Paganism Versus Christianity

[Kalamath_Timegod]

Hey all. I have a question for you. My friend and I got into a 3 hour conversation last night about religion. He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth. Now I was trying to prove to him that paganism was a good religion. But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700. So I want to know if any of you can give me information on how old paganism is and any information that supports paganism in any way shape or form.

[Faeawyn]

Well...I may be corrected because I'm not certain....but I don't think paganism is actually a "religion". Pagans were the country folk that lived too far outside the village to be quickly converted to Christianity. So basically they were considered ignorant of Christian ways and barbaric because they still worshiped old Gods.
Try googling Paganism on the internet. You'll find tons of stuff there :)

[barlitone]

Hey all. I have a question for you. My friend and I got into a 3 hour conversation last night about religion. He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth. Now I was trying to prove to him that paganism was a good religion. But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700. So I want to know if any of you can give me information on how old paganism is and any information that supports paganism in any way shape or form.

If he says things like "His word is Truth," then you will not convince him otherwise, and remember that the "Word" is the "Bible," and in that book, we don't fare too well. On this one, maybe it's best to agree to disagree.

[Phoenix Blue]

But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700.
Do you have any proof for this assertion? The majority of modern Paganism evolved from Wicca, which was established in the 20th century.

[Mad Dame]

Hey all. I have a question for you. My friend and I got into a 3 hour conversation last night about religion. He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth. Now I was trying to prove to him that paganism was a good religion. But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700. So I want to know if any of you can give me information on how old paganism is and any information that supports paganism in any way shape or form.

I don't beleive you should have to prove anything. A conversation on religion is great but unfortunatley paganism is an umbrella religion, it encompasses many earthy based belief's that are similar under one name. Alot of the old ways you would be describing would have been passed down generation to generation verbally, such as herb lore and what God/dess is who etc, there isnt much written about paganism in the old times because it wasn't really called that and the people who's beliefs fall under that catergory were more than likely illiterate.

and to all those who know more than me, please, feel free to poke holes in my theory :D

[Aidron]

Do you have any proof for this assertion? The majority of modern Paganism evolved from Wicca, which was established in the 20th century.


Oh nonsense. I follow a super secret ancient religion that started on a mystical isle, thank-you-very-much. ;)

[lovemy1dane]

I agree with the poster who said it is best to agree to disgree. If your friend is that diehard, then the Goddess herself as well as Johavah could come down and tell your friend he is wrong and he STILL would not change his mind. No offence to your friend, but that has been my experience when they start saying their religion is the truth.( and that does not mean only x-tians ,but anyone who does not allow the possibility of "truth" of other beliefs)

[Marchosias]

He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth.

Ask him to prove it.

[Mau]

Firstly, paganism isn't a religion itself. It's a compilation of various belief systems, spiritualities, and religions. Paganism is an umbrella term. But you can look into Pagan religions that pre-date Christianity by far. You can go into Ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Druids, etc etc etc. Of course..before the rise of xtianity, they weren't called Pagan religions ;)

And Phoenix_Blue, I actually disagree. There are people, like me..who come from a family who has been following Pagan belief systems since way before Wicca. And I wasn't aware the Buddhism came from Wicca either :p

[Mau]

OH YEAH! Found the site I was looking for....this one ROCKS http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

Read it, there are tons of pages and info. But be prepared, if you use any of this in debating your friend..they may get VERY defensive and pi$$ed off.

[MorningDove030202]

In reference to Wicca, which is the type of Paganism I know the most about:

It's not ancient at all, it's very much modern and assembled from many sources by G. Gardner. If you want to know the entire story read Triumph of the Moon. Anyway, in reguards to your Christian friend, since he does take the bible as God's litteral word, I would remind him of these things:


Jesus did not write the bible
Mankind is falable
and so the bible is not infalable
Jesus says to Love your neighbor and that means ANY neighbor
Where your soul goes when you die is none of his buisness


As far as proving that Paganism has morals... I can only speak for Wicca, and we strive to "Harm none". And we have consequences for our actions, the three fold law....

Agreeing to disagree would probably be best, and you can always let him "win" by saying that you have the "right to be wrong."

Dove

[Tullip Troll]

It s hard to fight those battles...

I would stick to the the History of Christianity(and all the flws that come with it, making it no more less truthful then a pagan path) ...but really do you need to prove him wrong...Does there have to be a right or wrong here...

For Christians their way is the only way all other ways are false...so you can't fight that...you can cause someone doubt about their faith but then you have to ask yourself if you really want to ruin someones faith...if they are happy...

