive knowledge with a firm basis in diversity and experience from older or more experienced people.

So, since it's entirely too late for me to be up, I'll check back in the morning and think about this over night to see if I can't come up with some solutions to what I see as the larger picture.

[Isil Darkmoon]

Erebus: I'm on "no one's" side of the argument except my own. I've jumped in with my views, some of which overlap with others, but I make my cases on what *I* believe. This is simply an issue I have strong opinions on.



But as I said above, you proved things in reference to Cartwheel (who should have done his own work) claiming that pagans are the "new Gay" and the "new Jew". I'll go ahead and say this now, since you brought it back up, even though I ceded that portion of the argument already (so it's off-record and doesn't count): Compare the events you found. I'm going to assume you used the worst example of pagan persecution you could find. Having a pet killed, imho, is not in any way comparible to being disembowled by being drug behind a pickup truck in chains.
Actually, I chose the most recent event chronologically, since you specifically said "within the past 5 years, please". It was the one I could recall, off the top of my head, by name as the most recent. I was too tired to google for cases I wasn't already familiar with in any coherent fashion. So it was simply the newest, not the worst. The second case was the same: it was a case I was so familiar with that I could recall enough about it immediately to google for a couple links. I'm a Texan;there was much talk about this case, and still to this day is. Even this may not be the 'worst' racial hate crime, awful as it is... merely the one I could remember best in a very tired moment.


From a spirituality standpoint, it's a bit like having a friend who's all like "Yeah, I'm you're buddy!" and then when someone else asks going "No, I don't even know that person." I hate it when that happens to me, and I'd never do it to a deity I claim to worship and revere.
Again, I make the distinction between "not volunteering it out of the blue" and "lying about it" that you don't seem to. Take your analogy and let's say this friend is named "Tom Jones".

There are three responses, to my mind:

bragadaccio/name dropping:
me: "hey, boss, I just got back from lunch with Tom Jones, isn't he the greatest, I mean he's this really cool guy!"
boss: "who the hell is Tom Jones?"
me: ""

denial:
co-worker:"Wasn't that Tom Jones I saw you coming back from lunch with?"
me: "No, you'd never see me with him, I mean 'Tom Jones'? Who's that? I don't konw any Tom Jones!!"

quiet respect:
co-worker:"That's a really beautiful locket you've got on. Does it have any special meaning?"
me: "Yes, here.. *opens, shows picture*
co-worker: "Oh, that's Tom Jones, isn't it? Why's he so important to you?"
me:"yes it is... and [reasons why friend is so special]"

In that last scenerio, [I]there is no lie. There's an honest, quiet respect--but there is no volunteering of information until queried, either.

This is the distinction I make. And I can't bring myself to believe that a quiet, honest answer upon a question--but not until--is less respectful than flinging open the broom closet and parading out in ruby red slippers and a pendacle-covered boa.

I simply can't see it as black and white, off and on. It's all shades, patterns, hashmarks, and weird pokadots to me; there is no one-size-fits-all solution to me.

[cartweel]

I realize that I'm jumping into this rather late in the game, but I just can't resist a healthy debate, especially about a topic so near to me now.

While both sides have briliant arguments and valid points, I believe that by arguing the "right" and "wrong" of topics like age and maturity, we miss one vital point: exactly what should a 14 year old who is genuinely interested in Paganism do? According to Erebus and others, a teenager is too young to properly follow so complex a faith as Paganism. Ok, I'll agree that teenagers minds are still being formed and most are impressionable, but other religions have a system to educate children from very young ages. The problem here is not that kids are claiming to be High Priestess of East Elm High, it's that they have no way to know that they're completly ignorant of the majority of the path they claim.

Healthy debate is all well and good, but we seem to be coming up with no solutions to these problems. There is no Pagan outreach program, no centralized clergy, no trusted resource to which interested youth can go. This seems to me to be a larger problem than one's reasons for telling their parents or not.

And on the note of being "in the broom closet", I think your "just wait till you're 18" solution is a little inapropriate, considering the group you're advising. Remember when you were 16? Did you ever listen to someone who told you to wait till you grew up? Of course not! Instead of saying "you'll understand more when you're older", we should be apeasing their natural thirst for knowledge -- constructive knowledge with a firm basis in diversity and experience from older or more experienced people.

So, since it's entirely too late for me to be up, I'll check back in the morning and think about this over night to see if I can't come up with some solutions to what I see as the larger picture.

I think you are exactly right. *claps*

[Moonstoned]

I think you are exactly right. *claps*

I do hate an argument, but I think so too (runs away before I get drawn in).

One other point (I ran back), do you not think that people of different ages, although they may want to enter into discussion about the same subject, are probably not going to have much success?

We've all been 14, I remember what it was like, you don't want wrinklies talking down to you. Or even people only 10 years older. Goodness, I wouldn't be 14 again for a million pounds.

