Why all this stuff about christianity?

[Velvet]

I've noticed that Christianity is one of the only religions being picked apart on this forum.

[Shanti]

I am asking questions because I have been doing that all my life. We live under the dominance of a Christian society..to me its natural to want to understand. :)

[Velvet]

I am asking questions because I have been doing that all my life. We live under the dominance of a Christian society..to me its natural to want to understand. :)
But we don't want to understand moslems, even though we are fighting them?

[Shanti]

I am conserned mostly with what I live with day to day and my upbringing. I still look at other faiths. And from what I see so far Islam isnt much differant than Christianity. But considering my own daily life, Christanity has the largest influance.

[Morr]

But we don't want to understand moslems, even though we are fighting them?


ummm..
i guess cause theres no Islamic Witches on this board
:lol:

[Pol]

I think because Christianity is a very old religion, it has changed many times and takes part in many cultures, and most of us come from a culture that has been attached to it in some way, so we're trying to pick apart the good from the bad and figure out what it is about this religion that has given it so much strength.

[Pol]

Also, because it's a religion heavy in guidelines and theology, as opposed to many other religions.

[Xentor]

If you like to pick apart another religion, feel free!

[Jaroson]

But we don't want to understand moslems, even though we are fighting them?

Well, I aint fighting moslems!! :grrrrr: Or Christians or Mormons or quakers or Sikhs or anyone else.

I personally don't know of any moslem witches although whether there are any is anyones guess. There may be some on here? Are there??

But back to my original point, it is terrorists whom we are fighting, of any religion, race or creed, and any person or persons who would limit our freedom and the freedom of others, not a religion, even though these acts are at the moment performed in the name of that religion.

[Aine of the Fae]

Because in the culture(s) most heavily represented on this board, Christianity is the most prevalent religion. Most of us grew up with it.

[Bec_W]

Probably because most of the people on this board were christian at one time or another. Personally i've not seen it being picked appart as such, but then i haven't really followed all the Christian threads.

[Velvet]

Well, I aint fighting moslems!! :grrrrr: Or Christians or Mormons or quakers or Sikhs or anyone else.

I personally don't know of any moslem witches although whether there are any is anyones guess. There may be some on here? Are there??

But back to my original point, it is terrorists whom we are fighting, of any religion, race or creed, and any person or persons who would limit our freedom and the freedom of others, not a religion, even though these acts are at the moment performed in the name of that religion.
oops sorry! said that wrong.

[Whisper9999]

I've noticed that Christianity is one of the only religions being picked apart on this forum.

Thank you for noticing!

Imo there's a natural tension between traditional Christianity (or any theistic religion) that claims exclusivity. The bylaws of this web site claim universalism as really the one and only mantra that all must utter to post here.

So is it any wonder that people pick and tear at one of the religions that attacks universalism at its core?

[Whisper9999]

I am asking questions because I have been doing that all my life. We live under the dominance of a Christian society..to me its natural to want to understand. :)

I respectfully disagree. This is now an illogical reason to pick and bite at Christianity.

We are definitely in a post-Christian era in our fair country. There is nothing Christian about our society any more from the leadership to education to the media to the general populace. The shift began occurring in the 50's and went into full transition in the 60's as our country willingly shed every vestige of its Christian past.

Imo as a traditional theist, I think of course that it was a huge mistake. The 60's saw an unprecedented rise in violent crime, the destruction of the nuclear family and a host of other social ills. But I know that most will disagree with me and that's fine.

But, all I have to say is this: let's see where you guys take our country. In another fifty years, will be really be better off? It'll be interesting to see...

[Shanti]

I respectfully disagree. This is now an illogical reason to pick and bite at Christianity.

We are definitely in a post-Christian era in our fair country. There is nothing Christian about our society any more from the leadership to education to the media to the general populace. The shift began occurring in the 50's and went into full transition in the 60's as our country willingly shed every vestige of its Christian past.

Imo as a traditional theist, I think of course that it was a huge mistake. The 60's saw an unprecedented rise in violent crime, the destruction of the nuclear family and a host of other social ills. But I know that most will disagree with me and that's fine.

But, all I have to say is this: let's see where you guys take our country. In another fifty years, will be really be better off? It'll be interesting to see...
Excuse me but all I do is ask questions in an attempt to understand. Whats wrong with that? Also you obviously dont live in my predominately Christian town either. These are my true reasons in my perspective there is nothing to disagree with.

[Whisper9999]

I think because Christianity is a very old religion, it has changed many times and takes part in many cultures, and most of us come from a culture that has been attached to it in some way, so we're trying to pick apart the good from the bad and figure out what it is about this religion that has given it so much strength.

My observation is that people on this board generally dislike virtually everything about traditional Christianity. Let's face it: "one God, one faith, one Scripture" is not going to be popular with the pagan crowd.

And I also disagree that generaly people are trying to "pick apart the good from the bad". Usually, what I see is that people try to make the following general line of reasoning:

1. Gnostic Christianity existed somewhat simultaneously with traditional Christianity.
2. Gnostic Christianity has a lot of simularities with paganism.
3. Therefore, traditional Christianity is incorrect and should be picked apart.
4. Furthermore, gnostic Christianity is much more correct of the two and should be praised and lauded and quoted.

And I'm not finding fault: if I were in your shoes, I'd do the same thing probably...

[Whisper9999]

Excuse me but all I do is ask questions in an attempt to understand. Whats wrong with that? Also you obviously dont live in my predominately Christian town either. These are my true reasons in my perspective there is nothing to disagree with.

What's wrong with what?

[Shanti]

What's wrong with what? You were the one that said you disagreed with my reasons!!!!

[Whisper9999]

Excuse me but all I do is ask questions in an attempt to understand. Whats wrong with that? Also you obviously dont live in my predominately Christian town either. These are my true reasons in my perspective there is nothing to disagree with.

If you live in a small town in the Bible belt, I stand corrected. But other than that, I just don't see it. Consider Birmingham where they ripped the 10 Commandments out of the State Courthouse. A hundred years ago that would have caused a riot. Today it occurred with a yawn and a smile.

And that occurred right in the middle of the Bible belt...

[Whisper9999]

You were the one that said you disagreed with my reasons!!!!

I definitely disagree that America is a Christian society or culture in any way shape or form today. Other than "In God We Trust" on our money, there's nothing Christian about us any more.

But you're certainly welcome to disagree with me - I'm used to it. :)

[Shanti]

If you live in a small town in the Bible belt, I stand corrected. But other than that, I just don't see it. Consider Birmingham where the ripped the 10 Commandments out of the State Courthouse. A hundred years ago that would have caused a riot. Today it occurred with a yawn and a smile.

And that occurred right in the middle of the Bible belt...
I live in the bible belt!!!! The belt covers a big region of our country. Many pagans I know and have heard of ask questions like crazy and have few resources to ask. I have MW.

We do not ask our local Christians as they just say we are going to hell.

[Pol]

My observation is that people on this board generally dislike virtually everything about traditional Christianity. Let's face it: "one God, one faith, one Scripture" is not going to be popular with the pagan crowd.

And I also disagree that generaly people are trying to "pick apart the good from the bad". Usually, what I see is that people try to make the following general line of reasoning:

1. Gnostic Christianity existed somewhat simultaneously with traditional Christianity.
2. Gnostic Christianity has a lot of simularities with paganism.
3. Therefore, traditional Christianity is incorrect and should be picked apart.
4. Furthermore, gnostic Christianity is much more correct of the two and should be praised and lauded and quoted.

And I'm not finding fault: if I were in your shoes, I'd do the same thing probably...

Strange, I'ven't seen that at all. In fact, I've seen very little about gnosticism here. Most of it deals with catholicism or modern Christian ideas, and what they're based on, and how they're relevent or not to our lives.

[Whisper9999]

Strange, I'ven't seen that at all. In fact, I've seen very little about gnosticism here. Most of it deals with catholicism or modern Christian ideas, and what they're based on, and how they're relevent or not to our lives.

Well, maybe I'm wrong - I've been wrong before!

[Whisper9999]

I live in the bible belt!!!! The belt covers a big region of our country. Many pagans I know and have heard of ask questions like crazy and have few resources to ask. I have MW.

We do not ask our local Christians as they just say we are going to hell.

That supports my point tho: traditional Christianity is exclusive and for whatever reason that drives the people on this board crazy. So I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying there's a natural tension there and I think it explains why traditional Christianity is generally disliked and attacked on this board.

See you have an interesting reaction to the statment "we are going to hell", a reaction that not all humans of course have. But your reaction is one of the reasons that you are naturally attracted to this board and why traditional Christianity is so repugnant to most here.

Again, I'm not attacking - just stating my opinion...

[Whisper9999]

I live in the bible belt!!!! The belt covers a big region of our country. Many pagans I know and have heard of ask questions like crazy and have few resources to ask. I have MW.

We do not ask our local Christians as they just say we are going to hell.

I can accept your answer. But that's not true for the majority of posters on mw. They do not live in the Bible Belt or some small midwestern town that still happens to have a lot of Christians. So I don't think your point applies to the great majority of posters here...

[Aes Sidhe]

Well, please pick apart my beliefs. I encourage it lol. Especially as my beliefs are the learning of truth and love from asking questions and seeking answeres ;)

[Morr]

um just because theres a lot of people here from the US doesnt mean that Christianity is a big topic here because of that and the effect Christianity has in the US.

im one of the biggest debetars here regarding Christian topics and ummm... I -

~ Born & raised in Israel (though lived 7 years in the states, but in Jersey, not any bible beld area).
~ Am Pagan (duh), but was raised and still live in a dominant Jewish area.

it has nothing to do with location.
Christianity is a hobby for me, I'm studying Church history & planning on getting my Masters & PHD in Christian Theology & History.

So I'm here because I enjoy talking about this stuff, and I'm a Historian at heart, so its hard for me to sit down and let stuff that has been proven otherwise, be tossed around.

[Aes Sidhe]

If you are planning on getting your PHD, first place to start is to realise that nothing can ever be proven right or wrong, just have overwhelming evidence to either support or deny it ;)

But I'm here because I was led here in my search for ways to grow spiritually :)

[Pol]

So, Morr, you think that the effect Christianity has had on America and other countries where Christianity has been featured heavily has nothing to do with people from that area studying it?

[Velvet]

If you are planning on getting your PHD, first place to start is to realise that nothing can ever be proven right or wrong, just have overwhelming evidence to either support or deny it ;)

Lol, actually I am.

[Morr]

So, Morr, you think that the effect Christianity has had on America and other countries where Christianity has been featured heavily has nothing to do with people from that area studying it?


what in gods name does that have to do with anything i said?
i just stated that on the boards not ALL people who discuiss Christianity are from America & its bible belt. Some of us have nothing to do with it during our daily life. Some of us live in an area where Christianity is frowned upon because its associated with the holocuast & inquisition, etc.

thats all.

and i could care less why people study it. Its NOT because of - AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA.
i study it becuase its a subject that intrests me greatly - thats all. And i bet you that its why other professors out here who teach Church History & Religous studies, teach & research this subject because it just intrests them as well.

[Pol]

No one ever said it was about AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA.
Only that many people study it because it is something they have grown up with, and want to know more about the reality and relevence of it.

[Starpixie]

I think its probably because Christianity is the dominant religion in our country so its the one we get the most flack from.

[Keith Dragon]

But we don't want to understand moslems, even though we are fighting them?
I think that will change, but the problem is that I don't think there are many Muslims on this site, and what we most speak of is what we relate to the most, and most of us grew up in a Christian Dominated community.

I did notice, however, in Book stores, at the onset of this conflict, a growing interest in what the religion was. Pre 9/11, not many took an interest in Islam do to not having a direct, and immediate relation with them. Yes we have them here, but the terrorism was mostly overseas.

But in respect to Christianity, many here feel oppressed by them and not the Musliom faith, and they are here to talk about it, to try and understand it.

Dragon

[Ben Trismegistus]

I think it's less about AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA and more about simply WESTERN CIVILIZATION (and yes Morr, I consider you part of Western Civilization). And Christianity has been the dominant religious and cultural 400-pound gorilla in Western Civilization for the last 1500 years. It informs our history and our origins. There is almost nothing in our Civilization that has not been influenced in some important way by Christianity. Therefore, it is natural that Christianity should be a topic that comes up a lot.

