Athiesm

[Amethyst Rose]

Okay... I'm slightly confused.

In a recent conversation over ICQ with my husband (who is an Athiest) we discussed the difference between the two sentences "an athiest does not believe in a god" and "athiests believe there is no god".

Here is the conversation that took place:

theFinn: it's a huge difference....in one there's a belief structure based on the non-existance of god. On the other hand there's no belief what-so-ever
Amethyst: but it makes no sense to say you have no belief at all.
theFinn: it makes perfect sense....
Amethyst: no it doesn't....If I say, "do you think there is a god" and you say "no" that is a belief that there isn't one.
theFinn: no...atheism is about lack of belief. I don't believe one way or the other
Amethyst: still doesnt make any sense
theFinn: it makes perfect sense!
Amethyst: okay, so lets assume for a second that it makes sense ;) what would you call someone who believes there isn't a god?
theFinn: a theist. They believe something, thus subscribing to a religious belief. Thus they are a religious person, ergo a theist
Amethyst: but how can you be a religious person if you don't believe in god?
theFinn: that's just it, an atheist has no relation to religion at all. They are completly void of it. By having a belief you make yourself part of a religion, even if you believe the opposite. Its like matter and anti-matter. They're diometrically opposed but part of the same system of matter.
Amethyst: uh...k..... I still don't get it :(
theFinn: I don't know any other way to explain it....atheism is a lack of something, not a disbelief
Amethyst: ok :)
theFinn: most people who say they are atheists really arn't, they think they are, but in the stricktest definition they arn't

I still don't see how a person who believes there is no god can be considered to have a religion. What do you think? Can anyone here make me understand any better? (I just love the theological conversations my husband and I have. :D)

[Ben Trismegistus]

*grin* You're both part right and part wrong. ;)

For your part, I'll tell you that it is possible not to have a belief. You can't prove a negative. If there's no ice cream cone on my desk, it's not that I *believe* there is no ice cream cone on my desk, but that I observe nothing that would indicate that there *is* an ice cream cone on my desk. Believing that there is no god is different -- you could say "Based on the pain and suffering I have observed in the world, I believe that there is no god." That's a belief. But you could also say, "Nothing I have seen in this world would indicate the possibility of a god." That's no belief at all. It's a lack of belief.

But your husband is wrong that someone who believes there is no god is a theist. By definition, a theist is one who believes there IS a god. The Internet Infidels (the web authority on atheism) describes the difference between these two types of atheists as "strong atheism" and "weak atheism". In strong atheism, you are certain that there is no god. In weak atheism, you think (or believe) that there is no god, but you don't necessarily rule out the possibility.

Hope this helps. :)

[Amethyst Rose]

"Based on the pain and suffering I have observed in the world, I believe that there is no god." That's a belief. But you could also say, "Nothing I have seen in this world would indicate the possibility of a god." That's no belief at all. It's a lack of belief.

That makes perfect sense, thanks. :)



But your husband is wrong that someone who believes there is no god is a theist. By definition, a theist is one who believes there IS a god. The Internet Infidels (the web authority on atheism) describes the difference between these two types of atheists as "strong atheism" and "weak atheism". In strong atheism, you are certain that there is no god. In weak atheism, you think (or believe) that there is no god, but you don't necessarily rule out the possibility.


But to say you are certain there is no god (stron athiesm, as you put it) seems to be to be a belief. (Not really athiesm, in my husbands view, because it is a belief). Where as weak athiesm, as you described it, seems to me to be agnosticism.

[Ben Trismegistus]

But to say you are certain there is no god (stron athiesm, as you put it) seems to be to be a belief. (Not really athiesm, in my husbands view, because it is a belief). Where as weak athiesm, as you described it, seems to me to be agnosticism.
Yeah, I've had that argument with atheists before. But I acquiesced, because it's their thing, so they might as well be able to use their own terminology. Check this out - the Internet Infidels do a better job explaining this than I do:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/overview.html

[Amethyst Rose]

Yeah, I've had that argument with atheists before. But I acquiesced, because it's their thing, so they might as well be able to use their own terminology. Check this out - the Internet Infidels do a better job explaining this than I do:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/overview.html

:lol: Yeah, I think that what I have to do in this case...just nod and smile. Thanks for the link, I'll definately check it out!

