Paganism and Satan

[Pandoras]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

[Fideal]

I don't discount the possibility of Satan, or any other god or anything. I just don't bother with them.

[IndigoMoon]

Wow Pandoras. This is an interesting thread. I don't believe in Satan either. I've always felt that Satan is a christian thing. I would love to know what the Satanist population is all about though.

[Aine of the Fae]

The name Satan is of Hebrew origin, however the concept is found in many cultures.

Most pagans who would self-identify as Satanist most likely don't believe in Satan as a physical entity or anti-God figure, but instead to many modern Satanist, Satan is an archetype for love of self.

[Pandoras]

The name Satan is of Hebrew origin, however the concept is found in many cultures.

I think I understand what you're saying here, but this isn't exactly what I'm talking about. Even though I'm pagan, my view of Satan within Christianity has been as an adversary or tempter. At least in the Hebrew-Scripture-Book-of-Job kind of way. But as the Church grew and Christianity spread, Satan has taken on a different, umm, meaning (for lack of a better word). I'm not really talking about Satan in terms of a concept, in terms of the archetype of evil, but rather an actual entity, an Anti-Christ, the beast, etc etc etc. The guy that we'll meet if it turns out we're wrong and all the Fundamentalist Christians are right. :tongueout


Most pagans who would self-identify as Satanist most likely don't believe in Satan as a physical entity or anti-God figure, but instead to many modern Satanist, Satan is an archetype for love of self.

I've heard of this before. It's the Anton LaVey type stuff right?

[Fane Ayuma]

yea this is interesting, because im usually called a satan worshipper.

As i see it though, christians and islamics created satan, and they can keep him to.

[misschief]

yeah.. i get called a devil worshipper alot, isn't it lovely. i don't believe in satan.. i don't believe in god, i feel that they go hand in hand. i have always seen it as a christian concept.. not exclusively christian, but for the most part only christian. i don't know about pagans and the devil, i've never met any who brought it up. *shrug*

[Morr]

the acrchtype of evil is an invention of the Catholic Church.
full stop.

[misschief]

lol. fair enough.

[misschief]

yea this is interesting, because im usually called a satan worshipper.

As i see it though, christians and islamics created satan, and they can keep him to.
hahahaha. i tried to give you karma for your sig. but i'm all out:(. that's great tho.

[Pandoras]

That's ok. I'll give her karma for you.

[raven grimassi]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

I think it is important to note that "Satan" was unknown to our European ancestors prior to contact with the Middle East region. Satan was an import from the Middle East (talk about terrorism!). Some people may argue that such figures as Loki might represent a type of "devil" figure among ancient Europeans, but I don't personally subscribe to that notion. There is also the argument that Satan, as viewed today, is really a composite being, blended from such figures as the Egyptian Set (and others) with Hebrew concepts.

I'm not sure that Satanists are Pagans (if we're defining Pagans as polytheistic). I've known some Satanists of the "old school" and they did not seem to have a pantheon per se. But perhaps that has changed now.

Personally, I don't believe in the existence of Satan outside of the power of the mind to give such concepts life. I see the forces of Nature as balanced polarities of light and dark. A storm is not bad, and a sunny day is not good. We give it all meaning, but the forces of Nature just are what they are.

Blessings - Raven

[bshore]

I've always been curious about this, too. I wonder if there are certain Pagan beliefs that closely resemble a satan, or worshiping of a dark entity, or if fundamentalists just believe that any religion but theirs is evil. It's interesting, however, that while a fundie christian may raise hell (pun intended) when they see someone wearing a pentacle, but usually won't say anything when a Buddhist monk walks by. Wonder why that is . . .

[DebLipp]

the acrchtype of evil is an invention of the Catholic Church.
full stop.

Not.

The archetype of evil is an invention of the Zoroastrian religion. A messianic branch of that religion, Mithraism, was popular in Rome concurrent with the rise of Christianity. The two competed for followers. Early Christianity ended up borrowing a lot of concepts from Mithraism, including the evil adversary who is an opposite of the good god.

[misschief]

you know.. this is kinda slightly off topic, sorta...... but anyway, the reason many of us pentacle wearers get dubbed satanic is because of.... our pentacle. but, as i'm sure most of you are aware, it has been a symbol of many things throughout history, including christianity.
anyway, in my mind, i just don't understand how a pagan can really believe in satan. in circumstances where previous religions have instilled that infamous 'fear of god' in them, sure. but, satan was supposed to be an angel cast out... that's not very pagan. i can see it for a christian (etc, etc..) witch, but not pagan, wiccan, or 'plain' witch. *shrug*

edited:
i just re-read and thought 'not very pagan' might offend some of you. wasn't meant to, it's just how it came out. it's not supposed to sound like when you hear someone say 'that's not very christian, catholic, jewish, or whatever of you'. ... just to clarify. :)

[teishabee]

I think satan has become blended with the fallen angel lucifer, and many other fallen angels to become one strong concept of evil. Over time he is seen not to be controlled by god bit his own entitiy entirely and often , even by christains as an equal but bad force to god.