Add to that the fact that a large number (perhaps a majority, I don't know) of our posters were raised Christian. Therefore, there's simply a larger knowledge base about Christianity on this forum than there is about any other non-pagan religion. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the first thing about Islam. I doubt I could carry on an intelligent conversation. I wasn't raised Christian, but I've been immersed in Christianity my whole life, and therefore it's a topic I know something about.

Pretty simple answer really. :)

[Ice Rose]

[SIZE=1]Muslim Witches???? That cannot be a possibility. You cannot be a muslim, and a witch. The religons cross each other out. It's like those saying they are "Baptist Wicca" Wiccans believe in the Goddess and the God, and Baptists are branch of christianity, they believe in one God. A muslim believes in one God as well as the other christian based beliefs, they cannot be a witch because it comes from a pagan perspective. If any agree please let me know, and if my informayion is correct please correct me politely.

[Xentor]

Never say never! :D

We've seen lots of awkward combinations already. We've got Christian Wiccans on this board, so why not Muslim Witches? Witchcraft isn't a religion, and Wicca allows for mixing with other religions.

[Whisper9999]

I think its probably because Christianity is the dominant religion in our country so its the one we get the most flack from.

Actually, hedonism, consumerism and narcissism is the new american trinity, although most Americans would never admit it. They would call it by less noxious names as "self-discovery", "just being happy" and "self-actualization".

At work our group has seven individuals including my manager. As it turns out there are two other active Christians besides myself in my group. That has NEVER happened to me. The idea that 3/7 would be committed Christians is stunning!

So, again, imo Christianity is anything but dominant in our country. Yes, it has influence. Yes, it has a powerful history in our country (esp. through the early part of the last century).

But, again, from what I've seen hedonism is king...

[Tullip Troll]

Imo as a traditional theist, I think of course that it was a huge mistake. The 60's saw an unprecedented rise in violent crime, the destruction of the nuclear family and a host of other social ills. But I know that most will disagree with me and that's fine.

But, all I have to say is this: let's see where you guys take our country. In another fifty years, will be really be better off? It'll be interesting to see...

Well if that means women don't have to stay in abusive marriages and people really have the freedom to speak and disagree I think it will eventually take us far. We had lots of problems before...we maybe just don't hide them.

MheraPai

[Tullip Troll]

[SIZE=1]Muslim Witches???? That cannot be a possibility. You cannot be a muslim, and a witch. The religons cross each other out. It's like those saying they are "Baptist Wicca" Wiccans believe in the Goddess and the God, and Baptists are branch of christianity, they believe in one God. A muslim believes in one God as well as the other christian based beliefs, they cannot be a witch because it comes from a pagan perspective. If any agree please let me know, and if my informayion is correct please correct me politely.

Depends on what you think a witch is.

MheraPai

[Tullip Troll]

If you live in a small town in the Bible belt, I stand corrected. But other than that, I just don't see it. Consider Birmingham where they ripped the 10 Commandments out of the State Courthouse. A hundred years ago that would have caused a riot. Today it occurred with a yawn and a smile.

And that occurred right in the middle of the Bible belt...


I am very greatful...not everyone is Christian...there's no rede there...there is no Muslim prayer there...there is no Islamic prayer there....etc etc. I might not have yawned but I would have smiled and clapped.

MheraPai

[Tullip Troll]

Actually, hedonism, consumerism and narcissism is the new american trinity, although most Americans would never admit it. They would call it by less noxious names as "self-discovery", "just being happy" and "self-actualization".

At work our group has seven individuals including my manager. As it turns out there are two other active Christians besides myself in my group. That has NEVER happened to me. The idea that 3/7 would be committed Christians is stunning!

So, again, imo Christianity is anything but dominant in our country. Yes, it has influence. Yes, it has a powerful history in our country (esp. through the early part of the last century).

But, again, from what I've seen hedonism is king...


I just watched a race on TV from California...it had the Lords prayer at the begining and a Christian minister offered a prayerup to God for protection for the racers.

I can turn the TV on any day any time and see an American Christian Broadcast.

I bet if you looked up surveys you would find most of your population to be Christain. Your just lucky to work in a work place where it isnt dominated by Christians.

MheraPai

[Ben Trismegistus]

So, again, imo Christianity is anything but dominant in our country. Yes, it has influence. Yes, it has a powerful history in our country (esp. through the early part of the last century).
You keep harping on this, but the argument simply doesn't hold up. We're not talking about whether Christianity has stayed loyal to its roots. It's obvious that it hasn't. But in a country where nearly 80% of the population identifies as Christian, there's no way to say that Christianity isn't dominant in this country.

[samiaminsane]

Originally posted by Whisper9999:
Actually, hedonism, consumerism and narcissism is the new american trinity, although most Americans would never admit it. They would call it by less noxious names as "self-discovery", "just being happy" and "self-actualization".

Hmmm... and what is so wrong with being happy, with asking questions, with living a pleasurable life?

[Ice Rose]

According to my calculations 52% of Americans are dominated by the act of claiming christianity, whether they truly are or not. The other 48% reside in all the other religons, or simply do not claim one. It only seems that the percemtage would be higher than this because christians dominate the "bible belt"

[Whisper9999]

I just watched a race on TV from California...it had the Lords prayer at the begining and a Christian minister offered a prayer.

I can turn the TV on any day any time and see an American Christian Broadcast.

I bet if you looked up surveys you would find most of your population to be Christain. Your just lucky to work in a work place where it isnt dominated by Christians.

MheraPai

Consider what you just said:

--The only vestige of Christianity in our govt is an occasional prayer from a chaplain? That is so revealing. This is drastically in contrast from the 19th century and prior.
--The only Christianity that you see on television are the very weak and poorly funded christian networks?!?

I really get the impression that a lot of people on this board have had unpleasant conversations with Christians in the past and now have a persecution complex, i.e. the Christians rule the nation and we are breaking free. I hate to tell everyone, but you've all been free since at least the 1960's.

Did you know that all the Ivy League schools were started to train ministers? This is when our country was arguably a Christian Nation. Now these schools are bastions of humanism. Same thing with our media. It is dominated by humanism and consumerism with only a tiny sliver of Christianity occasionally peeking its head out.

Again, if you're in a small town of the bible belt, I agree with you. But, otherwise, it's post-Chrisitian and let's see where this train takes us....

[Whisper9999]

Hmmm... and what is so wrong with being happy, with asking questions, with living a pleasurable life?

Let me ask you: what does being happy have to do with anything when it gets right down to it? Really?

Of course, I believe in being joyful - that's one of the most common commandments in the New Testament. But imo self-fullfillment is an addictive trap and has little to no bearing on the meaning of life.

[Whisper9999]

According to my calculations 52% of Americans are dominated by the act of claiming christianity, whether they truly are or not. The other 48% reside in all the other religons, or simply do not claim one. It only seems that the percemtage would be higher than this because christians dominate the "bible belt"

Calling yourself a Christian mean nothing - at least to me anyway. If it means something to you, that's great, but to me it means almost nothing...

[Tullip Troll]

Let me ask you: what does being happy have to do with anything when it gets right down to it? Really?

Of course, I believe in being joyful - that's one of the most common commandments in the New Testament. But imo self-fullfillment is an addictive trap and has little to no bearing on the meaning of life.

IN my Oppinion

I am the meaning of my life...I find happiness in myself and sharing with others...

Happy is everything...if your not happy life can become unbearable.

MheraPai

What is the meaning of your life

[Whisper9999]

You keep harping on this, but the argument simply doesn't hold up. We're not talking about whether Christianity has stayed loyal to its roots. It's obvious that it hasn't. But in a country where nearly 80% of the population identifies as Christian, there's no way to say that Christianity isn't dominant in this country.

Sorry, but our media, our college educational institutions and our government are all dominated - and I mean DOMINATED - by non-Christians. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but if you read what our country was like in the 18th and 19th centuries, you would see what I am talking about. Back then, judges would cite the Bible. Back then, politicans would also cite the Bible. This very infrequently occurs today.

I "harp" on this because it's simply unimaginable to me that anyone would think we live in a Christian nation. But, hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion...

[Ben Trismegistus]

Sorry, but our media, our college educational institutions and our government are all dominated - and I mean DOMINATED - by non-Christians. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but if you read what our country was like in the 18th and 19th centuries, you would see what I am talking about. Back then, judges would cite the Bible. Back then, politicans would also cite the Bible.

I "harp" on this because it's simply unimaginable to me that anyone would think we live in a Christian nation. But, hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion...
What you're talking about is the secularization of American culture. Just because Americans no longer live their Christianity in every breath doesn't mean that they have ceased to be Christians. I'm a Wiccan, but my religion doesn't inform my every decision and conversation.

It is simply a fallacy to say that college and government are dominated by non-Christians.

[Tullip Troll]

I guess I see all of what you just said as changing for the better.

MheraPai

Life is better now then it was then...especially if you are not white.

[Whisper9999]

IN my Oppinion

I am the meaning of my life...I find happiness in myself and sharing with others...

Happy is everything...if your not happy life can become unbearable.

MheraPai

What is the meaning of your life

I got tired of living for myself a few years ago. Imo it's an addictive, dead end street. This is exactly the lifestyle that I want to break out of and feel God is helping me with.

I think the meaning of life is living for others and God.

Again, my two cents...

[equinox2]

As many others have said, there appears to be three main reasons:

1. We are immersed in Christian culture, and regularly discuss Christianity with Christians (relatives, coworkers, neighbors, door-to-door evangelists, etc.), often unwillingly.

Whisper9999 has disagreed with this reason, but I agree with Ben’s response to Whisper9999s objection – it is still quite true that we live in a Christian culture with a whopping majority of Christians (or at least people who claim to be Christian, even if one might not consider them “TrueChristiansTM”. The posting of the 10 commandments and such is hotly debated – but posting the Hindu commandments isn’t. That is one clue.
Congress starts with a Christian prayer every session, the one time a hindu was invited to give it there was an uproar, and no non-Christian has been invited since. Most of all, the statistics are clear – Ben’s 80% is about right. I live in a small town (in MI) where only Christianity is acceptable, but those 80% statistics cover all of the USA.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

I could go on and on about how Christianity is given a favored status as opposed to, say, Wicca – but I don’t think I need to. Whisper9999 is right that materialism is harmful and prevalent, but that only means that there are a lot of “Christian materialists” out there.

2. Christianity’s exclusivistic nature grates many of us (including me). Islam isn’t discussed much due to #1 & #3.

Whisper9999 has also trumpeted this one and I completely agree. It is a significant point of disagreement and difference, and as such I think it contributes to the desire to examine Christianity. No one else mentioned this so I’ll chime in with my support.

3. Most of us grew up Christian, and as such know about Christianity (or at least the Christianity that we were raised with, which can differ a lot). We also share common experiences in leaving Christianity that influence who we are – and are thus a topic of discussion.

‘Nuff said.

There could be other reasons, but I think those account for a lot of it. I don’t think it is important which of those three is the “biggest”.

I also want to echo what others have said – everyone, please feel free to “pick apart” (examine) other religions, including mine, which has links in my sig below.

Also:
Whisper9999 wrote:

I got tired of living for myself a few years ago. Imo it's an addictive, dead end street. This is exactly the lifestyle that I want to break out of and feel God is helping me with.

I think the meaning of life is living for others and God.

Good point! I agree that there is great harm in going to the extreme of living only for oneself, and I agree that our society as a whole is too far that way.

For me, I think it is a balance - on one hand, we must not live only for ourselves, but must care for others. On the other hand, grovelling subservience to anyone - god or human - is a terrible, degraded way to live. I see either extreme as harmful, with a healthy balance possible.

Have a fun day!

[Tullip Troll]

WHy does God need you to live for him ?(not an attack but just a why)

In living for myself and ensuring that I am happy I am more able to be there for others to help and aid in their happiness as they do for me.

MheraPai

[Whisper9999]

What you're talking about is the secularization of American culture. Just because Americans no longer live their Christianity in every breath doesn't mean that they have ceased to be Christians. I'm a Wiccan, but my religion doesn't inform my every decision and conversation.

It is simply a fallacy to say that college and government are dominated by non-Christians.

How 'bout this then? Name on recent significant media, government or higher educational decision or policy that was influenced in the slightests way by Christian thought.

Good luck cuzz the examples are few and far between.

That's the definition of secular: without religion. That's what our country is all about right now.

[Ben Trismegistus]

How 'bout this then? Name on recent significant media, government or higher educational decision or policy that was influenced in the slightests way by Christian thought.
Um... ok let's see.

