Wiccan Goddess, Christian God

[Annyka]

What are people's thoughts on combining the beliefs of the Wiccan Goddess and the Christian God?
I believe in the Goddess and the Gardians of the Elements as well as the God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
I combine all of these together to create a balance and harmony between the two.

Blessed be
Annyka

[mol]

I have heard of this before...but I myself dont follow that Path.

Can you still follow the Bibles teachings with this kind of Path, or have you disregarded it?

[Litha]

This belief system is shared by Christian Pagans as
well as practitioners of Santoria who worship Mary
and Magdaline as aspects of the Mother.

http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/links.html
is a site that might interest you (:

[Lilu]

I have heard of people who try to combine both, and if you can figure it out, more power to you!

I think the biggest thing is that you have to go BEYOND commonly taught Christianity, because if you're going to follow the Bible and the Commandments AS WELL as Wicca, then they are a contradiction in and of themselves, especially being that one of the commandmenta is "You shall have no other gods but me"

And remember, the Bible expressly forbids Witchcraft, which may or may not be included by someone practicing Wicca.

But if you can figure out a way to reconcile these obvious differences, then good for you! I personally can't though.

I have a great connection to Jesus, but to me he is more than just the Christian "saviour" he is an ascended master, among many others, and someone anyone can connect with. He is one of my patrons.

BB
Lilu

[mol]

Originally posted by Lilu
I have heard of people who try to combine both, and if you can figure it out, more power to you!

I think the biggest thing is that you have to go BEYOND commonly taught Christianity, because if you're going to follow the Bible and the Commandments AS WELL as Wicca, then they are a contradiction in and of themselves, especially being that one of the commandmenta is "You shall have no other gods but me"

Actually, it says...Thou shalt have no Gods before me.

So, in essence...as long as you put the God first...then it shouldn't be breaking the Commandment! Although, I believe that Wicca teaches the equality of the God and Goddess...so...

Some fuel for the fire...

[Lilu]

Originally posted by mol


Actually, it says...Thou shalt have no Gods before me.

So, in essence...as long as you put the God first...then it shouldn't be breaking the Commandment! Although, I believe that Wicca teaches the equality of the God and Goddess...so...

Some fuel for the fire...

**hitting forehead** I actually KNEW that, LOL, but I'd forgotten the exact wording and this was on the first ten commandments site I ran across. hehehe

Yes, it's interesting, how does one approach something like that? If you put Him (Christian God) first, is it ok to worship someone else second? *grin* Will have to give some more thought to that one...... thoughts anyone?

I've already explained my stance, but I am eager to learn how a Christian/Wiccan defines things. And are you a Christian Wiccan (which many people say is an oxymoron) or are you a Christian Witch (which is more than possible)?

lilu

[mol]

Christian Witches. I have seen and met.

Christian Wiccans...I have not. So this is actually a pretty new concept to me. Like I said...I am just fanning the flames here.

[ZenKing]

I dont see how someone can be a Wiccan and be a Christian. These are two 'religious' Paths. I dont think they can comingle.

[Mairwen]

Okay, here's one for you.

What about someone taking an old family tradition and mingling it with druidry and Christianity?

That has happened. And the path has thousands of followers internationally.

[Pamela Faye]

Ok I'm jumping in on the band wagon.
This has been a subject on my mine for many years, you can find similarties in each religion. Weither it be Christanty ,Buddhasim, Zen, the list can go on and on. The one thing that we have a common belief in is ourselves, we think for ourselves and come to our own terms.
If combining religions is what brings balance into your life then that is your path. We are as veried as the stars and each one oh us shines differently.
One of the reasons we have reached out to one another here at this site.
I listen to my inner voice dring my quiet time, I feel we each have one. We just need to strive to hear it.
Keep learning and growing anything that stops you from doing this Can not be good.
Listen, Learn and Grow.

[richardcranium]

How? I know I am not a bible scholar or anything, but I know I read in the bible that they are not supposed to let a witch suffer to live. If this is your path then so be it. I just don't understand how any one that follows a pagan path can believe in the bible when it teaches that we have to die.