And, on the other hand, even the most mature 14 year old STILL hasn't had the life experience of someone decrepit like me, who although doesn't have all the facts, still has been through more stuff and can speak from experience, just because of the longer years spent on this planet.

Old and young, different, help them when they're young, remember what it was like, don't knock them, unless they are being closed-minded.

I haven't read all this thread so if it is entirely off topic I apologise, I just thought I saw here people of different ages trying to find agreement through argument. Sometimes it just isn't going to happen.

[Moonstoned]

"those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" I believe good all ben franklin said that and I couldnt agree more. What is SAFE isnt always RIGHT. stopping a rape could get you killed, but if you dont do something to help the victim your just as bad, maybe worse, than those who commited the attrocity. The same goes for anything else.

Its late at my abode, I think Ill probly be going now. At a later time I see you all Im sure.
*bows*
Goodnight.
Grey, you're up again :kooky:

You are like my husband, you are brave. Of course even us scaredy ones would step in to try to stop a rape or some harm being done to a child, but if we don't see immediate danger being done to someone else then sometimes we just aren't as brave as you. I wish I was, and maybe it can be learned, but fear is a disabling thing.

[bshore]

One other point (I ran back), do you not think that people of different ages, although they may want to enter into discussion about the same subject, are probably not going to have much success?

We've all been 14, I remember what it was like, you don't want wrinklies talking down to you. Or even people only 10 years older. Goodness, I wouldn't be 14 again for a million pounds.

Yes, this is just my point: 14 year olds won't have much success talking with anyone more experienced in their subject matter. My point is that people like Erebus and co. just want to pat them on their head and tell them to run along till they grow up. I don't think this is the most constructive solution, because of the second point you make: teens don't listen when people tell them their too young. It usually just makes them want to become more involved, even if it's just to show that pesky adult exactly how mature they are.



And, on the other hand, even the most mature 14 year old STILL hasn't had the life experience of someone decrepit like me, who although doesn't have all the facts, still has been through more stuff and can speak from experience, just because of the longer years spent on this planet.

Old and young, different, help them when they're young, remember what it was like, don't knock them, unless they are being closed-minded.

I haven't read all this thread so if it is entirely off topic I apologise, I just thought I saw here people of different ages trying to find agreement through argument. Sometimes it just isn't going to happen.

Hmm, I think we're agreeing in different ways. Since you don't like an arguement, I'll just ask for clarification, you seem to be all for some kind of teaching program, just don't think teenagers are mature enough for a full-fledged coven membership. correct?

[The High Queen of Faerie]

So tell me, how is someone saying, "I'm Christian," or, "I'm Agnostic," or, "I'm not religious," when asked not disrespectful to their gods if it isn't true? How is it any more honorable than saying, "No, I'm not friends with ____________; I don't even like him/her," just because the person asking doesn't like them? How respectful would you think it would be if the person they were denouncing was you?

you're misunderstanding my words. :) i agree with you in this point, miss. okay?

[The High Queen of Faerie]

and... this topic is likely passed, but i would like to say something.

why should one tell another person how to handle their spiritual life? what gives one the right to tell someone else what to say when approached about their religion? i am very interested in knowing this.

[Fideal]

and... this topic is likely passed, but i would like to say something.

why should one tell another person how to handle their spiritual life? what gives one the right to tell someone else what to say when approached about their religion? i am very interested in knowing this.

It depends upon what one is commenting upon. Personal Gnosis is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with correction faulty history or anything factual that can be proven that someone has got wrong.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

It depends upon what one is commenting upon. Personal Gnosis is one thing, but I see nothing wrong with correction faulty history or anything factual that can be proven that someone has got wrong.

and i don't see anything wrong with correcting faulty history either. :)

but i do see something very wrong about telling someone they should be open with their spirituality. it's their life, their business - i don't see why it should be anyone else's concern.

[dr_zeus440]

i would like to start off by stating that i am a small onion in arkansas.


we are a lazy culture...it's far too much fun to sit over our stash of candles and cry about being *sooo persecuted* than to actually take a bit of responsibility, grow up, and actually answer someone when they see your 'hidden' altar and ask what it is.

hmmm........
....and its far too much fun to sit at your happy little keyboards and write supported but generalized statements about anyone who's a minor, than to actually TAKE A BIT OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR CORRECTING THE IMAGE PROBLEM IN WICCA :apirate: ....you can sit here and defend your arguments alllllll daaaay looooong, but unless youre doing something to STOP the representation of wicca, then youre responsible for that too. its fun to sit here and point the finger at all teens because most of them are fluffheads, but using any generalization, and stating it as gospel, and using statistics to back it up is poo. NO generalization is gospel, get over it.

in short, dont whine about something you've done nothing to correct.