As far as I know. Pagans are seen by some christains as going against god. Therefore this must have an evil influence. Many take this as satan has many disguises and takes form in our idols ordieties, to take us from the 'right' path.

[misschief]

well.. if i'm wrong, then i guess i'm wrong (it happens)... but in the church i was forced to attend as a child, satan, lucifer, and the devil were all the same guy... the angel cast out.

[Pandoras]

well.. if i'm wrong, then i guess i'm wrong (it happens)... but in the church i was forced to attend as a child, satan, lucifer, and the devil were all the same guy... the angel cast out.

I was raised Catholic and that's what I was taught in Catechism as well. But there is a big different between what the Church teaches (especially children) and what's in the Bible or what is historically evident. Either way, it's not really a debate I want to get into.

In any case, like I said in my original post, I don't believe in Satan, considering him to be part of the Christian structure and not pagan. However, if there are people that are Christian Witches and Christo Pagans, then Satan must play a role in there somewhere, no? And what about Pagan Satanists? I don't know. Is there such a thing?

[Aine of the Fae]

the acrchtype of evil is an invention of the Catholic Church.
full stop.

The archetype of evil dates to way before the Catholic Church. Satan as a specifically evil entity is relatively new on the spectrum, but he wasn't the first.

[Milliscent]

I don't know if this book has been mentioned here, but a very good read is "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown. Although fiction, the book is about the ancient brotherhood of the Illuminati (yes, they are, or were, actually real) and it is historically correct in many aspects, and goes a long way in answering questions about the origin of Satan and modern day Satanism. In the preface of the book, the author tells the reader which parts of the book are historically accurate and where his information came from.

[misschief]

i bought that book for a flight a few months back.. haven't read it yet tho. it's good?

[Milliscent]

i bought that book for a flight a few months back.. haven't read it yet tho. it's good?


It's very good, and really opened my eyes about the Catholic church. I couldn't put it down! :yayah:

[Pandoras]

Well, I haven't read that one, but I did read The DaVinci Code by him and it was such a disappointment that I doubt I'll pick anything up by him again.

But anyway, back to the topic...

Aren't there any Satanists on MW?

[Aine of the Fae]

The DaVinci Code was fiction purporting to be truth hidden in fiction. His facts are questionable, as is his reasoning.

[Fane Ayuma]

That's ok. I'll give her karma for you.


HER!!!!

HER!!!!!!!

WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH YOUR HER????????????

thanks anyway, its the thought that counts.

[Aelfoak]

Satan is already at work today......and its called Terrorism!!

[teishabee]

Satan is already at work today......and its called Terrorism!!
Not thats called humans

[Pandoras]

HER!!!!

HER!!!!!!!

WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH YOUR HER????????????

thanks anyway, its the thought that counts.


Oops! Sorry! My bad! Him Him Him! :hehehe:

[Ron]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.
I'm too lazy to read through the thread to see if this has already been said (rhymes!)... but anyway

Imo: Satan is the face (aka idol) of evil. Satan has no one body or mind. Satan is all evil. :devil: < that smiley, as a representation of evil, is Satan. But I do not believe Satan is a person, with thoughts and such, rather just the essence of evil, which attacks all good.

But this is me, a new Catholic with Evangelical influences, not to mention Islamic and pagan influences as well.

And no, I don't go to church to confess my sins, I usually do it right when it happens, directly to Notre Dame and Our Lord.

:thewave: don't mock me cause I'm Catholic ... :)

[SavyrnGate]

As Rhys has said, "Satan" is the embodiment of what is concidered "evil" by the religion that adopts him. (Aww, little Satan adoptions...)

I think why you see some pagans refer to Satan is because of the constant attention that he gets now-a-days. He's an every day figure-head. It's common place to see a depiction of Satan on a television ad to sell milk. He's almost become a buzz word.

Also, as it is to my knowledge, most modern Satanists do not believe in the true being himself, rather the intelligence and nature of the figure...so it's sort of an interesting loop between the two, I suppose. It seems the only people who believe in the true body of Satan, or Lucifer, are those following the Catholic or Christian worshipping path to at least some degree.

Though, I believe the word "Satan" has lost much of its original meaning, as many public ideas do in time. It's more of a term for evil than an attachment to eternal damnation in some cases.

[teishabee]

I think the modern terms satanist is like the term dianic. I forget who said it but it wasnt my fault my choosen religions name doesnt fit. Satanist thats Ive known worship lucifer and see him not as the bible states but oneness with the universe. I think this is where the term luciferian has developed and there are arguments among both as to the proper terminology.

[Ron]

As Rhys has said, "Satan" is the embodiment of what is concidered "evil" by the religion that adopts him. (Aww, little Satan adoptions...)

I think why you see some pagans refer to Satan is because of the constant attention that he gets now-a-days. He's an every day figure-head. It's common place to see a depiction of Satan on a television ad to sell milk. He's almost become a buzz word.