[mol]

None of us have ever REALLY read the bible anyway. The Real thing. Before it was ported over to every different language in the world and every transposer added their own little style of writing. I can bet that the authentic book is a lot different. ;)

[richardcranium]

Is there anyone that is alive today that can tell us what the bible really said?

[eaglewolf]

I am sure there are many who say they can, but that is all I know.

~ew

[Litha]

I imagine there are people that can tell you exactly word for word what the bible says, but I don't think you'll find them here....

[Dextra]

The only way anyone could really know what the bible originally said was if they had a copy of the original and was able to speak and read Hebrew fluently. So far, I have seen neither.

[rantnraven]

Sorry, Mol but I have read the Bible twice. Actually 2 and 1/2 times. Started with King James but got really confused around the book of Ruth. So I read a Standard version then back to the King James (second Testament). It made more sense then - that version anyway.

There is a verse that states, "Let not a witch live". However, we can take this, often, too literally. There is something similar in the Book of Mormon (Moroni) and, yes, I have read most of that too.

The Ten Commandments are from a the Old Testament and, really, no longer apply. That was the philosophy of the coming of Christ. You remember - when all of our sins were forgiven???

Along those line, there came TWO commandment that replaced the old - I would have to re-read to find them right now - but they are along the same line as the Wiccan Reede; An it harme none, Do as thou Wilt. Well that and, give money to the church.

My thought is this: the Bible, like many other books, is a great book of philosophy and reading it can give an idea of how to live well (to a degree). The Craft is "free-spirited" and, perhaps, might benefit by such a writing. Just remember, the Bible has not been fully interpreted. There are still over a dozen words that the BEST scholars can't figure out.

Wouldn't it be funny if they equated to "NOT!".

FFT

-T

[richardcranium]

I think it is funny6 that they call it this. If they think that this the greatest story ever told then they will love some of my Dragonlance novels. The could even join in on one of my gaming sessions and write down the story that unfolds there. At least they wouldn't have any trouble trying to follow it.

[cydira]

In my religion course, I've been getting taught that the translation stating "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" was mistranslated. And that the term was supposed to be rapist. <shrugs> Just my 2 cents on that one.

Aside from that, I am honestly rather baffled by Christianity as a whole because I'm completely ignorant about almost everything about the religion. People get a good laugh out of my questions in class, to say the least. For some reason, the nuns seem to think that I'm a very "sweet pagan" and that they'd "love to see more of you on campus." <shrugs> I don't claim to understand them, but I'm thrilled that they aren't pissed that I'm here.

:)

[adrian]

Greetings All!
Any history buffs here??? I have researched my path and from my understanding, the goddess came before god... it was "man" who changed this , he/we exerted power over "woman" who was weaker physically but much stronger in every other aspect than man.
Woman was the head of the tribes, she gave birth and guided man in his daily living and i believe that we as
"men" should acknowledge our mistake in upsurping the original power and purity of womankind who led the tribes in emotional respect for our mother earth and each other, we as men were wrong for doing this, just look around you at the mess we created and now it is woman who is starting to gather together the tribes in love and compassion, nurturing us back to our original places as it should be...i just hope it's not too late.

To all the guys out there, i mean no offence to you as men but as i searched for truth, i found out things that led me to believe that i was lied to and i felt betrayed, all in the name of power and control.

[adrian]

Sorry people, but i must say this, if anyone wants to really know a "truth" go beyond the bible, research history before the christian era and perceive for yourselves what the truth is.
Walk in love and light...em hotep (in peace)

[Earth Walker]

A self-created male god with no Mother is an
unsupportable belief in Pagan Traditions.




Why fear ye the Dark Queen, eh men?
She is your renewer.

[rantnraven]

I, for one, have never believed in that barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen crap!

You can keep your shoes on.

Hehe

Hope everyone knows that's just a joke. Men and Women are equals in my book. No one better then the other. We must work together and have no expectations of the other.