Pagan is the new Gay.

umm, ROFL first of all. and second, no. Erebus and docdoo have got a HUGE point when they say that the pagan community and its members know NOTHING of persecution relative to that experienced by either the gay community or the jewish community. im not saying that religious persecution hasnt occurred, but i am saying that being the target of a genocide campaign that killed millions is somewhat more substantial than being discriminated against because of one's beliefs.


We could do two things: do what Obsidian says and maintain a more restrictive aspects towards admitance. or
re-establish the American Council of Witches and form some sort of dogma that is not dogma.

restrictive attitude towards admittance? good luck. if obsidian can say that our society today is lazy (which may be correct) then i can say that people want more what they cant have. what do you propose we do, just suddenly cast a magical spell (yes, please note that sarcasm) that will make everyone forget about wicca overnight and then only admit the ones who are "worthy"? you can choose not to teach people that you deem to be unworthy, you can join a tradition that restricts admittance, but the fact is that watered down poo is out there on the market being sold as wicca. people buy this poo and call themselves wiccan. there is more than one type of wicca alive and well today.

and the american council of witches? i seriously hope that you're joking, i believe obsidians got a reasonably interesting article about that farcical gathering at the mirror. and dogma that is not dogma? wake up and smell the dogma, religion is alllll about dogma. why is dogma such a dirty word these days? dogma isnt a strict set of rules that oppresses peoples freedom, dogma is "a doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith". you choose a religion because you believe in its dogma, therefore it DOESNT restrict your freedom, anyone who does otherwise is full of poo.


To lie about of hide such an integral part of my life, would be the same as lying and hiding my own self. I refuse to hide who I am. If I were to do so, I would be laying down all self-respect. But worse, if I were to bow to the pressure of these people, no matter who they were, I would be unworthy of my gods and my religion.

Nallia, i loved that post. most of it i agreed with. lying to your parents and being deceitful is foul, imo. but i disagree with the quote above. your value system, which is specific to your gods and yourself, dictates that you would be unworthy of your gods and your religion if you hid your true self. not all people hold this value, therefore they are not subject to the same loss of worth.


Why on earth would I think it's then acceptable to do that to my gods?

you wouldnt think that its acceptable to your gods, because its your thought and your gods. but someone elses gods and thoughts? well, are you gunna say that your values and opinions on what the gods deserve and expect are superior to anyone elses?

in closing, goshdarnit, this thread is long. too long. and full of bickerin'. xentor, once again, we need a forum for bickerin' :). theres plenty of argument to support erebus original statement, and plenty against it. its all heavily opinionated, and THEREFORE...i am a small onion in arkansas.

edited to add: hmm, this thread is pretty darn active, this post is inapplicable to about 30 posts previous to it. annnnnd im gunna stop writing in this thread because im already bored, and i obviously cant keep up.

p.s. onion.

[Grey]

You wish to stop people from being predudiced and persecuting? Then you need to make it real, and valued to them. My grandfather didnt like black people, he was fairly open minded and he never went out of his way to hurt them, but he was biased. He was raised in a time where he could have been alot worse and been easily accepted for it. My uncle Andrew met a black kid and they became friends, went to college together... Grandpa couldnt help but be around him and see what a great guy he was. Really turned him around.
Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race, Jobs, whatever you cant stop predudice by hiding from it. You cant. Ignorance and lack of familiarity only hurt your cause.

No, I will not sit there and tell that new wiccan that her beliefs are wrong or that hes not "doing it right". Dogma, to each their own. Ive helped kids research their religions, and Seeing the ones that were serious enough to actually want to warms my heart. Ive helped them form arguments and points to show their parents, and had success even in a pair of catholic families that had been in the church for generations and generations. Jewish families too. Yeah, one father isnt talking to his daughter because of it, but they never had a good relationship anyways.

Yes, fear is a crippling thing at times Ill admit that. But a point comes when you have to relise that you gain nothing from it and must instead brace yourself and overcome your challenges. How can anyone progress through life without overcoming it?

The average person is afraid of the unknown and the dark, so please dont lurk in the shadows, it only frightens and confuses them. That hurts me, that hurts you, and that hurts alot of people neither of us will ever know, "persecuted" and "persecutor".

Ahh but what to do about 14 year olds that need some information... give it to them. Plain and simple show them where and how to research. Make them take some initiative of course, and please dont gift wrap spells. But recommending books, to buy, out of your own collection, or at the library are all valid options. Internet sites like our very own Mysticwicks are available that have a huge store of reliable knowledge.
Dont "pat them on the head and tell them to wait tell they grow up", but dont let their age be an excuse to be immature or ignorant. The first lesson I give a person looking at wicca is a history lesson about the whitch laws of england and gerald gardner. From the start you need to tell them "hey, this is serious ok?". Logic should be a part of their minds by this age, and even with hormones racing through their systems they should be expected to respect this religion and themselves enough to take it seriously.

