Just stop it!

[SilentDreams]

I'm so sick of people using the term Witch and Wiccan like they're the same thing. They aren't the same thing. I know some witches who would be outraged if they were to be refered to as Wiccans. I know many Wiccans who often times correct people who use Witch and Wicca as if they are the same thing. If anytyhing the small fact that the term Witch came ages before the term Wicca should give some proof that they arent' the same thing.

[semi]

I have always used the terms interchangeably. But I know almost nothing about Wicca. Can you explain the difference so that I don't offend anyone in the future?

[Faeawyn]

Wicca is a religion. Witch is not based on any religious beliefs. It would be like referring to all Christians as Baptists....they're not. Does that make sense?

[charmedkisses1]

or like saying all christians are catholics :D

[Lunacie]

Gerald Gardner used the two names interchangably when he created his new religion. And so did his followers until sometime in the late 70's (I think). Some people still do. I understand why this split occured but I don't agree with it. Nowadays there are a lot of Wiccans who don't understand the importance of magic in WiccaCraft.

Why does it offend you so much?

[Athena-Nadine]

I'd be happy if people would stop using "Pagan" and "Wiccan" interchangeably.

[Faeawyn]

Well, I'm not Wiccan....but I don't consider it an insult if someone assumes I am. I'm actually a Christian Witch....:D

[Calen]

I'd be happy if people would stop using "Pagan" and "Wiccan" interchangeably.

Yeah, that would bother me more than the Witch/Wiccan thing. While I don't think it is accurate to use the terms interchangably, that's always going to happen, mostly because a lot of Wiccans are Witches too.

[*GrumpButt*]

I'd be happy if people would stop using "Pagan" and "Wiccan" interchangeably.

Ohhhh yesssss...
That is one of my pet peeves lol! :hehehehe:

[SilentDreams]

I'd be happy if people would stop using "Pagan" and "Wiccan" interchangeably.

Yes! That really pisses me off.

Why make new terms if you can't seperate them from others?

[semi]

Thank you, Faeawyn and charmedkisses1 for beating sense into me. I understand now.

[ShaDowElf]

My definitions (please tell me if I have it wrong)

Pagan - someone who follows a nature-based religion - many different paths to chose from.

Witch - someone who practices witchcraft - can be many different paths.

Wiccan - someone who follows the Wiccan religion - may or may not practice witchcraft and be a witch.

Me - I'm a pagan, researching/learning witchcraft but I don't yet consider myself a witch - I also don't like the general misconceptions attached to the word from non-pagans.

Just my 2 cents.

[Romani Vixen]

witch and witchcraft have to do with the magical arts.

Wicca is a religion... a subset of Paganism.

I'm Pagan, not Wiccan, and a witch. I have a friend who's Pagan, but not a witch (she just doesn't... **shrug**) I have friends, Faeawyn and Aine of the Fey amongst them, who are Christian by faith, but who also practice magic.... witches. :D

[Lunacie]

There are a lot of Wiccans who believe that in order to practice Wicca one must believe in and practice magic and many other forms of the Craft. Why do some insist that it must be in a whole separate category?


Just stop insisting that they CAN'T be the same, eh? :hrmm:

[Mau]

It doesn't bother Wiccans, ones that practice witchcraft at least. But for some of us Witches, it gets kind of frustrating to have everyone assume we're Wiccan...we're not.

[Lunacie]

It doesn't bother Wiccans, ones that practice witchcraft at least. But for some of us Witches, it gets kind of frustrating to have everyone assume we're Wiccan...we're not.I've heard it also gets frustrating to have so many assume that if you're Pagan you're a Wiccan. Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the U.S.A. and maybe even in the world. Wicca is getting more press than general Paganism or Witchcraft. I try to educate folks whenever I'm presented with the chance that Witches are not always Wiccan, and Pagans are not always Wiccan.

The way the religion was designed, Wiccans ARE Witches.

Disclaimer: for those who have studied and really would rather practice Wicca sans Witchcraft, I'm fine with that. It gets kind of frustrating to have so many insist that the two are completely separate.