Also, as it is to my knowledge, most modern Satanists do not believe in the true being himself, rather the intelligence and nature of the figure...so it's sort of an interesting loop between the two, I suppose. It seems the only people who believe in the true body of Satan, or Lucifer, are those following the Catholic or Christian worshipping path to at least some degree.

Though, I believe the word "Satan" has lost much of its original meaning, as many public ideas do in time. It's more of a term for evil than an attachment to eternal damnation in some cases.
*applauds* merci

[Fane Ayuma]

Satan is already at work today......and its called Terrorism!!

Like bush.he is the devils advocate.

and Thatcher

and chainey,

Rumsfeld

Stop, i gotta stop, or else ill start ranting.

[Aes Sidhe]

Like bush.he is the devils advocate.

and Thatcher

and chainey,

Rumsfeld

Stop, i gotta stop, or else ill start ranting.


*rolls eyes* I believe this belongs in politics lol lol.

[Fane Ayuma]

i know thats why i stopped myself.its so hard to not talk..... about it.........

Scotty accent:

"i de nae hiw lung ah caen keep it togeher cap'n!!!"

[David19]

I got inspired by Semjaza resurrecting the thread in the books forum so i'd though i'd have a go at resurrection, Lol.

For me, i do believe in Satan, i don't view him as 'evil', i see him as just another deity that exists, i'm not actually a Satanist (but who knows what the future holds?), my views of him are kind of based on Diane Vera's views and beliefs (she's a Theistic Satanist who runs the Church of Azazel).

I view him as being Yahweh's 'enemy', not as in a 'cosmic' war (although for gods, i suppose everything happens on a cosmic scale), i don't see how their 'war' affects anything else, just like other deities don't get on (or other humans not getting on).

[Meadhbh]

I don't discount the possibility of Satan, or any other god or anything. I just don't bother with them.

Thats pretty much the same way I feel about the whole thing. There may be such a being called satan or one that is satan like. But since I don't follow a belief system that includes them wither satan exists or not isn't really any of my concern. As far as satanist who call themselves pagans I've known those that do and those that don't. I think its really a case by case basis if they want to use the pagan title or not.

[Semjaza]

I doubt the existence of Satan as an entity of absolute moral evil (I don't have any morals per se, the idea of 'evil' is too subjective to attach to anything, and shit does indeed happen.) Satan with a capital 'S' is an invention of the Church; ha-satan or the adversary may or may not have been a god that rivaled the Judeo-Christian god, but it's been so long since I studied angelology and related subjects that I'm no longer certain. (Though if Shiva could be considered 'Satan' by Muslims, couldn't there be a god behind the concept of 'Satan' as considered by Christians?)

I really don't know how to make that more understandable, but I can make it more confusing by saying that:

I worship pagan gods that have at times been labelled "Devil" and call them by this term. In this sense I am a devil-worshipper, but not a Satan-worshipper.

If there was a god that was followed by a host of spirits called angels and then cast a third of that host away for various petty reasons, I'm rooting for the fallen ones.

My inner jury is still out on how the legend of how the Watchers taught humans herbalism, smithcraft, witchcraft etc and were damned for this, fits in with pagan witchcraft, not to mention the Light-Bearer, and the Scapegoat... but now I'm really off topic and will stop.

Cheers,

Semjaza (who is in love with the idea of a war in Heaven, but doesn't really believe in 'Heaven' and hasn't yet been able to rationalize away her love for European pagan gods and goddesses with her love for the fallen angels of Judeo-Christian tradition....)

FFFF

Edited to say thank you to David19 :)

[Toby Stimpson]

I'm not quite sure what to think right now, honestly. Recently I've been reading "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. I was always aware and studied to a small degree the old idea of adaptation and evoluntion of deities. In her book, Ms. Armstrong basicly formulates the idea that (and it might not be new) that the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam began as the Canaanite Creator God El, and that along the way he took on several different aspects...including the arabic god Allah. Now, when it coems to the devil, although I very much disagree with how he is used in Christianity today...the idea of an evil adversery is not a new idea and I disagree that he was just 'invented'. Zoroastrianism, which was the monotheistic fire religion of ancient Persia, still practiced today...definitly revolved around a good vs evil duality so common in Christianity today. The Good god Ahura Mazda, representing good actions and order always being opposed by Ahriman, the evil principal of disorder and negetive conduct/thought. Unlike in some forms of Modern Christianity...this devil like persona is not used to fear us into the truth of God, but more as an example (albeit a bit over dramatic) of the negetive forces in the world. According to Zoroastrian teachings, one must choose to side with good or evil, and this is carried out in thoughts and actions...soemwhat akin to the karma system of India. Good and positive thoughts and actions like compassion, peace, non violence...etc, are attributed with siding with Ahura Mazda. Lies, evil or harmful thoughts, unprovoked senseless violence, and soemthing even more mundane like stealing is seen as siding with Ahriman. Now, whether or not the Devil in his current form was invented I cant say for sure...and I cant have an opinion on it until I really look into it. I believe that perhaps he is an evoluntion, but HOW he is used I definitly agree with. Its interesting to note though that, by and large, Satan isnt as important in islam as in some forms of Christianity. Right action seems to be mostly part of the Muslim goals...despite all this talk of 'great shaitan' described by some fundamentalists. I think...in the past the original idea or concept of the devil was very much like a Zoroastrian idea...but as times went on...he somehow became this sort of nursery bogey that you tell to children to obey. I know I have never witnessed anything that I could consider absolute evil, if anything liek that exists...Ive seen things that are monstrous but in some underlying ways explainable...absolute evil would I think be unexplainable.