[Asthmorte]

*shakes head* I would have LOVED to continue that conversation, however Vampiricwhore DIDNT have any comments on the topic at hand... infact all the posts on that page to that point had been attacking erebus's character. I posted on the topic, and added that in as another comment because I thought this behavour unfair and innapropriate.


attacking erebus's charachter? really, how did I do that? Show me an example, and I can back it up. I respect Erebus's opinion, though I do not agree with it. I respect Erebus as a person, because he stands up for what he believes. Same with Viviene, I am basically just nodding along with her posts because she has managed to put into words what I have been wanting to say.

Erebus was actually attacking my charachter for a bit. He went into my profile at another sire and critisezed my likes and dislikes, and basically who I am as a person.

Erebus, you said that wisdom comes at around 25? you yourself are not 25, so how exactly would you know? I myself have known some extremely unwise 25 year olds.

Viviene said that things should be dealt with on a case by case basis. I completely agree. that is one of the problems with court now days. Viviene is 14. In no way is she 'fluffy'. She sets a wonderful example for pagans/wiccans everywhere. As for 14 year olds having no life experience, that is not true. Many 14 year olds have had to raise thier younger siblings alone, provide food for thier family, go through being raped and abused, moving from foster home to foster home...and they learn a lot from that. I am one of those people unfortunately. So dont say that I have no life experience when Ive gone through a lot more than many of you have.

[bshore]

Ahh but what to do about 14 year olds that need some information... give it to them. Plain and simple show them where and how to research. Make them take some initiative of course, and please dont gift wrap spells. But recommending books, to buy, out of your own collection, or at the library are all valid options. Internet sites like our very own Mysticwicks are available that have a huge store of reliable knowledge.
Dont "pat them on the head and tell them to wait tell they grow up", but dont let their age be an excuse to be immature or ignorant. The first lesson I give a person looking at wicca is a history lesson about the whitch laws of england and gerald gardner. From the start you need to tell them "hey, this is serious ok?". Logic should be a part of their minds by this age, and even with hormones racing through their systems they should be expected to respect this religion and themselves enough to take it seriously.

Hmmm, I think you and I are basically in agreement, then. Sorry if you took anything I said to heart, I was being a touch sarcastic with that comment, but that was kinda how ya'll were coming across. I really would like to start a discussion on how we could promote a more well-rounded, historically acurate view of Pagan beliefs to teens. hmm, maybe I will start that one. Any takers?

[Moonstoned]

Yes, this is just my point: 14 year olds won't have much success talking with anyone more experienced in their subject matter. My point is that people like Erebus and co. just want to pat them on their head and tell them to run along till they grow up. I don't think this is the most constructive solution, because of the second point you make: teens don't listen when people tell them their too young. It usually just makes them want to become more involved, even if it's just to show that pesky adult exactly how mature they are.



Hmm, I think we're agreeing in different ways. Since you don't like an arguement, I'll just ask for clarification, you seem to be all for some kind of teaching program, just don't think
teenagers are mature enough for a full-fledged coven membership. correct?

Entirely agree with the first paragraph.


I really, really don't know enough about Wicca to talk about it, I just had that thought about people of different ages trying to come to an understanding, as regards ANY subject. I know when I talk to my nieces and nephews, no matter how hard I try not to be patronising, they perceive me as being so. :foopsies:

Coven membership, I have NO experience of, at the moment I couldn't consider being in a coven, and wouldn't want to as I am a person who does my own thing, on my own. Let me think, a full-fledged teacing programme? Yes, specifically designed for the 'under 18's; maybe, sounds like a good idea. If I DID ever want to be in a coven (I'm not Wiccan for now, haven't read enough yet to feel it is definitely for me) then I think I would only want over-18's in it, you have to draw a line somewhere and here that is the voting age, so that'll do. I do believe in different places for different aged people, because what fits one group probably isn't ideal for another. Sorry, long winded cos I hadn't thought of that part of the argument, was really just being general about youngsters/oldsters.

[bshore]

Entirely agree with the first paragraph.


I really, really don't know enough about Wicca to talk about it, I just had that thought about people of different ages trying to come to an understanding, as regards ANY subject. I know when I talk to my nieces and nephews, no matter how hard I try not to be patronising, they perceive me as being so. :foopsies:

Coven membership, I have NO experience of, at the moment I couldn't consider being in a coven, and wouldn't want to as I am a person who does my own thing, on my own. Let me think, a full-fledged teacing programme? Yes, specifically designed for the 'under 18's; maybe, sounds like a good idea. If I DID ever want to be in a coven (I'm not Wiccan for now, haven't read enough yet to feel it is definitely for me) then I think I would only want over-18's in it, you have to draw a line somewhere and here that is the voting age, so that'll do. I do believe in different places for different aged people, because what fits one group probably isn't ideal for another. Sorry, long winded cos I hadn't thought of that part of the argument, was really just being general about youngsters/oldsters.

Ok, yep, we agree :hahugh: I don't know a lot about coven membership, either, and I'm not wiccan, but Wicca seems to appeal to teens, so that was the path I decided to focus on.