[Joshua]

I explain (to mundanes who care to listen) that Wicca is the rough equivalent of the Catholic Church of the pagan community, whereas other belief systems such as Asatru, druidry, etc, are the equivalent of the protestant systems. I'm very careful to correct people that Wicca and witch are not synonymous terms.

[MorningDove030202]

Wicca is a religion. Witch is not based on any religious beliefs. It would be like referring to all Christians as Baptists....they're not. Does that make sense?

This is not always so... there are non Wiccan Witch groups that are religious. They just don't include Gardner in their sources. One example is here: http://ravening.co.uk/

Dove

[Mau]

I've heard it also gets frustrating to have so many assume that if you're Pagan you're a Wiccan. Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the U.S.A. and maybe even in the world. Wicca is getting more press than general Paganism or Witchcraft. I try to educate folks whenever I'm presented with the chance that Witches are not always Wiccan, and Pagans are not always Wiccan.

The way the religion was designed, Wiccans ARE Witches.

Disclaimer: for those who have studied and really would rather practice Wicca sans Witchcraft, I'm fine with that. It gets kind of frustrating to have so many insist that the two are completely separate.

It all boils down to All Wiccans are Witches,
but not all Witches are Wiccan (Witch can be replaced with Pagan as well;) )

[nvrgnabok07]

Gerald Gardner used the two names interchangably when he created his new religion. And so did his followers until sometime in the late 70's (I think). Some people still do. I understand why this split occured but I don't agree with it. Nowadays there are a lot of Wiccans who don't understand the importance of magic in WiccaCraft.

Why does it offend you so much?


I def. agree with that last question. Why does it offend you so much? You do what you do, they do what they do. Own beliefs, own way of saying things. I saw tomatoes..you say tomatoes...(wow..it def. doesn't seem the same spelled out...) If they want to use wiccan and witch interchangabley, they're deal not yours. and btw... Wiccans are witches too! So maybe that's what they're referring to sometimes...

[Blair]

The only problem I see is when some Wiccans go around saying things like, "All Witches believe in harming none" or "All Witches follow the Rede" or any other "All Witches believe" in such and such Wiccan practice. If it wasn't for that fact I could maybe ignore the people who use it interchangably. And I definitely agree with the thought that Pagans should definitely not be automatically assumed to be Wiccan.

[Gede]

MM~
I think the offence comes from the implication that if you identify as a Witch than most of the public who are at least partially educated in such matters will immediately categorise you as Wiccan, and that does tend to happen nowadays.

When Gardner first came across Witchcraft he came across a specific variant of its practices, codes and customs and thus the term 'Wica' was connected with this and they became almost interchangable, as Gardner had never known of any other style of Craft. He developed a cohesive religion from the fragmentary pieces of lore and ritual he acquired through his initiation into the New Forest Coven (or so it is said) and then drew inspiration from a multiplicity of sources and occult organisations both past and present to form a religion that was based on one's relationship with Magick, but also infused with Pagan concepts in deity, ritual and belief. Nowadays we know the history and basic circumstance of the development and revival of Wicca, however we also know that it is not the only path and that Witchcraft is not bound to its structures, as it is a spirituality that stretches far beyond the collaboration of such a notion as Wicca. Therefore the terms are different. And in regards to Paganism well I think we've pretty much covered its significance.

I am a Witch and I am Pagan. I however am not Wiccan, despite my interest in learning about it and studying its history and its place in our vast community today. LOL! My self-initation came out of a $10 Spellbook and never mentioned the word Wicca at all, it simply referred to becoming a Witch. Though I have been initiated into an Eclectic Wiccan Coven in the past.

Yes perhaps all Wiccans are Witches (though I have encountered some on here who would say otherwise), but this 'fact' does not imply that the terms are necessarily synonymous, they are quite different, though they do intertwine and can in some cases support each other.

Namaste, Gede...