Satanism, thats a different thing entirely. Like the idea behind it...that is the rejection of conventional western morals for those that would bring pleasure is interesting. There are different forms of Satanists and I have seen Pagans who, for whatever reason the idea presented work with their own spirituality.

With this question, Ic ant say Im sure what to think...but am very much open to all sides of the spectrum.

Namaste

Tobias

[Amythyst]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

I pretty much associate the concept of Satan with Christianity myself. That's just me. To each his own. I have a friend, a young woman, who is a Satanist. Nicest person you'd ever want to meet, a soccer mom-- those sterotypes can be h&ll on everyone.

[PeatBog]

I don't believe in Yahweh or Satan, but whatever works for People. :wave:

[morningstar2651]

the acrchtype of evil is an invention of the Catholic Church.
full stop.That's actually fairly accurate. The Jewish ha'Satan is strikingly different than the Christian Satan. In Judaism, ha'Satan is an angel that does the Will of God. He tempts people to stray from worship of God to reveal how strong their faith is. The book of Job illustrates this very well.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

I do not believe Satan is a concept which originated in Christianity or Islam. The original myth of ultimate good vs ultimate evil was found in Zoroastrianism. It therefore appears to me that the Satanic principle existed LOOOOOOONG before either of Christianity or Islam.



And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

I am not a Satanist, but have I do have definite opinions on the religion that are here all free to accept, reject or ignore, whether partially or in full.

To me, if we wish to view Satan for the standpoint of Christianity, a comparison between Jehovah and Satan is quite enlightening. I first think a comparison between Satan and Prometheus can shed some light on who or what Satan really is or represents.

First of all, as Satan supposedly appears in the garden of eden myth, (I use the word 'supposedly' because the traditional Jewish view of Satan is markedly different from what the Christians warped Satan into), Satan is no better nor worse than Prometheus. Satan, as the serpent, said 'hey, if you eat the fruit of this tree you will gain knowledge (that you aren't supposed to have).' Prometheus did much the same in giving fire to mankind (which humanity also wasn't supposed to have.) In both fables, Satan and Prometheus are both no more than liberators of mankind. This is exactly why the Gnostics viewed Satan as the true God and Jehovah as a false demiurge, whose ego made him think he was better than everything else. (I mean really, what's with the 'you shall have no other gods before me' bit? Have you ever had a friend that wanted you to put them first above everyone else, even your own family? That's Jehovah. No wonder the Gnostics came to the conclusions that they did.)

When Jehovah finds out they ate the fruit of this tree, notice what he has to say about it;

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us , to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So really, the only reason Jehovah was ticked about the incident with the tree, is because he feared man would 'become like one of us' and if man also ate of the tree of life, he would 'live for ever and ever.' In other words, God (no pun intended) forbid man should become like God and be his equal. That's as bad as a boss sabotaging your chances of getting a promotion because your boss' ego demands you 'stay in your place.' Can you find a story like this anywhere where Satan EVER acted in such an egotistical manner?

Aside from that, I know a man who was raised by his grandma. She would leave a jar of jellybeans out while he was growing up and tell him not to touch them. She would then count the jellybeans and if one were missing, she would beat him. He has had years of therapy as a result. How is such sickness any worse than what Jehovah did to Adam and Eve regarding the tree? Would you leave a blowtorch around a one year old and tell them not to touch it? It would be heinously stupid to do such a thing, in my opinion.

So, in order to curse man for eating what he wasn't supposed to, Jehovah decides man will have to work and toil all of the days of his life. Pity that. I wonder how much of a curse that is, given that I have always enjoyed my work. At the same time, Jehovah doesn't ONLY punish the alleged wrong-doers, Adam and Eve. Instead he punishes all of humanity that will ever be born thereafter. Even a 5 year old knows you punish the ones who did the wrong, which would be Adam and Eve only, if you are truly just. Where is any evidence, fable or otherwise, that Satan ever did anything so ridiculously stupid?

Did Satan have 42 boys killed for calling an old man 'bald-head?' No, He did not. Did Satan kill the entire population of the earth with a flood, except for a few people? No, he did not. Did Satan provide instruction on how to buy, sell and own other human beings as slaves, including little kids, which were to be owned as possessions for life? No, he did not.

So, even within respect to the texts of Christianity, I find it very hard to believe that Satan is all evil. Satan has been unfairly painted based on the false dichotomy presented by certain religions. That false dichotomy states you have two choices, ultimate good or ultimate evil, yet the texts themselves are enough to throw severe doubt on the idea that one of them is ultimately good and the other ultimately evil.