I'm really interested in what everyone else has to say about this idea, too.

[cartweel]

Alright, so this is going to be the last of me in this thread because I think I've shown my point of view and defended it to the best of my abilities.

I just want to clear up one thing- my infamous "Pagan is the new Gay" statement.

I got the structure of the sentence from the well known sayings "Green is the new Blue" or "White is the new Black" that are used in describing fashion trends. By saying that 'Pagan is the new Gay' I mean that Pagan is the new 'flava'' of week. More accurately, they are one of many 'flava's' that are being persecuted throughout the world.

I wholely agree that Pagans have gone through nothing compared to what Jews, Homosexuals, Blacks, Women, etc., have gone through. I am saying that both have been caught in the sights of hateful, persecuting people. The only difference is that when they're firing at Jews, Gays, Blacks, etc., they're using a much, MUCH larger gun.

It's a bazooka and a b.b. gun- They both still hurt like hell.

And with that, I'm out! ^_^ Thankyou to all who have helped me out (Specially Isil, Vivienne, bshore, and others)

[Moonstoned]

Alright, so this is going to be the last of me in this thread because I think I've shown my point of view and defended it to the best of my abilities.

And with that, I'm out! ^_^ Thankyou to all who have helped me out (Specially Ibis, Vivienne, bshore, and others)
Yay! I'm 'others'! :yayhawaii

Only joshing cartweel :clapping: :rollingla

[Ben Trismegistus]

Wow. Things are worse than I thought.

[Ben Gruagach]

Wow. Things are worse than I thought.

Yeah... I go away for a few days, and the place just explodes.

Looking back over the thread it looks to me like there is a lot of talking, not a lot of listening, and people with hair-trigger sensitivies who are quick to judge others as unworthy.

That, in a nutshell, is my personal observation of the big problem with Wicca (or any minority group) and PR. We don't have much hope in convincing outsiders about our truth if we can't even learn how to get along with each other amongst ourselves.

But I think we'll grow out of it. Other groups have and we can too. And I for one, as both a gay man and as a Wiccan, do think we should be making comparisons with what other groups have learned. If we don't learn from the past we are doomed to repeat the mistakes.

[Erincelt]

Amen, Gruagach. (I've been lurking this thread.)

I find it interesting how many pages were wasted arguing over whether or not one particular statement was the best to make, instead of discussing the original issue. Then again, that exemplafies the point.

[Ben Trismegistus]

But I think we'll grow out of it. Other groups have and we can too. And I for one, as both a gay man and as a Wiccan, do think we should be making comparisons with what other groups have learned. If we don't learn from the past we are doomed to repeat the mistakes.
Yeah, I think there will be a huge period of falling away. Charmed will eventually be canceled, and something else will become a new fad, like celibacy or public nudity or something. All the people who weren't really serious about Wicca in the first place will fall away, attracted by some new way of shocking the people around them. Our numbers will drop severely, but those who are left will be the quiet, intelligent Wiccans, the ones who are serious about the religion itself, and not its trappings or its shock value.

I guess the best thing we can do is wait.

[Aelfoak]

Charmed will eventually be canceled
I bloody well hope so, my sister has an unhealthy addiction to the program and its driving me mental!!

[Ben Gruagach]

Yeah, I think there will be a huge period of falling away. Charmed will eventually be canceled, and something else will become a new fad, like celibacy or public nudity or something. All the people who weren't really serious about Wicca in the first place will fall away, attracted by some new way of shocking the people around them. Our numbers will drop severely, but those who are left will be the quiet, intelligent Wiccans, the ones who are serious about the religion itself, and not its trappings or its shock value.

I guess the best thing we can do is wait.

I guess having people drop out of the community is one possibility. Or perhaps we could be like the gay and lesbian community and learn to embrace the diversity instead of trying to squash it. Celebrate the creativity and energy the younger generation bring with them instead of trying to force them into some arbitrary straitjacket of conformity!

As a gay man I'm secure enough in my own identity that it doesn't bother me there are gay men who are into drag, fetish-wear, the club scene, or whatever niche they find appealing. It doesn't bother me that they get some press attention during Pride. Perhaps it's because we've gotten enough varied attention and have more of us "out of the closet" that the majority of people out there don't just automatically assume we gays are all drag queens. Perhaps it's because the gay community as a whole realized we had to learn to hang together or else we'd end up hanging separately. There is strength in working together, and that often involves learning to not be judgemental of the diversity in our own community.

A monoculture might be the fond dream of some Wiccans, but I can honestly say it's not one of my aspirations. Autonomy and creativity and individual responsibility are too important for me personally to sacrifice them for the artificial sense of security generated by conformity.

[BlackMadonna]

Judging from the posts on this forum regarding Wicca written by non-Wiccans (and even by some Wiccans), it can be surmised that Wiccans are two things:

Wiccans are many things, but mostly, they are humans with human strengths and frailties.