[Mau]

The only problem I see is when some Wiccans go around saying things like, "All Witches believe in harming none" or "All Witches follow the Rede" or any other "All Witches believe" in such and such Wiccan practice. If it wasn't for that fact I could maybe ignore the people who use it interchangably. And I definitely agree with the thought that Pagans should definitely not be automatically assumed to be Wiccan.
_twohorns_

[RubyRose]

I know the difference between Witch and Wiccan. I'm Wiccan, but don't consider myself a Witch. I do find myself however, leaning towards a more druidic path, so I now tend to use Pagan a lot more to describe my path a bit more than I do Wiccan. But I still think of my path at the moment as being Wiccan. Cause while my interest is steering towards druidry, I have yet to change my current practices. Make sense? I hope so.

[halfwaynowhere]

if this was already stated, i'm sorry.
A witch is one who practices magic(k)... Wicca is a religion involving witchcraft, but its not the same thing.

[StephanieAine]

or like saying all christians are catholics :D
Oh, if I could only give you another karma touch for that comment!

**BLESS you** for that!

[Temptation]

I'm so sick of people using the term Witch and Wiccan like they're the same thing. They aren't the same thing. I know some witches who would be outraged if they were to be refered to as Wiccans. I know many Wiccans who often times correct people who use Witch and Wicca as if they are the same thing. If anytyhing the small fact that the term Witch came ages before the term Wicca should give some proof that they arent' the same thing.

I SO agree with you.

I'm a witch but most definitely NOT a Wiccan. I don't worship any Deity in any way,
shape or form. I don't believe in the Threefold Law and I don't do rituals, cast circles
or call to the Elements or the Guardians or whatever it is that Wiccans invoke.

I do like the "An' it harm none do as thou wilt" part, though. I like that very much
and try to apply it whenever I do magic. Because, even though I don't believe
whatever you do comes back threefold, I do believe that what goes around comes around.

The differences between nonWiccan witches and Wiccan witches are huge.
Wicca is a Religion with a set of Deities, rules and rituals.
Witchcraft is an ancient heritage and, for me, a way of life passed on to me by my Gran. :heartthro

[misschief]

I know some witches who would be outraged if they were to be refered to as Wiccans.i would be one of those.

edited later:
the reason i find it offensive is mosty because more than half of my practices are literally ancient. wicca is not. it is new, regardless of how many fluffy teens (no offense to anyone implied) like to say it's an ancient path. it's not. we all know that. if someone who has never ever once been exposed to such a thing were to say 'oh you're wiccan'.. ok, i wouldn't flip out. but that is very rare today.. and i do get infuriated with people asking me dumb(imo) questions. if i wanted people to be informed, i would tell them about it.my craft is one of secrecy, and i will not compromise that just to explain why i'm not wiccan. witch is not equal to wiccan. period.

sorry for the angry tone, it's not intentional... just blunt and to the point as usual. no offense meant to anyone.:hearthear

[misschief]

bump

[MorningDove030202]

Why can't we just all be Witches? Or is the real problem revolve around one group feeling that the other realy arn't "Real Witches"?

Honestly I do not believe there is a historical Pagan Witch Religion dateing to the "Burning Times" or beyond. I do think there were people intune with nature, or with magick, but I don't think it truely expressed itself as a full religion until the 19th century. Weither or not your practice includeds Gardner as a source is realy irrellevant to me. If you are a moral person, who is responsible for your own actions, who can admit when a misake is made, and accpet an apology and forgive another when others make mistakes, is much more relavent to me than weither you site Gardner or not. Why have Us vs Them when we can have "We Witches"?

Maybe the argument revolves around Witchcraft as a religion vs witchcraft the practice without the religion?

Dove

[Mau]

Why can't we just all be Witches? Or is the real problem revolve around one group feeling that the other realy arn't "Real Witches"?

Honestly I do not believe there is a historical Pagan Witch Religion dateing to the "Burning Times" or beyond. I do think there were people intune with nature, or with magick, but I don't think it truely expressed itself as a full religion until the 19th century. Weither or not your practice includeds Gardner as a source is realy irrellevant to me. If you are a moral person, who is responsible for your own actions, who can admit when a misake is made, and accpet an apology and forgive another when others make mistakes, is much more relavent to me than weither you site Gardner or not. Why have Us vs Them when we can have "We Witches"?

Maybe the argument revolves around Witchcraft as a religion vs witchcraft the practice without the religion?

Dove


Great thoughts. But the thing is...there is a difference. I don't call on the corners, I don't have an alter, I dont' cast a circle, I dont' dedicate myself to any Gods/Goddesses, I don't follow the Wiccan Rede, I dont' go by a Wiccan name, etc etc etc. Wicca is a religion, it isn't just being a witch.
My being a witch is a craft, and basically a spirituality, and it is different than what many other witches do/believe. My witchcraft isn't a religion, or affiliated with a religion. Witchcraft isn't a religion....but Wicca is. THere are no rules of witchcraft, I follow none. I believe in Fate, but that's about it. What witchcraft I do is not determined be a Rede or law...it is determined upon my own personal ethics and morals, and my thoughts on Fate.
On a personal note..I don't like being assumed Wiccan because..to me, it somewhat cheapens what I do. Yeah, I know..that's mean. But the thing is....what I do and base my craft in isnt' something from the 60s.

[DebLipp]

When Wicca was introduced to the world, as Lunacie said, it was called Witchcraft, and the two words were used interchangeably. This did NOT change in the 1970s, as Lunacie guesses, but in the 21st Century. It is only in the past 3 or 4 years that I have seen people be really focused on the difference, and that non-Wiccan Witches have been a signficant, visible, and vocal part of the Pagan community. (Not saying no witches were significant before that, but the buzz hadn't built.)

As a Wiccan, I was taught that an initate could call herself/himself a Witch. Now, I am clearly both a Wiccan and a Witch, and all of the thousands of people who were taught in the sort of way I was taught are too. It is not incorrect to call myself a Witch, because magic is an inherent part of Wicca, and while not every Wiccan practices magic, it is part of the package. (Sort of like, not every married couple has sex, but it is still considered an inherent part of married life.)

Like a lot of people, I have learned to be careful in my language and make this distinction. But it is important to remember, before you get all hot under the collar and furious at the ignorance of the world, that making this distinction is quite a new thing, and of course books, including excellent books, that were written more than 5 or 10 years ago will probably not bother to belabor the point. Language and ideas change slowly in part because older books stay in print and in libraries, and so older ideas just don't go POOF and vanish.

So it seems to me inappropriate to get all furious that not everyone is on such a new bandwagon. You'd do better to explain, nicely and calmy.

[misschief]

actually, i'm sure this sounds hot-headed, obnoxious, and whatever term you guys would like to use, i don't care.. but i find it better to not explain at all. *shrug* i'm sensitive about it, and i don't like it. i'd rather just walk away from whoever the conversation might be with, and forget about it. that's not to say i've never explained, i'll only do it if i think they'll listen, which isn't often.
i love how people speculate on the age of witchcraft. regardless of name, people have done it in one form or another virtually forever. think about it.
will a jew mind being called a pagan? probably. why? because they are two different things.

[Seren_]

It is only in the past 3 or 4 years that I have seen people be really focused on the difference, and that non-Wiccan Witches have been a signficant, visible, and vocal part of the Pagan community. (Not saying no witches were significant before that, but the buzz hadn't built.)

I've always thought that this change was a reaction to Hutton's Triumph of the Moon, in part. I have to say that most Wiccan's I speak to over here - perhaps because they are Gardnerian/Alexandrian as they mostly are round here - still refer to it as the "Olde Religion", or "The Religion of Witchcraft". Gardner himself never publicly called it Wicca - to him it was in vague terms of "we of the Wica" or some such...I believe it was someone else who coined the term Wiccan (someone please correct me if I'm wrong...)?


As a Wiccan, I was taught that an initate could call herself/himself a Witch.

In fact, the label "Witch" is implicit in many publicly available initiation rites. IIRC?


...and while not every Wiccan practices magic, it is part of the package. (Sort of like, not every married couple has sex, but it is still considered an inherent part of married life.)

And yet (purely as an observation) as Tyrrhenus points out on another thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=1312596#post1312596), there is something of an academic distinction between witchcraft and magic, for a start...which muddies the waters somewhat.

For many, the label of "witch" implies certain things...like "Wiccan" ... or someone who practices "magic"...etc. Not necessarily exclusively, of course. Are any of these definitions adequate? All of these various labels imply certain things - but yet they are not necessarily the be all and end all of definition...we all have our own interpretations on meanings, otherwise we wouldn't misunderstand other people so often, no? :)

For some people, the Witch=Wiccan equation is quite proper. But it is not mutually exclusive. I would say this in itself is no disrespect to other paths that include Witchcraft in their practices. But the blind assumption that all Wicca is Witchcraft is ignorant of the fact that a) this is not always true in Wicca, and b) not all Witches are Wiccans. From what I've seen, these assumptions don't happen often here on MW, at least. But either way, it is a problem for both non-Wiccans, and some Wiccans.

As a former Wiccan (brought up in the Wicca=Witchcraft, but having read TOTM, if you get me), I would say I still study and (occasionally) practise withcraft and magic. But I'm no Wiccan anymore, even though I'm initiated into it. To claim such would be offensive to my own beliefs, and other Wiccans.

[DebLipp]

I've always thought that this change was a reaction to Hutton's Triumph of the Moon, in part. I have to say that most Wiccan's I speak to over here - perhaps because they are Gardnerian/Alexandrian as they mostly are round here - still refer to it as the "Olde Religion", or "The Religion of Witchcraft". Gardner himself never publicly called it Wicca - to him it was in vague terms of "we of the Wica" or some such...I believe it was someone else who coined the term Wiccan (someone please correct me if I'm wrong...)?
Indeed, Triumph of the Moon would match my dating; published in 1999, it would take a year or two to become common parlance...

And Gardner mostly used "Witches" or "The Wica" (he sometimes used one c, sometimes two, a rather bad speller). I don't know who coined "Wiccan," my ears peg it as American.


In fact, the label "Witch" is implicit in many publicly available initiation rites. IIRC?
Yes, you become a witch upon initiation in many rites published on the Web.


And yet (purely as an observation) as Tyrrhenus points out on another thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=1312596#post1312596), there is something of an academic distinction between witchcraft and magic, for a start...which muddies the waters somewhat.
Interesting! I'll accept the distinction and you may consider my description to mean "spellcraft" rather than "magic."

[~Anamorata~]

I don't see why it should matter how someone uses those words...as long as YOU know the difference, and THEY know the difference. I'm Osirian Wiccan, but I will also use the word Witch...in the Temple, we are usually known as a Weheeta, or Prophetess...and, the term actually means witch in Coptic Egyptian. So, I think it should be up to the person, as to what they want to call themselves, and we have no right to say otherwise. Just my opinion, not to offend anyone.

[Lunacie]

I first became aware of people proclaiming the schism between Witchcraft and Wicca in late 1999 or early 2000, although I did not hear anything about Hutton's TofM until at least a year later. I think there were seeds of dissatisfaction long before that or it wouldn't have caught fire so explosively.

I'm tired of the bad feelings between those who call themselves Witches and those who are called Wiccans. But mostly I'm sad because the fall-out from this seems to be that many new Wiccans don't see the importance of incorporating Witchcraft into Wicca. :awwman:

[WhiteRavenBran]

Maybe I'm just more laid back than some...but if somebody calls me Wiccan (which I don't consider myself to be) I may deny it, but I don't get upset or angry with them or think of them as ignorant. I do consider myself a witch and am in no way offended by that term, but most people in the pagan community just use the word wiccan to define anybody who practices witchcraft (and I realize that many wiccans do not). But why does everybody get all jumpy about it? If they call you that, correct them and move on...what's the use of getting all huffy-puffy about it? I guess I'm just tired of this argument - is anybody else?

[-Ember]

Usually those I've meet who have a problem with it are:

1) Believers in secret societies who want an unbroken line (must avoid Gardner)

2) Believers in light and joy and the latest LLewyllen book.... must avoid serious/dark words/ideas like witch. "Public Image" is often a mantra.

3) Believers in "I happen to appreciate serious and can deal with the dark, no way do I want to deal with #2 there... they are annoying."

4) Mirror of #2... "hmm... who can I shock today....."

I'll confess to some of #3.... I am sick of certain "wiccans", especially the dictadorial ones. "Wicca is __________, and all is __________, and if you disagree you are a fascist." On the other hand, many of those who have the most right to the word (Alexandrians/Gardnarians/BTW's... closest to what it first meant) I have no problems with... they just aren't too far off what my trad does (that being why we stole so much of their stuff ;)) But I am really tired of being called a "Fundie Witch" because I don't follow some mainstream "Wiccan" beliefs and don't feel like converting to them.

There are self-proclaimed wiccans that have made enough of a bad impression on me that the word itself is distasteful.

[MorningDove030202]

Great thoughts. But the thing is...there is a difference. I don't call on the corners, I don't have an alter, I dont' cast a circle, I dont' dedicate myself to any Gods/Goddesses, I don't follow the Wiccan Rede, I dont' go by a Wiccan name, etc etc etc. Wicca is a religion, it isn't just being a witch.
My being a witch is a craft, and basically a spirituality, and it is different than what many other witches do/believe. My witchcraft isn't a religion, or affiliated with a religion. Witchcraft isn't a religion....but Wicca is. THere are no rules of witchcraft, I follow none. I believe in Fate, but that's about it. What witchcraft I do is not determined be a Rede or law...it is determined upon my own personal ethics and morals, and my thoughts on Fate.
On a personal note..I don't like being assumed Wiccan because..to me, it somewhat cheapens what I do. Yeah, I know..that's mean. But the thing is....what I do and base my craft in isnt' something from the 60s.

What I'm hearing from your post is that Wiccans arn't realy practicing Witchcraft because you define Witchcraft as NOT being a religion. Can't there be room for both under the title Witchcraft? Here is an idea (and I'm trying to be constructive here! :) Since it bothers you so much to be assumed to be Wiccan, why don't you pick a different lable? You could be a Wizard, Sorceror (sp?) or Mage? Those words don't get mixed up with Wicca, at least not in my mind, and they don't stir up religious ideas either....

Just a suggestion...
Dove

[Mau]

What I'm hearing from your post is that Wiccans arn't realy practicing Witchcraft because you define Witchcraft as NOT being a religion. Can't there be room for both under the title Witchcraft? Here is an idea (and I'm trying to be constructive here! :) Since it bothers you so much to be assumed to be Wiccan, why don't you pick a different lable? You could be a Wizard, Sorceror (sp?) or Mage? Those words don't get mixed up with Wicca, at least not in my mind, and they don't stir up religious ideas either....

Just a suggestion...
Dove

Oh no, I don't mean they aren't really practicing witchcraft...you'll see in another post of mine in this thread I say 'All Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan.'. Wicca is a religion....and they use witchcraft in that religion. I use witchcraft without that religion, which is the difference. And I certainly wouldn't change what I call myself so that others who don't know the difference won't confuse it. I'm usually not snippy about making the destinction for people. It can be hard when dealing with people who have no knowledge on the subject..but I do what I can, nicely. I think it bothers me most when it comes from people within the pagan community, who you wouldn't assume you'd have to explain the difference to...and as rude as that just sounded, it wasn't meant to come out that way..but I can't think of any other words to use to make it sound better :wtf:

[MorningDove030202]

Oh, ok, I guess I misunderstood your post. I think that most of the books that are still read today still use Wicca and Witch interchaingably and that it's no longer correct. Perhapse when the authors write the next edition of their books, they will say something about not all witches are wiccan, and that will help ou frustrated folks like yourself.

Still I say Witches Unite!

Dove