So we end up with Satan being the scapegoat for all the evils that exist in the hearts of people. And by blaming that evil on a force that exists outside of ourselves, rather than admitting the urge to kill or cheat on a partner was born, existed and died within ourselves, we never, ever, not even once, are required to accept responsibility for our own actions or urges, and thereby subdue them by making peace with those urges by facing them and owning up to them.

Look at the 15th trump in the tarot. We see Satan represented as Capricron, an earth sign, concerned with all things physical. That's what Satan is. All of those animalistic urges we humans have, whether it be the urge to screw (or be screwed by) everything that moves, the urge to satiate our hunger, the fight or flight response (which have definite physical effects), the urge to live, the need for physical touch, etc. Even many of the Hermetic groups persisted in demonizing these physical, animalistic and evolutionary urges, in claiming that all things physical & material are somehow 'lesser than' the alleged 'higher' or 'spiritual' matters. You can see this today in the LBRP, where the EARTH element is banished at all 4 points of the compass.

Why should we banish the earth element and all things on the physical plane? Why banish these very necessary physical urges which have insured, from an evolutionary standpoint, that our species survives? Why run like a coward from these things, rather than boldly, bravely and courageously look them in the eye and deal with them? How can we keep the elements balanced when we wish to pretend that one element, the material, physical and earth, doesn't exist as we so busily banish it?

You ignore Satan and all these things he represents at your own peril and you will end up bound like a slave to these physical urges, or you look these urges in the eye and find a way to deal with them and free yourself.

So yes, Satan is very real, no matter how you view him. And no, Satan is not evil.

[Eleutheria]

What Sweet is the Truth said, that's very close to how I view things. I am a Pagan. I am also a Theistic Satanist. I am a polytheist, Satan is one god among many. To me, he is a liberator, a friend to anyone who wishes to free themselves from tyranny and a foe to tyrants themselves (Jehovah is but one example of tyranny). He's not "evil", nor is he, exactly, "good". I think any of the Unseen that are at the level where we might consider them to be "gods" are change agents, that's part of their makeup. Freedom is sometimes a very messy, very dangerous change for people. I happen to believe it's a necessary one, though, that it's better than bondage. As much as other Pagan religions inform my path, I think my Satanism is the core of it, the philosophy that drives how I interact with the world, and the deity I've had the longest-standing relationship with.

[sari0009]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

This is how I see it. Satan does not fit in pluralism or polytheology very well because he embodies the opposing lesser side within a theological dualism (which is not the same thing as duality).

Dualism splits the Universe into male and female who are constantly at war with each other (warrior on top hierarchy, I believe).

Duality speaks of splitting into two, in which the two objects/relations/operations are interchangeable in ways that won't destroy but lend toward symmetry.
Paganism tends toward pluralism.

As to claims that Satan of Satanism isn't the one from the bible or the many prototypes (such as Zororastrianism and Mithraism that claimed Zororaster as its founder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism), I believe), well then why call him Satan? What of his origins? They do leave a trail and they do have their effect no matter how reinvented Satan may be to many.

[ninurta2008]

The christian satan is really the persian Ahriman, and so is the Islamic one.

The jewish satan is more faithful to YHWH than the average jew, so much so that regardless of how hard you try, he wants to make sure YHWH sees your every flaw and just how hard you try to absorb the temptation and not fall to it.

Ha'satan in some ways in not foreign to ancient near eastern paganism, but to my limited knowledge is foreign to persian paganism and Zoroastrianism. The idea of an angel that reports to God, or a god, of mankinds deeds, though not necessarily the part of tempting people, Ilabrat does tell Anu what people do wrong.

[Terra Mater]

The whole line of "Satan is a Christian concept" came out of the early days of the Pagan movement. Up to a certain point, Pagan was a label others gave you to denote you were not acceptable. In the last century we saw two major movements erupt side by side.

The first, which we refer to now as Pagans were those who embraced the Pagan moniker and wanted to show they were good people in spite of not going to church and not having a religiously imposed moral code.

The second, decided fine, if you want to think I slaughter babies and worship some cloven hooved demon it only shows your own ignorance and we are gonna play on that took the Satanist moniker as yet another way to piss em off.

Since the first group was more passive and wanted fewer battles, they distanced themselves from the second group by coming up with the idea that "Satan is a Christian construct" while at the same time claiming that "Christians borrowed or stole all their ideas from other religions".

This led to endless battles in which Pagan groups ostracized Satanist groups because of the added controversy the Satanists bring to the table. From there, both groups picked and chose from the historical "proofs" that suited the position they chose to take.

Its bogus, but its as valid as anything else. Veracity and validity are seldom interchangable terms.