1. Flaky, silly morons who pick and choose various bits of ancient and modern religious systems in order to create a piecemeal conglomeration of whatever appeals to them personally at that moment. They have no respect for history, tradition, or culture, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

Someone who choses eclecticism over traditionalism is not flaky, automatically. I know of many eclectic pagans who are serious scholars. They follow a path that speaks to them. Of course there are many nuts and flakes out there as well. And chosing something because it sounds cool or looks impressive is not a religion, only a shallow step on which they are standing on at the moment.



2. Rigid, dogmatic ideologues who have replaced the glories of the Goddess with a myriad of strict rules of practice, not changing with the times. They look down on other pagans as "not pagan enough", scoff at anyone who did not receive a full Gardnerian initiation, and their religion is based around wanting to see people naked.

I know of some elistist Gardnerians, but I also know of many elistist Neo-Pagans who think other pagans do not know as much as they do and therefore, are fluffies.



How does one recognize two wildly differing stereotypes? How can we as a community be both flaky and rigid? Speaking as a Wiccan who is neither, it seems like rather a difficult proposition.

By knowing that we are all humans and we are complex creatures.



So where did these two misconceptions come from?

From the "Ireads", as in "I read a book".
Book knowledge is good, great in fact, but will only get you so far. One has to put that book knowledge into use. As soon as one puts their knowledge to use, as in actual application, they learn what works and what doesn't. Flaky ideas fall to the wayside, and they start to emerge more knowledgable, and ultimately, they mature and grow up.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

I guess having people drop out of the community is one possibility. Or perhaps we could be like the gay and lesbian community and learn to embrace the diversity instead of trying to squash it. Celebrate the creativity and energy the younger generation bring with them instead of trying to force them into some arbitrary straitjacket of conformity!

agreed. :)



A monoculture might be the fond dream of some Wiccans, but I can honestly say it's not one of my aspirations. Autonomy and creativity and individual responsibility are too important for me personally to sacrifice them for the artificial sense of security generated by conformity.


:cheers:

[Grey]

*shrugs* True enough, but for instance... Christianity. They have a single source of dogma *for the most part* yet are incredibly diverse from full blown fanatics to laid back neohippies for goodness sakes. Just because you have a set amount of dogma doesnt mean it isnt infinitly personalizable.
I find it incredibly odd when a Wiccan tells me that they worshop more than two gods. From everything Ive read, and the few serious wiccans Ive met there is A god and A goddess... *shakes head* it just confuses me a bit. Perhaps someone here could enlighten me?
The whole use of multiple gods outside of a specific pantheon was always, I thought anyways, the realm of those who are called pagans, or "neopagans".

[DebLipp]

I find it incredibly odd when a Wiccan tells me that they worshop more than two gods. From everything Ive read, and the few serious wiccans Ive met there is A god and A goddess... *shakes head* it just confuses me a bit. Perhaps someone here could enlighten me?
The whole use of multiple gods outside of a specific pantheon was always, I thought anyways, the realm of those who are called pagans, or "neopagans".

There are different answers to this. The most common answer is soft polytheism. This means you worship many gods but believe that ultimately, they are One. In Wicca, the belief would be that ultimately, they are Two, usually followed by, ultimately, the Two are One. So, you can worship Danu or Artemis or Durga or Grandmother Spider, and worship each fully and totally, acknowledging Her individuality and uniqueness, and yet believe that ultimately each is a part of the Goddess.

The less common answer is monolatry; the belief that you acknowledge the existence of many gods (polytheism), but worship only one (or, in the case of Wicca, two). It's like monogamy—you acknowledge that other women exist, you just don't bang 'em.

Other answers combine these two approaches, seeing The Lord and The Lady as the unique and specific (polytheistic) gods of Wicca, and also seeing them as part of a greater whole.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

There are different answers to this. The most common answer is soft polytheism. This means you worship many gods but believe that ultimately, they are One. In Wicca, the belief would be that ultimately, they are Two, usually followed by, ultimately, the Two are One. So, you can worship Danu or Artemis or Durga or Grandmother Spider, and worship each fully and totally, acknowledging Her individuality and uniqueness, and yet believe that ultimately each is a part of the Goddess.

The less common answer is monolatry; the belief that you acknowledge the existence of many gods (polytheism), but worship only one (or, in the case of Wicca, two). It's like monogamy—you acknowledge that other women exist, you just don't bang 'em.

Other answers combine these two approaches, seeing The Lord and The Lady as the unique and specific (polytheistic) gods of Wicca, and also seeing them as part of a greater whole.

very fascinating article, ms delipp... i love the way you word things, lol :p

but anyway, yeah, i find that all interesting - it's something i've been curious about myself. i have for the longest time called myself a 'wiccan' and worshipped the god and the goddess... but in may i've found my patron deities, and so my focus has shifted a great deal. i'm moving more into hellenism, i guess, haha.

it just goes to show that wicca is, as with christianity, a huge branch on the tree of paganism. there are different branches of christianity, such as lutheranism and all that... kindof equates with the different wiccan trads, right? like alexandrian wicca and whatnot. i think. :) please hit me if i'm wrong.