As far as Pagans go...and there are so many kinds....you would have to show the good side and where it comes from in a positive light...also point to whats common and shared...Holidays...many Christians do not know that their holidays and celebrations come from a pagan heritage...many pagans do not know that the Bible wasn't written as a book(I was surprised at how many)...many need to understand that we do not(at least most) ackowledge Satan...Pagans are not opposite of Christianity but rather another way.


Hope it helps...Ive had that arguement way to many times...when both sides are right noone can be wrong.

Penny

[semi]

I declare that the word of my god is the absolute truth. That means your friend is wrong. Now prove me wrong. And it doesn't matter if I worship Mickey Mouse. Prove me wrong.

New young religions, like anything that originated within the last 2000 years or so, often go hand in hand with naivety, overconfidence, an absolute absence of common sense, and blind faith. Pat your friend on the head and tell him to go play in the yard.

[Rubber_Piggy]

Hey all. I have a question for you. My friend and I got into a 3 hour conversation last night about religion. He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth. Now I was trying to prove to him that paganism was a good religion. But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700. So I want to know if any of you can give me information on how old paganism is and any information that supports paganism in any way shape or form.

I don't think you have anything to prove, so God's word is Truth, to him perhaps and from his persepctive. Religion is about faith and belief, if you don't belive that God's word is Truth then, for you, it's not.

In my experience christianity is a very close minded faith, they typically belive that their path is the only correct one (often to the exclsion of other christian paths as well) and because they belive in hell this means everyone else is damned. This is the oposite to the typical pagan views of all paths being valid paths to the same goal. (my Uncle make reference to TV channels, you worship through channel 5 and I through channel 22, but we both worship it). This means that christians have to prove that they are right and everyone else is wrong, where as someone with an open-faith, accepts that the other guy is write as well, just a difference view.

I love playing mind games with christians when they try to convert me/prove me wrong, it's even more fun when you know more about there' texts than they do :)

You will find that because of the 'everyone else is damned' clause christians will adamnatly try to 'save' everyone close to them (family, bf/gf, etc). If this person is very close to you you may never here then end of this, unless you convert of course. :(

[charmedkisses1]

Let your friend think what he wants. Why does it really matter? No religion (and, paganism is a religion if you think about it) is more important than the next.

[Aidron]

(and, paganism is a religion if you think about it)


No, it's not. Paganism is a grouping of many spiritual paths. A religion is defined as a specific tradition with its own unique dogma. Paganism does not qualify as a religion.

[Tangerines]

Jesus did not write the bible


But it is a matter of dogma that God wrote the Bible through man.

[Tangerines]

New young religions, like anything that originated within the last 2000 years or so, often go hand in hand with naivety, overconfidence, an absolute absence of common sense, and blind faith. Pat your friend on the head and tell him to go play in the yard.

Or ones that are about a century old? ;)

Dismissing someone's religious beliefs as "blind faith" is pretty insulting, actually, and 2000 years is far from "new" or "young". Not as old as other religions. "Newer" than other faiths, but certainly not new.

[semi]

Tangerines, you're funny. You're really coming after me tonight, huh? Ok.

2000 is young for a religion when compared to other religions that have been around for many thousands of years.

I didn't aim my comments at anyone specific, so there is no intentional insult. I respect any religion that values spiritual development over words and interpretations of words and "laws". If I insulted you because you feel that you have blind faith, I apologize.

And what is this religion you are refering to that is about a century old? I will presume it is a personal attack against me. Bring it, baby, come on.

[Tangerines]

2000 isn't young considering the average human life span during most of that time tended to hover around forty years.

No, it wasn't a personal attack against you. It was a chiding to those in general who tout New Age faiths as being umpteen thousand years old.


If I insulted you because you feel that you have blind faith, I apologize.

Masking insults as apologies is extremely immature. And no, you really did insult an entire group of people by calling their faith "blind faith". And by your wording, e.g. the "pat on the head" comment, yes, you did do it intentionally, and now you're mad because someone called you on it. Furthermore, you go on to imply that you don't respect a religion with codified laws or "words". Well, that's plainly an insult aimed at followers of the Bible. Could it be that they feel that these words and laws happen to promote the development of spiritual values? By Jove, I may be onto something. So before you go insulting and announcing your disrespect, mayhaps you should gain some understanding.

[semi]

I'm not mad at all. I'm amused by this entire thing with you. I appreciate it.