In the last decade, there has been more commingling of the paths. I have to wonder though if it is because we are evolving or because we now have a generation of kids raised by Pagan parents and Christian grandparents that have little leftin the religious realm to rebel against the parents with except for Satanism. Likeit or not, there are and always have been a large number of youth drawn to anything that would shock their parents. Some of them grow past it and go back to the faith they were raised with, others grow and evolve in their chosen faith, and there are some who grow but fail to evolve.

[Dumunzi]

People may very well bash me for saying this but I do not consider Satanism or Theistic Satanism(There is a difference in those two religions) to be Paganism. Not. At. All.

[Burning Angel]

People may very well bash me for saying this but I do not consider Satanism or Theistic Satanism(There is a difference in those two religions) to be Paganism. Not. At. All.

Why is that, though?

~Jon :boing:

[ninurta2008]

People may very well bash me for saying this but I do not consider Satanism or Theistic Satanism(There is a difference in those two religions) to be Paganism. Not. At. All.
Me either. It would be more atheistic or in the case of Theistic Satanism possibly abrahamic (though I really don't know, and can admit that beyond the laveyan path of satanism, I am in the dark of even the dark religion)

[Torey]

The point remains that one needs to first define 'Pagan' before attempting to say that any of the 'Satanisms' are or are not 'Pagan'.

Some define 'Pagan' as being 'all religions and paths outside of the Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian/Semitic religions and paths'.

Some define 'Pagan' in the context of the 'Divine' is viewed - is the Divine immanent or transcendent? If the Divine is transcendent (the Divine Source/Spirit/etc. is unreachable - separate from the 'mundane' Universe), these people may consider this to be non-Pagan. If the Divine is immanent (present in all things, approachable), these people may consider this to be Pagan. I personally define 'Pagan' in this context.

If one defines 'Pagan' as 'those who view the Divine as immanent and present within and without the Universe' then Theistic Satanism would be Pagan. If one defines 'Pagan' as 'all religions and paths outside of the Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian/Semitic religions and paths' then Theistic Satanism would NOT be Pagan.

Atheistic Satanism, on the other hand, could be considered Pagan if 'Pagan' is defined as 'Divine being present in all things, approachable' if one considered himself to be inherently Divine. If the Satanist did not believe in Spirit or Divinity period, then he may not be 'Pagan' by the definition aforementioned, but he may still be 'Pagan' if one considers his path to fall outside of the Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian/Semitic religions and paths.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

In my Tradition , Sheathan , is female ,
and the Mother Of The Kcebealla...

The counterpoint to the Qabalah...

And , our Faery Tree , is known as the
Tree of Life , and the Tree Of Knowledge
Of Good And Evil...

Same with the later misunderstanding of
Lucifer...the young girl , with black angel
wings...

Guardians , messengers , and representatives ,
of an older Tradition , later condemned , and
altered...:uhhuhuh:

( And yes...I practice , what we know , as Sheathanic Mgieck... )

[Stormbeard]

An archfiend by any other name...

Your point is null and void. Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian church, nor the pantomime villain they call Satan/Lucifer/THUR DEYVIL.

[Nox_Mortus]

An archfiend by any other name...

Your point is null and void. Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian church, nor the pantomime villain they call Satan/Lucifer/THUR DEYVIL.

That's higly debatable, if it has nothing to do with Christianity then why is it named after a christian deity?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

You talking to me ?

Or somebody you think was making some point ,
you are imagining ?

Because all I was doing was posting my information ,
regarding my pagan path...valid , real , and nothing
to do with your brand of modern Satanism...

Have your path...I have mine...:thumbsup:

You have tried this tactic , and arguement before...

Did not work then...won't now...

Just enjoy what you believe...I know I enjoy my path...:uhhuhuh:




An archfiend by any other name...

Your point is null and void. Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian church, nor the pantomime villain they call Satan/Lucifer/THUR DEYVIL.

[Stormbeard]

You talking to me ?

Nope

[Stormbeard]

That's higly debatable, if it has nothing to do with Christianity then why is it named after a christian deity?
Marketing

[Nox_Mortus]

Marketing

sure, but combining that with the fact that satanists also have things like the ten stanic commandments and the 7 satanc sins, and the fact that Anton Lavey goes at length to disuss Christianity in his books, saying that Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity is pretty silly. Also the fact that the ceremonial magic included in his books is heavily rooted in Christianity as well.

[Stormbeard]

sure, but combining that with the fact that satanists also have things like the ten stanic commandments and the 7 satanc sins, and the fact that Anton Lavey goes at length to disuss Christianity in his books, saying that Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity is pretty silly. Also the fact that the ceremonial magic included in his books is heavily rooted in Christianity as well.
I'm not talking about Anton LeVay

[Burning Angel]

sure, but combining that with the fact that satanists also have things like the ten stanic commandments and the 7 satanc sins, and the fact that Anton Lavey goes at length to disuss Christianity in his books, saying that Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity is pretty silly. Also the fact that the ceremonial magic included in his books is heavily rooted in Christianity as well.

All ceremonial magic is heavily related to Christianity lol...but you're missing that Satan is Jewish in origin, and I believe the original concept predates the whole Jewish thing anyway.