[DebLipp]

very fascinating article, ms delipp... i love the way you word things, lol :p

but anyway, yeah, i find that all interesting - it's something i've been curious about myself. i have for the longest time called myself a 'wiccan' and worshipped the god and the goddess... but in may i've found my patron deities, and so my focus has shifted a great deal. i'm moving more into hellenism, i guess, haha.

it just goes to show that wicca is, as with christianity, a huge branch on the tree of paganism. there are different branches of christianity, such as lutheranism and all that... kindof equates with the different wiccan trads, right? like alexandrian wicca and whatnot. i think. :) please hit me if i'm wrong.

No, I think you're exactly right. Wicca is very broad. It's also very autonomous, everyone practices with a level of individual variation. I know of covens with a variety of patron gods and goddesses; gods and goddesses precious to the HPS and/or HP who work their way into the group's work, these include Isis, Shiva, Kwan Yin, and Kali. Some covens are strictly Lord-and-Lady, but many find that becoming Pagan opens them to relationship with deity in ways not previously imagined. I know that was true for me.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I guess having people drop out of the community is one possibility. Or perhaps we could be like the gay and lesbian community and learn to embrace the diversity instead of trying to squash it. Celebrate the creativity and energy the younger generation bring with them instead of trying to force them into some arbitrary straitjacket of conformity!

As a gay man I'm secure enough in my own identity that it doesn't bother me there are gay men who are into drag, fetish-wear, the club scene, or whatever niche they find appealing. It doesn't bother me that they get some press attention during Pride. Perhaps it's because we've gotten enough varied attention and have more of us "out of the closet" that the majority of people out there don't just automatically assume we gays are all drag queens. Perhaps it's because the gay community as a whole realized we had to learn to hang together or else we'd end up hanging separately. There is strength in working together, and that often involves learning to not be judgemental of the diversity in our own community.

A monoculture might be the fond dream of some Wiccans, but I can honestly say it's not one of my aspirations. Autonomy and creativity and individual responsibility are too important for me personally to sacrifice them for the artificial sense of security generated by conformity.
Well, there's one big difference between the Wiccan community and the gay community. You can choose your religion, but you can't choose your sexuality. The gay community almost HAS to accept its diversity because anyone who prefers relationships with their own gender is by definition gay. Wicca is much more difficult to define, and I hold that there are many in the community who are more attracted to the *trappings* of the religion than the religion itself. And those are the people who I expect to fall away, leaving those who are serious about the religion (who are, in themselves, a very diverse group).

I'll attempt an analogy. It would be like a guy who declared himself gay because he loves Queer Eye, Barbra Streisand, show tunes, and Gloria Gaynor, but he has no interest in having sex with men. You could make the credible argument there that that guy was not actually gay but just enjoyed the subculture.

[DebLipp]

Well, there's one big difference between the Wiccan community and the gay community. You can choose your religion, but you can't choose your sexuality. The gay community almost HAS to accept its diversity because anyone who prefers relationships with their own gender is by definition gay. Wicca is much more difficult to define, and I hold that there are many in the community who are more attracted to the *trappings* of the religion than the religion itself. And those are the people who I expect to fall away, leaving those who are serious about the religion (who are, in themselves, a very diverse group).

I have been Wiccan for sooooo long that I saw the last wave of trendzoids come in (it was the Stevie Nicks crowd in the 80s). Many left, many stayed. It's all good.

Every small population struggles when it becomes trendy. You should see the way old-time tattooists bitch and moan. They used to be outlaws, now they're fashionable. It's hard to give up being an outlaw!

Here's what will happen. Some of the trend-followers will leave. Some will become Serious Witches of Substance.™ Some will stay, but will remain, I don't want to say fluffy, but let's say exoteric. And this is all good.

It is OKAY for people to know that Wicca is an option, and to shop around and see if they like it. You think churches don't have drop-ins experimenting with the flavor of the month? It's okay to be available so that people can find out it's NOT for them.

It is OKAY for people to find us because of a trend, and then stay for life. The value of their religious commitment isn't diminished because they first heard the word "Wicca" on Buffy.

It is OKAY for people to find us and remain exoteric, to become Beltane and Samhain Wiccans. It is okay for people to commit to a level that is comfortable and natural for them, and satisfies their religious needs. EVEN IF IT LOOKS SHALLOW TO US. Religion is not about how impressed we are with the quality of the company we keep.