Faith-based initiatives
Partial-birth abortion ban
Rescinding government aid to countries who teach birth control methods other than abstinence
"Jesus Day" in Texas
"The Passion of the Christ" (media)
Anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment referendums pending in 13 states

Shall I go on?

[Whisper9999]

WHy does God need you to live for him ?(not an attack but just a why)

He doesn't "need" me. That's not the issue in my mind. The question is this, "Why would I ignore the guidance and character of God infused within me? Why would I live w/o the One who made the Universe at the dawn of time?"

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as youself.

What else is there time for?

[Shanti]

Do we or do we not swear on the bible before taking the stand in our courts? I believe the court system is our countries government and they use the bible in the courts. God is on all our money. God was added to the pledge.
And during christmas time, Jesus is everywhere but I dont see that behavior in the general populus concerning Beltain (SP).
Why are many our NATIONAL holidays christian if this country isnt christian dominate? My SO gets off of work for Christmas but not for the equanox.

[equinox2]

Name on recent significant media, government or higher educational decision or policy that was influenced in the slightests way by Christian thought.

Good luck cuzz the examples are few and far between.

You’ve got to be kidding!

Both the liberals and the conservatives regularly use Christian thought to justify their policies, to the point of quoting scripture on issues of welfare, budget, social issues, you name it! That's not even counting obvious things like the "defense of marriage" act written against gay marriage and signed by president Clinton.

President Bush explicitly says that he thinks he is doing God’s will by fighting the war in Iraq. I could go on and on – it might even be hard for me to come up with a government decision that isn’t explicitly influenced by Christian thought.

[Whisper9999]

Um... ok let's see.

Faith-based initiatives
Partial-birth abortion ban
Rescinding government aid to countries who teach birth control methods other than abstinence
"Jesus Day" in Texas
"The Passion of the Christ" (media)
Anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment referendums pending in 13 states

Shall I go on?

I've got to go to work, so I only have time for one of these. Let's start with abortion. The majority of Christians have long seen abortion, esp. late term partial birth abortions, as nothing short of infanticide. Now, it's been 30+ years since Roe vs. Wade. I ask you this: has one thing changed since then? No!

If Christians were dominant, there would be no abortion. I do not know one evangelical Christian who is pro-choice. I am sure there are some out there, but I don't know any.

So if we're so scary and dominant, why is it that we can't even pass partial birth abortion bans?!?

Your arguments are actually arguing for the opposite of what you are stating.

[Shanti]

Why do we swear on the bible in court and we have 'National' christian holidays if we are not a christian dominate society?

[Whisper9999]

Do we or do we not swear on the bible before taking the stand in our courts? I believe the court system is our countries government and they use the bible in the courts. God is on all our money. God was added to the pledge.
And during christmas time, Jesus is everywhere but I dont see that behavior in the general populus concerning Beltain (SP).
Why are many our NATIONAL holidays christian if this country isnt christian dominate? My SO gets off of work for Christmas but not for the equanox.

Again, everything you have cited are vestiges of a Christian past when Christianity was truly dominant.

And "Christmas"? Christmas for the great majority of people is about consumerism. Most Christians I know struggle to keep the "Christ" in Christmas. Again, this is another example of post-Christian culture...

And, btw, most corporations that I have worked for recently, as is the case with schools that I know of, have "Winter Holidays" not Christmas. Even this tiny vestige of Christianity, the names of our holidays, is slowly disappearing...

[Ben Trismegistus]

I've got to go to work, so I only have time for one of these. Let's start with abortion. The majority of Christians have long seen abortion, esp. late term partial birth abortions, as nothing short of infanticide. Now, it's been 30+ years since Roe vs. Wade. I ask you this: has one thing changed since then? No!
Uh, yes. They just passed the partial-birth abortion ban. That's why I mentioned it.


If Christians were dominant, there would be no abortion. I do not know one evangelical Christian who is pro-choice. I am sure there are some out there, but I don't know any.
That's assuming that every Christian is pro-life. They're not. If you're saying that only Evangelical Christians are real Christians, then I'll roll my eyes and leave the conversation for good.


So if we're so scary and dominant, why is it that we can't even pass partial birth abortion bans?!?
You did. Don't you read the news?


Your arguments are actually arguing for the opposite of what you are stating.
What?

[Whisper9999]

Why do we swear on the bible in court and we have 'National' christian holidays if we are not a christian dominate society?

Again, a small reminder of our Christian past.

[Tullip Troll]

I would agree that Christians are losing their Hold...They may not be as strong as they once were but they still need to let ago a bit more.

I am thankful of the changes made everyday and I wish it woud go faster.

MheraPai

[Shanti]

Again, a small reminder of our Christian past. These are things going on in the presant. Look at Christmas....people are celabrating everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[equinox2]

Now, it's been 30+ years since Roe vs. Wade. I ask you this: has one thing changed since then? No!

A lot has changed. Abortion provider numbers have decreased significantly, and abortions (in any term) can no longer be obtained in a majority of counties nationwide - restrictions (such as parental notification, waiting periods, etc) have mutiplied a lot too. All that despite the constant pressure from powerful groups like NOW, etc. I think abortion is a testament to strength of the Christian right.

We should slow down a bit - Whisper9999 needs to go to work, and besides, if we keep it up we're going to blow out a keyboard or two! :ringaroun

More importantly, I think that some of us aren't having time to read all the posts.

[Whisper9999]

Uh, yes. They just passed the partial-birth abortion ban. That's why I mentioned it.


That's assuming that every Christian is pro-life. They're not. If you're saying that only Evangelical Christians are real Christians, then I'll roll my eyes and leave the conversation for good.


You did. Don't you read the news?


What?

So in 30 years we made a small change in the abortion laws on fully formed babies in a mother's womb? This is your example of a Christian-dominated nation?!? Again, if it was a Christian Nation, there would NO abortion.

I have a friend who peacefully protested again abortion in SoCal. Some of the men came away with broken fingers and some of the women with full body cavity searches. They gave up all such protests.

I have other friends who have been incarcerated for it and have heard of others given huge fines for PEACEFUL protests.

This is not a Christian Nation. This would have been unimaginable in 19th and 18th century America...

It's time for the non-Christians to take responsibility. They're in charge and need to at least recognize it...

[DragonsChest]

I had to go back and read the opening post again, to remind myself what this thread is all about. I think it's been sidetracked just a tad.

I am mostly Christian, and I've not really felt that Christianity is being picked apart. Discussed hotly, disagreed with, yes, but not attacked. Not usually, not any more than other paths I've read about. I've found the pagans and followers of other creeds here to be as polite to me and my beliefs as I am willing to be to theirs. Play nicely, children.

As to why there may not be any muslim witches, rightly or wrongly, I'm wondering if there is not the proliferation of computer access there that we have in the rest of the world. Maybe they just can't get to a computer with internet access? Maybe their access to sites such as MW would be prevented? I don't pretend to know why.

Shanti, you bring up an interesting question. (I use the word "you" in the following to indicate the generic "you", not anyone in particular) Before testifying in court, you place your hand on a Bible. Question: by "swearing" on a book you don't hold to be true or have power in your life, would you feel no guilt at perhaps lying on the stand? I mean, you are not breaking any oaths when you don't feel beholdn to the text, do you? I don't know that swearing to tell the truth on a Koran would be very effective for me, as I don't follow that faith. Just an interesting sidebar.....

Back to your regularly scheduled program.....

[Whisper9999]

I would agree that Christians are losing their Hold...They may not be as strong as they once were but they still need to let ago a bit more.

I am thankful of the changes made everyday and I wish it woud go faster.

MheraPai

Thanks for the best wishes...

[Ben Trismegistus]

So in 30 years we made a small change in the abortion laws on fully formed babies in a mother's womb? This is your example of a Christian-dominated nation?!? Again, if it was a Christian Nation, there would NO abortion.
Again, you're assuming that all Christians are pro-life. They're not. And for the record, partial-birth abortion has nothing to do with whether a baby is fully-formed or not. It refers to the procedure itself.


It's time for the non-Christians to take responsibility. They're in charge and need to at least recognize it...
I can't argue with you if you're not going to see reason. Do you think that only evangelical fundamentalists count as Christians?

[Ice Rose]

Calling yourself a Christian mean nothing - at least to me anyway. If it means something to you, that's great, but to me it means almost nothing...
Wait what??? I was simply stating the percentages by the statistics I was going by, personally I don't care if a christian is really one or not. I just wanted to speak my research. I'm happily Wiccan.

[equinox2]

Ben T wrote:


Do you think that only evangelical fundamentalists count as Christians?

Whisper9999 wrote:


Calling yourself a Christian mean nothing - at least to me anyway. If it means something to you, that's great, but to me it means almost nothing...

Uh oh, back to the question of “what is a ‘Christian’”…. Here is the definition I posted previously:

http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=65378&page=2 post #15

Whisper9999 wrote:

I really get the impression that a lot of people on this board have had unpleasant conversations with Christians in the past and now have a persecution complex…

Well, right now there is significant influence in the USA from both the fundamentalist Christians and the non-Christians in this nation. I think no one can claim systematic persecution in America, especially not compared to real persecutions (torture, killings, etc.) like the treatment of Christians by the non-Christians in 250 CE, or the treatment of non-Christians by Christians in the 6th century.

With fundamentalist Christians at around 45%, and Atheist/agnostics at around 8% and Pagans at less than 1 %, it would seem that if anyone can try claim a persecution, it shouldn’t be the Christians – yet both sides claim persecution. Here is an example of what I would call a “persecution complex” from the Christian side.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=156064 (Christians will soon be rounded up and beheded) or http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=163476 (Beware the “Secular Jihad” against Christians - even though the post contains half-truths and exaggerations)

The “oh no we’re being horribly persecuted” view sometimes has some merit, and often has a grain of truth, but should always be balanced with comparisons to the truth and the treatment of other groups.

Take care-

[Tullip Troll]

Thanks for the best wishes...

You do have my Best wishes...


MheraPai

[Whisper9999]

You do have my Best wishes...
MheraPai

Thx. You too.

[Whisper9999]

Ben T wrote:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=156064 (Christians will soon be rounded up and beheded) or http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=163476 (Beware the “Secular Jihad” against Christians - even though the post contains half-truths and exaggerations)


This is very rare. I don't know any Christian who feels this way although obviously there's some out there. Christians now feel more censored than anything else. We feel that we're "along for the ride" waiting to see where the humanists and hedonists take us. It's a pretty scary ride.

Imagine if you're a Christian, for example, and you see the secular population so willing to kill late term babies. You can't help what society would do under the right circumstances.

But I don't know anyone who has the kind of Mosquito Coast paranoia you're talking about here...

[Whisper9999]

Ben T wrote:
With fundamentalist Christians at around 45%

You have got to be kidding! Show me a county outside of the Bible belt that has one in two fundamental Christians and I'll move there tomorrow...

[Whisper9999]

Ben T wrote:
Uh oh, back to the question of “what is a ‘Christian’”…. Here is the definition I posted previously:

http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=65378&page=2 post #15


Actually, you'll find that 95% of world Christians that accept the Bible as inerrant have the same core doctrines. It's actually quite remarkable. I feel comfortable around Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Greek Orthodox members, charistmatics (woo hoo!), non-denominational evangelicals, etc., etc. Yes, we disagree on minor points but not on core doctrine, i.e. how to get to heaven.

In spite of what most people think on this board, Christians today feel a remarkable sense of ecumenicism. However, the dividing line is clearly drawn at how one treats the Bible.

I don't feel comfortable theologically around the typical theologically liberal Christian and neither do most of my poors. But liberal Christianity is a slowly dying creature and a relatively small portion of global Christianity. Same with the cults. No I don't feel comfortable around Mormons, but they are a small % of the world Christian pie.

[Whisper9999]

Wait what??? I was simply stating the percentages by the statistics I was going by, personally I don't care if a christian is really one or not. I just wanted to speak my research. I'm happily Wiccan.

Well, that's my point then: neither of us thinks that what one says has any bearing on real faith and practice. In other words, there's a lot of people who say they're Christian, but you would NEVER guess it from their external actions. The Bible makes little to no difference in anything they do; they rarely go to church; they rarely pray, etc. etc.

It's not the talk; it's the walk...

And people like this make up a huge chunk of our population and I'm with you: they should not be counted in the stats of Christianity.

[Whisper9999]

Again, you're assuming that all Christians are pro-life.
So then are you arguing that Christians are just like non-Christians? No, I think you are arguing that you live in a Christian Nation where this supposed Christian majority is forcing drastically different public policies on you such as pro-life abortion laws. And I'm saying this: it ain't happenin'.

Look - I wish it were happening. If I could do anything to get rid of abortion, for example, I would do it. But I, like most Christians, have given up. I only pray for it now.

Why? Because the secular leadership of our country has so severely beaten back any opposition. This is the reality of the situation.

Look, you won - at least for now. So "enjoy" it. You're the driver and I'm in your bus. Instead of telling me you're not driving, tell me where we're going...

[Whisper9999]

Do you think that only evangelical fundamentalists count as Christians?
Of course not. But, again, secular society has no debate with liberal Christians: they're all one big happy family. They're universalists; they're morally liberal and relativistic; they doubt God and the Bible. Where is the "Christian Nation" in all of that? It's just humanism with a robe and a collar.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Of course not. But, again, secular society has no debate with liberal Christians: they're all one big happy family. They're universalists; they're morally liberal and relativistic; they doubt God and the Bible. Where is the "Christian Nation" in all of that? It's just humanism with a robe and a collar.
You have a startlingly narrow definition of what counts as Christianity in your view, and an obvious disdain for liberal Christianity. So go on and boo-hoo about how Christians are being persecuted in this country - I can't argue with you because we're not even starting from the same reality.

[DragonsChest]

Not all Christians feel we are being persecuted. And Christianity can be as narrow or embracing as you want to make it. It depends on the person and their view. IMO



(edited for spelling)

[equinox2]

Whipser9999 wrote:

This is very rare. I don't know any Christian who feels this way although obviously there's some out there. Christians now feel more censored than anything else.

Well, yes, Christians who expect the Christians in the US to be rounded up and beheaded soon are rare. However, those who feel persecuted aren’t rare – many of them state that that main type of persecution is censorship, which you yourself have bemoaned. I haven’t read the Mosquito coast, so I’ll assume you mean extreme paranoia – I agree that few on either side have that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by equinox2Ben T wrote:
With fundamentalist Christians at around 45%


You have got to be kidding! Show me a county outside of the Bible belt that has one in two fundamental Christians and I'll move there tomorrow...

Of course I don’t have access to county by county data (If you do, could you please send me a link?). However, I think there are plenty, even including my county of Midland MI, based on repeated data that shows around 45% nationally (referenced my sources for that in my other post - check them if you like).

Since about 80% of the US are Christians, that means that a majority (45/80) of Christians are fundamentalist. They can’t all be in the Bible belt. Statistics also repeatedly show that fundamentalists are less common in big cities, so I’d propose you move to nearly any rural county and you’ll probably have a good chance. Just think about the fact that about 50% of Americans believe in young earth, biblical creationism - that shows that there are a lot of fundamentalists.

Whisper9999 wrote:

Actually, you'll find that 95% of world Christians that accept the Bible as inerrant have the same core doctrines. … Yes, we disagree on minor points but not on core doctrine, i.e. how to get to heaven.

It depends on what you mean by “core”. I have looked, that that isn’t what I’ve found.

“how to get to heaven” is a major point of disagreement between protestants (Faith alone, Alone, ALONE!) and Catholics (Faith, but works and sacraments are important too). Many Catholics accept the Bible as inerrant - are you saying Catholics aren't Christian?

Plus many fundamentalists are blatantly Pelagian heretics – thinking that it is man’s decision & initial effort to be saved or not, while many disagree vehemently. Is the meaning of Baptism core? Some say the procedure of baptism removes original sin, others find that too “magical”, and disagree (not to mention the ongoing disagreement about HOW to baptize). Beliefs differ among fundamentalists about the lord’s supper, the return of Christ, the end of the world, the afterlife, the holy spirit, and more. What about the trinity? Many Pentecostal fundamentalists see the trinity as unscriptural and made up by the Catholic church. But yes, you can find some things they pretty much all agree on if you whittle things down far enough and just ignore disagreements. So there could be a small core, like there being a God, that Hell exists for all non-Christians or that Jesus existed and was divine.

Whisper9999 wrote

But liberal Christianity is a slowly dying creature and a relatively small portion of global Christianity. Same with the cults.

Statistics have shown that you are right about liberal Christianity on both counts. Regardless of what we want or don’t want to be true – that’s what the data says.

The data disagrees with you on the “cults” as you put it. If you mean Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, they aren’t declining and are actually doing quite well. If current trends continue, then liberal Christianity will die, and Christianity will be made up of various different Fundamentalist type groups with both Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses being significant chunks of Christianity.

The attached graph shows the data on the Mormons – they have been growing exponentially since their inception in the 1800s. A linear extrapolation of the fitted line suggests that they will soon outnumber Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc (though outnumbering Catholics will take longer). Of course, trends like that may not continue, but for now the newer Christianities are doing anything but dying. NOTE- the Y axis is Logarithmic, showing exponential growth as a straight line.


On all of these questions, going by the data and hypothetically switching names around (like the Hindu 10 commandments discussion) can help clarify what is real and what is group propaganda. There is group propaganda from both sides.

(edited - I'm not seeing the graph even though the post page says it is attached. Please let me know if the graph isn't showing up for you).

[samiaminsane]

Originally posted by Whisper9999:
Let me ask you: what does being happy have to do with anything when it gets right down to it? Really?

Of course, I believe in being joyful - that's one of the most common commandments in the New Testament. But imo self-fullfillment is an addictive trap and has little to no bearing on the meaning of life.

Sigh, as always, I must disagree with you. Happiness is the most important thing. Not money, not God, just happiness. Of course, everyone achieves happiness in different ways. You have the religion that you chose because it fulfills you and completes you, correct?

[Keith Dragon]

Originally posted by Whisper9999:
Let me ask you: what does being happy have to do with anything when it gets right down to it? Really?

If happiness has nothing to do with anything, then this is all a big waste of time.



But imo self-fullfillment is an addictive trap and has little to no bearing on the meaning of life.

If I read you correctly, I assume you are refering to a materialistic fulfilment and not a spiritual one. For if you are speaking of spiritual self-fulfilment as an addictive trap, that you are wrong, in anyones opinion.

As far as happiness, that is not the same as self-fulfilment. Self fulfilment is driven by a me, me, me attitude, and not because someone desires to be happy, though it may give them the illusion that this is the case.

The is nothing wrong with wanting a material possession as well. As long as it does not become your meaning to life.

I believe what you are referring to is the conflict of the Ego, and the illusions it creates before our eyes to gain control over us.

But this is not a bad thing, because it is what drives us to become a better person, to rise above the Ego, and control it and not vice verse.

Dragon

[AterCorax]

It's time for the non-Christians to take responsibility. They're in charge and need to at least recognize it...

Excuse me? You have no right to speak (or write) these words until I see a non-Christian president running the United States for a considerable amount of time (enough time to cause all these "horrible" and "un"-Christian changes like women's rights, etc.).

-Ater

[misschief]

Excuse me? You have no right to speak (or write) these words until I see a non-Christian president running the United States for a considerable amount of time (enough time to cause all these "horrible" and "un"-Christian changes like women's rights, etc.).

-Aterlmao.. exactly what i was thinking..

and, there are so many problems with the 'facts' whisper has stated... i wouldn't even know where to begin... "MORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"......... lol.


one thing that does stick out in my mind tho whisper is, i think i saw a post from you somewhere in this mess about christians would never be pro-choice?? well.. my mother is a baptist minister.. southern baptist even... and she's prochoice. christianity may not be visible in life everyday.. but it IS the theme of the US... whether it's liberal, fundie, or just people using the word, it's dominant. if you can't see that you obviously haven't seen the news, newspapers, or even been out of your house for several years. and as for these 'christian' holidays you referred to, do you even know where christmas came from??? (yes i know, so sick of hearing that from pagans... well hear it some more.) do you even know when jesus was REALLY born? if you do, please, tell us. ugh.. i can't even go on with this.

[DragonsChest]

Well, that's my point then: neither of us thinks that what one says has any bearing on real faith and practice. In other words, there's a lot of people who say they're Christian, but you would NEVER guess it from their external actions. The Bible makes little to no difference in anything they do; they rarely go to church; they rarely pray, etc. etc.

It's not the talk; it's the walk...

And people like this make up a huge chunk of our population and I'm with you: they should not be counted in the stats of Christianity.


I take exception to this. I am a Christian. I do not go to church. Does that me less Christian or should I not be allowed to call myself this? According to you, it does. My relationship with God and Jesus and Goddess is absolutely none of your business, nor is how I choose to show this outwardly. I do not stand on a street corner and harangue passersby. My chosen path is the Golden Rule: I do unto others as I want them to do unto me. When I stand before the Divine at the end of my life, I will hold my head high, because I have tried my very hardest to be the best person and do the best with the life I was given, this time around.

I choose to show my faith by being a kind, considerate person, one who keeps her word to others, and is honest and true. I raise my children to be good citizens, and production ones, people I would want others to associate with. I pray, and whether or not you can hear it or I choose to do so in the presence of others --- gives noone else the right to question the depth and conviction of my beliefs.

How dare anyone question my right to call myself a Christian!

[Whisper9999]

Of course I don’t have access to county by county data (If you do, could you please send me a link?). However, I think there are plenty, even including my county of Midland MI, based on repeated data that shows around 45% nationally (referenced my sources for that in my other post - check them if you like).

Since about 80% of the US are Christians, that means that a majority (45/80) of Christians are fundamentalist. They can’t all be in the Bible belt. Statistics also repeatedly show that fundamentalists are less common in big cities, so I’d propose you move to nearly any rural county and you’ll probably have a good chance. Just think about the fact that about 50% of Americans believe in young earth, biblical creationism - that shows that there are a lot of fundamentalists.
First of all, you write very solid, well thought out posts and I'm appreciative of that. But I still feel that everyone, for what it's wortth, is missing my point here. This is all I'm saying: evangelical and charismatic Christians are by and large the only Christians that could possibly be responsible for the kind of religious social pressure that you feel is occurring in your lives somehow. And by anyone's studies, evangelical Christians are not that large a segment of the population.

We're all agreeing, even Ben and I, except for the fact that I'm saying evangelical Christianity has long ago lost its leadership in this country.

It depends on what you mean by “core”. I have looked, that that isn’t what I’ve found.

“how to get to heaven” is a major point of disagreement between protestants (Faith alone, Alone, ALONE!) and Catholics (Faith, but works and sacraments are important too). Many Catholics accept the Bible as inerrant - are you saying Catholics aren't Christian?

Plus many fundamentalists are blatantly Pelagian heretics – thinking that it is man’s decision & initial effort to be saved or not, while many disagree vehemently. Is the meaning of Baptism core? Some say the procedure of baptism removes original sin, others find that too “magical”, and disagree (not to mention the ongoing disagreement about HOW to baptize). Beliefs differ among fundamentalists about the lord’s supper, the return of Christ, the end of the world, the afterlife, the holy spirit, and more. What about the trinity? Many Pentecostal fundamentalists see the trinity as unscriptural and made up by the Catholic church. But yes, you can find some things they pretty much all agree on if you whittle things down far enough and just ignore disagreements. So there could be a small core, like there being a God, that Hell exists for all non-Christians or that Jesus existed and was divine.

I can only tell you this much: I hang around charismatic and evangelical Christian all the time and they all feel that ALL - and I emphasize ALL - of their evangelical friends regardless of denomination are going to heaven. Furthermore, the great majority of them feel comfortable around Catholic Christians as well. This is 95% of the evangelical community. Yes, UPC's make us squirm and the cults we almost universally exclude, but again that's a relatively small % of the pie.

And that's my point: the days of division and back biting among Christians is over with - at least in America. I've attended many missions conferences, for example. And they're attended by a WIDE variety of denominations and non-denominational churches.
Trust me - NONE of these churches would attend a conference with Mormons. How do I know that? Because I used to live in a town that was at least one third Mormon. And it was an issue. The Mormons invited themselves to a conference and it created an uproar. But, again, every evangelical church would attend with every other evangelical (or mainstream for that matter) church.

This is all a non-issue now - that's all I can tell you.

Mormons, they aren’t declining and are actually doing quite well. If current trends continue, then liberal Christianity will die, and Christianity will be made up of various different Fundamentalist type groups with both Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses being significant chunks of Christianity.
True. But they are still a relatively small portion of the pie. And, for general interest, a very large % of Mormon growth comes from internal growth, i.e. big families.

To summarize: charismatic and evangelical populations, which are by and large the only groups that would supposedly enforce a "Christian Nation" on anyone, are a relatively small portion of the population. Maybe 10-25% of the population and certainly not enough to move political mountains.

[Whisper9999]

You have a startlingly narrow definition of what counts as Christianity in your view, and an obvious disdain for liberal Christianity. So go on and boo-hoo about how Christians are being persecuted in this country - I can't argue with you because we're not even starting from the same reality.

Actually, I'm not "boo-hooing" nor do I feel that persecuted at this time. If you read my posts, I only stated that humanists and hedonists were in the driver seat and had taken the reigns of power over in this country in the 60's. I'm not saying that Christians are getting severe persecution.

Yes, we get some. As this thread points out, it's fashionable nowadays to pick and bite at Christianity. But nothing major of course...

[Whisper9999]

Whipser9999 wrote:
I haven’t read the Mosquito coast, so I’ll assume you mean extreme paranoia – I agree that few on either side have that.

Mosquito Coast is an old (and pretty lousy) Harrison Ford movie. To protect his family, he takes them into a very remote area and let's just say it's not pretty...

[Whisper9999]

Sigh, as always, I must disagree with you. Happiness is the most important thing. Not money, not God, just happiness. Of course, everyone achieves happiness in different ways. You have the religion that you chose because it fulfills you and completes you, correct?

Well, first of all, I want you to know that I'm not trying to say I'm perfect or anything. I fail all the time and I recognize how much I need God's help. But I'm really being honest when I say that choosing a religion that "fulfills and completes me" is secondary. That's simply a side benefit.

And, by the way, the well-known Christian mystic Madame Guyon emphasizes this fact. Imo true love has nothing to do directly with being fulfilled. In fact, that is imo VERY dangerous territory to walk upon...

And by the way, if this exasperates you - then just agree to disagree with me. I really don't want to frustrate you on this. There's no point in arguing about true love after all. :)

[tygherrayn]

I can accept your answer. But that's not true for the majority of posters on mw. They do not live in the Bible Belt or some small midwestern town that still happens to have a lot of Christians. So I don't think your point applies to the great majority of posters here...


I'd love to know how you came to this conclusion? Did you ask every one of the posters on the board? Did you create a survey to determine the thoughts and beliefs of ever one of our nearing 12,000 members?

Frankly, I'd like to ask you not to speak for me, as you just did. Obviously you live in a non-Christian dominated area .. but that doesn't make you right.

[tygherrayn]

Muslim Witches???? That cannot be a possibility. You cannot be a muslim, and a witch. The religons cross each other out. It's like those saying they are "Baptist Wicca" Wiccans believe in the Goddess and the God, and Baptists are branch of christianity, they believe in one God. A muslim believes in one God as well as the other christian based beliefs, they cannot be a witch because it comes from a pagan perspective. If any agree please let me know, and if my informayion is correct please correct me politely.


Actually, it's not the same thing. You can just as easily be a Muslim Witch as you can be a Baptist Witch, or Buddhist Witch. As I think Morr said, Witchcraft isn't about a religious belief, it's about a way of life. Just because they believe in Allah does not mean they could not also be a witch ... a word which was taken to mean 'wise woman' at one time. Witch and Wiccan are not synonyms.

[Whisper9999]

If happiness has nothing to do with anything, then this is all a big waste of time.
Why? Here's your philosphical equation:

happiness/self-fullfillment = meaning

There's some big jumps of logic there that you have not supported.

Maybe it's semantics and we're actually agreeing - that's what I'm hoping.

Maybe if I give an example you'll see where I'm coming from: I have a five year old that I love endlessly. I don't have any desire to get any "self-fulfillment" out of my relationship to him. I have a great time with him and enjoy being with him, but I can honestly say that I just want what's best for him.

But here the point: I don't care whether I'm happy. I care about him. Of course, a lot of happiness occurs just from being around him naturally because, I believe, that's how God designed the universe.

But I would NEVER think of putting my happiness first as prima facie. I'm just being honest here: I find that actually distasteful. To me it is the antithesis of true love.

Anyway, I'm hoping we're just cutting a diamond from different angles...

If I read you correctly, I assume you are refering to a materialistic fulfilment and not a spiritual one. For if you are speaking of spiritual self-fulfilment as an addictive trap, that you are wrong, in anyones opinion.
This is very interesting to me. The more I think about your posts, the more I realize there may be a very fundamental difference between the typical Christian and the typical pagan. You wrote "in anyone's opinion" because I can tell you genuinely can't imagine anyone would write otherwise. But I can't tell you the number of messages and conversations and books that I have read that emphasize that you do not love someone, or Someone for that matter, to get something from them.

And as I was writing that, I think the difference hit me finally: most of you guys see the universe as pantheistic, i.e. you see the universe as largely impersonal. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but let me go on.

Now in my case I see it as personal. I see a loving God that personally cares about me. Am I going to love Him just because he can fulfill me? Am I going to love Him just because He gives wonderful gifts?

This kind of thinking would be anathema to virtually all of my Christian friends. I hope I'm making sense...

[Whisper9999]

I'd love to know how you came to this conclusion? Did you ask every one of the posters on the board? Did you create a survey to determine the thoughts and beliefs of ever one of our nearing 12,000 members?

Frankly, I'd like to ask you not to speak for me, as you just did. Obviously you live in a non-Christian dominated area .. but that doesn't make you right.
Are you seriously arguing that most mw posters live in the Bible belt or small midwestern towns. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but why argue this point?

[tygherrayn]

No, I'm not. But I am arguing that you cannot possibly know the thoughts and beliefs of every poster, and thus you are frankly just speaking out of your apparently ignorant arse.

But that's just my opinion. Go ahead and tell me my opinion isn't valid. Not that I'll see it.

[Whisper9999]

No, I'm not. But I am arguing that you cannot possibly know the thoughts and beliefs of every poster, and thus you are frankly just speaking out of your apparently ignorant arse.

But that's just my opinion. Go ahead and tell me my opinion isn't valid. Not that I'll see it.
Trash talking, eh? Now that's unusual on mw.

Maybe you can accept this thesis:

"I, Whisper9999, can state with 99.999% certainty that not every poster on mw is from a small midwestern town or the Bible belt. But I cannot prove it with 100% mathematical certainty."

Now can you accept this? If so, please realize that this is too much for me to write with every post that I am 99% certain about. In theological discussions, it is rare to have an argument you can mathematically prove, so why demand that all debaters state that ad nauseum throughout their posts?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Actually, I'm not "boo-hooing" nor do I feel that persecuted at this time. If you read my posts, I only stated that humanists and hedonists were in the driver seat and had taken the reigns of power over in this country in the 60's. I'm not saying that Christians are getting severe persecution.

Yes, we get some. As this thread points out, it's fashionable nowadays to pick and bite at Christianity. But nothing major of course...
OK, I see the crux (pun intended) of our argument here. You and I are basically in agreement, but here is the problem.

According to your use of the term "Christian" (as in "Christian nation", etc.), the only Christians you consider are evangelical and charismatic Christians. You equate liberal and mainstream Christians with "humanists and hedonists". The rest of us don't see it that way. There are many levels of Christianity, and if you take into account all American Christians, you can only come to the conclusion that the Christians remain in power in the US. The vast majority of elected officials are Christians. The vast majority of the populace are Christians. Christianity is the dominant meme of religious discourse in this country.

The fact that Christianity doesn't invade every aspect of public and governmental life shows a respect towards non-Christians, rather than a takeover of non-Christians. And the fact that evangelical Christian viewpoints (such as the illegality of abortion and gay marriage) have not found a foothold in federal politics shows merely that a majority of legislators recognize the Jeffersonian separation of church and state, not a descent into hedonism and humanism.

[Whisper9999]

OK, I see the crux (pun intended) of our argument here. You and I are basically in agreement, but here is the problem.

According to your use of the term "Christian" (as in "Christian nation", etc.), the only Christians you consider are evangelical and charismatic Christians. You equate liberal and mainstream Christians with "humanists and hedonists".

We're getting closer, but I DO believe that liberal Christians can go to heaven - imo it depends on their relationship with God just like everyone else.

What I am saying is that liberal Christians are generally NOT going to be fighting against you in public policy. In fact, quite the oppostite. They will be fighting with you against all the "Christian Nation fundamentalists" that you seem to think are in power.

That was my primary point.

Also: mainstream Christianity is not something I wished to lump in with liberal Christianity. If I said that, I shouldn't have. I believe that several times in my posts I said that I consider that I feel very comfortable at a missions conference with Baptists, Methodists, etc. The bottom line: mainstream chuches have evangelicals in them. But, in general, you don't find many of the mainstream churches active in socially and morally conservative kinds of politics unless they have a lot of evangelicals in them (such as the Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, etc.).

Again, evangelical believers are a relatively small percentage of the population regardless of whether they are in denominational or non-denominational churches and they are generally the only ones you will be fighting with.

[Ice Rose]

Actually, it's not the same thing. You can just as easily be a Muslim Witch as you can be a Baptist Witch, or Buddhist Witch. As I think Morr said, Witchcraft isn't about a religious belief, it's about a way of life. Just because they believe in Allah does not mean they could not also be a witch ... a word which was taken to mean 'wise woman' at one time. Witch and Wiccan are not synonyms.
I was just stating the way I saw it. Sorry if I was wrong.

[Ben Trismegistus]

We're getting closer, but I DO believe that liberal Christians can go to heaven - imo it depends on their relationship with God just like everyone else.
I said nothing about heaven.


What I am saying is that liberal Christians are generally NOT going to be fighting against you in public policy. In fact, quite the oppostite. They will be fighting with you against all the "Christian Nation fundamentalists" that you seem to think are in power.
Aha. No, I don't think that "Christian Nation fundamentalists" are in power. I think that one happens to be the President, and there are several in high positions in the government, but not enough to implement major fundamentalist Christian initiatives. Additionally, all elected officials are smart enough (or crafty enough) to know that they have to keep the other 50% relatively happy if they're going to continue to get re-elected.

But the Christians are in power. Not the fundamentalists, but the Christians in general.

[Whisper9999]

I said nothing about heaven.


Aha. No, I don't think that "Christian Nation fundamentalists" are in power. I think that one happens to be the President, and there are several in high positions in the government, but not enough to implement major fundamentalist Christian initiatives. Additionally, all elected officials are smart enough (or crafty enough) to know that they have to keep the other 50% relatively happy if they're going to continue to get re-elected.

But the Christians are in power. Not the fundamentalists, but the Christians in general.

Okay, maybe this is mostly semantics. If we definte a "Christian" as anyone who calls him or herself a Christian, then I agree that the majority of the population is Christian. The only thing that doesn't make any sense to me about this way of looking at it is that evangelicals tend to vote one way or moral/social issues and all the liberal Christians the other way. so the problem is that your big voting bloc is non-homogenous (to say the least) and non-monlithic. To say that they're "in power" when they are very split and fragmented is stretching things by my definition...

[equinox2]

- Thanks for the compliment!


Whisper9999 wrote-

I hang around charismatic and evangelical Christian all the time and they all feel that ALL - and I emphasize ALL - of their evangelical friends regardless of denomination are going to heaven. Furthermore, the great majority of them feel comfortable around Catholic Christians as well.

Sure, they get along – but that wasn’t what you initially said – you said they agreed on core doctrine (their heaven status wasn't discussed either), and then mentioned something that they don’t agree on. We can both agree that they ignore their differences, for now at least.

Whisper9999 wrote:

To summarize: charismatic and evangelical populations, which are by and large the only groups that would supposedly enforce a "Christian Nation" on anyone, are a relatively small portion of the population. Maybe 10-25% of the population and certainly not enough to move political mountains.

We certainly see political mountains being moved, by the evangelical President Bush as Ben pointed out. All of the statistical data I’ve seen (and I cited the sources) show 35 to 50%, depending on how you define “evangelical”. If you disagree, please supply data.

Ben wrote:


But the Christians are in power. Not the fundamentalists, but the Christians in general.

I agree with this, whether we think the evangelicals are 10% or 50%, they aren’t in power. They have some influence, but not anything near what they want.

(Did you see the recent poll that over 30% of Americans were in favor of a constitutional amendment naming Christianity as the official Religion of America? – it was by Barna, in response to the pledge issue http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=18889 )

Whew – I’m glad that this discussion is cooling off a bit. I respect the people involved and don’t want to see anyone unhappy.

Have a fun (no, no, I mean a fulfilled) day-

[Whisper9999]

-
We certainly see political mountains being moved, by the evangelical President Bush as Ben pointed out. All of the statistical data I’ve seen (and I cited the sources) show 35 to 50%, depending on how you define “evangelical”. If you disagree, please supply data.



The very well-respected Barna states that only 7% are evangelicals:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=17

Only about 31% of the population can even be classified as claiming to be born again.

[Whisper9999]

- Thanks for the compliment!
Sure, they get along – but that wasn’t what you initially said – you said they agreed on core doctrine (their heaven status wasn't discussed either), and then mentioned something that they don’t agree on. We can both agree that they ignore their differences, for now at least.

Actually, I was saying more than that. I actually think that the great majority of people at a conference like that for example are "heaven bound". And if I think they're "heaven bound", then of course we agree on core doctrine. Core doctrine is what a Christian believes, by my definition anyway, is necessary to get to heaven.

The other differences are important but are just that not big of a deal any more. Please trust me that I know that evangelicals are VERY ecumenical now among fellow evangelicals. It's a whole different world than the stuff you read about in textbooks, etc.

[Whisper9999]

- Have a fun (no, no, I mean a fulfilled) day-

You too. But not TOO much fun, okay?

[misschief]

I'm not saying that Christians are getting severe persecution.

Yes, we get some. As this thread points out, it's fashionable nowadays to pick and bite at Christianity. But nothing major of course...
lol.. wanna know about persecution? try being a witch.

[Keith Dragon]

Why? Here's your philosphical equation:

happiness/self-fullfillment = meaning Just to be technical, and goofy simultaneously, do you mean happiness and self-fullfillment are interchngeable in the equation, meaning one represents the other, is that your meaning? Of happiness divided by self-fullfillment equals meaning. If so I disagree with both arguments, for I feel happiness is a product of un-conditional love. To do things for others without the expectation of receiving something in return. This is the true meaning of Karma in Balance.

I will agree though that Happiness is divded by Self-fulfillment, meaning that self-fullfilment rips apart happiness in time.

For example with your child, you put his happiness over yours, but because that is what you choose to do, in the ultimate end, seeing your child grow and blossom brings you happiness. This is Karma in Balance.

The is always something to be said about the happiness and joy one feels when giving. And if every single person in this world is giving simultaneously, then there would be noone at loss. But to give in the sense of an expectation of getting something in return, including happiness. This is wrong, for you are being self-fulfilling.

For example, the person that goes to church simply to be forgiven, and has the mindset that hey, I sacrificed my time to come to church, so all my wrongs should be forgiven. This is self-fulfilling. But to go to Church to be a part of the spirit that is your congregation, than that is True Happiness. To do it upon your own Free Will, and not under conditions set forth by your Free Will.

All in all, I believe we are on the same page, except, I don't feel happiness is a part of self-fulfillment, but an Illusion of Happiness is. People that do things that are self-fulfilling, such as purchase material things to make them happy, have only an Illusion of Happiness, and not Happiness itself.

Of course, it also depends upon your definition of happiness. To be, happiness is not Self-Fulfilment, but Soul-Fulfillment, that is filling my soul with the Christ Consciousness and being a conduit for that energy as I disperse it amongst those I love, as well as those I'm learning to Understand. To me, simply said, happiness is inner peace, which includes my peace with the world that surrounds me. To be completely embrace within that Love, and shining with happiness that inspires all around me to do the same.



This is very interesting to me. The more I think about your posts, the more I realize there may be a very fundamental difference between the typical Christian and the typical pagan. You wrote "in anyone's opinion" because I can tell you genuinely can't imagine anyone would write otherwise. The difference between Christianity and Paganism is this, Christianity only sees one 'Way', and in paganism there is multiple ways, and in most pagan circles I wander, Christianity is an excepted and spiritual Path in Pagan's eyes. Paganism is the name Christianity gave to all Spiritual Paths other than it's own. That include, Wicca, Celtic, Greek, Norse, Native American, Hindu, Taoist, and pretty much all religions except Jewish and Muslim. So you are right, in the sense that Paganism encompasses multiple traditions, whereas Christianity is One.


But I can't tell you the number of messages and conversations and books that I have read that emphasize that you do not love someone, or Someone for that matter, to get something from them. Nor do I believe that, if I read you correctly. I do not expect things from God simply because I follow God's Path laid before me, nor do I expect something from someone just because I give or do something for them. I do it because I do, free of expectation. And in all Spiritual Paths that I have studied, this is the same, the balance you find in Un-conditional Love.


And as I was writing that, I think the difference hit me finally: most of you guys see the universe as pantheistic, i.e. you see the universe as largely impersonal. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but let me go on.
Actually the difference is, as is expressed within your words, and I know not intentionally, that you see us as separate from you, and though I cannot speak for others, I see you existing with us all existing as One. I believe there is only One God, however, God is nameless, faceless, genderless, raceless, and religionless. God is the Absolute Truth, the Absolute Spirit. The Universal Consciousness, and God's lights shines upon the Earth through the Prism of Humanity within a rainbow of Faith. To me, all Spiritual Paths have their place within the Divine Plan, to help the Pilgrim along their way to Spiritual Ascension.

When our Soul comes of Age, we choose the spiritual Path that has the tools that will help us with our Spiritual Growth. For me, I see the Beauty in all religions, and see a clearer face of God from multiple directions. Not Paths that exist separately from eachother, but existing as a tapestry that beautifully expresses the Single Face of God. To see the All, and not the Pieces. Humanity is God, and God is Humanity. And I would never forsake any brother or sister because they choose to call a Black Bird a Crow and a Crow a Black Bird, or Water, Agua, and Agua, Water.


Now in my case I see it as personal. I see a loving God that personally cares about me. Am I going to love Him just because he can fulfill me? Am I going to love Him just because He gives wonderful gifts? Please excuse me if I misjudge your words, but I seem to feel that you are placing judgements upon what you think other spiritual paths are when compared to your own. I, in no way, do things for God simply because of a reward, I am not God's pet, no is any Pagan I know, no Christian. However, you say that, yet in Christianity, it is preached that the Gift of Heaven is only given those that follow the Path of Christ, so in an ultimate sense, that is exactly what you are doing.

I, myself, am a follower of Christ, though I am not Christian. Why? Because I feel that a True and Just God would care more for us to live in peace and harmony under One Understanding than to continually fight eachother in the Name of a Singular Religion. If this is not the case, than God has an Ego, and anyone that Understands Enlightenment knows that it cannot be achieved through an Ego. And if that is the case, then it is not a Just and True God, in my eyes.

I feel that the Christian Church has become what Christ originally was opposed to.


This kind of thinking would be anathema to virtually all of my Christian friends. I hope I'm making sense... Mine to. My problem is that most Christians I come across are more interested in Preaching their Path than walking their Path. Also, they do not take the time to learn and understand that which they are opposed to, yet was this not one of Jesus's teachings. Love your enemy. Well to Love your enemy, you must understand what they are. I don't think Christian's actually take the time to understand Pagans, they automatically cast judgement with the hearsay and smear campaigns of fellow Christians. Jesus taught me to not judge others, for I myself am no better, nor worse, but equal in God's eye, however, I find many Christians ready to cast stones upon me because I call Water, not Water, but Agua, instead.

Those that live by the sword, die by the sword, and Christians behavior sometimes compounds the rifts between both sides. Many pagans I know have a hatred towards Christianity for the way they have been treated by the Christian Church, for no other rason than having a different Spiritual Path.

For the Christians that have caused spiritual harm to my other brothers and sisters that are not Christian, I pray to God to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Please, do not take my words as confrontational, for we both act as bridges, and I merely only share with you the views of many I know. I think too many people walk around with the Swords of their faith, be it Jesus, or the Goddess, or Brahma, or what have you, not trully understanding the harm that they are doing in created a greater rift between all parties.

Hopefully through this all, we will find a path of least resistance and finally find peace.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

lol.. wanna know about persecution? try being a witch.

Care to elaborate??

[equinox2]

Whisper9999 wrote


The very well-respected Barna states that only 7% are evangelicals:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?...opic&TopicID=17

Only about 31% of the population can even be classified as claiming to be born again.

Good, now we have some hard definitions. However- I think we both agree that this is not the subset of Christianity Ben and I (or you) were referring to. Note first of all that you included some Catholics, while this group excluded Catholics due to their view on soteriology.

We can see from other findings that the group the three of us are talking about is larger than 7%. Recent polls have found that over 30% want to amend the constitution to make Christianity the official religion of America, and a full 60% want young-earth creationism taught in public schools, not to mention the 31% you mentioned that are “born-again” Christians.

So somehow we need to first define our group, and then agree on about what percentage they are. Is a definition of our group something like “Christians who view the Bible as inerrant, who believe that the positions they believe are “Christian” should be enforced on the US and who think other religious paths are not equally valid.”?

Maybe it is hard even for us to define what group we are talking about? Ben, what do you think?
Take care-

[Ben Trismegistus]

So somehow we need to first define our group, and then agree on about what percentage they are. Is a definition of our group something like “Christians who view the Bible as inerrant, who believe that the positions they believe are “Christian” should be enforced on the US and who think other religious paths are not equally valid.”?

Maybe it is hard even for us to define what group we are talking about? Ben, what do you think?
Take care-
Yeah, I've always thought that the best definition for "fundamentalist Christian" was a Biblical literalist, i.e. one who believes that the Bible is the absolute Word of God no questions asked. I think that's the group that was surveyed as 45% of the general public.

[Keith Dragon]

Yeah, I've always thought that the best definition for "fundamentalist Christian" was a Biblical literalist, i.e. one who believes that the Bible is the absolute Word of God no questions asked. I think that's the group that was surveyed as 45% of the general public.
Good Call Ben.

I shall forever more call them Literalists. I like that.

Dragon

[samiaminsane]

Originally posted by Whisper9999:Well, first of all, I want you to know that I'm not trying to say I'm perfect or anything. I fail all the time and I recognize how much I need God's help. But I'm really being honest when I say that choosing a religion that "fulfills and completes me" is secondary. That's simply a side benefit.

And, by the way, the well-known Christian mystic Madame Guyon emphasizes this fact. Imo true love has nothing to do directly with being fulfilled. In fact, that is imo VERY dangerous territory to walk upon...

And by the way, if this exasperates you - then just agree to disagree with me. I really don't want to frustrate you on this. There's no point in arguing about true love after all.
Trust me, no one said you were perfect. I just find it hard to believe that choosing a religion that makes you happy is secondary.

[Whisper9999]

Good Call Ben.

I shall forever more call them Literalists. I like that.

Dragon

Actually, I would bristle at the term 'literalist' and I think most knowledgeable Christians would as well. "Literalist" immediately brings to mind two very negative meanings:

1. Someone who does not consider historical and literary context and
2. Someone who takes a literal interpretation of obviously apochryphal or spiritually prophetic passages.

Most knowledgeable Christians that I know run from these #2 as fast as possible and don't want to be associated with them in any way.

But, hey, I'm happy if it's not an expletive!

[Whisper9999]

Trust me, no one said you were perfect. I just find it hard to believe that choosing a religion that makes you happy is secondary.

Yeah, it's very interesting. Many of Jesus' teachings were counter-cultural.

[Whisper9999]

I, myself, am a follower of Christ, though I am not Christian. Why? Because I feel that a True and Just God would care more for us to live in peace and harmony under One Understanding than to continually fight eachother in the Name of a Singular Religion. If this is not the case, than God has an Ego, and anyone that Understands Enlightenment knows that it cannot be achieved through an Ego. And if that is the case, then it is not a Just and True God, in my eyes.

I feel that the Christian Church has become what Christ originally was opposed to.

Mine to. My problem is that most Christians I come across are more interested in Preaching their Path than walking their Path. Also, they do not take the time to learn and understand that which they are opposed to, yet was this not one of Jesus's teachings. Love your enemy. Well to Love your enemy, you must understand what they are. I don't think Christian's actually take the time to understand Pagans, they automatically cast judgement with the hearsay and smear campaigns of fellow Christians. Jesus taught me to not judge others, for I myself am no better, nor worse, but equal in God's eye, however, I find many Christians ready to cast stones upon me because I call Water, not Water, but Agua, instead.

Those that live by the sword, die by the sword, and Christians behavior sometimes compounds the rifts between both sides. Many pagans I know have a hatred towards Christianity for the way they have been treated by the Christian Church, for no other rason than having a different Spiritual Path.

For the Christians that have caused spiritual harm to my other brothers and sisters that are not Christian, I pray to God to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Please, do not take my words as confrontational, for we both act as bridges, and I merely only share with you the views of many I know. I think too many people walk around with the Swords of their faith, be it Jesus, or the Goddess, or Brahma, or what have you, not trully understanding the harm that they are doing in created a greater rift between all parties.

Would you believe I missed your post somehow the first time around? I'm not quite sure how I did that! :)

And don't worry about being confrontational. I don't mind that one bit as long as there's a little rationality and minimal trash-talking.

I really agreed with most of what you said about unconditional love and that is precisely what I was getting at. I don't think most people understand that traditional Christianity is primarily about love and a relationship with God and so self-fullfilment just leaves us glazed over...

But I wanted to jump to what you said above. Look at the huge number of unprovable assumptions that underlie what you wrote:

1. Sin can be dealt with through human self-effort.
2. A "non-polar" spiritual realm, i.e. no real good/dark.
3. Moral and spiritual relativism
4. Gnosticism (hidden true knowledge behind all religions).

I could go on and on with a much more extensive list, but I think these four will give you an idea of where I'm headed. And here's my point: these underlying four assumptions are VERY unprovable. In fact, I would argue from science and history the opposite on every one of the points.

And here's another key point: universalism stands and falls on any one of these points. This is very shaky ground to say the least. What you hold as patently obvious is anything but...

Universalism seems nice on the surface because it seems all-embracing. But, unfortunately, it embraces much more than what most people stop to think about.

Where do you think one of the core lines of atheist reasoning comes from? (I'm being rhetorical not patronizing.) The spiritual and moral migraine that comes from looking at the above seeming disharmony! I am simplifying things, but here's the spiritual flight path of most atheists' transcontintental journey:

--The world's religions are divided into a myriad of religious forms.
--The world's religions are hopelessly muddled and clearly man-made.
--The world's religions are largely mutually exclusive and hopelessly irreconciliable.
--Therefore, there cannot be a personal God because He would not allow this situation.

You see, you have solved the above problem with gnosticism and many other assumptions. But the atheist solves it a different way that he/she feels is the only rational conclusion. And traditional Christianity solves it yet a different way and of course imo the only truly rational way. :)

[Ben Trismegistus]

Actually, I would bristle at the term 'literalist' and I think most knowledgeable Christians would as well. "Literalist" immediately brings to mind two very negative meanings:

1. Someone who does not consider historical and literary context and
2. Someone who takes a literal interpretation of obviously apochryphal or spiritually prophetic passages.

Most knowledgeable Christians that I know run from these #2 as fast as possible and don't want to be associated with them in any way.

But, hey, I'm happy if it's not an expletive!
Well, if I'm wrong, then correct me. But as far as I know, fundamentalist Christians are those who believe that the Bible is the LITERAL Word of God. Am I right?

This is the only group that will provided the "unified front" you say is necessary for a "Christian nation". Any other view of the Bible would leave it open to interpretation, leaving wiggle room on issues like abortion and gay rights.

[Whisper9999]

Well, if I'm wrong, then correct me. But as far as I know, fundamentalist Christians are those who believe that the Bible is the LITERAL Word of God. Am I right?

This is the only group that will provided the "unified front" you say is necessary for a "Christian nation". Any other view of the Bible would leave it open to interpretation, leaving wiggle room on issues like abortion and gay rights.

If that's what you mean by literal, then I see what you're saying.

[Ben Trismegistus]

If that's what you mean by literal, then I see what you're saying.
*grin* What else could I mean by literal?

[Whisper9999]

*grin* What else could I mean by literal?

Well, inerrant is really the correct term if you're going to talk to Christians. But I realize that hanging around Christians is not a huge desire at this point in your life. :)

Anyway, the reason "literal" will bother many Christians is because some Christians interpret the bible overly literally imo. Examples:

1. The Left Behind series.
2. Literal 24 hour days of creation.

I don't want anything to do with either one of the above and neither do a lot of other Christians. If you call me a "literalist", I picture you throwing me into that camp...

[Keith Dragon]

I don't think most people understand that traditional Christianity is primarily about love and a relationship with God and so self-fullfilment just leaves us glazed over...
No, every one does understand Christianity at it's core is about unconditional love and a relationship with God, the problem is that they don't live that path, but care more about Preaching it.

Also, do you honestly think that Christianity has a monopoly on unconditional love? Do you honestly think that other Spiritual Paths do not have this at their core as well?

This is not what I have an issue with over Christianity. Your thoughts may be pure, but your actions negate those thoughts.


But I wanted to jump to what you said above. Look at the huge number of unprovable assumptions that underlie what you wrote:
First, they are unprovable either way, in your direction and mine. Secondly, my words did not express my intent if you assume this is what I meant.

1. Sin can be dealt with through human self-effort.

No, it begins there though. And to make the effort to ask for forgiveness from God is the easy part, it is forgiving yourself that is the tough one.

2. A "non-polar" spiritual realm, i.e. no real good/dark.

No, the difference is that I do not look at goo and dark as separate entities, but both existing as one consisting of two-halves, not a mixture that hides one within the other so you can't see them. Also, understand that what I refer to is finding the balance between the two systems within the society we exist within.

3. Moral and spiritual relativism

What I refer to is not quite relativism, but an understanding that we each as individuals exist on different rungs upon the Ladder of Ascension. Thus we need different spiritual tools at different times within our souls Evolution to attain ascension. It sees all religions working as one all leading to the same understanding in the End. Meaning, when the spiritual path is finally achieved its Rapture, there can and only be one Face of God. But it takes the comprehension of the Journey to understand that.

4. Gnosticism (hidden true knowledge behind all religions).

Actually, I thought Gnosticism was a path of Christ, and one of the original paths. However, this is unproven as you say, because of the Arrogant Intent of your Own Church.

And personally, any Spiritual Path that feels the need to improve its standing by destroying the texts of all other paths that disagree with it, automatically invalidates it's position as a True Path in my opinion.


I could go on and on with a much more extensive list, but I think these four will give you an idea of where I'm headed. And here's my point: these underlying four assumptions are VERY unprovable. In fact, I would argue from science and history the opposite on every one of the points.
That would be an interesting attempt.


And here's another key point: universalism stands and falls on any one of these points. This is very shaky ground to say the least. What you hold as patently obvious is anything but...
Maybe so, but even your religion stands upon shaky ground. After all, we all currently live upon the Earth that is subject to Plate techtonics.


Universalism seems nice on the surface because it seems all-embracing. But, unfortunately, it embraces much more than what most people stop to think about.
What does it embrace, in your eyes, that it does not think about.


You see, you have solved the above problem with gnosticism and many other assumptions. But the atheist solves it a different way that he/she feels is the only rational conclusion.
That is because we exist at different locations along the Path of Spirit and are within different lessons within our spiritual growth. Atheism is still a spiritual path, even if they deny it. Such as choosing not to choose, is still a choice.


And traditional Christianity solves it yet a different way and of course imo the only truly rational way. :)
WOW, that's the funniest oxymoron I've heard in a long time. Christianity a RATIONAL WAY. he he he he he. Thanks that made my day.

But seriously, I am happy for you, follow it as far as your spirit desires.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

Also, do you honestly think that Christianity has a monopoly on unconditional love?
No, I don't and certainly didn't want to give that impression.

[Whisper9999]

WOW, that's the funniest oxymoron I've heard in a long time. Christianity a RATIONAL WAY. he he he he he. Thanks that made my day.


Themz fightin' words! Not characteristic of your normal posts. If you want to debate, I'm game - I can support my assertions.

I enjoy such discussions using both science and philosophical arguments, so just let me know...

[Whisper9999]

Actually, I don't know if we're allowed to have a debate on mw in the traditional sense, so I don't know what to say. I think only the universalist approach is allowed, so I'm not sure we can really discuss that. I think you win by default here. Oh well...

[aluokaloo]

This may not be a christian nation on the fact that we may worship freely, depending on where you live. But Christianity still dominates alot of this nation, I may not be in the American Biblebelt, and I'm glad I'm not. Since I'm rarely one to hide what my faith is, but first oof not all who's christian is Pro-life, not all who's pagan is pro-choice. The part-abortion law to me is wrong, but to others its not. The actual religion may not be oppressive in many cases of many christians they make it sound very beautiful. However many christians and no I'm not attacking merely making an observation are very oppressive. I'm glad for the changes and have crime rates gone up since the 60's yes. It has the same effect of damming up a river, one day trickles start coming out and before anybody can figuire the whole river is flooding. What was there has al;ways been there. There has always been crime in the world. The world has always been through rough times. I've never been harrassed as bad as some people, but after awhile when you've exhausted all your possibilities anbd civility to tell them I believe in something else it gets tiresome and you just to scream back off and leave me alone! Christianity isn't a bad thing, but some of the people make it really bad, and thats EVERY RELIGION. Just my buck fifty

[aluokaloo]

Actually, I'm not "boo-hooing" nor do I feel that persecuted at this time. If you read my posts, I only stated that humanists and hedonists were in the driver seat and had taken the reigns of power over in this country in the 60's. I'm not saying that Christians are getting severe persecution.

Yes, we get some. As this thread points out, it's fashionable nowadays to pick and bite at Christianity. But nothing major of course...


How can you say that everyone bites and picks at christianity? I may not like all of the things they do and at one point I did bite and pick at them quite a bit. However I rarely bite and pick at christians no matter what faith unless they bite me first. I'm sorry such things as letting people make choices in their own lives disturb you, I'm sorry that you feel that hedonism is such a horrible thing, I'm sorry that liberal christians bother you. Why do they? I'd rather hang out with my christian buddies who accept me for who I am and not what faith I follow. Is that such a horrible thing to learn from one another and to accept or dislike one another for who they are and not what they are? I'm just trying to figure you out Whisper thats all. What are you trying to say your like a rabbit dashing here and dodging there. I can't catch what your saying because your throwing me anyways off track what do you and don't youi disagree with besides abortion?

[Whisper9999]

How can you say that everyone bites and picks at christianity? I may not like all of the things they do and at one point I did bite and pick at them quite a bit. However I rarely bite and pick at christians no matter what faith unless they bite me first. I'm sorry such things as letting people make choices in their own lives disturb you, I'm sorry that you feel that hedonism is such a horrible thing, I'm sorry that liberal christians bother you. Why do they? I'd rather hang out with my christian buddies who accept me for who I am and not what faith I follow.

If I said everyone bites and picks at traditional Christianity, I didn't mean to. But it is socially acceptable and encouraged by much of the media (directly) and by many profs in higher education (in subtle ways).

And, yes, I do feel hedonism is wrong and a waste of a human life. But I would never try to force my views on anyone. It's their life of course...

[misschief]

Care to elaborate??
no not really. i've decided not to participate in this thread. have fun.

[Keith Dragon]

Originally Posted by Whisper9999 Actually, I'm not "boo-hooing" nor do I feel that persecuted at this time. If you read my posts, I only stated that humanists and hedonists were in the driver seat and had taken the reigns of power over in this country in the 60's. I'm not saying that Christians are getting severe persecution.

Yes, we get some. As this thread points out, it's fashionable nowadays to pick and bite at Christianity. But nothing major of course...


Whisper, Whisper, Whisper.

You claim in many of your posts about Pagans not Understanding Christians, yet do you truly understand the Pagans perspective. I do not think you really do. That's not a bad thing, but you make many accusations based on those assumptions.

You say that it is fashionable to pick and bite Christianity, but you are the one's that put the walls up. The we're better than you attitude. Don't deny it, it's in almost every post you do. You may not intend it that way, but that is the way you see it.

The one thing I don't think Christians truly realize that they do in their way of expressing themselves is that they push, and push, and push their views upon others through arrogant conceptions, then when someone can't take the pushing anymore and pushes back you all cry fowl play. Why? Because you can't even fathom in your own minds that what you are doing is wrong. You validate upon your own beliefs as right, but not the beliefs of others. You do not realize that you are acting negatively towards others, and in my opinion interfering with Free Will.

Now please realize that I refer to your behavior and not the core beliefs of your faith. For 2000 years, Christianity has ben the oppressor, killing and burning in your God's name. Dislocating people and pillaging country villages in the pursuit of spreading your so called "Peaceful" and "Unconditional Love" religion.

Is it not understandable, that those you have so beaten into submission, that have fallen into the shadows just to escape your wrath for fear of persecution, are now finding an equal footing in America, and in the World. And is it not Understandable that these people, who have spent generation upon generation pushed into the darkened corner of society will begin to show signs of anger for wha has been done to them all these long years.

Do not cry to me because you feel you have no control within this country. You always have a seat at the table of freedom in this country, however you refuse to sit, and play unfairly, because you want it all, and no play as equals.

Do you not see the arrogance of your ways. And again, to be clear, I do not speak of the doctrine of your belief, but the way you force your views upons others.

You say here that as is evident in this thread the picking and biting that is done against Christianity, but are you not on a Pagan Forum, does that not make sense that if you come in here preaching your religion, that those that have been offended by your faith, and persecuted by your faith are goind to defend themselves, as I am sure you would defend yourself within a Christian Forum.

The difference between you and I is that you will always be offered a seat at my table as my Equal, but i really do not feal that you will ever accept me at yours as your equal unless I bow down to your Dogmatic Interpretation of the Universe.

Now with that, who is truly following the teachings of Jesus. You speak of Unconditional love, but for you, your love HAS conditions, and that is a conforming to your "RATIONAL" way of thinking.

Of course, you probably will take this entire post as another example of the negativity that is against your Church, completely oblivious to the fact that you bring it upon your self.

Do you not realize that with every push of your ideals, you strengthen the validity of those that oppose you. This is where the frustration you feel reflected back at you comes from, and again, not in what you believe, but the fact that you patronize others by touting a superior religion. You do not even offer people the chance to explain themselves, without attacking their very existence.

The next time you feel that you are being attacked by a pagan, understand that it may just be the way you are acting toward them. Of course there are those that are beyond rage, and those are the one's that have been persecuted the most, so please forgive them their frustration. They are merely trying to find understanding in this crazy world we all spin within.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

liberal christians bother you.
They don't bother me. I just don't agree with them.

Keep in mind that my attitude is that this is the Theology Forum. You have to realize that universalists, which includes most people on mw, are the only ones who "agree" with pretty much everybody. I don't think there's anything wrong, in the theology forum only, to say if you disagree and you have some rational support. I thought that was the purpose actually of the theology area.

If I'm missing something, let me know...

[Whisper9999]

no not really. i've decided not to participate in this thread. have fun.

I genuinely enjoy spirited discussion and I know I sometimes offend people. I'm genuinely sorry if I did that - I think a lot of it is personality differences. But I could be wrong!

[Whisper9999]

Whisper, Whisper, Whisper.

You claim in many of your posts about Pagans not Understanding Christians, yet do you truly understand the Pagans perspective. I do not think you really do. That's not a bad thing, but you make many accusations based on those assumptions.

You say that it is fashionable to pick and bite Christianity, but you are the one's that put the walls up. The we're better than you attitude. Don't deny it, it's in almost every post you do. You may not intend it that way, but that is the way you see it.

Okay, I'll examine myself. I was just calling it as I saw it. You see for me it's not that big of a deal if you guys would "pick and bite" at traditional Christianity. I would expect that. In fact, it's really the only logical thing that you could do in many ways.

But, again, I'll try to look in the mirror and see if I'm hyper-sensitive.

[Whisper9999]

Whisper, Whisper, Whisper.

The one thing I don't think Christians truly realize that they do in their way of expressing themselves is that they push, and push, and push their views upon others through arrogant conceptions, then when someone can't take the pushing anymore and pushes back you all cry fowl play. Why? Because you can't even fathom in your own minds that what you are doing is wrong. You validate upon your own beliefs as right, but not the beliefs of others. You do not realize that you are acting negatively towards others, and in my opinion interfering with Free Will.


When I have been pushy?? Here's my interpretation. You had a post where you said, "I'm right and you're wrong."

Then I wrote back and said there are three general competing worldviews: pantheism, materialism and theism. I said that each had very strong reasons and that your position was not provable or obvious.

Then you got all mad and said that you were right and that I was unreasonable when actually my main argument was that atheism was just as strong as any other position.

So I have been much less aggessive than you. Read your posts: you always say that you are right. I very carefully insert "imo" and many other such expressions to temper my assertiveness.

[Whisper9999]

Do not cry to me because you feel you have no control within this country.
Dragon

I already covered this with Ben. I'm not crying and don't feel I'm that persecuted.

[misschief]

I genuinely enjoy spirited discussion and I know I sometimes offend people. I'm genuinely sorry if I did that - I think a lot of it is personality differences. But I could be wrong!
i couldn't resist the nosiness in me.. i had to come back... Muahahaha...
anyway.. the only thing i found offensive was your lack of knowledge and accuracy. *shrug*.. hey it happens.

[Whisper9999]

Now with that, who is truly following the teachings of Jesus. You speak of Unconditional love, but for you, your love HAS conditions, and that is a conforming to your "RATIONAL" way of thinking.


I think we're getting to the root of the issue here. My post went like this: I said that pantheism, atheism and theism all had their reasons. I then joked around at the end of the thread and said that I thought mine was the most rational and put a smiley at the end.

You took this personally and thought I was saying you were irrational I think. I did NOT say that and don't think that. That's why I put a smiley at the end.

Look - let me ask you this question? Which one of us believes in the most irrational position? We all think we're right and that we have the most rational position or we wouldn't hold it!

So I just don't get what I did that was so heinous. You guys are very sensitive - I can't figure you out.

How do you guys ever discuss anything where you disagree? I just don't get it. I guess when I think about it, most of the thread on mw are "pat each other on the back" kind of threads. And I'm not complaining about that - that's great.

But to me part of life is disagreeing at times - not all the time! - and having a good healthy debate so that you can learn from one another. But that may not be the desire of most on mw, because I'm definitely not used to this.

[Keith Dragon]

Okay, I'll examine myself. I was just calling it as I saw it. You see for me it's not that big of a deal if you guys would "pick and bite" at traditional Christianity. I would expect that. In fact, it's really the only logical thing that you could do in many ways.

But, again, I'll try to look in the mirror and see if I'm hyper-sensitive.
Please understand, that if I did not care I would not write. And like you, I am calling it like I see it.

But here is an example of what I mean, and let me break it down.

Above you say that if we pick and bite at you in regards to Christianity you expect that, because that is the only logical thing we could do.

Now, by this comment, do you understand the frustration they have felt through their lives in being constantly questioned in regards to the validity of their beliefs and are merely venting.

Or is your intent to say that it is the logical outcome of their response because they cannot intellectually debate with you, so they resort to kicking and fighting.

Do you see the multiple meanings cast within your words.

If you do not mean the latter, that does not mean that others would not see it either.

If it is a true debate your desire, by all means PM me, and begin the debate. I could go for a good game of Chess.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

i couldn't resist the nosiness in me.. i had to come back... Muahahaha...
anyway.. the only thing i found offensive was your lack of knowledge and accuracy. *shrug*.. hey it happens.

Well, it doesn't sound like you want to "mess with it", but I love a debate. I challenge you to "make me knowledgeable" if I'm wrong... ;)

[Keith Dragon]

When I have been pushy?? Here's my interpretation. You had a post where you said, "I'm right and you're wrong."
This was in regards to your tying happiness with self-fulfillment, not your core beliefs. Do you see the difference.

What I said was that happiness is not achieved by self-fulfillment, but the Illusions of Happiness was.

In you comment previous to that, you said what is the point of happiness.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

Is that such a horrible thing to learn from one another and to accept or dislike one another for who they are and not what they are?

It's just a personality thing. I learn by debate and discussion. I'm clearly offending everyone which I really don't want to do.

I like people to tell me I'm wrong. I like to learn by my mistakes. I have learned a lot for example from atheists even though I disagree with their conclusions.

And here's the most important thing: through all the intense debates with atheists, for example, I now understand why they believe what they believe and have much greater sympathy for them.

You have to realize that I'm used to discussing things with agnostics, seekers, atheists and deists and rarely with a universalist. I am just now learning that universalists are MUCH more sensitive than I'm used to.

I'm like a bull in the theological china shop. I'm not sure how to act or what to say any more...

You guys chased me out... :(

[misschief]

Well, it doesn't sound like you want to "mess with it", but I love a debate. I challenge you to "make me knowledgeable" if I'm wrong... ;)
bah.. i've been in too many debates over the details of christianity. one of these days i'll feel fiesty and lay it all out. as for now... i really don't care.. lol. *shrug*

[Keith Dragon]

Look - let me ask you this question? Which one of us believes in the most irrational position? We all think we're right and that we have the most rational position or we wouldn't hold it!
But for me, I accept that both are rational.


So I just don't get what I did that was so heinous. You guys are very sensitive - I can't figure you out.
Like I mentioned, many pagans are sensitive from being whipped all these years. A soul can only take so much. This is what i am trying to portray to you. You have to be careful who and where you open up a debate about Christianity because it opens old wounds. In a way, this site has become an oasis, a sort of support group for those that have deep wounds.


How do you guys ever discuss anything where you disagree? I just don't get it. I guess when I think about it, most of the thread on mw are "pat each other on the back" kind of threads. And I'm not complaining about that - that's great.
I think that Christianity is the exception here, and in most pagan circles. Please understand that you are speaking with people that have been called Satanists simply for wearing a pentacle in school, or at work, and have felt great deals of persecution from Christians.


But to me part of life is disagreeing at times - not all the time! - and having a good healthy debate so that you can learn from one another. But that may not be the desire of most on mw, because I'm definitely not used to this.
Again, when a True Christian tends to wander into our little safe house, their usual intent is to burst in and to either condemn everyone, or try to save them. Don't take it personally, history is against you here.

Also, the rules here are in place for a reason, because we here are very sensitive due to our wounds. I'm sure you have been to other Pagan sites where those rules are not in place, and it is like the Wild Wild West.

But if you wish a true debate, please PM me.

Dragon

[Whisper9999]

bah.. i've been in too many debates over the details of christianity. one of these days i'll feel fiesty and lay it all out. as for now... i really don't care.. lol. *shrug*

Yeah, a kind of interesting thing that someone pointed out to me (which I had thought about but not enough) was the fact that the universalist paradigm creates a relaxed atmosphere about spiritual truth (as likely would imo a belief in reincarnation). In other words, "all roads lead to the same path so who cares what path you're on and why debate it"?

I guess all I can say is let me know when you get "fiesty"... :)

[Kyan's Daddy]

But we don't want to understand moslems, even though we are fighting them?

I'm new to this forum, but love a good religious debate...

Just so you know, three are those who claim the path, and those who walk the path. I've read the Quran, and let me tell you this: bin Laden is no more Muslim than I am. Nothing these guys do is sanctioned by Allah or the Quran. We're not fighting Muslims. We're fighting people who have been manipulated into fighting, just like how Hitler manipulated Germany into the extermination of the Jews. Osama bin Laden is simply using religion as a tool to twist the minds of those loyal to him.

[Kyan's Daddy]

I've noticed that Christianity is one of the only religions being picked apart on this forum.

I think the main reason why Christianity is such a target is because of what I call "The Self-Importance of Being Christian." It's not enough that they believe in Jesus, the Bible, God, etc... But you need to believe it, too. It's not enough that they think there's a "Heaven" and a "Hell", but they must be right!!! Everyone else must be wrong!!! There is a ton of hypocrisy in the Christian church: Love thy neighbor, but condemn those who do not believe. Do unto others as you would have done unto thyself, but ostracize gays. Marriage is a sacred covenant... As long as it's not interracial or same-sex. Pagans... Well, we're all sinners who must be saved, or we all die and suffer in hell. Personally, I think the Christian God is a tyrant. How many times have I heard "Good God-fearing Christians"? I am never going to worship anything that seeks to rule through fear or eternal imprisonment in the fiery pits of hell.

Christians ask me, "Well, what do you worship?" I say, "I don't worship anything. I have a partnership with the God and Goddess, with mutual love and mutual respect. They accept me without judging me, and I accept them without comparison to others. They don't demand 10% of my pay, and they don't require specific days to talk to them."

[DragonsChest]

I know when you all talk about how Christians always have to be right about their views, that you are not singling me out at all. I am not that insecure to think that. But I would like to point out that just as all pagans are not the same in their beliefs and actions, I and many, many other Christians are not the type who try to make you just like us. There are a lot of Christians who are happily following our path and happy to let you follow yours. Please do try to remember that, and not blast every Christian you may come across. And I do wish that Christians would give you the same courtesy.