Sorry, Adrian, I cannot apologize for the past and what has been done to women as I was not a part of that. I can no more apologize for the Jewish Holocaust then I can for the terrors of slavery. Yes, I'm sorry it happened but do not bare the burden on my shoulders. All I can do is help in correcting a bad situation.

Blessing, Brother

[Earth Walker]

:D Not all men have usurped the power of women,
and that means my Pagan brothers. :)
When I say men, I mean those men who are caught up
in the dead-end patriarchal religions....christianity....
Islam, Judaism, Buddhism....Moonies....Mormonism....
yada, yada, yada.



Women need a reason for sex; men only need a place.

[adrian]

yes, it is wrong for one to take on the burdens of the past but as you said RnR we all must work to make the best of a bad situation. I am man, but i an less without woman as woman is less without man.

Mystique...women need a reason for sex, men only need a place??? that's bad, and it says a lot about men
but then you have to admit that some women are just as bad as men...i adore a strong woman who knows who she is and i respect a man who can relate to his feminine side. More and more of us are realizing that it is not about sex, or physical attraction but where the heart and spirit lie.

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by adrian
yes, it is wrong for one to take on the burdens of the past but as you said RnR we all must work to make the best of a bad situation. I am man, but i an less without woman as woman is less without man.

Mystique...women need a reason for sex, men only need a place??? that's bad, and it says a lot about men
but then you have to admit that some women are just as bad as men...i adore a strong woman who knows who she is and i respect a man who can relate to his feminine side. More and more of us are realizing that it is not about sex, or physical attraction but where the heart and spirit lie.




Blessed Be, Brother

Have some lemonade and sit here on the comfy chair thingy.

RnR

[adrian]

I accept!!! I need to relax and have some lemonade and while i don't drink, maybe an extra something in the lemonade may help. LOL

[ELM]

Well refusing to apologize for the things men have done to women in the past is one thing. But we do live in a patriarchal society and this is still damaging to both men and women. But that's an historical and political lesson best saved for another place. However should white people apologize to black people for the actions of their forefathers? I think so. Should the Church apologize for the murder of millions of suspected witches? yes it should. And both the governments and the Church's should apologize to women.
With regard to mixing Christianity with any pagan path. I believe the Christian god has power only in his land and within his people. My land has no place for him, my land has different gods. Nothing wrong with it though. But I could never accept the god christians have turned him into!

[adrian]

Originally posted by ELM
Well refusing to apologize for the things men have done to women in the past is one thing. But we do live in a patriarchal society and this is still damaging to both men and women. But that's an historical and political lesson best saved for another place. However should white people apologize to black people for the actions of their forefathers? I think so. Should the Church apologize for the murder of millions of suspected witches? yes it should. And both the governments and the Church's should apologize to women.
With regard to mixing Christianity with any pagan path. I believe the Christian god has power only in his land and within his people. My land has no place for him, my land has different gods. Nothing wrong with it though. But I could never accept the god christians have turned him into! Greetings Elm! May we forever walk in light. Some things i agree with what you said ,
the church/government apologizing to women...yes. but more so how about apologizing to the people of this world for deceiving them all these years! We also have to remember that the church in the beginning was a young entity, zealous and prejudice against all who weren't "christian" i'm not saying they should be forgiven but i think they should at least look into the past mistakes and apologize where applicable. I heard that not long ago the pope apologized for the past actions of the church, which is well and good; but what about now? And as far as white people apologizing to black people for the past actions of their ancestors, i have to disagree...why? because in this case it is best just to forgive and forget and grow together from today and as long as there are people who will bring this up
(on both sides) it will always be an issue. As a black man
i truly believe that we should look beyond our color and look within to our spirits which are the same no matter who or what one is. In times of disaster we all come together to help each other, this is proof of the spirits power to overcome all obsitcles. Peace and love to all.