And I stand by what i said. Anyone who bases their beliefs on blind faith deserves a condescending "pat on the head" and I hope that they will wake up and actively pursue knowledge instead of feeding on whatever is given to them.

Also, as I said, I respect spiritual development over words and laws. If you interpret this as disrespect for religions based on words and laws, that is your personal interpretation. You can make all the implications you want, it doesn't change what I actually said.

You may want to stop being so reflxively defensive and think about what you say. By Jove.

I'm going to bed soon. Anything else?

[Tangerines]

It's not a "personal interpretation". It's what you said being drawn to its logical conclusion.

Reflexively defensive? No. Defensive against people who feel the need to proudly display their lack of respect for another's faith? Yes. I was under the impressiont hat that was the rule on this site, now. ;)

You may want to think before you speak, in the future, and re-examine your views on the subject of respect.

[semi]

You are truly very funny. Really, I appreciate it.

But I'm done now. Have a good night. Love and hugs to you. Thank you for the entertainment.

[Tangerines]

The rude and condescending attitude will be taken into account in the future. Thank you for showing your true colours.

[SilentDreams]

First off let me say that its not "paganism vs. christianity". This is not a battle, they are religions. Paganism btw as some have said is not just one religion, its also a umbrella term that several religions fall under. Now a simple solution to this problem is to say this "I understand you have beliefs that differ from mine, I know that when it comes to religion we will never see eye too eye. So lets just drop it and agree too disagree."

[Djiril]

I agree with the people who said that you don't have to prove anything.
He's the one who claims to know the "ultimate Truth," so the burden of proof is on him.

[Pan]

Hey all. I have a question for you. My friend and I got into a 3 hour conversation last night about religion. He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth. Now I was trying to prove to him that paganism was a good religion. But I couldn't because I realized that all information that was passed down verbully about Paganism was burned during the years of 1100-1700. So I want to know if any of you can give me information on how old paganism is and any information that supports paganism in any way shape or form.

Why does it have to be "versus"?

[Muireannach]

I don't see religions as something that you put in a boxing ring...

You find a path that works for you and if it gives you answers that you find credible and enlighten you than that's great. Christianity doesn't work for some but it does work for others. I feel no desire to discredit the faiths of other's in an attempt to boost up or attempt to validate my own. Spirituality is personal....but sadly has become political.

[înnerpoînt]

Why does it have to be "versus"?
That was my first thought when I started reading this thread, too. :confused: Why should any faith, or set of faiths, be considered 'against' another?

[Rainlily]

You'd be better off banging your head against a wall then to try and argue with a die hard christian about religion. Trust me, been there, done that. I remember once I argued for weeks with a fundamentalist over halloween and it's origins. She believed all that scare literature some chrisitans put out every year about halloween and no matter what I said, or how I backed up my info she wouldn't budge. I must have gaven her 2 dozen links to sites that backed me up but she still held on. Trust me save yourself from a whole lot of frustration.....

[Xentor]

New young religions, like anything that originated within the last 2000 years or so, often go hand in hand with naivety, overconfidence, an absolute absence of common sense, and blind faith.

I dare you to back up that statement with some repsectable sources.

[misschief]

Why does it have to be "versus"?well, quite frankly, if you live in the town i live in... it's a competition.. all day, every day. there is no unity here. this place is filled with christian fundies, and there's just no way around it. i guess it depends on what you deal with every day, whether or not you would use 'versus'.. i personally, would.

[ap Dafydd]

That was my first thought when I started reading this thread, too. Why should any faith, or set of faiths, be considered 'against' another?

Ask the Christians!

At the time that they came into existence, the Mediterranean world had a multitude of different religions and paths which coexisted and were tolerated.

Christianity set itself the task of stamping out everything but their own path. If this person asserts that everything known about Paganism was burned (which actually isn't true) then I'd riposte by asking who did the burning?

Personally i don't waste my breath debating with them though. There's not a Christian once-born who can shake my Paganism and I wouldn't have the arrogance to try to convert one of them.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Sleet]

He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth.

I do it all the time. (I presume he means the Christian God.) Edit: And so do about four billion other non-Christians around the world.

[Fane Ayuma]

I think both of ye have made good points.but can ask a questions?

What spiritual religions arent based on blind faith/near blind faith??Nobody has absolute proof for what we believe.

Also Semi, i think you would stand a much better chance of having a good discussion if you stopped trying to be so sarcastic and patronising, because it makes you come off looking like a bit of a pratt(Honestly, this isnt meant to be offensive).I read your apology, and i have nothing but respect for you for it, it takes bravery to do that.