And then if Satan is named after Marketing, isn't it possible that the Nine Satanic Rules of the Earth - not ten, unless I'm thinking of something else...and the 7 Satanic Sins, and the discussion of Christianity, are all marketing as well, just on a grander scale? What about the Temple of Set? Set isn't a Christian deity :P

Also, I think Satanists are in a tight spot with regard to their religious categorization. They're not Christian, but we keep trying to peg them as Christian...and they're really more Pagan in a lot of ways, but we keep trying to lock them out of that as well. Might that be because we're still afraid of being burned as Satanists? Just something to consider.

~Jon :boing:

[Nox_Mortus]

I'm not talking about Anton LeVay

Well considering that most people consider him the founder and largest influence on modern Satanism I think his work is pretty relevant regardless, maybe you aren't influenced by Christianity, but Satanism as a whole certainly is to a pretty large degree.

[Stormbeard]

Well considering that most people consider him the founder and largest influence on modern Satanism I think his work is pretty relevant regardless, maybe you aren't influenced by Christianity, but Satanism as a whole certainly is to a pretty large degree.

"Most people" consider Satanism to be devil worship.

Most people are wrong.

[Rudas Starblaze]

theres levay satanism.

and theres humanism, which is the original "satanism" that levay studied and capitolized on and published tying in the christian "satan". which the term devil did not come about in the bible until the end of the new testament and strongly latter as the christian faith grew. the term "devil" was given to pretty much any pagan deity with the exception of a very select few that the catholic faith deemed as saints due to their goodness and kindness.

"humanism" is actually very closely tied to paganism in most respects. with the exception of worshiping a deity.

[David19]

Me either. It would be more atheistic or in the case of Theistic Satanism possibly abrahamic (though I really don't know, and can admit that beyond the laveyan path of satanism, I am in the dark of even the dark religion)

I don't think Theistic Satanism would be Abrahamic, anymore than Christianity would be Jewish, granted, Satanism has things in common with Christianity, and it's origins in Christianity, just like Christianity wouldn't exist without Judaism, but, that doesn't make them the same, or that related. Personally, I'm not sure if Theistic Satanists or other kinds would be Pagan, that's for each individual Satanist to decide, I, personally, don't mind either way.

[ninurta2008]

I don't think Theistic Satanism would be Abrahamic, anymore than Christianity would be Jewish, granted, Satanism has things in common with Christianity, and it's origins in Christianity, just like Christianity wouldn't exist without Judaism, but, that doesn't make them the same, or that related. Personally, I'm not sure if Theistic Satanists or other kinds would be Pagan, that's for each individual Satanist to decide, I, personally, don't mind either way.
That's true. Though I found one theistic satanism to be possibly pagan, church of Azazel, but what exactly would make it pagan? Abrahamic? Or what?

[David19]

I don't think Diane Vera's Church of Azazel (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/) is Pagan or Abrahamic, I don't think she defines Satanism as being Pagan, but, she also doesn't define it as being Abrahamic, I'd say Satanists, some branches of it anyway, might have a category of their own - Satanism.

[ninurta2008]

I don't think Diane Vera's Church of Azazel (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/) is Pagan or Abrahamic, I don't think she defines Satanism as being Pagan, but, she also doesn't define it as being Abrahamic, I'd say Satanists, some branches of it anyway, might have a category of their own - Satanism.
Elsewhere i thought she did. Okay, thanks for clarifying that!

I still can't give you good karma, wonder why?:thumbsup:

[Darth Brooks]

It's always been my understanding and personal belief that Satan is not part of the pagan deity structure, that Satan is a concept in Christianity and Islam. However, I'm starting to see that there are Pagans who do believe in Satan and possiby even Pagans that might identify themselves as Satanists.

So if you are one of these people, please raise you hand and tell me more! And if you're not one of these people, well, I want to hear from you too.

It is a fact that the idea of Satan has pagan roots, just as the ideas of Jehovah and Jesus Christ have pagan roots.

Many pagans argue that Satanists aren't really pagans because they label themselves after a figure they presume to be limited to the Abrahamic mythos. I think it is more important and vital to identify people as "pagan" based on how they do their rituals. Despite the typical anti-Christian edge that can be found in most Satanism, their practices very closely resemble many of the practices that are shared by most contemporary pagans. The use of incense, the calling of the four cardinal directions, the use of athames, so on and so forth. If you look at Satanism strictly as an ideology, it's tempting to think of it as just an offshoot of Christianity; but if you look at it as a practice, it's quite clearly more pagan than not. I would argue it fits in the left hand path or vamachara side of contemporary Western paganism.

After all, there are pagans who use or are otherwise influenced by things like Tarot and Kabbalah, and Tarot has absorbed quite a bit of Judaic influence, while Kabbalah is completely Judaic in its purest sense. If Satanists "can't be pagan" because they share some elements with other Abrahamic belief systems, than neither can pagans who use Tarot or Kabbalah. Margot Adler can take a walk.

[David19]

Elsewhere i thought she did. Okay, thanks for clarifying that!