[ELM]

Adrian. Thank's for your thoughts. I think that in order to forgive and forget someone has to say sorry. You are right the Church has not only to apologise to women, but it does need to address women specifically in it's apology. The Pope didn't exactly apologise he said he regretted the Crusades, but many Muslims and other people think that he did not go far enough there.
Also, I don't think it is time to forgive and forget just yet. Many women still experience discrimination. Here in the UK we have just learned that women are still paid less then men for doing the same job. And aside from that there is the way that many men still treat us. Not to mention the way women are talked about in music and in the media etc. And as a white person I know that inherent racism is still an issue. Though I never thought of myself as racist, I realised in recent years that because of my upbringing I still have a tendency to judge people of other races by stereotypes. For example I was very rude to an Italian man who was trying to talk to me, simply because Italian men are always portrayed as being slimey sex monsters on British TV. I realise now I was wrong, and that I have to challenge all these assumptions. The fight against discrimination has to start in the mind of those who discriminate, and some people are a long long way from that. Anyway. Interesting points you raised. And I am glad that people are thinking hard about these very important issues.
Blessings.
ELM

[rantnraven]

This world has always been full of anger and hatered, predjudice, sexism. Religion against religion. And why is that? I think it's because of all the finger pointing. Everybody wants an apology. Look what's going on with China right now. WHY? Whay can we not put the past behind us? Apology or no, there is not one single thing we can do to correct it. And apology won't fix the problems of the world - only action. Why not drop it and look to the future? Be procreative. It appears that we plan our future by dwelling in the past and that's just not right.

My thoughts,

RnR

[Earth Walker]

I believe that women and men are equal, as in our
Pagan community.
It is not an insult to those, but rather a harsh
criticism of christianity....which likes to believe that it
is their way or the highway.

[adrian]

Originally posted by ELM
Adrian. Thank's for your thoughts. I think that in order to forgive and forget someone has to say sorry. You are right the Church has not only to apologise to women, but it does need to address women specifically in it's apology. The Pope didn't exactly apologise he said he regretted the Crusades, but many Muslims and other people think that he did not go far enough there.
Also, I don't think it is time to forgive and forget just yet. Many women still experience discrimination. Here in the UK we have just learned that women are still paid less then men for doing the same job. And aside from that there is the way that many men still treat us. Not to mention the way women are talked about in music and in the media etc. And as a white person I know that inherent racism is still an issue. Though I never thought of myself as racist, I realised in recent years that because of my upbringing I still have a tendency to judge people of other races by stereotypes. For example I was very rude to an Italian man who was trying to talk to me, simply because Italian men are always portrayed as being slimey sex monsters on British TV. I realise now I was wrong, and that I have to challenge all these assumptions. The fight against discrimination has to start in the mind of those who discriminate, and some people are a long long way from that. Anyway. Interesting points you raised. And I am glad that people are thinking hard about these very important issues.
Blessings.
ELM I give thanks for the credit for bringing up these issues but alas i cannot take credit for them, it was you who first started this conversation, i am a soul seeking truth and understanding, knowledge and wisdom, i give thanks to you for the opportunity to converse in such a way... to some it may be a little touchy but i feel that we must address these issues in order to grow beyond them and become whole.

[ELM]

RnR, I understand your point, though China and the USA is a bad example to use in support of your point I think. The USA will not admit they did anything wrong, and that is what makes China angry. If someone does not accept that they did something wrong no one has any guarantee that it won't happen again. That's what sorry means, it means, 'I realise I was in the wrong and I will never do it again.'
As for dwelling in the past, most people look around them and wonder how things came to be as they are. They find out that something happened in the past which lead to their poverty, their being discriminated against, or whatever. They see also that not enough has changed to put their situation right, and they want those responsibility to accept responsibility, agree never to hurt them again, and help to put it right.
You are right action must be taken, but if the perpetrators of the offence refuse to acknowledge any responsibility and continue to offend, then action is taken against them. Thus war, thus destruction death etc. Surely it is better to say sorry. It's not about finger pointing, it's about correction and integrity.