[Amethyst Rose]

So I passed the link onto my husband..... he said that the page is totally wrong... that they guy who wrote it got it wrong within the first two paragraphs. So now I don't know what to believe. :lol:

[Ben Trismegistus]

*grin* Oh well, it was worth a try.

[SH-AA]

From an Atheist himself:

Atheists who say "I simply don't believe in god" usually call themselves "weak" or "Agnstoic" Atheists. Atheists who who say "God is Impossible" usually call themselves "strong" or "Gnostic" Atheists. It really doesn't matter to get into the technicalities in my opinion, because once you know that you simply don't believe in god, I don't see why one should dabble in the matter.

[Brónach Druid]

Here are the definitions as I understand them.
An atheist used to just be considered someone who did not believe in god.
However, that seems to have changed. Now there are weak atheist and strong atheist. A weak atheist is someone who denies, or lacks the belief in god. A strong atheist is positively sure god does not exist. Therefore, to them it is not a belief, but a fact. An agnostic is someone who is uncertain of god's existence and feels that the question is unanswerable, therefore an agnostic neither believes or disbelief's in god. Theism is the belief in god or gods. I don't know if that is what your husband is trying to say, or if it makes any sense to you, but I tried. :bouncysmi

[Ceres]

i have been hanging out in religion debate rooms for about 6 years now and i found the webpage very informative. its good to read a clear concise explanation of atheism and agnosticism. thanks, Theresa

[Snapdragon]

My first philosophy teacher explained this difference in simple, logical terms. It's a matter of what is being negated.

One statement is "I believe there is no God." The negation is God; God is being negated. Belief is not being negated.

Another statement is "I do not believe there is a God." The negation is belief; belief is being negated. God is not being negated.

So, to not believe is the agnostic position
To believe there is no God is the atheist position.

That's the difference.

[Toby Stimpson]

My first philosophy teacher explained this difference in simple, logical terms. It's a matter of what is being negated.

One statement is "I believe there is no God." The negation is God; God is being negated. Belief is not being negated.

Another statement is "I do not believe there is a God." The negation is belief; belief is being negated. God is not being negated.

So, to not believe is the agnostic position
To believe there is no God is the atheist position.

That's the difference.


Thats a nice way of putting it hmmm....interesting have to ponder that.

[DoktorSick]

From an Atheist himself:

Atheists who say "I simply don't believe in god" usually call themselves "weak" or "Agnstoic" Atheists. Atheists who who say "God is Impossible" usually call themselves "strong" or "Gnostic" Atheists. It really doesn't matter to get into the technicalities in my opinion, because once you know that you simply don't believe in god, I don't see why one should dabble in the matter.
Really ?
I'm an atheist and have been a member of the american atheist for years.
And I have yet seen the term strong or gnostic used.
We just consider ourselves atheist.That's strong enough on it's on.

[Djiril]

LOL This thread reminded me of this essay:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

[David19]

I think athiesm is just a lack of belief in any god or higher power, i used to call myself an athiest (but i was actually agnostic, not knowing either way), i now think that there probably are gods or supernatural beings, i think athiests and agnostics are better in some ways than most other religious people (including 'pagans'), because they don't care one way or the other, they don't get attached to dogma, and you rarely get any aethist or agnostic fundamentalists (although there are a few such as the guy on www.jesusneverexisted.com, he seems to be a blatant anti-Semitic idiot).

[plumedsnake]

I have yet to get involved in a conversation about conflicting definitions of words that hasn't ended in a headache. If I were to be strict about definitions then I would have to say that Atheist is derived from the greek word Theos which means god. A Theos means No God. The addition of -ism at the end of a word implies system of thought or belief. Theism must therefore be the system of thought that based on God while Atheism is a system of thought (ie a belief) based on the non existence of God. All else just seems like someone is trying to give his mates a headache. Besides, for one to say that one has no beliefs is hard for me to believe. Everybody has some belief or the other.
What I find more interesting is what people mean when they speak of God. For me to appreciate whether or not you believe in God or not, I have to be sure I know what you mean by God. Some people believe that God is a physical being that exists somewhere. Other people believe that he is inanimate. Others believe that he exists everywhere. Omnipresent. I believe the christian defination is that he is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. Others believe that he is actually a she. But these are all concepts that the human mind can grasp. If God was the creator (some don't believe that God was the creator of the world - The Gnostics actually believed that the world was created by an evil being), then surely he created the mind and all the concepts in it. So therefore God must be beyond all concepts and conceptualisation. God can't be a concept that we can grasp and talk about, or discuss it's existence or non existence. God created the very concept of Existence so what was he before he created existence. Beyond existence or non existence. Beyond all conceptual polarities. Others believe that this universe is God and that we are all a part of God, in this case would the atheist say that the world doesn't exist ... It goes on. I'd like to know what atheists define as God before going into why the defined God doesn't exist.
What is a higher being? A being that lives higher in the atmosphere than we do? Or a being that is more intelligent than we are? Or simply a being that smokes more weed than I do. What defines high? I know some pretty high beings that I wouldn't bow down to ever. The first thing they do when they wake up is get high.