[BlackMadonna]

It is OKAY for people to find us and remain exoteric, to become Beltane and Samhain Wiccans. It is okay for people to commit to a level that is comfortable and natural for them, and satisfies their religious needs. EVEN IF IT LOOKS SHALLOW TO US. Religion is not about how impressed we are with the quality of the company we keep.

It's even okay to strip at tea dances, provided the monies go to a worth while cause.

You speak wise words. Thank you

[Ben Gruagach]

I have been Wiccan for sooooo long that I saw the last wave of trendzoids come in (it was the Stevie Nicks crowd in the 80s). Many left, many stayed. It's all good.

Every small population struggles when it becomes trendy. You should see the way old-time tattooists bitch and moan. They used to be outlaws, now they're fashionable. It's hard to give up being an outlaw!

Here's what will happen. Some of the trend-followers will leave. Some will become Serious Witches of Substance.™ Some will stay, but will remain, I don't want to say fluffy, but let's say exoteric. And this is all good.

It is OKAY for people to know that Wicca is an option, and to shop around and see if they like it. You think churches don't have drop-ins experimenting with the flavor of the month? It's okay to be available so that people can find out it's NOT for them.

It is OKAY for people to find us because of a trend, and then stay for life. The value of their religious commitment isn't diminished because they first heard the word "Wicca" on Buffy.

It is OKAY for people to find us and remain exoteric, to become Beltane and Samhain Wiccans. It is okay for people to commit to a level that is comfortable and natural for them, and satisfies their religious needs. EVEN IF IT LOOKS SHALLOW TO US. Religion is not about how impressed we are with the quality of the company we keep.

Bravo! I think that post should be voted Best Of The Month! (Do we have a Best Post of the Month vote?)

And a comment about Ben T's comparison with the gay community -- here's a quote:

I'll attempt an analogy. It would be like a guy who declared himself gay because he loves Queer Eye, Barbra Streisand, show tunes, and Gloria Gaynor, but he has no interest in having sex with men. You could make the credible argument there that that guy was not actually gay but just enjoyed the subculture.

That's my point -- people are welcomed into the gay community regardless how gay they might or might not be. There's no queer police that check up on us to make sure we've had our quota of same-sex intimate encounters each week. (Sure, we might have FASHION police, but not SEX police...)

The gay community is a diverse one that respects differences and welcomes everyone regardless of those differences. If you say you're gay, and you're not going to insult me or do outright illegal things like rape others then you're usually welcomed in as One Of Us.

[Edited to correct a typo.]

[DebLipp]

Bravo! I think that post should be voted Best Of The Month! (Do we have a Best Post of the Month vote?)

And a comment about Ben T's comparison with the gay community -- here's a quote:


That's my point -- people are welcomed into the gay community regardless how gay they might or might not be. There's no queer police that check up on us to make sure we've had our quota of same-sex intimate encounters each week. (Sure, we might have FASHION police, but not SEX police...)

The gay community is a diverse one that respects differences and welcomes everyone regardless of those differences. If you say you're gay, and you're not going to insult me or do outright illegal things like rape others then you're usually welcomed in as One Of Us.

[Edited to correct a typo.]

And, as a matter of fact, the gay community has ALSO been learning lessons of inclusivity. You hardly ever see "gay" events anymore, it's "GLBT." The word "queer" is now being used to embrace a wide range of alternative expressions of sexuality. Just as old-school Wiccans have had to learn to be inclusive of more eclectic practices, gays have had to learn to be inclusive of former gay men who are now living as straight women, and other queer sorts who once were disdained.

Inclusivity. It's A Good Thing.™

[Ben Trismegistus]

OK, I give up.

[Moonstoned]

I have been Wiccan for sooooo long that I saw the last wave of trendzoids come in (it was the Stevie Nicks crowd in the 80s). Many left, many stayed. It's all good.

Every small population struggles when it becomes trendy. You should see the way old-time tattooists bitch and moan. They used to be outlaws, now they're fashionable. It's hard to give up being an outlaw!

Here's what will happen. Some of the trend-followers will leave. Some will become Serious Witches of Substance.™ Some will stay, but will remain, I don't want to say fluffy, but let's say exoteric. And this is all good.

It is OKAY for people to know that Wicca is an option, and to shop around and see if they like it. You think churches don't have drop-ins experimenting with the flavor of the month? It's okay to be available so that people can find out it's NOT for them.

It is OKAY for people to find us because of a trend, and then stay for life. The value of their religious commitment isn't diminished because they first heard the word "Wicca" on Buffy.

It is OKAY for people to find us and remain exoteric, to become Beltane and Samhain Wiccans. It is okay for people to commit to a level that is comfortable and natural for them, and satisfies their religious needs. EVEN IF IT LOOKS SHALLOW TO US. Religion is not about how impressed we are with the quality of the company we keep.
:bothsides :clapping:

[Erincelt]

OK, I give up. I say let's have some tea, sit back, and let nature sort it all out. Might take a while, but I figure it has to lead somewhere.