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by ELM
RnR, I understand your point, though China and the USA is a bad example to use in support of your point I think. The USA will not admit they did anything wrong, and that is what makes China angry. If someone does not accept that they did something wrong no one has any guarantee that it won't happen again. That's what sorry means, it means, 'I realise I was in the wrong and I will never do it again.'
As for dwelling in the past, most people look around them and wonder how things came to be as they are. They find out that something happened in the past which lead to their poverty, their being discriminated against, or whatever. They see also that not enough has changed to put their situation right, and they want those responsibility to accept responsibility, agree never to hurt them again, and help to put it right.
You are right action must be taken, but if the perpetrators of the offence refuse to acknowledge any responsibility and continue to offend, then action is taken against them. Thus war, thus destruction death etc. Surely it is better to say sorry. It's not about finger pointing, it's about correction and integrity.

However, though China may have been a bad example, let me try something else. I have a great Uncle - no longer alive - who was a Bank Robber in the later 30's - Willie "The Actor" Sutton. He hurt quite a few people in his lifetime. The question is this; Am I to apologize for what he did and, perhaps, finish his prison sentence for his crimes?

I want to work to make things better, yes. But I cannot apologize for something I did not do. Maybe my ancestors have done major wrongs in the past but that doesn't mean that responsibility is automatically thrown on my shoulders. Wrong doing is not genetic. I can only try to Right the Wrong but cannot be expected to carry the burden.

Hope that all made sense.

Blessings,
RnR

[adrian]

Originally posted by Mystique
I believe that women and men are equal, as in our
Pagan community.
It is not an insult to those, but rather a harsh
criticism of christianity....which likes to believe that it
is their way or the highway.
True that! we are all equal beings. And i would rather take the highway in the hopes of finding other mature souls...*thumb out hitching a ride*.

[ELM]

RnR. I do take your point. Of course you should not say sorry for something you did not do. My point is that in institutions i.e. the government the church, wrong doing, and ideas that cause more wrong doing are passed down. For example we have a history of Christian Patriarchy which had until recently taught, (in some cases still does teach) us that women are evil or inherently deceptive, (Like Eve). That women are the lesser creation and thus do not deserve the same rights as men. And because these ideas are not completely dead, women are still paid less for doing the same job as men. Many men are still raised to think of women as lesser, and thus treat them accordingly. The media's portrayal of women is unrealistic and continues to support, albeit in a more diluted fashion, the idea of women as whores or virgin archetypes. And society continues to overlook issues that are of particular importance to women.
Now, I'm just using that as an example. But what I am saying is that when an institution continues to offend they need to take a step back realise they have inherited a hurtful system, and that they are still hurting people with that system, and apologise, and set to putting it right. If they do not, the future generations will continue to suffer, because the ideas are passed down and passed down without question.

Now, you can still disagree if you want, that's your right, and I will probably argue some more! Just want to say at this point, that I have my opinions and everyone should know that just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I have anything personal against them. It's just friendly debate! So long as we're clear.
Blessings, and look forward to debating some more.

[rantnraven]

Blessings.

I see your point about the "institute". I will debate no further but to say this: it is my stance and position to take on issues of intolerance where and when I can - men, women, religion, sexuality or, rights in general. I just do not intent to apologize for myself for I do not feel that I have done anyone wrong.

I have shed much for this country and for humanity and will continue to do so.

Bleeded Be my Friend,
RnR

[ELM]

Nice one RnR. *Extends hand to shake yours*

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by ELM
Nice one RnR. *Extends hand to shake yours*

*extends hand to accept and offers more lemonade*
Maybe a hug too.

Blessings,
RnR

[mol]

*bump*

[WhiteDruid]

I thought I would offer my perspective, since I used to be a Christopagan. I've since abandoned that path, not because I doubt its validity or anything, but because I think that Christianity (though not Jesus) has been causing me problems as far as embracing everything about myself, and so I want to be rid of Christianity -- at least for the time being. Anyway, here are a few points:

1. It should be pointed out that there is more to Christianity than the "orthodox" perspective. Let's call a spade a spade: the "orthodox" Christian church only had the copyright on Christianity because they murdered to get it. In early Christianity, there was a sect of Gnostic Christians who believed differently than orthodox Christians. Later came a sect called the Unitarians, who believed that Jesus was a man and not a god. There have been countless other sects like these, all of them brutally suppressed by the "orthodox" church, but validly Christian nevertheless. Liberals exist today who embrace many of their ideas. With many of these traditions, one could be a Christian and still embrace another religious path, or combine elements of both.