[Rasenna]

Actually, the Romans used to call monotheists atheists, because of their single-minded pursuit of a singular god.
-R

[Skeletal Season]

Most Athiests I have encountered were just as bad as fundie Christians. They have that whole "holier than thou" (if that term can be applied to athiests, lol) type of attitude where they look down on any who hold some sort of belief in deity. They're pricks, just as bad as the Christians.

But every so often a cool Athiest comes around and I realize that some of them are good people with valid and interesting view points. I like that first link, the guy sounds like a pretty decent person trying to set straight his beliefs.

We may not see eye to eye, but there is no reason why we all can't just respect (certain) people who hold different views than them without it turning into a "believers in gods are stupid misguided human beings" sort of thing.

[halfwaynowhere]

whether you don't believe in any god, or you believe in no god, you are atheist. my sister runs an atheist club at her school, and is running a summer camp (perhaps some of you have heard of Camp Quest?) based on free thought.. to her, atheism is about free thought, freedom from religion... people from the same religious groups have different beliefs... i feel that this applies to atheists as well... everyone sees it differently, making it difficult to agree on one definition...

[mtpathy]

Alright just so i got this straight a Atheist (weak) is someone who
believes that there might be a god or god's,but first needs proof thats
beyound any shadow of a doubt.
And a Atheist (strong),is someone that looks at everyone else and
finds them silly "self deluded",because they believe in a god,when he
knows that there isn't any kind of god for anyone.
Hince "belief in no god, IS his belief".
So the "middle ground",between these two beliefs/practices would be the
Agnostic who dosen't really give a damn one way or another about the
existence of a god or lack of a god.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok...
Now that im thoroughly confused could anyone tell me the
differences between a Animist and a Nihilist?
cause ive always considered myself to be stuck between these
two middle pillers.

[Nadasdy]

Lets get this straight:


The “I don’t care” would be called a non-theist.

A person who states that the existence of god “is meaningless” would be called an Ignostic

An Agnostic is a person who chooses to sit the fence because he/she doesn’t believe there is enough evidence to prove whether or not a deity exists

A weak stance atheist is a lack/absence of belief in a deity, without actually stating that the deity does not exist

A strong stance atheist is a person who would state that a deity does not exist.



Alright just so i got this straight a Atheist (weak) is
Ok...
Now that im thoroughly confused could anyone tell me the
differences between a Animist and a Nihilist?
cause ive always considered myself to be stuck between these
two middle pillers.

Animism is the belief in spirits

Nihilism is the belief that denies all existence; nothing can be known or communicated.



Hmm...not that similer after all, yes?




Regards, N :wave:

[mtpathy]

this is a riot :lol:
Ignostic & Agnostic
Atheist & theist
Nihilist & Animist
Wouldn't all these things
in fact be seperate parts
of the same whole?
"does the hokeypockey and
turns himself around"..:rotfl: :veryweird

[Marcasite]

I am an atheist in that I don't believe in any god or any dieties, but I do believe in a life force flowing through all things and that is what I worship and attempt to alter through energy working. So I dunno what I'd be classified as...

[Nadasdy]

this is a riot :lol:
Ignostic & Agnostic
Atheist & theist
Nihilist & Animist
Wouldn't all these things
in fact be seperate parts
of the same whole?
"does the hokeypockey and
turns himself around"..:rotfl: :veryweird

Only atheism, agnosticism, and theism


I am an atheist in that I don't believe in any god or any dieties, but I do believe in a life force flowing through all things and that is what I worship and attempt to alter through energy working. So I dunno what I'd be classified as...

Probably one of these:

Hylozoism- is the belief that all matter has life


Animism- is the belief that everything in the universe has a soul



Regards, N