[misschief]

well.. i have absolute truth on what i believe. i believe in myself and my magic, i've seen it, i've felt it, i've made it work, i've manifested it... it's there. for me that's absolute truth.

[Tabby]

First off let me say that its not "paganism vs. christianity". This is not a battle, they are religions. Paganism btw as some have said is not just one religion, its also a umbrella term that several religions fall under. Now a simple solution to this problem is to say this "I understand you have beliefs that differ from mine, I know that when it comes to religion we will never see eye too eye. So lets just drop it and agree too disagree."


Well put.. Sometimes no matter what you say or what logical argument you come up with you will need to agree to disagree. I myself have done this on this subject with some of the people I know.

[Anahita]

At the time that they came into existence, the Mediterranean world had a multitude of different religions and paths which coexisted and were tolerated.

Christianity set itself the task of stamping out everything but their own path. If this person asserts that everything known about Paganism was burned (which actually isn't true) then I'd riposte by asking who did the burning?


Not all religions coexisted peacefully before the advent of Christianity. The Romans had a lot of trouble understanding Judaism for one and there was a good amount of conflict. Not to mention that a lot of other religions were grafted onto native religions by conquerers.

As for burning, it was in fact secular authorities who did most of the convicting and not the Church. Sure, it may have been Christians making up the whole membership of the secular courts (after all, most people were at least nominally Christians at that point), but they were NOT Church tribunals. The Inquisition did burn some people, but it was a much smaller number than people think, and as I mentioned before, many more people were killed by secular authorities. It should also be noted that most of the people who were burned were Christian as well. Sorry but I'm a nitpicker about history.

I also agree that it is best just to agree to disagree. You are firm in your faith and your friend is firm in his. While discussion might be possible, conversion of either of you is highly unlikely.

- Anahita

[înnerpoînt]

Ask the Christians!

At the time that they came into existence, the Mediterranean world had a multitude of different religions and paths which coexisted and were tolerated.

Christianity set itself the task of stamping out everything but their own path. The faith of Christianity itself is not the culprit here. It's some of the people that claim to practice this faith. I've seen many Wiccans go out of their way to overtly antagonise a Christian just because they were Christian. A lot of this can be attributed to the fact that many Wiccans are former Christians and the reason(s) that they left Christianity still rankles. I work trade-show circuits in an area that is predominantly fundamentalist Christian. Some of the items that I sell leave no doubt as to what faiths they belong to and I've yet to receive any flak for carrying them. I've been asked questions about what they're for, how they're used, what some things mean, and why I wear a pentacle. But no one, as yet, has been antagonistic nor condescending.

As I stated in my introduction elsewhere on this site, one of the boards that I moderate on Beliefnet is the Religious Tolerance board. Right off the top of my head, I can think of six different faiths that regularly participate in the discussions. Wiccans and Christians seem to be the most predominant representatives and everyone using this board seems to be extremely open-minded in wanting to learn and understand what the other faiths really believe. True, every once in a while you get a new one that is so full of themselves that they feel they have to denigrate someone elses beliefs, but, believe it or not, people of the same faith will often step up to defend the one that is being attacked.

I hope, in time, that people of all faiths will learn to interact with each other in the way that these few are. There is no reason not to. It's just going to take a lot of understanding and the setting aside of stereotypes that have so long been a part of our societal structure. I don't think that I will ever see it, but there is always hope for the future.

[Kalamath_Timegod]

I thank all of you for your comments and wisdom. I have done some scouring on the internet and found some sites that he must read. I especially enjoy the POCM website...thanks for that link.

Now here is something that is going to make you all die. My friend told me this face to face two weeks before we had this conversation. He said that if he wasn't christian that he would be pagan because he agrees with their beliefs and likes their "rules." But just tuesday evening he was trying to convert me, I don't get it. I guess I should kick him in the butt and say "if you are so die hard Christian yet you said you would be pagan there where do you fit in, make up your mind."

Thoughts?

[Athena-Nadine]

I thank all of you for your comments and wisdom. I have done some scouring on the internet and found some sites that he must read. I especially enjoy the POCM website...thanks for that link.

Now here is something that is going to make you all die. My friend told me this face to face two weeks before we had this conversation. He said that if he wasn't christian that he would be pagan because he agrees with their beliefs and likes their "rules." But just tuesday evening he was trying to convert me, I don't get it. I guess I should kick him in the butt and say "if you are so die hard Christian yet you said you would be pagan there where do you fit in, make up your mind."

Thoughts?
Maybe he's fighting his own battles within himself? Maybe he's struggling with what he believes, coflicted between what his heart is telling him and what he thinks he's supposed to believe and feel? He very well could be in the middle of a crisis of faith. His sudden proselytizing may just be a symptom of that. Or perhaps he was going through the crisis a few weeks before and decided that his "one true faith" was the right one for him.

[Vetteman]

OK, read most of the posts, and considering the original title of christianity versus paganism, is it possible to be a christian with certain beliefs which would be considered to be pagan? Hope this doesnt close down this thread, most of the threads I seem to post on STOP.

cheers

Richard

[Athena-Nadine]

OK, read most of the posts, and considering the original title of christianity versus paganism, is it possible to be a christian with certain beliefs which would be considered to be pagan? Hope this doesnt close down this thread, most of the threads I seem to post on STOP.

cheers

Richard
I is. :) In fact, there are a few people on MW who do exactly that. They can explain the particulars to you much better than I can, since I've never been Christian and really don't know enough about it, but people who believe in that way certainly do exist. :)

[Vetteman]

Thanks Athena-Nadine, I was beginning to feel that maybe my belief system was really screwed up.

[equinox2]

(sorry didn't read the entire 5 pages of posts.)

Kalamath wrote:
He said that you can't deny God because his word is the Truth.

I could just as easily state that you can deny lgeyc because his word is the Truth. Ask him how he knows that the Bible is correct as opposed to the Koran, etc.

But first, you might want to read these pages from my spiritual history.
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj5xbbibprob.htm
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj6xhinfo.htm

See, I started out Christian, and when I started to question, I found that none of it made sense (not the Bible either). You can read my whole histor if you like by starting at the "1" in the lower left corner of either of those pages.

Love & Light-

[ap Dafydd]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Not all religions coexisted peacefully before the advent of Christianity. The Romans had a lot of trouble understanding Judaism for one and there was a good amount of conflict. Not to mention that a lot of other religions were grafted onto native religions by conquerers.

Though interestingly, once any question of political dissidence was removed, the Empire were very tolerant of the Jews, who enjoyed quite a privileged position religiously.

I'm not sure either that it was a case of the interpretatio Romana being imposed from above, more that the local elites wanted to compromise with the new order and if that meant having dedications to Sulis Minerva or Mars Loucetios, then away to go...

All of which makes me sound a bit like an apologist for the Empire, which I'm certainly not!


As for burning, it was in fact secular authorities who did most of the convicting and not the Church. Sure, it may have been Christians making up the whole

Indeed so, wouldn't disagree in the slightest with that one. But IIRC, the original poster was referring to knowledge being burned rather than people!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Anahita]

Indeed so, wouldn't disagree in the slightest with that one. But IIRC, the original poster was referring to knowledge being burned rather than people!



Touche. :deviltail

- Anahita

[ap Dafydd]

The faith of Christianity itself is not the culprit here. It's some of the people that claim to practice this faith.

Perhaps not now, but certainly back in Classical times. Some of the stuff that people like Charlemagne, St Patrick and St Martin did and wrote is extremely scary, and if you try to put yourself in the shoes of the people they were doing it to, it gives you a very cold feeling to your stomach.


I've seen many Wiccans go out of their way to overtly antagonise a Christian just because they were Christian. A lot of this can be attributed to the fact that many Wiccans are former Christians and the reason(s) that they left Christianity still rankles.

Also that most of us, Wiccan or no, claim to have some inheritance from the Old Religions and to feel in some way diminished by the way that they were trashed.


I hope, in time, that people of all faiths will learn to interact with each other in the way that these few are. There is no reason not to. It's just going to take a lot of understanding and the setting aside of stereotypes that have so long been a part of our societal structure. I don't think that I will ever see it, but there is always hope for the future.

Don't give up. There are a small number of Christians (I'm thinking of the Rev Gethin ab Iorwerth, Rev Richard Thomas, and the late Michael de Ward) in the UK who certainly have engaged constructively with Pagan ideas and there is a lot of Interfaith work done (which also has the practical advantage of being able to make sure that Pagan ideas are fairly represented to and by government bodies). The Pagan Federation has done a lot of useful things in that area. Not saying that there will ever be points of agreement between us, but then there don't need to be. So long as they leave us alone, then I'm quite happy to do the same

gwyn eich byd

Ffred