I still can't give you good karma, wonder why?:thumbsup:

It's been awhile since I've really read Diana Vera's site, but, I didn't think she did identify Satanism with Paganism, I think she did used to be a Pagan (a Goddess worshipper, who also had an experience with Satan), and, I think, she is still close to the Pagan community, and there are some instances of her worshipping the same Gods as some Pagans (e.g. if you read the article 'The Rising Gods of the Modern West - pantheon of the Church of Azazel' (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/risingGods.html), she, and some members of her group, do worship Ishtar, Pan, Prometheus, Sophia (although, to be fair, she's more a Gnostic/early Christian Goddess) and Lilith (although, traditionally, she is associated with Satanic imagery, some Pagans worship her (the ones that don't whitewash her origins, and turn her into a "mother Goddess who was demonized by the Patriarchy" like some Pagans do)). That said, I'm pretty sure she doesn't say Satanism is Paganism, although they do have links and they can be considered allies in their fight for religious freedom and against theocratic fundamentalists.

Also, don't worry about the karma (you probably haven't spread it enough around the community), thanks for the thought, though :) :thumbsup:.


It is a fact that the idea of Satan has pagan roots, just as the ideas of Jehovah and Jesus Christ have pagan roots.

Many pagans argue that Satanists aren't really pagans because they label themselves after a figure they presume to be limited to the Abrahamic mythos. I think it is more important and vital to identify people as "pagan" based on how they do their rituals. Despite the typical anti-Christian edge that can be found in most Satanism, their practices very closely resemble many of the practices that are shared by most contemporary pagans. The use of incense, the calling of the four cardinal directions, the use of athames, so on and so forth. If you look at Satanism strictly as an ideology, it's tempting to think of it as just an offshoot of Christianity; but if you look at it as a practice, it's quite clearly more pagan than not. I would argue it fits in the left hand path or vamachara side of contemporary Western paganism.

After all, there are pagans who use or are otherwise influenced by things like Tarot and Kabbalah, and Tarot has absorbed quite a bit of Judaic influence, while Kabbalah is completely Judaic in its purest sense. If Satanists "can't be pagan" because they share some elements with other Abrahamic belief systems, than neither can pagans who use Tarot or Kabbalah. Margot Adler can take a walk.

I can agree with that, although, I'd say it's up to individual Satanists whether they want to identify as Pagans or not, just like it's up to individual Hindus whether they want to identify as Pagan (some do, some see it as an insult, etc).

[Burning Angel]

I like what Darth said about the practice/belief thing and how the various religious "categories" mix. To use yet another metal analogy, I'm a metalhead - but I like some Grendel, the dark electro band - they use keyboards exclusively, but they're dark and hard and pretty badass. I can identify with that. I'm a metalhead, but I like even lighter rock like the Stones and Beatles - it all comes from the same root. Edgier, underground-tending music with a pounding beat - whatever's good.

Shouldn't religion be the same way? People always argue about stuff not being "Christian" enough, and don't bother with the religious concepts for that reason - why should pagans be the same? Because Satanism is metal, and I dig anything that's metal. :thumbsup:

By Star And Sword,
~Jon~ :boing:

[ninurta2008]

Is there a form of Satanism that worships mesopotamian deities besides Church of Azazel?

Yezidism doesn't count, they just have a positive view of Azazel. I find it interesting that they still worship tausi melek/tammuz. Yezidism doesn't count because its not satanism.

[Torey]

Is there a form of Satanism that worships mesopotamian deities besides Church of Azazel?

Yezidism doesn't count, they just have a positive view of Azazel. I find it interesting that they still worship tausi melek/tammuz. Yezidism doesn't count because its not satanism.

I'm sure there are. The thing is that most Theistic Satanists don't work in groups, they're solitary practitioners. If there are groups out there, then it's difficult to say if they advertise themselves online or not. There are hundreds of groups out there - you just have to search for them.

[ninurta2008]

how do I find them? I am searching for all sorts of paths but you barely find info on any.

[Torey]

Hmmm well I would honestly just try Googling different search combos. Like "theistic satanism"+"mesopotamian", "satanism"+"church"+"(insert name of any deity here)"...things like that. I wish I had better advice on the matter, but it's so hard to find groups anyway, much less those kinds of specific ones.

[David19]

Is there a form of Satanism that worships mesopotamian deities besides Church of Azazel?


I don't think the Church of Azazel does worship Mesopotamian deities, aside from Ishtar/Inanna, Azazel/Satan was more a Jewish demon, an opponent of YHWH.

[sleepycat]

how do I find them? I am searching for all sorts of paths but you barely find info on any.

Might want to do a google on "Temple of Set".

[ninurta2008]

I don't think the Church of Azazel does worship Mesopotamian deities, aside from Ishtar/Inanna, Azazel/Satan was more a Jewish demon, an opponent of YHWH.
Eek....I cross-referenced Azazel as Tammuz because of the Yezidi Tausi Melek, sorry bout that!:toofless: