Christianity: True or False

[Ron]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?

(edit) Due to some shortsighted persons, I would like everyone to please refer to this post (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1366001&postcount=137) before insulting me as a Christian or as anything else. Thank you.

[edit edit] The above edit no longer fully applies. A year is a long time.

[Pandoras]

This is another potentially dangerous thread, but I'll post anyway.

I do believe that Christianity is a valid and very real religion. It isn't for me, but nevertheless. And, yes, I do believe in a real, flesh and blood, historical Jesus.

[Tsuchimaru]

I think it's a true religion....not one I follow, but that doesn't make it false. :)

....I get a feeling that this thread shall end badly.... :nuhuh:

[Ron]

This is another potentially dangerous thread, but I'll post anyway. Have faith :) Perhaps if people are kind then peace will come.

[Brigid Bishop]

Christianity is a true religion, perhaps you meant to poll as to whether or not members "believe" in the Christian doctrine?

[misschief]

This is another potentially dangerous thread, but I'll post anyway.

i agree. i chose the first option, just because. i'm not going to say much further because i'm not going to bash christianity, or be accused of it. :)

[Sadb]

I believe it is a real religion and as the others said its just not for me . I do however have a problem with some of it followers thinking its the only true religion . Not that all are like this but I have met plenty that think this way . I think as long as people believe in something , anything even the energy they send out has to form some kind of entity . Just one of my many philosophies that should prove me insane .

[misschief]

I believe it is a real religion and as the others said its just not for me . I do however have a problem with some of it followers thinking its the only true religion . Not that all are like this but I have met plenty that think this way . I think as long as people believe in something , anything even the energy they send out has to form some kind of entity . Just one of my many philosophies that should prove me insane .that's kind of what i think too!!! ohhhh, can we be crazy together? please??? lol

[Sadb]

that's kind of what i think too!!! ohhhh, can we be crazy together? please??? lol

LOL , I just starting thinking that because like christians I believe there is one true entity , its neither good or bad and it is man not the gods that created good and evil . I believe we created gods to show our devotion towards a certian aspect of life . Ok if I continue going on about my belief structure I'm going to start rambling .

[Storm Moon]

I believe that it's real and there was a real life Jesus eons ago. As far as following a belief system that surrounds him, eh, that's kind of a grey area for me.

[Pan]

Yes, I believe that Christianity is a real religion. Personally, I don't see the point in this question. That'd be like someone posting up if Paganism was real or a joke.

[Rubber_Piggy]

You cannot deny that Christ existed because his life is documented. The only question is whether or not he is the Messiah :hailmol: Christians belive he is. It's not my place to decide if anothers faith is valid and being open-minded is one of my fundamental principals.

I do however think that some Christians do not believe what they say they do

[bshore]

I agree with Loki. This question was worded funny. If you're interested in knowing how many people follow the Christian path, perhaps you should rephrase your question. Christianity is no more a joke than Islam, Buddhism, Paganism, or Atheism. They are real beliefs, and many of us know a Christian who would vouch for their validity.

Rhys, perhaps you should clarify exactly what kind of a discussion or answer you were looking for? Or mayby I'm just confusled tonight. :nyah:

[Mab]

or maybe rhys was just trying to start something......

[unicornlightining]

I agree with those that have said that yes it is true, but no I do not fallow it. I also belive that there was a Jesus. As said before there is historical evandence of his life. Baseing a religion of his death and rebirth. It reminds me very much of the pagan weel of the year and the birth and death of the horned god i.e. the Oak or Holly King, or Green Man. (he has so many names)
The Greatest Good to All :wave:

[WingedTigerChild]

I think perhaps rhys was asking whether or not [we think] the mainstream idea of Christianity is true or false. I.E. The literal interpretation of the bible, Jesus as God and Messiah, etc. So I'm going to offer up my beliefs on the subject...

I do not think that the bible was meant to be interpreted literally, as there are many things in contradiction to each other when done so. I.E. Paul's speech on women in the church versus Jesus. If we read the bible according to it's historical, cultural and scriptural context, it makes sense and does not contradict itself. For those unfamiliar with Christ, he often spoke in metaphors, and were Christians to take such things literally, they'd be gouging out their eyeballs and other such nonsense.

I don't think that Jesus ever claims to be God, or "the way, the truth and the life." Rather, I think Jesus was (like Buddha, Krishna, etc.) enlightened, and that he spoke only of his actions in regards to "the way, the truth and the life." I don't think he meant that he, specifically, was the "only way to Heaven, enlightenment, eternal peace, etc." The bible (esp. the NT) is really very interesting when read how I believe it was meant to be. In fact, I think it's very "Buddhist" in nature, and that, although denied by many, it also supports the idea of reincarnation or rebirth.

[Ben Trismegistus]

ADMIN MODE

I should close this thread for simply putting the text "Christianity is a joke" in the poll options. However, the thread itself is producing some interesting conversation, so I'll keep it open for now. But I'm keeping my eye on it. Anything that looks like Christian-bashing will result in immediate closure of the thread.

Rhys, perhaps you could clarify your original meaning and I could alter the poll accordingly. Are you asking who is a Christian and who is not? Or simply whether you think Christianity is a valid religion?

[-Sky-]

I voted for the first but I don't exactly believe that "Christianity is a joke".I think that the creator of the poll just wanted to contradict and that's why he created this option.
I am against many of Christianism's beliefs and I am against Christians trying to convert other people,meaning that I am against Modern Church and not the main idea of Christianism.I don't bash Christianism since I know that there are many Christians here and I respect they're religion as they respect mine.I believe that Jesus existed,the he was a real and historical person.But noone can be sure if he was the Messiah or just an enlighted man.

~Anna

[Karma Chameleon]

Well, it's a vaild religion, as is any other.

[Morr]

i think Christianity is a joke in the sense that its NOT what Jesus spoke of. Most of his teachings are lost to us, and Christianity as we know it today is NOT based on his words, but rather on molding & inventions & add ons that the Church & its founders have made.

I do think Jesus was a historical figure, and I have great respect for him and the the followers of Christianity in general (as long as they dont shove it down my throat and tell me im going to hell). However, I think that the Church itself, as in the Organized Religion Christianity has been made into, the commercialized~esque side of it - Is a joke because the true meaning of Divine Love, Respect & Worship has been long lost within the lies, hate & fear.

[Sleet]

Christianity is very real to those who embrace it. And that's just fine.

I do not, however, embrace it. And that's just fine too.

- Sleet the Goddess-prayin' Quarters-invokin' Sabbat-observin' pagan is married to one Christian and raising two young Christians

[Tullip Troll]

Of course it's valid...not perfect and infalible and full of untruths like all the others...but very real...how can one even suggest that someones relationship with God (any God) is not real or a joke.

WHat awful wording for your choices.

MheraPai

[Tarbh Nathroch]

I vote “No, Christianity is real” because to a great many it is. Who are we to question their beliefs?

[Athena-Nadine]

Yes, I believe Christianity is a real religion (so is Judaism and Islam), and I believe the Abrahamic god exists. He's not my god, has nothing to do with me, nor me with Him, so it makes no difference whatsoever. None of it has anything to do with me.

There really should have been a "Who Cares?" option.

[Tzhebee]

i think Christianity is a joke in the sense that its NOT what Jesus spoke of. Most of his teachings are lost to us, and Christianity as we know it today is NOT based on his words, but rather on molding & inventions & add ons that the Church & its founders have made.

I do think Jesus was a historical figure, and I have great respect for him and the the followers of Christianity in general (as long as they dont shove it down my throat and tell me im going to hell). However, I think that the Church itself, as in the Organized Religion Christianity has been made into, the commercialized~esque side of it - Is a joke because the true meaning of Divine Love, Respect & Worship has been long lost within the lies, hate & fear.
Morr pretty much summed up my feelings on it.

[semi]

I believe in the King Missile song "Jesus Was Way Cool". I think, if he existed, he would've been a cool guy to hang out with. He seemed like a hippie buddhist kind of guy and a shaman, a man of knowledge. And I think building a new religion out of bits and pieces of older religions is also kind of cool. Using that religion to destroy other cultures, however, kind of pisses me off. Most of the Christians here seem like good folks and I have a few Christian friends who are incredibly good people. But there are many that give the religion a bad rep just like with any religion.

None of this actually answers the question, though, so is it a joke? Depends on who's telling the joke and who thinks it's funny.

[Ron]

View Poll Results: Do you believe Christianity is true or false?
Yes, Christianity is a joke. 13 33.33%
No, Christianity is real. 13 33.33%
Abstain. 13 33.33%


-- it's all 13 a piece!! :) gah

[Ron]

I agree with Loki. This question was worded funny. If you're interested in knowing how many people follow the Christian path, perhaps you should rephrase your question. Christianity is no more a joke than Islam, Buddhism, Paganism, or Atheism. They are real beliefs, and many of us know a Christian who would vouch for their validity.

Rhys, perhaps you should clarify exactly what kind of a discussion or answer you were looking for? Or mayby I'm just confusled tonight. :nyah:
Helwo... I wasn't interested in how many Christians there are here. I wanted to know how many believe in the religion as a vaild one.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

I am in no position to tell another person that their religion is not valid.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Djiril]

I don't think "true" or "false" is really the issue. I have no reason to think that any religion has it completely right, and I think any religion, by nature, is a volatile force which can be used for good or evil.

[bshore]

Helwo... I wasn't interested in how many Christians there are here. I wanted to know how many believe in the religion as a vaild one.

ok, thank you for clarifying.

I find it hard to believe anyone here would feel they were qualified to tell someone their religion was not "valid", but there certainly are quite a few. To each their own. :smile:

[Ron]

You are welcome :D

[Toby Stimpson]

My comment on this will be to tell a story I perticularly like...and it came from the words of a wise Sikh...

'The Guru brought several blind students into a yard one day. He asked each to feel out and touch what was before them. Being blind they could not see what was before them and felt out. Each feeling the same thing. He asked the first one, 'tell me, what do you think this is?' And the boy looked up and replied, "I know exactly what this is...it's a great wall." He asked the second, "And what do you thinks this is?" The boy replied, "I don't think, I know...this is a hanging vine. The first student is wrong." The Guru nodded, and moved over to the last student, and asked the same thing. The third boy replied, "This is a great tree trunk..." The Guru noded, and then told them all what it was.

The mystery item they had all been feeling and describing was in fact an Elephant. His trunk swinging like a vine, His wide side like a wal, and his leg like a great tree trunk. They all bowed their heads in shame that they had presumed they know what was right, and then the Guru said, "Do not be ashamed in your idea in what the Elephant was...it took creative hinking to think that. Be ashamed however in being intolerant of your fellows ideas. The Elephant is a metaphor for the universe...which we all cannot see because in a way we are all blind. Think of life like that, and then you will eventually see the universe."

We all think that what we see, our perticular faith is the correct and highest. However, we all have room for interpretation...and that can account for the divirsity of Religious and philisophical thought in the world. We each gain a part of what we need to learn each life from differing religions...which will eventually lead to our understanding of that entity called the Divine. But, tolerance of differing views must be a staple for any spiritual person, becasue as the Mahatma once said, 'There are as many religions on Earth as there are people.". As for the question of 'is Christinaity a joke or not'...well, the religion affects those who lead it...so every religion can become a joke based on the actions of it's followers...so think more, are Xians a joke or not...and if there is just one Christian who isnt...then Christianity isnt a joke...just some in it. :)...Namaste

Tobias

[Romani Vixen]

Christianity is true for some, and not true for others.

By saying that such-and-such religion is a joke, you open yourself to the same critisism.

[FaeFollower]

I don't really see how anyone can say Christianity is 'not real', as evidenced by the millions of devout Christians all over the world...It's obviously real to them. I personally can't identify with it, but that doesn't make it any less real. JMO.

[Shatril]

Well said Galadraal I like that. I also have a quote from a bumper sticker "I don't have a problem with Jesus, but some of his follower I do have a problem with." or something close to that. I think all religions are right. All of us are going to end up in the same place regardless of what we believe. The lessons we learn here will help everyone along their way. Tolerance is the key issue. No one is right, no one is wrong. It isn't important to be right. What you believe is what you decide is best from what you know. My theory of religion is that they all have something worth listening to. Take what rings true for you and leave the rest behind. That is why my chosen path is eclectic pagan. I have my own set of beliefs and I don't expect anyone to believe as I do. I share my belief, and listen as others share theirs. I adjust my beliefs accordingly, as I find things that ring true.

[Velvet]

I'm not the one to judge what is real for some people.

[WingedTigerChild]

My comment on this will be to tell a story I perticularly like...and it came from the words of a wise Sikh...

'The Guru brought several blind students into a yard one day. He asked each to feel out and touch what was before them. Being blind they could not see what was before them and felt out. Each feeling the same thing. He asked the first one, 'tell me, what do you think this is?' And the boy looked up and replied, "I know exactly what this is...it's a great wall." He asked the second, "And what do you thinks this is?" The boy replied, "I don't think, I know...this is a hanging vine. The first student is wrong." The Guru nodded, and moved over to the last student, and asked the same thing. The third boy replied, "This is a great tree trunk..." The Guru noded, and then told them all what it was.

The mystery item they had all been feeling and describing was in fact an Elephant. His trunk swinging like a vine, His wide side like a wal, and his leg like a great tree trunk. They all bowed their heads in shame that they had presumed they know what was right, and then the Guru said, "Do not be ashamed in your idea in what the Elephant was...it took creative hinking to think that. Be ashamed however in being intolerant of your fellows ideas. The Elephant is a metaphor for the universe...which we all cannot see because in a way we are all blind. Think of life like that, and then you will eventually see the universe."Good stuff. :)

[flar7]

I edited to poll to make it a valid question without the inflammatory joke remark. Now both are equal statements. Something can be false and not be a joke, and something true can also be a joke.

and be warned, this thread is on knifes edge due to its built in problems. A NO TOLERANCE POLICY IS IN PLACE, and I will close the thread on the slightest break from decorum.

[Ron]

Yes, Christianity is real. 14 26.92%
No, Christianity is real. 21 40.38%
Abstain. 17 32.69%

that's great?! so it's either real or real? LOL please fix it again :)

[flar7]

ok. got it. the double negative aspect of it made it difficult to work. No, its real? seems an oxymoron, so I got confuzled and forgot the "not" on the appropriate line.

[Ron]

lol.. it's okay man, it only happens to the best of us. :)

[unicornlightining]

That wording really helps. Thanx Flar. _firedevil

[dr_zeus440]

There really should have been a "Who Cares?" option.
nuff said

[Doodlebug]

Yes, Christianity is a valid and real religion. But then again I'm biased considering that I am a Christian. ;) It may not be the right religion for everyone out there though and believe me, I totally understand that.

[Shatril]

I just realized where I had seen the quote about Christians. It is on Rhys signature line. hehehehe he has a post just below. It is attributed to Mahatma Ghandi. I guess that doesn't surprise me. He is the person that I most admire, but was not aware of this quote by him.

[Toby Stimpson]

That is because Mahatma Gandhi never said that...he was a full supporter of Christ and one of his best friends was a Christian. He just condemned conversion by anyone into Christianity, or Islam...or any other religion. Where did you get that quote from Rhys?

[Ron]

That is because Mahatma Gandhi never said that...he was a full supporter of Christ and one of his best friends was a Christian. He just condemned conversion by anyone into Christianity, or Islam...or any other religion. Where did you get that quote from Rhys?
Tobias you shite... http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1905 not only is it there, but in many other places... Ghandi did say it. :sick:

[HorseCrow]

Real.

[Aislin Amaris]

woo hoo! Nothing like a little Catholic debate to get the blood pumping (except maybe politics!).
Well, long long ago- at a time in my life when I was searching for myself and my faith (the teenage years) I had a firend who was much older than me. He said something that changed my life. there are many religions in this world. They can't all be wrong and they can't all be right- but they are all similar. they all have people willing to die for them, people willing to sacrifice for them, and people who take them to the wrong levels. When we die we will go to heaven where we will be taught the right path. When we have learned from our mistakes and accepted them- we will be let in.
Kinda deep for a 16 year old- but I really believe it.
Many Catholic events and traditions and so on are only borrowed from other religions and then changed. I think that there was a man named Christ who, like DaVinci and Nostradamus, was a visionary- a man before his time. i believe his followers made him a God and developed a religion for him. In order for it to be easily assimilated by the people of the old world, they had to adopt many atributes of other peoples religions.
If only the Catholics would realize that!
And that's all I have to say about that!

[Ceallach]

I believe Christianity is as real to those who believe it, as my beliefs are real to me.

[Kalika]

What is a "true" religion? And is there even such a thing.... how do you know?

IMO, a religion is a path of belief in something greater than yourself.

So yes, that would make Christianity a religion. Do I believe in the Christian God? Not necessarily. I know alot of people put all of their belief in him, and I respect that. It's not my place to tell them that their belief is wrong. :) Well, until they try to shove it down my throat and tell me I'm going to hell because I'm not a Christian... but that's another story!

As for Jesus, I believe that he lived. I don't know that I can put faith in what the bible and other books say of him as being true, because things tend to get twisted around and changed as they are handed through history. But I admire some of the things that he was apparently trying to teach (again... texts not always so great on exact points), and I'll respect someone else's belief in him as the lamb who was to remove all of mankind's sins, etc. It works, and works well, for many people to follow this religion and this path, it just doesn't work for me.

:)

Blessings,

Kalika

[bshore]

Well said Galadraal I like that. I also have a quote from a bumper sticker "I don't have a problem with Jesus, but some of his follower I do have a problem with." or something close to that. I think all religions are right. All of us are going to end up in the same place regardless of what we believe. The lessons we learn here will help everyone along their way. Tolerance is the key issue. No one is right, no one is wrong. It isn't important to be right. What you believe is what you decide is best from what you know. My theory of religion is that they all have something worth listening to. Take what rings true for you and leave the rest behind. That is why my chosen path is eclectic pagan. I have my own set of beliefs and I don't expect anyone to believe as I do. I share my belief, and listen as others share theirs. I adjust my beliefs accordingly, as I find things that ring true.

I believe the bumper sticker goes "I like Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand"

[Holly Ariadna]

Christianity is definitely real.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

why is any one religion more valid than another?

[SilentDreams]

This is another potentially dangerous thread, but I'll post anyway.

I do believe that Christianity is a valid and very real religion. It isn't for me, but nevertheless. And, yes, I do believe in a real, flesh and blood, historical Jesus.

Yes I must agree.

[Aidron]

A true religion? Sure, it just doesn't hold my truth.

However, I believe faith is what you put into it. Whether any of us like it or not all religion came from mankind at some point, and Christianity, Wicca, and so forth are no different. I do believe man wrote the bible, not God, as I cannot imagine any divine being's words lacking such clarity. Then again, perhaps the clarity was too much for man to comprehend.

I stand firm, however, in my belief that the bible was written by men desiring power. That, however does not make the religion invalid or irrelevant in my opinion, since faith is what you put into it, not what those before you put into it.

[barlitone]

For the true believers, it's 100% as valid as Wicca and paganism are to me.

[Aidron]

For the true believers, it's 100% as valid as Wicca and paganism are to me.


Well that's a given. Validity of faith is based upon perspective and not facts, however, so there is no way to discern if any religion is 'true' beyond whether or not it is true for you.

[Toby Stimpson]

I stand corrected on the Ghandi quote...but I'm highly suspecting of it just based on what I know of the Mahatma. Ofcourse if it's on a website, then it must be true...

Tobias

[phyrefly]

A religious stance is true for the believer, not necessarily true for the Other listening to the believer's attempt to sway the Other by means of a certain style. Yesterday, a non-christian into Greek things and India things tells me that white elephants were not kosher to own because of the cost of feeding one, and symbolized the fall of power....this glosses over the idea that to eliminate a white elephant only engenders a minority of that minority, and the dark elephants then have nothing by which to define themselves as non-white elephants. Hilarious indeed. Since in nature, it takes quite a while for another albino to emerge, this type of reverse-discriminatory thinking is hiding something from us. What it hides is that the white elephant as a symbol, still has a function, even if it cannot do work, only eats, etc., regardless of color. Beware the mouth that utters 'Worthless eater.' In other words, it's like the police as the symbol of the super-ego: this symbol is helping us even when we don't think it is. Ironic that even if the white elephant cop does nothing, it is still functioning as a symbol. The function of this symbol is to oppose the cynical types, by reminding us that our ego means something, but not all that much, in a democracy.

[Toby Stimpson]

*looks about*...huh?...that makes no sense, in India, white elephants are thought of as quite powerful and great to own because they come from the Sky Elephant...or is a descendant of him. Thats why white elephants are considered Holy down there...the other idea makes no sense, I'll reread lol.

Namaste,

Tobias

[Crystal_Raye]

I do believe that Christianity is a valid and very real religion. It isn't for me, but nevertheless. And, yes, I do believe in a real, flesh and blood, historical Jesus.

Same here.

[DarkDancer]

I do believe that Christianity is a real religion, however I do not believe that Jesus ever existed. Beyond the bible there is no documentation of him, and the bible has a difficult time keeping the facts straight.

[TYRRHENUS]

Refering to Jesus:
Beyond the bible there is no documentation of him...Hi. This is not true actually. Josephus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0913573868/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-2041515-9160709?v=glance&s=books) mentions Jesus by name and is usually considered the only independent source confirming the existence of Jesus. Seutonius also wrote of Jews following Chrestus - a latinized form of the Greek crestos. (Crestos was the name used by Marcionites for Jesus, btw.) A source I think is often overlooked.
What is strange is that Philo, a hellenized Jew and contemporary of Jesus who wrote much concerning the Jewish faith during that time, never mentions Jesus. Which is where the Flavian Hypothesis (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0974092800/qid=1097471531/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2041515-9160709?v=glance&s=books) comes in. I won't get into it out of respect for our local x-tians, you can investigate that.
Anyway, I voted that Christianity is a real religion. I know because I was born into it.

[~Macha~]

I don't think that Jesus ever claims to be God, or "the way, the truth and the life." Rather, I think Jesus was (like Buddha, Krishna, etc.) enlightened, and that he spoke only of his actions in regards to "the way, the truth and the life." I don't think he meant that he, specifically, was the "only way to Heaven, enlightenment, eternal peace, etc." The bible (esp. the NT) is really very interesting when read how I believe it was meant to be. In fact, I think it's very "Buddhist" in nature, and that, although denied by many, it also supports the idea of reincarnation or rebirth.

Sorry, I used to be Catholic and I couldn't help posting. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "

[DarkDancer]

Oh, wehen I sdaid that there was no dicumantation of him, I meant by someone who could possibly have met him, 2 of the three that you mentioned were born too late to have met him, the third (Phillio) as you said, does not mention him.....

[Sleet]

Sorry, I used to be Catholic and I couldn't help posting. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "

Me too - and there are about eight million ways to interpret that utterance of his.

[soilsigh aingeal]

Christianity is as real to christians and as real as whatever your religion is to you. There is no physical proof that one is real and one is not. It's called having faith.

[Mad Dame]

Is Christianity real? Yes. All religions are real to the folk who are of that demonination.
People in general need a source of faith, a source of hope, disipline (sp?) and a place for there soul to rest or move on. There is no right or wrong religion, none are more closer to the "truth" then others, it's all up to people's individual perceptions of the higher being/s.

There is only faith.

My perception is that there is an Ultimate, a Creator, this Ultimate has no name (not that I've found one) and all other Gods and Goddesses are creations of the faith of the poplace. These are my thoughts and I am agnostic.

[Aine of the Fae]

*snickers* since I'm a Christian I kind of have to vote Yes, don't I!

If Christianity is false, then all religions are false. Except maybe Discordia.....

Christianity can be true, and still leave room for other religions, if you don't get into the fundamentalism, which gets annoying at times.... You'd be surprised at the number of liberal Christians who don't hold to the "one true faith" or "only way to God" that fundamentalists insist on.

[Blair]

I abstained. I believe Christianity to be a valid path. I do think there might have been a Jewish philosopher named Jesus but not that he was the son of God or that he did any of the miraclous stuff the Bible claims.

[SacredWithin]

Personally, I think Christianity has yet to be tried. I think there has been some alterations to the Bible and I think that Christianity was meant to be a religion loaded with symbolism and has lots of gnosticism and mysticism in it. :hmmmmm:

[SacredWithin]

I don't think that Jesus ever claims to be God, or "the way, the truth and the life." Rather, I think Jesus was (like Buddha, Krishna, etc.) enlightened, and that he spoke only of his actions in regards to "the way, the truth and the life." I don't think he meant that he, specifically, was the "only way to Heaven, enlightenment, eternal peace, etc." The bible (esp. the NT) is really very interesting when read how I believe it was meant to be. In fact, I think it's very "Buddhist" in nature, and that, although denied by many, it also supports the idea of reincarnation or rebirth.

I think when Jesus said that he is the way, the thruth and the light, I think he meant the way he lives his life. I think he meant that, "by my example, you will find peace within yourselves, just as I have."

[SacredWithin]

I just realized where I had seen the quote about Christians. It is on Rhys signature line. hehehehe he has a post just below. It is attributed to Mahatma Ghandi. I guess that doesn't surprise me. He is the person that I most admire, but was not aware of this quote by him.

I think Gandhi always read the Bible too. We need more people like him. :)

[Amarantha]

I don't think that most of Christianity's rules were the ones that Jesus wanted others to honor and uphold. Jesus was about love and loving others no matter what. Most of Jesus' right hand men were blackhearted fools, that wanted nothing but power. How things came to be I don't know I look at as a big book of parables and some man made laws. I just think Jesus wanted to serve his god and show others compassion. Just like the rest of us.

[LadyV]

Yes, this has the potential to be a very dangerous thread indeed! Now for my answer.. I do not think that Christianity as practiced today, is anything at all of the religion practiced in biblical times. For one thing, Jesus did not want to form a new religion. Sheesh! Most folks can't even remember the fact that Jesus was Jewish, let alone not a cult leader. Christianity was not founded until after his death, hence the name. All of his teachings and parables and lessons were created to try and get Judaism back to the peaceful laws of god. Unfortunately, most people still are under the impression Jesus actually started Christianity. The Bible is the Abridged Version. There have been close to fifty versions or translations of the bible throughout history and there are actual large volumes of gospels that were omitted from the ultra-popular King James version. Essentially, as soon as someone found a disparity, which was invariably, they would excise a chapter that didn't agree with their version of Christianity. This led to the formation of God's Beatles - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - whose gospels were chosen as the definitive volumes. Do I believe in the bible? Well, though I am a generational Witch, Yes I do. It's just that with so much changing, mistranslating and outright deceiving of those that have had power to do so.....much of it's true meaning has been lost....most don't know there are three versions of the ten Commandments, that Eve was not the first female....that there are 13 books known as the Apocrypha which were also in the original King James translation but were removed at the Synod of Dordrecht in 1619, and there are between eighteen to twenty-four books mentioned in the Bible, but not included. The variation is due to possible double mentions using differing names for the same book....aaaaaanyway Christianity of today's worship, would probably make those of biblical day roll over in their graves!

[charmedkisses1]

why does it mattter what we think of christianity? why should we care? what we THINK may not be truth.....

[Shakyamuni007]

This is one of the most insulting inflamatory threads I think I've ever seen on this website! I agree with most that although I don't follow it, I do think its just as lagitimate and "real" as any other faith. However I also think that the church has mauled Jesus original teachings so much that it is no longer a religion about Jesus' teachings, but instead a religion about Jesus. I follow a Buddhist path, but consider Christ to have been a real historicle figure, and a Boddhisattva (one who has reached enlightenment, but has decided to reincarnate one last time before entering Nirvana in order to help the rest of humanity reach enlightenment). Hell, when I finally get my alter together I plan on having a picture or representation of him along with the Buddha, and Thich Nhat Hanh.

[Toby Stimpson]

Hi Shakyamuni, forgive my ignorance but who is Thich Nhat Hanh?....Just going by the name is he a Buddhist spiritual founder in Thahayana? Namaste :)

Tobias

[Marchosias]

I do believe that Christianity is a real religion, however I do not believe that Jesus ever existed.

Contradictory.

There can be no Christianity without a Christ.

Without Jesus, you essentially have Judaism.

[flar7]

Contradictory.

There can be no Christianity without a Christ.

Without Jesus, you essentially have Judaism.
hmm. worthy of discussion indeed. perhaps its own thread.
could the precepts or ideas in christianity exists without the Christ? ie. do unto others, forgive and forget, turn the other cheek. Those are ideas that differ greatly from Judaism.

[DarkDancer]

Contradictory.

There can be no Christianity without a Christ.

Without Jesus, you essentially have Judaism.

I disagree. I believe that the creators of Christianity made Jesus up, or perhaps created him from a composite of Rabbi's. I could be wrong though. But (yeah, I know it is grammatically incorrect to use a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence) anyway, when the founders of the religion created it, they created it around the figure of Jesus, I don't see that it matters whether He existed or not.

[LadyV]

If one can grasp the reality of the Bible's historical setting, then there is only one more hurdle to conqIf one can grasp the reality of the Bible's historical setting, then there is only one more hurdle to conquer. Although the term "dumbing-down" did not exist in the early 17th century, that is exactly the intent of King James when he undertook the project of translating the Bible and it was the inevitable result of that work. This infamous King of England cast a veil over the treasures in this ancient writing. The language he chose was not the common English of the day, but the obscure language of the royal court he commanded. He chose a language not only foreign to the common people, but one so simplistic that it was totally inadequate to properly render the languages it replaced. The competence of the translators was really of little importance considering the true agenda of this despotic, authoritarian and repressive monarch. He had only two goals. One was his desire to be a god-king by affirming the "divine right of kings" and the other was to eliminate the access of the common people to these works. To accomplish this end, he gave his hand picked supervisor of the project, the Bishop of London, strict dogmatic instruction and gave final approval to the book that bears his name. Had it not been what he wanted, it would never have been published. The result is a language nobody understands, numerous purposeful mistranslation and so many words added or deleted, the toll is incalculable. The fruit of his labor has held fast over four centuries. In the world of Bible-based religions, there are more denominations than books in the Bible, more sub-denominations than chapters and more pastoral schisms than verses.

uer. Although the term "dumbing-down" did not exist in the early 17th century, that is exactly the intent of King James when he undertook the project of translating the Bible and it was the inevitable result of that work. This infamous King of England cast a veil over the treasures in this ancient writing. The language he chose was not the common English of the day, but the obscure language of the royal court he commanded. He chose a language not o

The Bible is the Abridged Version. There have been close to fifty versions or translations of the bible throughout history and there are actual large volumes of gospels that were omitted from the ultra-popular King James version. Essentially, as soon as someone found a disparity, which was invariably, they would excise a chapter that didn't agree with their version of Christianity. This led to the formation of God's Beatles - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - whose gospels were chosen as the definitive volumes.

only foreign to the common people, but one so simplistic that it was totally inadequate to properly render the languages it replaced. The competence of the translators was really of little importance considering the true agenda of this despotic, authoritarian and repressive monarch. He had only two goals. One was his desire to be a god-king by affirming the "divine right of kings" and the other was to eliminate the access of the common people to these works. To accomplish this end, he gave his hand picked supervisor of the project, the Bishop of London, strict dogmatic instruction and gave final approval to the book that bears his name. Had it not been what he wanted, it would never have been published. The result is a language nobody understands, numerous purposeful mistranslations and so many words added or deleted, the toll is incalculable. The fruit of his labor has held fast over four centuries. In the world of Bible-based religions, there are more denominations than books in the Bible, more sub-denominations than chapters and more pastoral schisms than verses.
Is Christiaity true? Not the way it practiced today....it has been twisted and manipulated to fit mankind

[Infinite Grey]

I disagree. I believe that the creators of Christianity made Jesus up, or perhaps created him from a composite of Rabbi's. I could be wrong though. But (yeah, I know it is grammatically incorrect to use a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence) anyway, when the founders of the religion created it, they created it around the figure of Jesus, I don't see that it matters whether He existed or not.

I disagree, if we can believe in the paranormal and magic related instances. Isn't it conceivable that Jesus existed and is the son of a God? This doesn't mean we have to follow that particular god, but maybe there was such a man. Remember Christians weren't always arrogant bigots, when they first started out their faith was know as "the way" and were just as persecuted as any other religion. The original message was all but lost as Christians gained power, power corrupts. The original Christians had no desire for power, but the religions name has been tarnished after the Roman Empire adopted it and the atrocities for which it is none began.

Christian's refuse to believe in other religions because of the doctrines in which they must follow. Would you compromise parts of your religion to appease another? Hopefully not. I do believe Christians have committed great wrongs in the past and present, and they should be more tolerant towards other religions. They should respect other peoples choices even if they don't themselves believe in it, as should we. Forcing someone into your belief is just wrong on both sides of the argument, we should leave them to their belief and they should leave us to ours. Neither is as right or as wrong as the other.

Respect and be respected, live and let live.
_vb_

[LittleRhiannon]

Honestly? While I don't know if the original religion correct, I don't believe that the Christianity currently being practiced is correct.

I know my religion is correct. I also know that it's not the only one. If one religion says that it IS the only one, then that would seem to me to be incorrect, and for Christianity, that concept seems to be one of the more important ones.

*shrugs*

I don't mean to be offensive, but thats what I believe.

[equinox2]

Yeah, definitely a thread with a lot of potential for bashing. As others have mentioned, the questions must be more specific to be able to answer in a meaningful way.

Here are some specific questions I can answer for me:

Do I think a historical Jesus really existed?

Yes. I’m about 80% sure of that. Dark Dancer said:


Beyond the bible there is no documentation of him, and the bible has a difficult time keeping the facts straight.

And a short discussion ensued about Josephus, Pilo, and others. DD is right that there is no certain record of him, but that is also true for most historical figures that long ago. DD is also right about the Bible having a hard time keeping it's story straight (even after editing). DD is also right that Christianity could have sprung up without Jesus.

However, Josephus’s work is good evidence for a real Jesus, after you take out the exaggerations probably added by Christian scribes. Plus there are other reasons for me to think that Jesus did exist. So if I had to guess, I’d say 80% yes he existed, 20% Jesus didn’t exist. We could spend a lot of time on that (and I have on other threads).

Which Doctrines of modern Christianity do I think are factually correct?
Here are some examples:

Was Jesus born of a Virgin? I’d guess no.

Did Jesus’s dead body return to life and walk around (and through walls, Jn 20:19)? I’d guess no.

Did many dead bodies return to life and walk around Jerusalem during an earthquake when Jesus died? I’d guess no.

Did the Jews pressure the Romans into killing Jesus even though the Romans didn’t want to? I’d guess no.

Was Jesus God’s only son – god himself, unlike any other humans? I’d guess no.

Is it a good thing to treat one’s neighbor as oneself? I’d guess yes.

Did Jesus really quote Lev 19 “treat one’s neighbor as oneself”? I’d guess yes.

Was the early church a continuation of Jesus’ views? I’d guess no.

Did Jesus himself claim to be God? I’d guess no. (though the gospel of John repeats over and over that he did, I see the GoJ as a pious fiction).

Did any disciple write any of the books of the Bible? I’d guess no.

Did any of the writers of the books of the Bible actually even see Jesus while he was alive? I’d guess no.

Was Jesus a perfect role model, with only good teachings? I’d guess no – some of his teachings that appear to be authentic are harmful, even though so many people (especially, ironically, Pagans) want to sugar coat him.

Is Christianity as valid a religion as most other religions? I’d guess yes.

Is being Christian the only way to avoid writhing in everlasting torment in a place reserved for all non-Christians? (This is perhaps the most unanimous doctrine of Christianity). I'd guess no.

Etc. We can discuss any of these if we want – I’d suggest a new thread in “Theology”, but first look for old threads – there probably was one on that subject.



Winged tigerchild wrote:

I do not think that the bible was meant to be interpreted literally, as there are many things in contradiction to each other when done so. I.E. Paul's speech on women in the church versus Jesus. If we read the bible according to it's historical, cultural and scriptural context, it makes sense and does not contradict itself.

I disagree, some things do appear to be very contradictory, even (especially!) when read in their historical context. I’ve found a better way to examine the contradictions is to look at the bias of each writer, and recognize that the different books were written by different people to describe different religions.

When allowed to speak for themselves, each book doesn’t usually contradict itself, though it may contradict other books we call part of the “bible”. Remember that these different books weren’t gathered up into one volume for hundreds of years after they were written, the authors certainly didn’t write them as part of “the bible”, but rather as their view.


I don't think that Jesus ever claims to be God, or "the way, the truth and the life."

I think he does. The part where he does is quoted earlier. Sleet mentions that one could interpret it differently, but I think that takes a lot of mental gymnastics. More importantly, it fits with what the Gospel of John says over and over – elevating Jesus beyond mere mortals. In fact, that seems to be the GoJ’s main point.


Ladyleo wrote:

i'm not going to say much further because i'm not going to bash christianity, or be accused of it.

OK, I won’t accuse you of Christianity!

(sorry, I just couldn’t resist the joke about the pronoun reference!) :smile:

Love and light-

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Yes, it is. Even Scott Cunningham said that Christianity was a perfectly valid religion. Where the legions of Cunningham clones get the idea that Christianity is the cause of all the world's ills escapes me. But I digress.
A Christian, in my view, is a person who follows the teachings of one Jesus Christ, commobly believed to be the S n of God, although Jesus himself didn't really say so, preferring to call himself the Son of Man. I think that Jesus had a lot of great things to say - Jesus is just all right with me! I don't think he'd be very happy to see what that bastard 'saint' Paul did to his teachings, but he couldn't really do anything about it, what with being dead and all. And in Paul's defence, paul was only doing what he had to do to ensure that the Church survived. The very conservative Roman world in which Christianity developed came down hard on the new message of Jesus, and Paul changed things so that the infant Church wouldn't be wiped out. I don't agree with most of what he did, but it's too late to do anything about it now.
A very good, and very Christian, friend of mine once told me that I was one of the most Christian and Chist-like people he knew, and I took it as a great compliment. He told me this after he knew I was a Wiccan.
I believe that there was someone named Jesus , but I'm unsure as to whether or not all the stories connected to him are real or not. I was not there, so I cannot say. I believe that Jesus was what the Hindus call an Avator, a being filled with divine spirit. He doesn't matter to me as much as my own constantly changing Lord and Lady, but he's up there somewhere.
Another very good friend told me that she believes in God, and described him as an old man sitting up in Heaven in a rocking chair, loving everyone and having a good laugh at whatever it is we're up to.
Um, yes. I'm going round in circles here. Suffice it t say that Christianity is a true religion. Bashing it for the sake of bashing is dishonourable and low. Those why cater to it are not nice people.

[Amethyst Rose]

Ah crap! I voted wrong... I meant to say that Christianity is real...but I put not real by accident.

[Tajemnica]

I don't see how so many pagans can say that Christianity is truly, 100% "real" and mean it, because if they did, they would be Christians. Christianity, as I understand it, claims to be the ONLY true way to God, that you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and also that polytheism is a major no-no (first of the 10 commandments). I'd *like* to be able to say that all religions are true, but since a number of them have "this is THE true religion" as one of their tenets, I cannot honestly say that I think that all of them are entirely true.

[Sith]

I believe that it's real and there was a real life Jesus eons ago. As far as following a belief system that surrounds him, eh, that's kind of a grey area for me.
Actually, I heard there was evidence that he really existed. At any rate, Jesus was a messenger. He told us what people needed to hear and he was killed for it. Much later, Christ's message is used for anything that can support some weird political idea. I believe that the only true Christians in history were Jesus and his posse. After that, his message was corrupted for other ends. Thats one reason why I left.

[Amethyst Rose]

I don't see how so many pagans can say that Christianity is truly, 100% "real" and mean it, because if they did, they would be Christians. Christianity, as I understand it, claims to be the ONLY true way to God, that you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and also that polytheism is a major no-no (first of the 10 commandments). I'd *like* to be able to say that all religions are true, but since a number of them have "this is THE true religion" as one of their tenets, I cannot honestly say that I think that all of them are entirely true.


That depends on your definition of "real". Of course it's a real religion. Do I believe with it's tennents? Not all of them, but that doesn't make it any less real. Every religion is valid in it's own right. I don't care if you're a member of the Church of BOB, if it's valid to you, it's valid.

[Pandoras]

I don't see how so many pagans can say that Christianity is truly, 100% "real" and mean it, because if they did, they would be Christians. Christianity, as I understand it, claims to be the ONLY true way to God, that you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and also that polytheism is a major no-no (first of the 10 commandments). I'd *like* to be able to say that all religions are true, but since a number of them have "this is THE true religion" as one of their tenets, I cannot honestly say that I think that all of them are entirely true.

I can't speak for other Pagans, but I will say that I do believe that Christianity is a real and valid religion (especially for the millions of people who practice it). But for me, as a Pagan, I view Christianity as only one of many real and valid religions. I certainly didn't say anything in my previous post about Christianity being the one and only true religion. I realize that's what many Christians believe, but that's their problem. I'm Pagan through and through; I don't worry about Christian doctrine.

[AuroraSilvermist]

All religions are real; anything you have faith in is real...at least to you. Religion is a way of making deity, something that is beyond human understanding, accessible. How we choose to see deity is an individual thing, but no belief system is any less valid than another.

[Marchosias]

hmm. worthy of discussion indeed. perhaps its own thread.
could the precepts or ideas in christianity exists without the Christ? ie. do unto others, forgive and forget, turn the other cheek. Those are ideas that differ greatly from Judaism.

The ideas and precepts of Christianity, without Christ, give you two things: The Old Testament and a philosphy.

Without the philosophy, you essentially have Judaism, give or take.

Besides, with no "Christ", how can there be a "Christ"ianity?

[DarkDancer]

I disagree, if we can believe in the paranormal and magic related instances. Isn't it conceivable that Jesus existed and is the son of a God? This doesn't mean we have to follow that particular god, but maybe there was such a man. Remember Christians weren't always arrogant bigots, when they first started out their faith was know as "the way" and were just as persecuted as any other religion. The original message was all but lost as Christians gained power, power corrupts. The original Christians had no desire for power, but the religions name has been tarnished after the Roman Empire adopted it and the atrocities for which it is none began.



Christian's refuse to believe in other religions because of the doctrines in which they must follow. Would you compromise parts of your religion to appease another? Hopefully not. I do believe Christians have committed great wrongs in the past and present, and they should be more tolerant towards other religions. They should respect other peoples choices even if they don't themselves believe in it, as should we. Forcing someone into your belief is just wrong on both sides of the argument, we should leave them to their belief and they should leave us to ours. Neither is as right or as wrong as the other.

Oh, I'll admit, maybe there was, I just don't think so. It has nothing to do with miracles and wonders, so much as it seems that there would be at least a mention of such a one as Jesus from one of his contemporaries.

Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just said what I believe and why. As always, you are all free to believe what you like.... _travolta_

[Infinite Grey]

Oh, I'll admit, maybe there was, I just don't think so. It has nothing to do with miracles and wonders, so much as it seems that there would be at least a mention of such a one as Jesus from one of his contemporaries.

Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just said what I believe and why. As always, you are all free to believe what you like.... _travolta_

That is cool, just don't be so quick to dimiss anothers belief. :awilly:

[Rudas Starblaze]

drop it already. everyone has there own beliefs, leave it at that, if you think your better then some one else,,,,,, wake up, your not...............

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

[WynterWynd]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?
Do I believe Christanity is a religion?

Yes

Do I believe there was a person named Jesus?

Yes

My add on question to this poll is.........

Do I believe the things written in the bible?:hmmmmm:

No

[Faerin]

Do I believe Christanity is a religion?

Yes

Do I believe there was a person named Jesus?

Yes

My add on question to this poll is.........

Do I believe the things written in the bible?:hmmmmm:

No

I feel the same way. The Bible is claimed to be inspired by the Divine, but yet it has so many contradictions....and where the heck do they mention anything about dinosaurs?

Flaws in the Bible, or not, doesn't matter to me. If Christians want to believe in what they do, I think it's awesome. Buddhists? great! Jewish? wonderful! It all leads to a higher power which I think is more important than proving or disproving anyone's faith. Maybe historical artifacts don't all add up to explain exactly what is true or not, but I think the higher powers are understanding if we don't all agree. As long as we believe.

[WynterWynd]

I feel the same way. The Bible is claimed to be inspired by the Divine, but yet it has so many contradictions....and where the heck do they mention anything about dinosaurs? .........


I've had that same argument with many people......and never get a straight answer about the dinosaurs.:hmmmmm:

[Faerwolf]

Yes, i think Christianity is a real religion, whatever a "real" religion is, Yes, i beleive there was a man named Jesus, I don't choose to worship as a Christian, I don't beleive everything in the Bible is true, i think it is over translated for political conquest. It does make some good points though, that i cannot credit to the Bible originaly, but rooted from a much older beleif system.

[Rudas Starblaze]

I've had that same argument with many people......and never get a straight answer about the dinosaurs.:hmmmmm:



dragons and dinasaurs are the same thing, anyone with common since could have figured that out by now, for goodness sakes we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,,, i believe one of the things we are supposed to live by is using our minds. for the millionth time will everyone just check out the website, answeres in genisis. org already. i know most of you may be scared to, but you should atleast be willing to learn that which you dont know.

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

[WynterWynd]

I don't know what makes you think can judge someones common sense by one post, but you cannot.
And I know that most of us around here are more than willing to go to website thats been suggested to look into something, but even that isn't going to change the minds of most people.
And to say that most of us are scared to go to a website is not only childish, but rude.

G'Day!

[Faerin]

dragons and dinasaurs are the same thing, anyone with common since could have figured that out by now, for goodness sakes we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,,, i believe one of the things we are supposed to live by is using our minds. for the millionth time will everyone just check out the website, answeres in genisis. org already. i know most of you may be scared to, but you should atleast be willing to learn that which you dont know.

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

Please quote a verse from the Bible that says they are the same, or tell me so I can go find it myself. Since you've answered this question a million times you should probably know it by heart, right?

I could comment on the rest of your post but....well lets just leave it at that.

[mcc]

This poll is very oddly worded...

No! Not real! There is no such thing as Christianity! The "Catholic Church" is just a mass hallucination! Or maybe swamp gas!

^_^

[Aine of the Fae]

dragons and dinasaurs are the same thing, anyone with common since could have figured that out by now, for goodness sakes we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,,, i believe one of the things we are supposed to live by is using our minds. for the millionth time will everyone just check out the website, answeres in genisis. org already. i know most of you may be scared to, but you should atleast be willing to learn that which you dont know.

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

Answers in Genesis is a far-right wing, mega-fundamentalist, conservative Christian ministry aimed at "proving" that Genesis is literal. And they use some very.... un-Christian tactics to do so. Most of their science is quack, pseudo-science, twisting the information they want to "prove" their points, and just ignoring everything else. If it doesn't fit into their neat little world-view it's just a trick of the devil, no other explanation necessary.

They turn God into a liar. Consider this:

If the Earth was created in a literal 6 days (He could do it...) that happened less than ten thousand years ago, why is there SOLID evidence of societies, people, plants and animals existing long before that? And I'm not talking about information as shaky as carbon-dating, I'm talking about things as consistent and reliable as tree-rings. That's right dear children, tree rings. Each year a tree develops a new growth ring. Scientists can tell the history of the tree based on the rings. But more than that, they can see the history of the environment in which that tree lived. Unusually harsh, drought-stricken years would produce thinner rings, warmer, wetter years would produce thicker rings. Diseases would produce variation in the rings as well, as would infestations of insects.

There are trees that can be dated back THOUSANDS of years, earlier than the supposed creation of the Earth 6000 years ago. Now, why would God produce false histories in these trees? He COULD create the Earth instantaneously, or in six days, or however He wanted to, but the evidence shows that he didn't, and Answers in Genesis ignores that evidence, or tries to reinterpret that evidence to fit their agenda.

And they do have an agenda and try to use science for that. They try to make the science fit their agenda instead of letting the science speak for itself.

There is NO evidence that the dragons described in the Bible are dinosaurs, although it is a plausible theory. But to say that anyone with common sense would have figured it out by now is rude and condescending. Anyone with common sense would know we don't have all the answers.

And I must say that if you believe what AIG spews then you probably shouldn't be hanging out with the heathens, they might pollute your mind and send demons after you.....

[Morr]

um ive only been reading the last few threads but,,

genisis is an acient sumerian creation story that was modified a bit by the bible authors.

which would make sense since Y-H-V-H was one God in the Pantheon of Sumerian Gods, and that creation story may have been attributed to him.

[Shanti]

Who would I be to judge what is real? Real is 'real' to the one that believes it!

[Keroberos]

real is simply made by belief whatever people believe is real to them and that's all that matters. No one should ever be forced to believe something they're not comfortable with. so of course Christianity is valid and anyone who thinks differently is rude and is just as bad as those right wing Christians who say we're not valid (and going to hell or whatever). The point it no one (especially us since we tout understanding and openmindedness) should be judgemental about another's religion.

[ValiantKnight]

It's a real religon for those who belive in it, For me I tried it for a while didn't like the results. But I'm am not one to say that no one shouldn't belive in it, nor to tell people to follow in what I belive. Thats seems to be the thing around my neck of the woods, to many door to door religous pushers!!!!

[WingedTigerChild]

Do what my Grandpa does and answer the door in the nude! lol :heybaby:

[Aine of the Fae]

Do what my Grandpa does and answer the door in the nude! lol :heybaby:

Or as my friends dad used to do, scream "Nikki, get away from that TV, you know we only worship Satan on Fridays!"

Sends them running everytime :D

Personally, I'm all for evangelism, being a Christian and all :D But I think some people take it too far. It's one thing to say "This is what I believe, and this is how it's changed me life" and then leave it open for discussion, it's an entirely different thing to say "You have to believe this or else..." and then keep pushing it.

Continuous pushing is rude, and completely un-Biblical, something that should be pointed out to people who insist on the literal interpretations of the Bible (but notice it's only what THEY want that's literal, and things such as "Give everything away...." aren't really meant to be literal...... yeah... ok....) Jesus said to spread the Good News, but if people didn't want to listen, walk away.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Please quote a verse from the Bible that says they are the same, or tell me so I can go find it myself. Since you've answered this question a million times you should probably know it by heart, right?

I could comment on the rest of your post but....well lets just leave it at that.


the word "dinosaur" is a 20th century word, everyone should know that by know. i was prepared for this kind of reply!!!!! for starters, you dont even need biblicle referance for this. lets think about this for moment, what are dragons? what are dinosaurs? they are large, sometimes scaled, sometimes not, creatures. some fly, some travel by land, some travel by water (ocean, seas, lakes, ect.). now, as for the word dinosaur, if we were capable of time travel, and went back, oh lets say about about 500+ years (not thats a recent enough number) and we were to see what we call a dinosaur, and we were accompanied by a local of that time, if we said "hey thats a dinosaur" there reply would be "whats a dinosaur??? thats a dragon!!!!" because the word dinosaur, like i said, is a 20th century word.
now, we say dinosaurs are extint, so why are there still crocodiles and aligators? they are the same thing. why are there reports of "Nessy"?, why are there reports of other sea going creatures that we have no idea exsist? now in the bible, it speaks of the great flood. we have all heard the story, there are others like it in every culture around the world. ok, before i get started on the great flood, let me enlighten you on some analogies in a different term.
a diamond,,,, ok it takes nature how long to produce these beautiful gems? well, a man can make a diamond faster and better then nature can, its proven, what do you think people use for glass cutting, they arent going to pay a fortune for a natural diamond. well, everyone knows it takes a substancial amout of pressure on a piece of coal to make a diamond. now, back to the great flood, these diamonds are found where???? caves. ok so caves go deep under ground, now anyone who has been in a cave knows the amount of gravity, or pressure that is present. now add more weight then you can imagine ontop of that...... a diamond is made!!!!! ask yourself why we cant watch a cave make a diamond under normal circumstances. dont even think because it takes millions of years.

ok, another thing about the pressure of the great flood. petrification. add the minerals from the soil that was displaced. what happens to minerals when met with an organic material under alot of pressure,,,, it turns to "stone" in other words, petrification. so we take all the creatures that were not spared by the ark, cover them with sediment (minerals), add tons and tons of pressure, what happens????? fossils.

so what about the sea going creatures you ask??? well, think of it like turning a teen loose in six flags!!!! "gee, no wonder there are still the unknown creatures of the sea???" we know of a few as in the crocs and gators.
"well, science says dinosaurs died out millions of years ago" well,,,,, what can i say possible say to that??? science is nothing but theory, they admit that themselves, like a myth so to speak, scientist never give a straight answere, they just give options or ideas, carbon dating is wrong they found out.
in the bible, they speak of the firey flying serpant (dragon of fairyrale stories). most believe that they never exsisted,,, but what of the beatle in south america that "spits fire" as a self defense mechanism???? (its actually acid but still has the same effect), i will have to contact A I G for a more descriptive explaination on the firey flying sepant.

but yes if you have read the bible they do speak of the dragons and since the word dinosaur wasnt even thought of 2000+ years ago why would there be such a thing to the authors of the bible?
just remember the science we are taught in schools about evolution and dinosaurs was a mad mans idea over 200 years ago, but now we take it as basic knowledge,,,, GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,, we should know the truth that is handed down through history, not what some freak who thinks there is no such thing as God, (the goddess and god) and the other dieties.

there is so much more i wanted to add but my goodness this was long enough!!!!

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

[Rudas Starblaze]

Answers in Genesis is a far-right wing, mega-fundamentalist, conservative Christian ministry aimed at "proving" that Genesis is literal. And they use some very.... un-Christian tactics to do so. Most of their science is quack, pseudo-science, twisting the information they want to "prove" their points, and just ignoring everything else. If it doesn't fit into their neat little world-view it's just a trick of the devil, no other explanation necessary.

They turn God into a liar. Consider this:

If the Earth was created in a literal 6 days (He could do it...) that happened less than ten thousand years ago, why is there SOLID evidence of societies, people, plants and animals existing long before that? And I'm not talking about information as shaky as carbon-dating, I'm talking about things as consistent and reliable as tree-rings. That's right dear children, tree rings. Each year a tree develops a new growth ring. Scientists can tell the history of the tree based on the rings. But more than that, they can see the history of the environment in which that tree lived. Unusually harsh, drought-stricken years would produce thinner rings, warmer, wetter years would produce thicker rings. Diseases would produce variation in the rings as well, as would infestations of insects.

There are trees that can be dated back THOUSANDS of years, earlier than the supposed creation of the Earth 6000 years ago. Now, why would God produce false histories in these trees? He COULD create the Earth instantaneously, or in six days, or however He wanted to, but the evidence shows that he didn't, and Answers in Genesis ignores that evidence, or tries to reinterpret that evidence to fit their agenda.

And they do have an agenda and try to use science for that. They try to make the science fit their agenda instead of letting the science speak for itself.

There is NO evidence that the dragons described in the Bible are dinosaurs, although it is a plausible theory. But to say that anyone with common sense would have figured it out by now is rude and condescending. Anyone with common sense would know we don't have all the answers.

And I must say that if you believe what AIG spews then you probably shouldn't be hanging out with the heathens, they might pollute your mind and send demons after you.....

well, i was impressed by you at one time. i dont hang on everything AIG says. but like my previous post, the word "dinosaur" is a 20th century word,,, why dont you prove me wrong???? show me some historical facts about the word "dinosaur". and last time i checked the oldest tree was only a few thousand years old, not 6 to 10 thousand years old as the eath has been estimated due to scientific scew ups.

if you believe in science,,,

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

[Aine of the Fae]

That's the second time you've said "we are witches....." You do realize that the Bible is from the Judeo-Christian tradition right? And that anyone who isn't a part of that tradition isn't going to rely on it? Even some of those from that tradition have a hard time relying on it as completely accurate. It contradicts science, which isn't just thrown together out of the minds of men. It's not science unless it can be demonstrated again and again to be true. The Bible contradicts history, and it contradicts itself. There is evidence of multiple writers, just take a look at the book of Job and you have evidence of at least two writers at two very different times, and possibly even three writers. Many of the stories in the OT are derived from similar stories in other cultures. Let's look at Job again. Only one name in that book is of Hebrew origin, that of Elihu, and that is the section of the book that has the most drastic contrast to the rest! The other names seem to have a Babylonian origin and the story itself has a great deal of similarity to other Babylonian stories of the same time period.

The 'dragons' mentioned in the Bible are often representative of concepts, such as the concept of evil. The only two creatures that might possibly resemble dinosaurs are the leviathin and the behemoth, neither of which are described as a dragon.

Now as for the trees. There are bristlecone pine trees that are still living that are over 4000 years old, there are some creosote bushes in the Mojave Desert that may be as old as 7000 years, calling into serious question AIG's accepted age of the Earth at 6000 years. If the Earth is only 6000 years old, how can a bush be 7000 years old?

Now look at this site:

http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm

It lists the maximum known ages of trees. Consider this hypothetical situation:

Archaeologist are excavating a village that has been buried for 3000 years. That's only 1000 years before Christ, and a time that is generally accepted that people were around and quite happily using and abusing their God-given free will. In this village is found a tree, preserved as well. Let's say that the village was buried by a natural disaster such as a flood or volcano. Now, that tree, using tree-ring aging, is said to be 4000 years old. Quite possible (remember that site I showed you). That puts the tree at over 7000 years old. 1000 years before the supposed creation of the Earth.

Now if the Biblical accounts are literal, then how did that tree exist for 1000 years before the Earth? Hmmm? It couldn't! But if that's the case, then why does the evidence show that it did? Now of course that's a hypothetical situation.

Here's a real one:

http://www.dpiwe.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/BHAN-5494LA?open

Look at the listing for the Huon Pine. That's a grove of trees in Tasmania. What's more important is that they are actually trees, it's more like tree, in the singular. Every single one is genetically identical, and they are ALL male, which means there isn't a chance of reproduction. The branches became so weighed down by snow that they touched the ground and the brances developed roots, giving the appearance of individual trees! Now, the age of that "grove" is estimated to be 10,000 years old! So how can a grove of trees exist 4,000 years before the Earth did?

Young-Earth Creationism makes God a liar. Because if it's true the He placed false evidence of an ancient Earth.

Now as for your linguistic argument about dinosaurs and dragons in the Bible. Nope, the word dinosaur didn't exist in until recent history. But the word dragon doesn't ever appear in the Bible. In the Old Testament it's the word:

H8577
תּנּים תּנּין
tannîyn tannîym
tan-neen', tan-neem'
(The second form used in Eze_29:3); intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, that is, sea serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

Still no proof that it's dinosaurs. I said that it's a plausible explanation, but from the context of the passages, it's unlikely, and given the current findings of science, it's even more unlikely. But from looking at the definition of that word, it could be a whale, or even an elephant! An elephant is a large land monster, especially to someone who may never have seen one before.

I'm a Christian, I have great faith in God, and recent trials in my life have made that faith grow even stronger.

But I am not a Biblical literalist, nor do I feel the need to make science fit a limited world-view in order to preserve my faith. My faith isn't in a book, it's in God.

Now, I'm going to try to be as nice as possible in saying this, but if it comes across as elsewise oh well.

If you believe in a literal creation account in the Bible, if you believe that Genesis is to be used as a science textbook, and insist on spewing the garbage that groups like AIG feed you, then you can't call yourself a witch. Why? Because that very same book that you are touting as undeniable fact says that you can't. In fact it says that we should kill you and anyone like you. If you say that one part is literal without examining other evidence, then you can't pick and choose the rest.

If you are going to pick and choose, have at it. I do. But don't try to insist that your views are the only correct way, and that your interpretation is the only correct one. Until I got sick, I was studying the Bible, intensely. I'm attending Bible college for crying out loud! You have to take every passage in context, and you HAVE to examine the culture in which it was written. YECers ignore that, completely. And all the "facts" that you come in spouting, all the arguments that "the word dinosaur didn't exist then...." just make you look like a Ken Ham clone/wannabe.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Aine, i couldnt help but laugh. those are my beliefs before i even heard of AIG. i even said "the authors of the bible" in my previous post. so you cant treat me like i didnt know that already. and one other thing,,,,,,, Ken Ham is my brothers father-in-law,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you dont even want to know what they think of me.......... EVIL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cause i have long hair and have my own beliefs in christianity thats not like everyone elses. fortunatly my brother has been able to sway some of there veiws. my brother just started working there about 2 years ago, before that, i never heard of them. you know, as i have read in books about witchcraft and wiccas, the verse is actual translations is "thou shall not suffer a prisoner to live" not thou shall not suffer a witch to live like its written in the queen jimmy version. so if i am not a witch, then what am i???? it seems to me that i can do things you all can do and some others that you cant. please enlighten me.

[serenarian]

I believe Christianity is a real, true and established religion. It just isn't the one I choose to practise. I believe all belief systems are equally valid.

[Tullip Troll]

Like all things it's a little bit of truth in a field of lies...what makes it real is your relationship with the divine whomever that may be...

MheraPai

[Rudas Starblaze]

Like all things it's a little bit of truth in a field of lies...what makes it real is your relationship with the divine whomever that may be...

MheraPai


you made me smile!!!!!!! thanx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in light, love, and wisdom
Rudas Starblaze

[Faerin]

the word "dinosaur" is a 20th century word, everyone should know that by know. i was prepared for this kind of reply!!!!! for starters, you dont even need biblicle referance for this. lets think about this for moment, what are dragons? what are dinosaurs? they are large, sometimes scaled, sometimes not, creatures. some fly, some travel by land, some travel by water (ocean, seas, lakes, ect.). now, as for the word dinosaur, if we were capable of time travel, and went back, oh lets say about about 500+ years (not thats a recent enough number) and we were to see what we call a dinosaur, and we were accompanied by a local of that time, if we said "hey thats a dinosaur" there reply would be "whats a dinosaur??? thats a dragon!!!!" because the word dinosaur, like i said, is a 20th century word.
now, we say dinosaurs are extint, so why are there still crocodiles and aligators? they are the same thing. why are there reports of "Nessy"?, why are there reports of other sea going creatures that we have no idea exsist? now in the bible, it speaks of the great flood. we have all heard the story, there are others like it in every culture around the world. ok, before i get started on the great flood, let me enlighten you on some analogies in a different term.
a diamond,,,, ok it takes nature how long to produce these beautiful gems? well, a man can make a diamond faster and better then nature can, its proven, what do you think people use for glass cutting, they arent going to pay a fortune for a natural diamond. well, everyone knows it takes a substancial amout of pressure on a piece of coal to make a diamond. now, back to the great flood, these diamonds are found where???? caves. ok so caves go deep under ground, now anyone who has been in a cave knows the amount of gravity, or pressure that is present. now add more weight then you can imagine ontop of that...... a diamond is made!!!!! ask yourself why we cant watch a cave make a diamond under normal circumstances. dont even think because it takes millions of years.

ok, another thing about the pressure of the great flood. petrification. add the minerals from the soil that was displaced. what happens to minerals when met with an organic material under alot of pressure,,,, it turns to "stone" in other words, petrification. so we take all the creatures that were not spared by the ark, cover them with sediment (minerals), add tons and tons of pressure, what happens????? fossils.

so what about the sea going creatures you ask??? well, think of it like turning a teen loose in six flags!!!! "gee, no wonder there are still the unknown creatures of the sea???" we know of a few as in the crocs and gators.
"well, science says dinosaurs died out millions of years ago" well,,,,, what can i say possible say to that??? science is nothing but theory, they admit that themselves, like a myth so to speak, scientist never give a straight answere, they just give options or ideas, carbon dating is wrong they found out.
in the bible, they speak of the firey flying serpant (dragon of fairyrale stories). most believe that they never exsisted,,, but what of the beatle in south america that "spits fire" as a self defense mechanism???? (its actually acid but still has the same effect), i will have to contact A I G for a more descriptive explaination on the firey flying sepant.

but yes if you have read the bible they do speak of the dragons and since the word dinosaur wasnt even thought of 2000+ years ago why would there be such a thing to the authors of the bible?
just remember the science we are taught in schools about evolution and dinosaurs was a mad mans idea over 200 years ago, but now we take it as basic knowledge,,,, GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,, we should know the truth that is handed down through history, not what some freak who thinks there is no such thing as God, (the goddess and god) and the other dieties.

there is so much more i wanted to add but my goodness this was long enough!!!!

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

First of all, your snotty little retort is unnecessary. Second of all, you are spouting information that I already know. Third, you never answered my question. I asked for a verse in the Bible which you failed to provide.

You throw out all this information and analogies and claim to "enlighten me"...when all you're doing is trying to prove that dragons and dinosaurs are one in the same. You try to use science to explain an assumption, well it doesn't work with me.

[dr_zeus440]

well, i was impressed by you at one time. i dont hang on everything AIG says. but like my previous post, the word "dinosaur" is a 20th century word,,, why dont you prove me wrong???? show me some historical facts about the word "dinosaur". and last time i checked the oldest tree was only a few thousand years old, not 6 to 10 thousand years old as the eath has been estimated due to scientific scew ups.

if you believe in science,,,

in light, love, and wisdom,
Rudas Starblaze

EHHHHHHH, WRONG, no-one has to prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself right, burden of proof. besides, the origins of the word "dinosaur" are about as relevant to this debate as the origins of the word "disney".

and SECONDLY (and this little gem comes direct to you all from the 'A' book of the World Book Encyclopaedia)


Australia, History of. The first people in Australia were Aborigines who arrived <cough> at least 50,000 years ago.

[Rudas Starblaze]

First of all, your snotty little retort is unnecessary. Second of all, you are spouting information that I already know. Third, you never answered my question. I asked for a verse in the Bible which you failed to provide.

You throw out all this information and analogies and claim to "enlighten me"...when all you're doing is trying to prove that dragons and dinosaurs are one in the same. You try to use science to explain an assumption, well it doesn't work with me.


Job 41, vrs 1-34

read it, its exactly how fairytale dragons are described is it not? and if i have nothing to do with science, why do you say i do? can we all except the fact we all have our own beliefs and get over it. i never once said that you and everyone had to beleive what i do, i was just throwing out my opinions just as everyone has. im sorry if i made it sound like an attack :loveydove

[Faerin]

Job 41, vrs 1-34

read it, its exactly how fairytale dragons are described is it not? and if i have nothing to do with science, why do you say i do? can we all except the fact we all have our own beliefs and get over it. i never once said that you and everyone had to beleive what i do, i was just throwing out my opinions just as everyone has. im sorry if i made it sound like an attack :loveydove

thanks for the verse, I'll be sure to check it out today sometime. I don't get what you mean by "if I have nothing to do with science, why do you say I do?" That statement doesn't make sense to me. I was just trying to explain that I wanted a verse in the Bible (which pertained to the original question), and not a 6th grade science refresher.

You implied that I (as well as everyone else) should have the same beliefs you do:

dragons and dinasaurs are the same thing, anyone with common since could have figured that out by now, for goodness sakes we are witches, wiccas, and pagans,,,,,,
not only did you imply that we should believe the same things you do, but you insulted me that I would question it.

I accept your apology about feeling attacked, but I don't like being insulted on a discussion thread, especially when you say that it's ok for everyone to have their beliefs, yet you ridicule those who express them.

[flar7]

The ideas and precepts of Christianity, without Christ, give you two things: The Old Testament and a philosphy.

Without the philosophy, you essentially have Judaism, give or take.

Besides, with no "Christ", how can there be a "Christ"ianity?
hehe.
Judaism is not "forgive and forget." Its, "an eye for an eye."

the precepts are very different. more like an educational book.
chapter 1. how to live and not die of your own crap and dumbness
chapter 2. (Christianity) how to love and treat each other as you should have known by common sense.

hehehe, me an my friends love talking about the "old days" and God's chosen back then. S-M-A-R-T... yep. smart. :D

[audi]

i converted from christianity to wicca.
i didnt believe in jesus. or much of anything else they had to say for that matter, lol. wicca is much better for me. im am happy here. it feels more like home.
*hugs*

[Aine of the Fae]

Job 41, vrs 1-34

read it, its exactly how fairytale dragons are described is it not? and if i have nothing to do with science, why do you say i do? can we all except the fact we all have our own beliefs and get over it. i never once said that you and everyone had to beleive what i do, i was just throwing out my opinions just as everyone has. im sorry if i made it sound like an attack :loveydove

The book of Job is of extremely questionable origin, appearing to have been written by at least two, possibly three different people. All of the names, with the exception of Elihu, are not of Jewish origin, and the style of writing is very similar to Babylonian writings of the same time periods.

That particular passage seems to be describing a crocodile more than a 'fairytale dragon' But dragon isn't even used there. Instead it's leviathin:

H3882
לויתן
livyâthân
liv-yaw-thawn'
From H3867; a wreathed animal, that is, a serpent (especially the crocodile or some other large sea monster); figuratively the constellation of the dragon; also as a symbol of Babylon: - leviathan, mourning.


You can't prove one way or another that any animal described in the Bible is a dinosaur. Just as you can't prove one way or another that there is a God. It's a matter of belief, and if there is one thing I've learned in life is that my beliefs are unconventional and so I've learned to live with other people's beliefs.

[Rudas Starblaze]

The book of Job is of extremely questionable origin, appearing to have been written by at least two, possibly three different people. All of the names, with the exception of Elihu, are not of Jewish origin, and the style of writing is very similar to Babylonian writings of the same time periods.

That particular passage seems to be describing a crocodile more than a 'fairytale dragon' But dragon isn't even used there. Instead it's leviathin:

H3882
לויתן
livyâthân
liv-yaw-thawn'
From H3867; a wreathed animal, that is, a serpent (especially the crocodile or some other large sea monster); figuratively the constellation of the dragon; also as a symbol of Babylon: - leviathan, mourning.


You can't prove one way or another that any animal described in the Bible is a dinosaur. Just as you can't prove one way or another that there is a God. It's a matter of belief, and if there is one thing I've learned in life is that my beliefs are unconventional and so I've learned to live with other people's beliefs.


although i dont agree with you (yet i do as for saying there is no way to prove one way or the other that any animal ect.) like we discussed, its al in how one believes.. i respect you now more then the first time i heard of you. and to everyone else, im sorry, next time i will try to make my posts sound not so forceful, ok.

[Earth Walker]

I think it is false.

I found this book to be very interesting.

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable
of christ has been for us."
-- Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Info at: http://www.thebiblefraud.com
joshuabooks@bigpond.com

Make your own judgements. :smoke:

[Aine of the Fae]

I think it is false.

I found this book to be very interesting.

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable
of christ has been for us."
-- Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Info at: http://www.thebiblefraud.com
joshuabooks@bigpond.com

Make your own judgements. :smoke:

By that criteria, every religion is false.

[Earth Walker]

[Quote]
By that criteria, every religion is false.

Yes, you are right, every religion is false.
People have trouble remembering and/or
understanding that religion is just that...religion.

First Nations Spirituality is exactly that...Spirituality --- not religion.
The Spirituality of our respective European tribal ancestors was exactly
that...Spirituality --- not religion.

Spirituality is not religion, religion is not Spirituality.

[flar7]

Spirituality is not religion, religion is not Spirituality.
for you. but not necessarily for everyone else.

some view religion as the personification of spirituality, and some view it as the very thing itself.

Lets leave all the "motes" alone and vote.

[Ron]

for you. but not necessarily for everyone else.

some view religion as the personification of spirituality, and some view it as the very thing itself.

Lets leave all the "motes" alone and vote.
I know there's no point in debating with a mod, but hey... I'm to try! lol

Let's start with the defintions of "Religion" and "Spirituality"...


re·li·gion
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
n. pl. spir·i·tu·al·i·ties

1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.
2. The clergy.
3. Something, such as property or revenue, that belongs to the church or to a cleric. Often used in the plural.

"being spiritual? define "spiritual" s.v.p...

spir·i·tu·al
adj.

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.


n.

1.
1. A religious folk song of African-American origin.
2. A work composed in imitation of such a song.
2. Religious, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters. Often used in the plural.

Thus, in essence...
Religion: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."
Spirituality: "The state, quality, manner, or fact of [...] relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material."

THUS... Religion and Spirituality are quite different, at least according to the "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company, Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved."... which appears as the first resource for both of these searches, on Dictionary.com...

Which I am going to have to aside with, partly because I am not English and I rely on dictionaries to explain the meanings of English words....

Thank you, and Merry Noswyl Calan Gaeaf.

[flar7]

nice. but not relevant to what I said. People use words as they see fit, and do not always follow nor recognize the definition behind a word. Language is fluid and constantly changing in meaning to such extent that no dictionary printed could ever keep up.


so, while the dictionary will give you one or more meanings, the people are the ones who use the words and apply them. That means, that for you, those words are different and not interchangeable nor much related to the other (perhaps), but for others, they are very similar or perhaps even the same.

[Ron]

Yes, but if I say "flar7 is sexy", but if I mean to use the word "sexy" as one might use the word "ugly".. .does that really mean that me saying "flar7 is sexy" = "flar7 is ugly"... see that just doesn't work for me.

"The purpose of language is not to be understood, but to make it impossible to be understood."

Conclusion: the dictionary is the Gd of the English Language

[Anubis RainHawk]

I also highly agree that Christianity is a true religion. I personally find a question like this truly offensive. How would you feel if someone questioned your religion?

Anubis RainHawk

[Ron]

I also highly agree that Christianity is a true religion. I personally find a question like this truly offensive. How would you feel if someone questioned your religion?

Anubis RainHawk
You can ask my minister at Knox United Church, if I attend every Sunday... and you will see I do. I am a Christian person, out of a Christian family. I was simply interested in the thoughts of others, not questioning any religion.

[Imbrium]

Rant...I'm just going to get this off my chest.

OK, so let me see if I get this.....Is Christianity a true religion? Er...why wouldn't it be? Probably even more true than the Oklahoman church of the blessed toaster.

Honestly, these questions confound me. It's not like I can cough up a DNA sample of Jesus to prove my opinion. And even if I could, I don't think that would make Christianity any more or less viable than any other religion.

I was Christian once. Now you couldn't get me back in Church without an electric cattle prod....but still, I can't imagine why the Christian faith wouldn't be a true religion.....

OK, I'm done ranting now. Please forgive me...I'm having an off day.

[flar7]

Yes, but if I say "flar7 is sexy...
then I would agree and my wife would wonder more about you...

but others would not, and sexy as a word has changed as well.

like bad. I am "bad?" hard to say, the definition is not as concrete as we want. But, its as I said, you choose your meaning, and others will choose theirs. Many choose to associate the two, religion/spirituality, more closely or as the same, while others use the "old school" (another example) form of the words and keep those as their main focal meaning.


also people, the question is quite valid and not offensive if read correctly. Just read it. Its like asking a simple question. Do you believe A = B? If so, cool, if not, so what? It is not worth getting offended over, merely a poll.

[Ron]

then I would agree and my wife would wonder more about you...

but others would not, and sexy as a word has changed as well.

like bad. I am "bad?" hard to say, the definition is not as concrete as we want. But, its as I said, you choose your meaning, and others will choose theirs. Many choose to associate the two, religion/spirituality, more closely or as the same, while others use the "old school" (another example) form of the words and keep those as their main focal meaning.
LOL!! your and your wife would wonder more about me? swingers?! gah! lol *jk*

Yes, I suppose you are correct. The dictionary is my bible, if I may use such a metaphor.


also people, the question is quite valid and not offensive if read correctly. Just read it. Its like asking a simple question. Do you believe A = B? If so, cool, if not, so what? It is not worth getting offended over, merely a poll.
Forget "hailmol" it's time for a "hailflar7".

[Moon Daughter]

is it a religion that is real? yes, it is.
is it true as in the ONLY RIGHT ONE? no, i don't think it is.

[DarkDancer]

Infinite Grey,

I never dismissed anyone's beliefs.

[Faerin]

I know there's no point in debating with a mod, but hey... I'm to try! lol

Let's start with the defintions of "Religion" and "Spirituality"...



"being spiritual? define "spiritual" s.v.p...


Thus, in essence...
Religion: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."
Spirituality: "The state, quality, manner, or fact of [...] relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material."

THUS... Religion and Spirituality are quite different, at least according to the "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company, Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved."... which appears as the first resource for both of these searches, on Dictionary.com...

Which I am going to have to aside with, partly because I am not English and I rely on dictionaries to explain the meanings of English words....

Thank you, and Merry Noswyl Calan Gaeaf.

Indeed the dictionary is a great source to learn new words or help describe words in more detail. However, I agree with Flar...you cannot let the dictionary hold the definition in concrete. Words are more pliable than that.

As an example, if you ask a witch what her or his definition of a "witch" is, you will most definitly get a different answer than the dictionary describes: witch: 1.a. A sorceress. esp. in folkore. b. A woman believed to practice sorcery. 2. A hag. 3. Informal. A bewitching woman.

I even looked up sorcery: Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits.

As you can see these definitions are obvious opinions of the authors who write them and do not reflect the actual definition of the word concerning the whole population.

I hope you find this useful info :) Blessed be

[Ron]

Indeed the dictionary is a great source to learn new words or help describe words in more detail. However, I agree with Flar...you cannot let the dictionary hold the definition in concrete. Words are more pliable than that.

As an example, if you ask a witch what her or his definition of a "witch" is, you will most definitly get a different answer than the dictionary describes: witch: 1.a. A sorceress. esp. in folkore. b. A woman believed to practice sorcery. 2. A hag. 3. Informal. A bewitching woman.

I even looked up sorcery: Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits.

As you can see these definitions are obvious opinions of the authors who write them and do not reflect the actual definition of the word concerning the whole population.

I hope you find this useful info :) Blessed be


witch Audio pronunciation of "witch" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wch)
n.

1. A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
2. A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
3. A hag.
4. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
5. Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.
6. One particularly skilled or competent at one's craft: “A witch of a writer, [she] is capable of developing an intensity that verges on ferocity” (Peter S. Prescott).
Blessed be, yourself. :D

[Ron]

Indeed the dictionary is a great source to learn new words or help describe words in more detail. However, I agree with Flar...you cannot let the dictionary hold the definition in concrete. Words are more pliable than that.

As an example, if you ask a witch what her or his definition of a "witch" is, you will most definitly get a different answer than the dictionary describes: witch: 1.a. A sorceress. esp. in folkore. b. A woman believed to practice sorcery. 2. A hag. 3. Informal. A bewitching woman.

I even looked up sorcery: Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits.

As you can see these definitions are obvious opinions of the authors who write them and do not reflect the actual definition of the word concerning the whole population.

I hope you find this useful info :) Blessed be


sor·cer·y Audio pronunciation of "sorcery" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sôrs-r)
n.

Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits; witchcraft.

I shall let the facts stand for themselves, my dear.

[Faerin]

I think you kinda missed my point, but that's fine :)

[Ron]

I think you kinda missed my point, but that's fine :)
Well, you're wrong _taparoo_ :D I understand with what you are saying, I'm just standing up for the integretity of the Dictionary. :D I know that just cause it's in the dictionary doesn't mean it's true -- just as just cause it's in the bible/torah/qu'ran/etc doesn't mean it's true. But stiil, given the respect it is given, it's not completely unadmissible. But, there are obviously words that have changed their meaning of the years -- like word "mad" which I often use in the archaic sense. :imout:

[Faerin]

I'm just standing up for the integretity of the Dictionary.
Yeah, I get that, but not everyone has the same dictionary, as we have both proved with our quotes. I was just trying to point out that definitions in the dictionary don't always match someone's opinion of what the word can mean...that's all really :)

[flar7]

yep, the dictionary varies based on region published, publisher, year, and many other factors. Now most words will match up with another dictionary, but not all...

[Ron]

Yeah, I get that, but not everyone has the same dictionary, as we have both proved with our quotes. I was just trying to point out that definitions in the dictionary don't always match someone's opinion of what the word can mean...that's all really :)
:drinking: teehehe well me, I like my dictionary.com :)

[flar7]

a good example is the word pagan. Most now acquaint that word with religion, and mostly with religions outside the Judeo Christian ones, but the dictionary used to say simply, "country person/dweller" now, most likely the word will expand to include a branch of religious aspect.

[Morning Star]

a good example is the word pagan. Most now acquaint that word with religion, and mostly with religions outside the Judeo Christian ones, but the dictionary used to say simply, "country person/dweller" now, most likely the word will expand to include a branch of religious aspect.

"Pagan" is a term that used to be used almost as an insult, but many philosophers and artists during the enlightenment took great amusement in saying, "If I love nature and not the Church, I'm pagan? If I like pleasure, I'm pagan? If I don't believe in the One All Powerful Catholic God, I'm pagan? Alright. Fine. I'm Pagan."

The same is true for Satanism. The Christians argue that you are either under the influence of God or Satan - so "Satanists" look at the Christians and say, "Well, we don't worship your God, then we must be Satanists."

We've taken negative terms and turned them into positive terms, because we believed that when these terms originated, they originated as nasty terms that described something that was, basically, good...mainly a love of oneself, of ones' world and of the nature inherent in both.

[StephanieAine]

_happydanc Yep, Jesus is real, and Christianity is a real religion.

[Myzttycal]

I believe it is real to those who believe in it. Who am I to tell someone that there beliefs are not "real".
I also don't believe that they are the one and only religion as many of the followers do, BUT I am not here to critisize anyone for their beliefs, this was done to too many Pagans (and still is being done) in the past and I for one do not want to be a part of that.
Myzttycal

[Celtic Solstice]

_happydanc Yep, Jesus is real, and Christianity is a real religion.

Another "Celtic Christian" though I usually throw "pagan" in between the two terms as well... *grin*

I have to say that I was confused by this post and still am. I read the original post as well as the one that the original post directs us to. I still am not sure of the point.

The problem for me is that the phrasing is loaded...

Is Christrianity "real" or "true"?

#1 Real - as in the religion exists? (well, yeah, it is kind of hard to ignore that it is a religion regardless of your opinion of the beliefs)

#2 Real - as in the stuff "Christians" believe is "real"? (the question is non-specific; some thing that Christians believe I agree with and some I don't - and I identify myself as Christian. I can only imagine a non-Christian would go even farther in the things they don't agree with - the problem is that "Christians" believe a lot of diverse things. Some believe that Mary never had kids with Joseph. I would say she did... you know what I mean?)

#3 True - as in "real religion" (see #1)

#4 True - as in has everything right (see #2)

#5 True - as in the only legitimate religion out there (I have to include this one because I have friends who are fundamentalist Christian who insist that theirs is the only "TRUE RELIGION" and this is what they mean. My response: ABSOLUTELY NOT)

I choose not to vote in the poll because my statement could be taken to mean anything.

Celtic Solstice

PS: I apologize if I am going over old ground (I read as much as I could but there are a lot of posts on this thread)

[StephanieAine]

The "real" and "true" description of yours, Celtic Solstice, is exactly why I worded my reply the way I did. <g>

(And Celtic Christians aren't necessarily "Celtic paganChristians" or "Christopagans" or whatever other terms people might use, by the way. I'm just an ordinary, coffee-guzzling Christian... well, with "Celtic" tacked on the front!)

[flar7]

"Pagan" is a term that used to be used almost as an insult, but many philosophers and artists during the enlightenment took great amusement in saying, "If I love nature and not the Church, I'm pagan? If I like pleasure, I'm pagan? If I don't believe in the One All Powerful Catholic God, I'm pagan? Alright. Fine. I'm Pagan."

The same is true for Satanism. The Christians argue that you are either under the influence of God or Satan - so "Satanists" look at the Christians and say, "Well, we don't worship your God, then we must be Satanists."

We've taken negative terms and turned them into positive terms, because we believed that when these terms originated, they originated as nasty terms that described something that was, basically, good...mainly a love of oneself, of ones' world and of the nature inherent in both.
ah, but Pagan didnt start out as a negative term in that way. It was a word to describe the country folk and separate them from the more "civilized" townspeople. Later, the term took on a religous tinge when the majority of non christians were located in the far away areas (likely for safety) out in the country, then being a country person would put you in suspicion of the church of perhaps being a devil worshiper.

[OMmomma]

I consider Christianity to be the largest, most successful cult, in history. Oh. it's 'real' alright! A Real Cult! A Real Power! A Real Spiritual Path too! Call it a Religion, if you must, I guess that's what it's morphed into.

That's not to say, there isn't much wisdom in the gospel, or that there isn't a transcendent quality to the theology itself. But I have noticed that the dogma surrounding and permeating the orthodoxy, disguises truth, more than reveals it. I won't even get into the issues I have with the 'believers'. That's not what this thread is for.

BTW, I find all major religions rife with the dogma and delusions of man's fears and insecurities, not just Christianity.

Peace

[Morning Star]

ah, but Pagan didnt start out as a negative term in that way. It was a word to describe the country folk and separate them from the more "civilized" townspeople. Later, the term took on a religous tinge when the majority of non christians were located in the far away areas (likely for safety) out in the country, then being a country person would put you in suspicion of the church of perhaps being a devil worshiper.


True - I merely meant in a religious context - it began as an insult.

[Ron]

Yes, I believe that Christianity is a real religion. Personally, I don't see the point in this question. That'd be like someone posting up if Paganism was real or a joke.
The point in the question was, my good friend, to see how many people agree with me that Christianity is a real religion. As you can surely see by the results of the poll thus far, there are those that do not. Do not scorn me for being interested in the opinions and beliefs of others. :bothsides

:) Peace :)

[Ron]

BTW, I find all major religions rife with the dogma and delusions of man's fears and insecurities, not just Christianity.

Peace
Ordinarily I would agree, but I would say that if you can simply take the story of Jesus as it is told, there are things you can learn from it, things which I find good to know - regardless of whether there was a flesh and blood Jesus.

[Ron]

Sorry, I used to be Catholic and I couldn't help posting. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
Proper translation of the original words would, probably, not reveal the same meaning. Regardless, there are several ways those words could be translated... ie. maybe this is Jesus saying "I hold real knowledge and it is the only knowledge that will let one close to G!d. But that does not mean to say that others to not hold the same knowledge."... This is why we have ministers and such to explain biblical quotes.

[DamienDeville]

In My Oppinion It isnt,in others it is.But the same goes for my beliefs to me its real and to others it isn't....So my take on it is this if it is,Then we are in some BIG TROUBLE.

[Sonic Seamus]

I think it was at one point but like all things that the human race has gotten ahold of it's been twisted into something unpure and rather sinister. The spirituality of christianity can be a great thing but the religion is weilded as both a sword and measuring stick. Because thousands of people misuse the gospel doesnt make it any less viable, just less practiced. I dont fault the path for the errors of the travelers.

I like reading the new testament simply beacuse Yeshuwa was a radical and a revolutionary. He rose against the popular beliefe of the time and questioned the status quo. If he were alive today, he'd be labeled a terrorist, thrown in jail till the end of time.

[XxAuroraxX]

i am unsure about christianity. i don't really believe most of it, it just doesn't go with me

[Todd Louis]

No It is a way of controll. Yes there was a man called Jesus. But just a man! They are Pagans they just do'nt know it. Most of what they do is Pagan. All it has done is assimelated (spelling!) or forced its way in so to speek. I have a freind who is Born Agin and I just let her be It is her path If she wants to know something I will tell here the truth. That is the truth is the truth. it's not an opinon it's real history not biblical mithology. As hard as it may be to pople. I for one don't live in a lie.

[Luminessence]

I believe that Jesus did txist, and that God chose him to be a prophet. I don't know whether he thought that he was God himself and that he was the only way to heaven, but it would make sense if he did develop those ideas - we're all fallible, and it's easy to get carried away. And I think that Christianity would have been a much better religion, and much truer to Jesus's teachings, if it weren't for Paul.

[maria-margarita]

I believe that Jesus did txist, and that God chose him to be a prophet. I don't know whether he thought that he was God himself and that he was the only way to heaven, but it would make sense if he did develop those ideas - we're all fallible, and it's easy to get carried away. And I think that Christianity would have been a much better religion, and much truer to Jesus's teachings, if it weren't for Paul.


I know a lot of people that feels the same you do about Paul's teaching. Let's face it sometimes it's alittle harsh.
But I'm not going to judge someone that lived over 1,000 of years ago. Things were so much different then and sometimes I don't think it can apply to our day and age.
I for one do believe in Jesus. I believe that he did what he did was out of love.
I believe in God. I also believe we all have the right to chose our own faith.
I know that are a lot of people out there that gives Christians a bad am and trust me I really get anger with those people.
Because the truth is they are not living a Christ like life.
A true Christian will stand what they believe and doesn't judge.
They go by faith and not sight. Those are the Christians I know.
So in a nut shell I would have to say Christianity is True to those who believe in it.

[wakywitch]

I do believe that Jesus was a healer.
That's all I'll say.

[Ron]

I do believe that Jesus was a healer.
That's all I'll say.
I think I know what you mean, it's pretty hard to give a yes or no - I prefer to just avoid the question :alol:

[Kheti]

Do I believe Christianity is real,well I abstained,but If I personally did then I wouldnt be on here,unless I were trying to convert all of you.

[Ron]

Do I believe Christianity is real,well I abstained,but If I personally did then I wouldnt be on here,unless I were trying to convert all of you.
Are you saying that if you were a Christian you would not be interested in other spiritualities? :rubhead: Just wondering :D

[chrestomancie]

Christianity is a very real and true religion. Whenever there is a group of people (or person) who "believes", it makes whatever the belief is, real. If that makes any sense.

[Kheti]

Are you saying that if you were a Christian you would not be interested in other spiritualities? :rubhead: Just wondering :D
Exactly,because the bible forbids any association with pagan religions or beliefs.

[chrestomancie]

Exactly,because the bible forbids any association with pagan religions or beliefs.

Yes, but did Jesus teach that? I believe being a christian should be following the teachings of Jesus - not the bible. However in Samuel 1 - Chapter 28, Saul seeks out a woman who has a familiar spirit (witch obviously!). He didn't have a problem seeking out a person not of Christianity.

[Ron]

Yes, but did Jesus teach that? I believe being a christian should be following the teachings of Jesus - not the bible. However in Samuel 1 - Chapter 28, Saul seeks out a woman who has a familiar spirit (witch obviously!). He didn't have a problem seeking out a person not of Christianity.
Bless you, Sister. T'would have been nearly my exact response.

Peace and Love.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

*backs away slowly before opening mouth and getting in trouble*
Have fun :)

[charmedkisses1]

Just wondering why you think your vote determines the fate of another religion.... that's like asking if paganism is real.

[charmedkisses1]

Exactly,because the bible forbids any association with pagan religions or beliefs.
Determining what is straightly Christian/pagan is kind of hard, don't you think? Other than the obvious.... I mean, even Christians have prophets (psychics to us) or people who talk with spirits (from their God)

[Morning Star]

Yes, but did Jesus teach that? I believe being a christian should be following the teachings of Jesus - not the bible. However in Samuel 1 - Chapter 28, Saul seeks out a woman who has a familiar spirit (witch obviously!). He didn't have a problem seeking out a person not of Christianity.

Ummm, wasn't the book of Samuel in the Old Testiment? Therefore, there were no Christians at that time.

The Old Testiment is very clear that you are suppose to kill anyone who is not a Jew if they so much as ask you to worship other gods with them. As for the New Testiment - much more of the New Testiment is written by Paul and Paul's vision for the Christian Church. Only a tiny portion of the Bible is about Jesus Christ.

[PoisonIvy]

If Christianity isn't real than there are a lot of people in this world that are worshipping something that isn't there. I was brought up to be a Christian,and even though I believe in one God I still practice witchcraft. I pray and I help heal people because God gives me the gift to be able to help. That's all I know.
Blessed Be!

[Rudas Starblaze]

If Christianity isn't real than there are a lot of people in this world that are worshipping something that isn't there. I was brought up to be a Christian,and even though I believe in one God I still practice witchcraft. I pray and I help heal people because God gives me the gift to be able to help. That's all I know.
Blessed Be!


well, said sis, well said indeed!!

[coyoger]

Every religion in the world has it's share of truths, but none is wholely correct. IMO

[Morrighan61]

I believe Jeshua ben Joseph, rabbi existed. I believe he was "a" son of God/dess and that he came here to show us the true meaning of unconditional love. I do not believe he came here to "save us" but to set an example, to show us our true potential as human beings.

The religion that bears his name?

Probably twisted in a lot of respects from what he did teach, but a religion of love not hate as practiced by REAL Christians, not "holier than thou" wanna be Christians.

Is it for me?

Absolutely not.

I do revere Christ as I do Buddha, and I genuinely like him, but I don't worship him.

Frankly, I don't think he'd want me to....

:)

Morrighan

[Ron]

Frankly, I don't think he'd want me to.... I've spent hours preaching this... :) _twohorns_

[Kotake]

Umm... I am too lazy to read the whole post, so some of these things might already have been said. Sorry for any incovenience.

I believe there lived a person supposedly called Jesus and that he was a powerful magician/shaman/witch, to be able to do the things the Bible says he does, like healing.

I believe that nearly all religions have some beliefs in common (as coyoger said), so that one divinity may go by different names and interpretations according to different religions. In other words, it is possible to compromise to a certain extension. To say it so (in an ugly sentence), I do not believe that there does not exist one whom the Christians call God. I can agree that parts of the Bible are the words of God in my own sense of definition. The people who wrote them might have communicated with their God to guide them.

But personally I do not believe in Christianity's teachings about sin and that Jesus is God at the same time as he is not. Neither do I believe in a hell and heaven. I do not know how much of the Bible is considered to be true, but then again, who does...

[TornadoAli]

Personally I think christianity was created to control people. They took over all the original holidays, subverted them, and threatened people with going to hell if they didn't do what they were told.

This is not to say people aren't entitled to their own religion. In that aspect, sure, christianity is valid. Have at it. Angry gods and do-this-or-else mentality just isn't for me, that's all.

[Fang of Loki]

Yes, I believe that Christianity is a real religion. It's just one that I choose not to follow.

[Amryn]

I believe christianity is a real religion. Who am I to say which religion is valid and which is not?

[Angelus_Errare]

I think that there is no such thing as gods or goddesses. I just don't believe that they are real. That is my choice to think that way. No one whether it be a god or person, is going to govern my life. I will do what I choose. I answer to no god. No person. Thats just me. I will decide my own fate and destiny. That is what I have choosen. :)

[moria636]

I believe that there was a jesus and that he was a profit and that he was here to teach others, prehaps show humanity a world of peace and love and to turn away from barbaric ways... I agree with Morrighan61...and I also don't believe he was here to save" us from our "sins".......I also believe that christinanity came about as the people evolved the old religion died and was reborn in a way as christiantiy...for some the god and the goddess became Mary and Jesus... and all the other comparisons....(im not saying it is pagan)...just saying...2 cents thats all
I believe this religion was at its pure-ist form I believe in the time of jesus and then lost its way.....

[Angelus_Errare]

Just to add to my other post, I don't have a religion, I just walk with the Earth and Nature. Love it and respect it. :)

[wakywitch]

Aww come on, not yet another thread of is it true or false!

[ShamanFeather]

Helwo... I wasn't interested in how many Christians there are here. I wanted to know how many believe in the religion as a vaild one.

I haven't read any of the rest of the posts here, but Christianity is a valid religion just like all the others its a system of beliefs. To say Christianity isn't a real religion is like saying Wiccan isn't a real religion, it would be an insult to those who follow that path. I don't know where it comes from but there is a saying that there are many paths to to the center or to the source. Follow what path you want and let others follow the ones they want.

[WingedTigerChild]

Personally I think christianity was created to control people. They took over all the original holidays, subverted them, and threatened people with going to hell if they didn't do what they were told.

This is not to say people aren't entitled to their own religion. In that aspect, sure, christianity is valid. Have at it. Angry gods and do-this-or-else mentality just isn't for me, that's all.
I disagree. I don't think Christianity was created to control people, but I do think it was/is used as a means to control people.

[Flar's Freyja]

All religions are real to their followers - and truth is in the eye of the beholder.

I believe that Jesus Christ did exist and that he was a wonderful shaman and healer, and maybe even a god in his own right.

But I don't buy the salvation story.

If he died for my transgressions, then why the hell do I have to work so hard at living right?

[Flar's Freyja]

I disagree. I don't think Christianity was created to control people, but I do think it was/is used as a means to control people.

Sociology teaches that religion is the "opium of the people." People need something to believe in for their sanity, and rules come into play just like the laws that are created to control society. Without them, we'd have a mess.

[AlAskendir]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?

(edit) Due to some shortsighted persons, I would like everyone to please refer to this post (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1366001&postcount=137) before insulting me as a Christian or as anything else. Thank you.

Unlike unicorns, of whom I have only seen three and met one, I have met an untold plethora of christians. They really do exist...was there any doubt?

Oh, a 'true religion'? As opposed to what? Otherkin? All religions are 'true'...religions that is, 'religion' itself being a political twisting of a spirituality in my opinion.

[ShamanFeather]

U\
Oh, a 'true religion'? As opposed to what? Otherkin? All religions are 'true'...religions that is,\

Hmm perhaps this is a bit off topic but those who I've known who've called themselves otherkin is less a religion but more a state of being...

[WingedTigerChild]

Sociology teaches that religion is the "opium of the people." People need something to believe in for their sanity, and rules come into play just like the laws that are created to control society. Without them, we'd have a mess.
I know that. I was simply responding to a poster who suggested that Christianity was created solely to control the masses (I think?). I don't think that's true at all. I believe it was "created" as other religions were...as an individual perception that others eventually "latched on to" in agreement with it. It was just used as a means to control by the persons in power, but it was not created to be such.

[Yesod]

think it's a fake religion that for people who believe in it, is real, since I believe reality is relative. If you believe youre going to hell, you might end up there.

[WingedTigerChild]

Question...how can you be sure a religion is fake? I mean, all religions could just as well be fake. "God" could just be "all in your head," as my father likes to say.

[IvyWitch]

Question...how can you be sure a religion is fake? I mean, all religions could just as well be fake. "God" could just be "all in your head," as my father likes to say.

*nods* I agree, there really isn't a way of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt, which is why I think all claims of "my way is the only way" are silly.

[AlAskendir]

Question...how can you be sure a religion is fake? I mean, all religions could just as well be fake. "God" could just be "all in your head," as my father likes to say.

When the people in this way of spirituality who are talking to you about this way of spirituality define how to act, or behave, or be moral within this way of spirituality, and then act or behave in ways that are obviously contrary to that.

[sari0009]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?

(edit) Due to some shortsighted persons, I would like everyone to please refer to this post (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1366001&postcount=137) before insulting me as a Christian or as anything else. Thank you.

Um, like....mu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28Japanese_word%29)!

Problematic question!

What does the term "true religion" mean and who would be judging it "true" through what interpretations, criteria, and reasoning?

[Yesod]

Question...how can you be sure a religion is fake? I mean, all religions could just as well be fake. "God" could just be "all in your head," as my father likes to say.

The only religions that I think are "bad" is fundamentalist Islam and Christianity. Not even so much the ideas of the Bible, but the DOGMA that they peddle.

I think Catholicism is fake because when researching the history of it... ah hell.

First, let's get one thing straight. I think that early Christianity is closer to the "truth" than say, the decendence of Catholicism. "Gnosticism, which is very different in many respects from what Christianity became later on, is much more individualistic. It is much more orientated toward the personal, spiritual advancement and transformation of the individual, regarding figures such as Jesus as being helpers rather than sacrificial saviors. It is a form of religion that has a much more ecumenical and universal scope in terms of its relationship to spiritual, religious traditions other than the Christian."

"This basic gnostic myth is that the creator described in Genesis is not the true god, but an inferior Demiurge. The Demiurge has many sort of ministers, or archons, and together they are responsible for this miserable world. Though imprisoned in this "abortion of matter," humanity carries within itself the leftover sparks of the precosmic light that existed before the Demiurge and his creation. Human beings are thus totally superior to the ecosystem—not stewards, but strangers in a strange land. Our body and the soul ("psyche") cloak this spiritual "spark" and must be rent for us to rediscover our true being."

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

"The nature of the Gnostic approach to religion was always such that it represented a serious challenge to ecclesiastical authority and to the domination of people by the Church and the rulers of the Church. So the church successfully suppressed Gnosticism which was primarily political and was rooted in the power complex of the authorities."

Want some interesting links?

http://www.vetssweatshop.net/dogma.htm
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm
http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_2f.htm
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch24.htm
And of course Zoroastrianism is not the only element that went into the amalgamation we call Christianity.

I am NOT trying to say that Zoroastrianism is bad or wrong. Only that mainstream christianity's silly DOGMA is not authentic.

So you may ask yourself, do I think Paganism is "unhealthy" since I added those links? Of course not, or I wouldn't be here. I believe that the gods and goddesses are different aspects or faces of the Godhead, and fit into archetypes of the Archons (7) the sun, the moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn... to me, they are the elements that make up our lower being. I believe the deities plug directly into this.

...sorry for the long post.

[Taurwen]

What other religion has non-followers going to eternal torture?

What other religion has people going around the world and telling others that their religion is nothing?

What other religion has followers fighting against each other. Hitler was a christian - Mussolini was a christian - FDR and Churchill were both christians - Stalin was as well.

There is much I don't like about christianity. The Jewish religion doesn't have a hell for non-followers, nor does it have missionaries going around into the streets screaming "HAVE YOU FOUND YAHWEH???". Jews believed even that God was known to different peoples by different names, not just as one. I have no idea where the bridge collapsed in the formation of the Christian religion to believe that their religion is entirely correct and everything else isn't. We even talk directly to our deities, we see our deities and hear their voices. Not just pray and "know" there is someone on the other side listening.


But yes, Christianity is a valid religion. IMO christians are worshipping the God of Israel. I was born in a christian household, and now I'm a jew. If I was born anything else I probably would have stayed it.

[Yesod]

Hitler was a christian

actually, I did the research and I found out that he wasn't.

Christians say that even if you are a righteous person, and do not accept Christian dogma, you get eternal torment. I hope they'll forgive me for saying so, but from my perspective, that is one of the most spiritually bankrupt theologies that I have come across.

Christ did not say, "Believe on this dogma and be ye saved." You'll notice that the writers of the epistles do not rely on dogma and doctrine to save either. The writer of the first epistle of John writes, "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God for God is love."

The individual's choice to rebel against love is respected by the Divine--not punished.
Why? Because the rejection of love is its own punishment.

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

I can't really answer this question too easily. I don't think it's entirely fake, but mainstream Christianity scares the hell out of me, no pun intended. I can't quite put my finger on it yet, but when I meet certain Christians, the smiley persecution type especially, I feel an overwhelming sense of fear. Not really even fear so much for myself, but in many ways for them. It's not that I think their religion is "wrong", but it seems like they are almost robotic in action and appearance that they aren't even human anymore.

And not too long ago I bashed Christianity any chance I got, and sometimes I slip and do it now, but I recently came to the realization that no matter what, it's the individual that matters the most, for good or ill. If someone comes up to you and in some way harasses you for being a Pagan and uses their Christian beliefs as their reasoning, think that if it where the other way around and they were the Pagan and you the Christian they would do the same damn thing. Jerks are jerks, and they would surely still be a jerk even if there was no Christianity.

And I can happily say I know some truly good people who associate themselves with the Christian religion. One, a lady who works with my girlfriend, actually gave us two hundred dollars when we had some serious money trouble a while back, and she insisted on us NOT paying her back because she really cared about us and wanted to help us. No hidden God message, no stupid manipulative come-to-my-church bullshit, no "look how much better I am of a person than you" nonsense, just a really good-hearted person at work. And that my friends would be the best definition of 'God' if ever there was one.

[Ron]

I can't really answer this question too easily. I don't think it's entirely fake, but mainstream Christianity scares the hell out of me, no pun intended. I can't quite put my finger on it yet, but when I meet certain Christians, the smiley persecution type especially, I feel an overwhelming sense of fear. Not really even fear so much for myself, but in many ways for them. It's not that I think their religion is "wrong", but it seems like they are almost robotic in action and appearance that they aren't even human anymore.

And not too long ago I bashed Christianity any chance I got, and sometimes I slip and do it now, but I recently came to the realization that no matter what, it's the individual that matters the most, for good or ill. If someone comes up to you and in some way harasses you for being a Pagan and uses their Christian beliefs as their reasoning, think that if it where the other way around and they were the Pagan and you the Christian they would do the same damn thing. Jerks are jerks, and they would surely still be a jerk even if there was no Christianity.

And I can happily say I know some truly good people who associate themselves with the Christian religion. One, a lady who works with my girlfriend, actually gave us two hundred dollars when we had some serious money trouble a while back, and she insisted on us NOT paying her back because she really cared about us and wanted to help us. No hidden God message, no stupid manipulative come-to-my-church bullshit, no "look how much better I am of a person than you" nonsense, just a really good-hearted person at work. And that my friends would be the best definition of 'God' if ever there was one.
My life story in three paragraphs^^

I'm a Gnostic Middle Chr-stian now :)

[Athene]

Blessings everyone,

There is much that I don't like about Christianity, and I'm a Christian.

It's important, no, crucial, to remember that Christianity is a label used by a diverse group of people. There are something like 1600 different denominations of Christianity in USA alone. The reason being that we disagree on beliefs, doctrine and so on.

I am a Christian because I believe and follow the teachings of Christ. That is about all most Christians can claim as universally Christian. All the rest is up for debate.

If you ever make a statement that begins with something like, "Christians believe...", I would say you're immediately wrong. Some Christians believe. These two words have to go together at all times.

Christianity is not just middle America. There are individuals and other countries. Slapping on the label is easy, living the life is a different thing altogether. Don't lump us all into one heap, because then you're making a social, religious and spiritual inaccuracy.

be blessed
:fpeace:

[Raven Heart]

Ok well Any religion is a religion as long as some believes in it.
I just do not understand it. So here i go. First i am not christian and was not raised christian so i am as much as an outsider as you can be in this country. SO this is what i do not get. Number christ was a jew and got nailed to the cross in some regard by jews. So acording to the power to be of judaism at the time he was no there measiah. He was just another nut. How many leaders have been said to do miracles. It was real common to claim emperors doing miracles. He did not raise an army to over through rome like the jew's measiah was thought to have done. So to them he was not there leader. Also if he was the son of god why would he let him self get killed by such a human way, cause if god was all knowing than he would of known being dieing on the cross really did us no good. His whole sacriface. His own blatant suicide for our sins was pointless. They did not go away. Since his death our sins our far worse than what they used to be. So christ was beaten and nailed to a cross and died in a horrible manner for no good. Than his legacy is books written after his death. The four gospels several years after his death. Each one contradicting the others. They could not even get the details of his birth the same. So Christ commits suicide, hundreds years later rome converts. War follows. The dark ages follow. A time to forget reasoning and join the church cause some guy got nailed to a piece of wood that was not even important enough to write about during his life time or shortly after his life time. Heck even if you did not want to join the church you still joined cause your king did or was killed by a christian nation and replaced by a christen king. The peasants surffered and the popes touched small boys. The church got rich and you got dieses and famine. You prey for a better life in heaven, even while the cross has a man hanging on it that died for your sins. Again it makes no sense to me.
Ok
I am done
Raven Heart

Yes i admit modern wicca(what i follow) started with Gardner in the late 40's. I do not believe i follow some unbroken chain that survived the burning times.

[StormVixen]

i believe some of christianity is real but because alot of the bible seems to be contradictory i personally can't see that christianity is totallly true although some probably is....

[Athene]

Blessings Raven Heart,

While I appreciate your opinion and fully support your right to have it, I do believe that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have a sound opinion or judgement about something you do not know about or believe.

I could go ahead and explain every point or question you raised, but it would take an entire book, knowledge of the book and spiritual connection, to 'get it'. ;)

I would quickly like to say two things. Firstly, that Christ did not die to abolish sin meaning that sin would not exist, we are free agents to make our own choices.

Secondly, the church and my Christian faith are two very different things.

be blessed

[Lady Jade]

I think Christianity is a valid relgion, as I believe all religions are equally valid...they are all the same. Simply put the quest for spirituality itself is the crux of life. I believe that Jesus existed, and that he is the Son of God, as we are each the Son of God.

I choose not to follow this path, but find it as valid as my own.

[Raven Heart]

Blessings Raven Heart,

While I appreciate your opinion and fully support your right to have it, I do believe that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have a sound opinion or judgement about something you do not know about or believe.

Agree. It is just what it looks to someone on the outside. No one can understand what it is to be christian unless they truly lived it, just like someone could not be a witch unless you truly live it.
Raven Heart

[MoonDragn]

I believe that Jesus Christ was a real person, if not the son of god then a very wise prophet. His teachings were all about love and acceptance of others. I think that throughout the years it has been warped and changed to suit the need of one ruler or another and what christianity is in its current form is certainly not what Jesus Christ had intended.

[Zophael]

Anyone else aware of some of the Dead Sea Scroll findings. In them they discovered that Christ was vehemently opposed to organized religion. (Just remember the stories of him freaking out at the temples) Christ said all you need to know is in your heart and that you don't need anyone else to tell you how to live a good life and enter heaven.
I refer to Christ as the original Satan because Satan means adversary, which he definitely was to the Jewish order of the time.

[Hippywitch]

Wow, this has been a really interesting thread and it's taken me ages to read all of the postings!

Here we go, in my opinion Christianity is a valid religion. I prefer to use the term 'valid' rather than 'true' or 'real'. Jesus, the person existed. There are contemporary Roman documents that mention his trial though not him by name as Jesus. The Romans in Judea, and the romanised Jews, saw him as a threat, as an instigator of political unrest (and religion is often political). I believe he was a teacher and an advocator of change. I don't personally believe he was a/the messiah though from a spiritual point of view he may have been a prophet. Certainly his teachings point to him being enlightened. I don't believe he is The Son of God. But then again I don't believe in there being One God. To my way of thinking we are all the sons and daughters of the gods.

As for the bible... many others on this thread have pointed out the rewrites, the omissions and inclusions, the multiple translations, etc. It is difficult for us, in the modern world, to know exactly what was originally written and even if we did interpretations would be as many and varied as there are people on the Earth. Also considering the persecution of early christians there is a great deal of evidence that points to large chunks of the NT being written in code, or at least deliberately obliquely.

Without access to the Apocrypha and the elided texts, without knowledge of ancient languages, well I just find it a difficult book to place my faith in.

Faith. That is the question here isn't it? Faith is personal to each individual. Or at least it should be. I will not question another's faith if that is what they truly believe. I will not denigrate the beliefs of another even if I do not believe in them or even find them harmful or offensive. I have only respect for those who find their faith elsewhere to mine.

But those who say one thing and do another, those who do not see the validity of another's beliefs, those who use doctrine to justify erroneous actions, these are the people we should all have a problem with.

[Hærfest Leah]

Looks like someone has acceptance issues. To me (raised as a christain but not now) christianity is "a" religion among many, and Jesus was a guy among many also. Its just another religion who has its good and bad followers like any other.

[Blessedbethegoddess]

I have been reading this thread, and I must say that this a way more interesting message board than the ones I am used to outside of MW. I just thought that I would add that when I converted to pagansim, it was very hard for me. I was raised Christian. In the same breath, that is the reason that I converted and my children will never know Jesus, as I was taught to know him. Do I think that Christianity is real... yeah. Do I follow it.... NOPE. I do not bash those that do, as I do not want to be bashed for being Pagan. BUT.... I will agree with a previous poster who said that one big problem with the christian faith, is that they are constantly trying to convert people into what they "need" to be. That.... and no offense to the christian followers, but there are WAY too many hipocrits out there that follow jesus. I beleive that Jesus was a real person, but he's not my god.

[fay]

If Christianity is false, then all religions are false.

ok i really dont understand this. please can you explain what you mean Aine?
thanks
blessed be

[fay]

No It is a way of controll. Yes there was a man called Jesus. But just a man! They are Pagans they just do'nt know it. Most of what they do is Pagan. All it has done is assimelated (spelling!) or forced its way in so to speek. I have a freind who is Born Agin and I just let her be It is her path If she wants to know something I will tell here the truth. That is the truth is the truth. it's not an opinon it's real history not biblical mithology. As hard as it may be to pople. I for one don't live in a lie.

ok, one thing i really dont like is people claiming that their path is the one true way and it seems to me that this is exactly what you are saying. you sound like some of the people i really dislike, claiming that you know 'the truth'. if i have misunderstood what you are saying then i am sorry, but you will have to explain to me what you mean.
i think that to say that christians are deluded pagans is rude and disrespectful to the followers of that religion.
blessed be

[IvyWitch]

To say there is no absolute truth is and absolute truth itself. *shrug*

[paganpixie]

I feel that for some people christianity is real. I my self have attended a christian church and had a good time. I made friends and meet others. Now as time went by I didnt keep those friends as to they didnt like my religion. Thats fine, I would never judge someone because of their religion or say it wasnt real. Having been on that end of the stick i know how it feels. So many people say that what i believe isnt real and thats fine. The freedom of religion means any religion so who am i to say whats real and whats not. If you beleive in things enough then they have power.

[samiaminsane]

True or false don't apply to religions (IMO). There are ideals in Christianity that I think are wonderful, and others I could do without. The same goes with every religion. Of course Christianity is a religion, just ask one of it's millions (billions?) of followers..... For every person who says Christianity is true, there will be another in the background, waving their hands wildly, screaming that it's false. So it goes with all religions, and most likely always will. There will always be arguments, there will always be religious wars, for we are gifted with the knowledge that there is something out there, but we are cursed with never truly knowing what it is. We must each find our own way. I couldn't even vote on the darned poll, after sitting here and mulling it over for some time. I guess there really are some questions that cannot be answered, at least by me.

[Vincent Verthaine]

All religions are true some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
Luckily,discordianism is an irreligion,so it is always TRUE.:hahugh:

[Thunder]

All religions are true some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
Luckily,discordianism is an irreligion,so it is always TRUE.:hahugh:

Sweet. :hahugh:

[merlo]

They're preachy over there.. Must be something to it. That religion, I mean.

[DoktorSick]

This a odd question.
What do they mean by real?
It's classified as a religion so i guess that makes
it a real religion.
I haven't read of to much evidence to support the concept
of a historical jesus.
And when it comes down to it christian is just a overrated
jewish doomsday cult.
What else to call a religion that obsessed with the end of the
world and what happens when you die.

[Greyharp]

I was a bit hasty. I voted before I read or thought about the question properly. I voted "not true", but I was thinking from a personal point of view.

I wasn't raised with a religion, but at 20 I became a fundamentalist, Pentecostal Christian and stayed that way for 12 years. Toward the end of that time I finally got honest with myself and had to admit that other religions were just as valid and "true" as Christianity. Other religions saw lives changed, prayers answered and miracles happen. To suggest that Christians received all this from a good god, whereas all other religions got it from an evil being is both arrogant and ignorant. Besides, no religion is able to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that it only way and the Truth.

At the same time I finally got honest with myself about all those things in the Bible that had been gnawing away at my logic for years - the inconsistencies, contradictions and outright errors. As has been mentioned in this thread, even the fact that Jesus ever existed rests on a paragraph written by a man who wasn't born during Jesus' lifetime. And even Christian scholars debate over the validity of Josephus comments on Jesus, some saying that parts of it didn't exist in the earliest of copies, but were added at a latter date by Christian copyists. The earliest copies of New Testament writings dated after Jesus was said to have died.

Having said that, I do believe Jesus existed, but like many things in history, the truth of that is now impossible to know. So once again, as has been mentioned in this thread, I think the original question was perhaps badly written or too basic. Personally I think Christian doctrine and the Bible is false, but Christianity is a true or real religion.

I have been a Wiccan now for six years and sincerely hope that we never go down the path of saying our religion is right and true, and all others are false.

[WiccanGoddess]

I believe all religions to be false. No religion is true. All religions are sanctifed and honest and pure, but not reality. I may be Pagan with the beliefs in a Goddess, but I don't follow them blindly or fully. I just can't. I have too many doubts about everything. And I see one who follows any religion fully is following a path blindly. Proof is scarce.

[Meadhbh]

Its a valid path for some people. If there was nothing to then there would not be as many christains as there are now. And even if Jesus isn't comming back to save the world or whatever what matters is the fact that the ideal comforts people. We can't say for sure that any one way is the right way so long as it gives people something to believe in, with in reason its a good thing.

[AngelicEnigma]

OK, what do you mean by real? I believe Jesus existed. I have no proof of that though. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. However I have no proof of that either. If we're all honest with our selves we'd see that nobody has any proof that any belief system is 100 percent true. But for most religion orgins, it is all "real" to some extent.

[Beowulf]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?

(edit) Due to some shortsighted persons, I would like everyone to please refer to this post (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1366001&postcount=137) before insulting me as a Christian or as anything else. Thank you.

?

Is that a serious question? Of course Christianity is a true religion. I'd like to hear anyone defend a position saying it isn't. And anyone saying that is no better than the fundamentalists asking the same quesion about us. I also believe Jesus was a real Jewish prophet, but not the son of God.

Beowulf~

[Rhisiart]

ARE THEY VALID? WELL DUHHHHHHHH!!!

Im mean they are getting the tax breaks and deductions arent they?

I wish my religion was valid....:sadman:

[Little Billy]

Christianity - the religion is real. It exists. This is undeniable. However, a better question might be "are their beliefs accurate"?

This I can answer. No, their beliefs are most likely NOT accurate, as most of their beliefs seem to be 180 degrees off of what the bible actually SAYS. Added to that the fact that the bible has been altered by the council of Nicea, translated a dozen times or so, and re-written by agenda-driven Saints...not to MENTION Paul of Tarsus's little additions, then how COULD their beliefs be accurate?

A "true Christian" is as common - IMO, of course - as an honest politician.

[WiccanGoddess]

?

Is that a serious question? Of course Christianity is a true religion. I'd like to hear anyone defend a position saying it isn't. And anyone saying that is no better than the fundamentalists asking the same quesion about us. I also believe Jesus was a real Jewish prophet, but not the son of God.

Beowulf~

Of course it's a true real religion, bu there is no proof that it is accurate . There is no proof that anyone listed within the Bible actually existed...in godly form, so to say.

[Rin Daemoko]

It's true. Christianity is a real religion.

[Tulip Tree]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?Based on your quote, I can't respond to your poll, Ron. Only because I can't decide whether you're wondering if pagans accept Christianity as a valid path, or if you're asking if pagans know that Jesus existed and yet still choose to reject him.

Christianity is a real 'religion' with all the bells and whistles, but I agreed wholeheartedly with WiccanGoddess when she said:
I believe all religions to be false. No religion is true. All religions are sanctifed and honest and pure, but not reality. I may be Pagan with the beliefs in a Goddess, but I don't follow them blindly or fully. I just can't. I have too many doubts about everything. And I see one who follows any religion fully is following a path blindly. Proof is scarce.

The only proof that Christians have that Jesus existed is in their feelings. The deeper you look for tangible evidence, the more elusive it becomes. Although, I have Christian friends that I hope will never look more deeply at their religion. They embrace Christianity in all the right ways: as something to motivate them to good and decent acts. They don't use Christianity as a shield to hide behind, as a judge's bench, or as a tool to manipulate people into their comfort zone. When I look at Christianity the way these friends do, I find Christianity to be a wonderful, beautiful religion.

[OnyxStar]

I believe all religions to be false. No religion is true. All religions are sanctifed and honest and pure, but not reality. I may be Pagan with the beliefs in a Goddess, but I don't follow them blindly or fully. I just can't. I have too many doubts about everything. And I see one who follows any religion fully is following a path blindly. Proof is scarce.

Exactly! I have a hard time fully accepting the goddess and stuff after (I feel) I was betrayed by Christianity. Its going to be a long time before I blindly follow anything, whether a faith or person.

I don't believe Jesus existed, because the only proof is the Bible, and I don't believe in that.

[Meabh23]

Do you belive Christianity is a true religion, ie. there is a G!d and there was a Jesus (etc) or not? (You can also vote to abstain.) Why?

(edit) Due to some shortsighted persons, I would like everyone to please refer to this post (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1366001&postcount=137) before insulting me as a Christian or as anything else. Thank you.

[edit edit] The above edit no longer fully applies. A year is a long time.

Why does have to be one way or the other?

I think Christianity is a true religion, meaning that it is a valid religion in its own right. But I also recognize other religions as valid too. This doesn't mean I have to convert to any of them. I can't say whether there was really a Jesus or not since there seems to be only written evidence and myths, but this doesn't invalidate the religion unless you take it literally. Likewise I think there are not only one god, but several. One of them happens to be the god of the Bible that Christians worship. But that's not my god.

Since I am Pagan, I rarely have to think about such things.

[LadyCelt]

I don't agree with certain peopel in Christianity who claim it in history but kill people who aren't Christian etc. I don't agree with all the dogma of certain sects. But, it is real. Jesus is real and was and is the son of the Lord to me.

And, there are peopel who are self righteous in every religion too.

[star_belfire]

I picked Abstain and here's why:

It might be a true religon but if you do your homework you'll see there have been "Jesus like" figures in history befroe he came along. Examples Mythra, Baccas, Hercules and possibly Persephone.

My veiw point is that every religion holds truths sometimes they're just harder to see.

I believe what I believe. Everyone is entilted to believe what they want. If you truly follow your religion then you get the outcome that you deserve.

I can't think of any better way to say it then how people before me have said it. I think its a true religion but its not for me.

[Xentor]

I agree with Little Billy: Christianity is real. It exists and is the only true path for lots of people. They use it for very real actions.

I have been Catholic. It stopped working for me about 2.5 decades ago.

[Infinite Grey]

I don't believe Jesus existed, because the only proof is the Bible, and I don't believe in that.

There is evidence besides the bible... the Romans recorded the early Christians as a cult and that a man named Jesus founded it. There is supposed physical evidence as well... No, Jesus existed all right, but whether or not he was the son of God or not can never be proven nor disproved... that is the matter of faith

[beachj]

Well let's see here now...
1: I'm not going to insult anyone for their descision to be christian or not christian. Or pagan or whatever ealse. (ok maybe if they make up their own relgion for tax benifits)

Anyways,
There are two possibilities
1: Christian is not true: In this case, after we all die, or the end of the world comes. Seeing as the sun will EVENTAULLY expand to engulf the earht as it runs out of Hydrogen and begins to 'burn' helieum. Christians and non-christians will go to the afterlife, where the christians although disapointed about not going to heaven, relieved that they are not in hell.

2: Christian is true: In this case, after we all die, or the end of the world comes as its writen in the scriptures: Christians will go to heaven, while non-christians go to hell.

My point:
The nature of christiananty seems that christians are safe either way, whereas nonchristians have a 50-50 chance.

[Cain]

Thats Pascal's Wager. Not only does it fail to take into account other religions possibly being true (Judaism, Islam, Wicca etc) its boring. No one takes a safe bet, because then there is no risk.

[Infinite Grey]

Thats Pascal's Wager. Not only does it fail to take into account other religions possibly being true (Judaism, Islam, Wicca etc) its boring. No one takes a safe bet, because then there is no risk.


I think you missed the point there :lol:

[Little Billy]

I don't believe Jesus existed, because the only proof is the Bible, and I don't believe in that.

I believe he exists...I just think that he isn't whom most Christians are actually praying to.