2. Regarding the first commandment. It is, of course, the Christian interpretation that says this means we shouldn't worship any other gods besides their male god, or gods, their trinity. But this has not always been the Jewish perspective, nor is it the Jewish perspective for all Jews today. We have to remember that YHVH is the name of the Jewish god. Many Jews studying the Kabballah believe that the four letters of YHVH correspond to four "aspects" of their god -- a Father aspect, a Mother aspect, a Son aspect, and a Daughter aspect. To some Kabbalistic Jews, YHVH is the Great Spirit, and all the gods make up this Great Spirit. Thus it isn't possible to worship any other gods, because all gods make up the Great Spirit.

And this is just one of the many ways the first commandment can be interpreted. Some liberal Christians have interpreted the commandments as laws Moses made up, and thus not binding -- though still good advice, for the most part. "You shall not murder" and "you shall not steal" are good pieces of advice.

3. Regarding the prohibition against "witchcraft." I read somewhere that linguistic scholars are saying that the word commonly interpreted "witchcraft" actually translates to a kind of violent sorcery. In other words, magick to harm or kill another. This is not our kind of witchcraft. We believe in harming none. So, in its strictest sense, the biblical prohibition does not include us. Even if it did, that doesn't matter much. There are biblical laws stating that women should not be around men while they're menstruating, or that women should sacrifice doves after menstruation, etc. These things are no longer observed, so why should the prohibition against witchcraft be observed?

4. It's important to point out that Jesus himself never explicitly condemned the worship of other gods or magick. In fact, if you read the gospels closely, it looks as if Jesus himself may have used magick, or at least a simplified form of it. Orthodox Christians still hold to the Old Testament and to the teachings of Paul, but many Liberal Christians don't. They feel that the Old Testament, or the Tanakh as the Jews call it, is the religious text of Judaism, a completely different religion. And they feel that Paul does not really represent Jesus, and upon close examination of what Paul says -- he doesn't. Many times, he contradicts Jesus.

And now, for those who are more interested, I have a whole list of books you folks might be interested in, and brief descriptions:

The Hebrew Goddess, by Raphael Patai. It's an excellent and very scholarly book about the possibility (and probability) that the early Hebrews worshipped a Goddess, as well as a God.

The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail, The Goddess in the Gospels: Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine, Magdalene's Lost Legacy: Symbolic Numbers and Sacred Union in Christianity, and The Feminine Face of Christianity, all by Margaret Starbird. Three excellent and scholarly works presenting a very different Jesus than the "orthodox" one -- with claims that he was married and fathered children. The fourth is a book about female saints and mystics in Christianity. I haven't read the latter two books, but the first two were excellent.

The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God?, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. The title says it all. I haven't read this one yet.

The Other Bible, by Willis Barnstone. A huge book containing Gnostic writings and commentary on them.

The Moon Under Her Feet, by Clysta Kinstler. This is fiction, about Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary in the cult of Asherah-Isis at the Jerusalem Temple. Not very likely, but interesting nevertheless. I haven't read this one yet.

And a few websites:

Esoteric Theological Seminary (http://www.northernway.org) -- An online seminary and church that deals primarily with Christopaganism. I worked with them for a couple of years, and aside from some very conservative political views, they're a great group.

Christian Wicca Home Page (http://www.christianwicca.com) -- A website operated by Rev. Nancy Chandler-Pittman that deals with one tradition of Christian Wicca called the Trinitarian Tradition, which is based upon a trinity of Father, Mother, and Son. Not the most scholarly tradition ever, but hey.

Sacred Union in Christianity (http://www.telisphere.com/~starbird/) -- Margaret Starbird's website, dealing with the alleged marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

Christian Earth Spirituality (http://www.amystickalgrove.com/cgi-bin/site/site.cgi?az=list&forum=SectionID104) -- A website by Ambrose Hawk, a very intelligent Christo-Pagan. It deals with Christian Earth Spirituality.

Anyway, there are some resources if you're interested. Sorry for the extremely long post, but this is a complex subject. lol. That, and I'm long-winded. :geez:

[Flar's Freyja]

I dont see how someone can be a Wiccan and be a Christian. These are two 'religious' Paths. I dont think they can comingle.

Wow, my thoughts have changed a lot on this over the past year or so. I don't think that the two paths necessarily need to compete, but I do believe that they can be blended in various ways. I was raised Catholic and have been a member of a number of Christian religions as well as Jewish. At this time in my life, I feel that I will be Pagan for the rest of my life, but there have been a few twists.

Quite by accident, I've run across a lot of information not just comparing the Catholic saints to pagan gods and goddesses, but states that some are one and the same. And I've recently come to look at Jesus as a god in his own right. No, I'm still not buying the salvation through Christ thing, but I see some incredible similarities in the life of Christ to gods such as Odin and other masters, such as Reiki's Usui. And a friend pointed out that quite a few Christians must think he's a god too, since they pray to him instead of the big guy..........

[WhiteDruid]

Quite by accident, I've run across a lot of information not just comparing the Catholic saints to pagan gods and goddesses, but states that some are one and the same. And I've recently come to look at Jesus as a god in his own right. No, I'm still not buying the salvation through Christ thing, but I see some incredible similarities in the life of Christ to gods such as Odin and other masters, such as Reiki's Usui. And a friend pointed out that quite a few Christians must think he's a god too, since they pray to him instead of the big guy
To address some of your points:

1. Yes, some of the Catholic saints used to be Pagan gods and goddesses. St. Brighid is perhaps the best example of this, but not the only one. All scholars agree that St. Brighid is the Irish goddess Brighid. They're not just connected in some way, she is the same person. Other examples don't come to mind right now, but there definitely are some.

2. Jesus' life definitely was similar to some of the gods, particularly the gods of the Middle East where the dying/rising god concept was so prevalent (though it was everywhere throughout the world, too). Some gods that come to mind: Tammuz, Osiris, Adonis, Ba'al, and Odin...and that's just to name a few. Some have insisted that Jesus was more Pagan than Jewish, and most non-Christians (and even some Christians) believe that Jesus had little or nothing in common with Christianity today.

3. Most Christians believe Jesus is their god. The "orthodox" Christians believe in a trinity or triad (they prefer trinity) of gods: a father, a son, and a holy spirit. Jesus is seen by most Christians as the "son" aspect of this triad. They actually believe that these three persons (father, son, and holy spirit) actually make up one god, not three gods. It's very similar to the Triple Goddess and other Pagan triads. Catholicism (the first "orthodox" Christian denomination) was instituted by the Pagan emperor Constantine, so it's not surprising the Catholic church would share much in common theologically with Paganism. Unfortunately, the Catholic church refuses to acknowledge that it has stolen doctrine from the very Pagans it later sought to destroy.

Ah well. C'est la vie. I (idealistically) believe that all religions will eventually mature and move beyond petty insecurities and superiority complexes. It'll just take a while.

[AmbivalentMirage]

As a Jewitch, combining faiths is essential for me!

This is how I see my personal divinity:

There is a Father (Adonai), the masculine part of G-d (YHVH).
There is a Mother (Ruach Kadesh/Holy Spirit), the feminine part of G-d.
Then there is the Child, a perfect combination of the two energies, a symbol of the union of humans in harmonious coexistance (Y'shua).

The three create one, a trinity. They each have individual personalities, faces, etc. For instance, I can feel the Father during the day more than at night... when I'm sad, at night, in bed, I can feel the Mother comforting me. :) And when I'm frustrated and need help coping, the Child is always there to teach me how to combine the elements of my life into a union that is productive. The Mother still has her Maiden, Mother, and Crone faces. The Father has Prince, King, and Wise Man elements. And the Child has Friend, Counselor, and Master elements. :) They balance out for me.

Obviously, this is NOT for everyone... but it works for me. It completes what always seemed incomplete to me before I found my path. =)

[Ben Trismegistus]

2. Jesus' life definitely was similar to some of the gods, particularly the gods of the Middle East where the dying/rising god concept was so prevalent (though it was everywhere throughout the world, too). Some gods that come to mind: Tammuz, Osiris, Adonis, Ba'al, and Odin...and that's just to name a few. Some have insisted that Jesus was more Pagan than Jewish, and most non-Christians (and even some Christians) believe that Jesus had little or nothing in common with Christianity today.


That's an interesting point. I read a book last year called The Hiram Key, which was ostensibly a book about the history of Freemasonry, but spiraled into an examination of the history of Judeo-Christianity itself. While much of the scholarship in the book is questionable, the authors present a few really interesting theories (completely unproveable, of course).

Their main idea is that the principles of Freemasonry, which are said to be derived from the story of Solomon's Temple, actually date back much further, to the king-making rituals of the ancient Egyptians, based around the story of Osiris and Horus as the old and new king. In their theory, the secrets of the Egyptian theology and rituals left the country with Moses (who may or may not have been a full-blooded member of the Egyptian royal family, rather than a Jew left in a basket), who delivered them to the ancient Semites whom he helped transport to Israel. The rituals were presumed to remain alive in a small and esoteric sect of ancient Israelites, which later grew into the Essene community at Qumrun. By analyzing the Essene documents discovered in the last century (The Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.), the authors described the rites and beliefs of the Essenes as very similar to that of the ancient Egyptians, albeit with a Jewish flavor. They propose that the Essene concept of the Messiah was not the Jewish model, but rather the DOUBLE Messiah of the ancient Egyptians, represented by the twin kingdoms of Northern & Southern Egypt, and by the twin columns of Strength and Wisdom (originally an Egyptian idea, apparently), which feature prominently in Masonic symbolism and appear on either side of the High Priestess in the Rider-Waite tarot deck. The double messiah is personified in a kingly, or political, messiah and a priestly, or religious, messiah. According to the authors, Jesus was presented by the Essenes as the kingly messiah, sent to wrest Israel away from the Romans by force, and Jesus' brother James, a much more conscientious Essene, was presented as the priestly messiah. Apparently, the crucifixion messed all that stuff up, and then Saul of Tarsus comes along, changes his name to Paul, misinterprets everything that the Essenes tell him, and creates a religion.

As I said, these are interesting theories -- more an idea of "it could've happened this way" than anything else. But I do agree that Jesus the man has very little to do with modern Christianity.

[Rain Gnosis]

There is a Father (Adonai), the masculine part of G-d (YHVH).
There is a Mother (Ruach Kadesh/Holy Spirit), the feminine part of G-d.
Then there is the Child, a perfect combination of the two energies, a symbol of the union of humans in harmonious coexistance (Y'shua).

*nods* That's the same sort of thing I'm getting from just starting into the qabalah and also alchemy (so in other words, I'm faaaaaar from an expert, and glad to see someone else sees it kinda that way).

And WhiteDruid, excellent posts! :thumbsup:

[Ice violets]

I hold a belief in a god that is not a Christian God or a double Male/female deity, because I do not believe in Christianity. If you intend to believe in a Christian male god and a Wiccan female it's all up to you. But if being pagan is supposed to be done a certain way then I want nothing to do with it.

[Jenne]

There are some great scholars on this board--and my little meanderings here and there seem so insignificant in comparison! But I'm very grateful for the opportunity to read what you all share with each other, in hopes that in my learning I can also contribute something as well.

In essence, for some background, I left the Christian faith, "walk of life," path --etc.-- a while back. It was the teachings, as well as the close-minded we vs. them mentality of the community, that turned me off.

I was one of those who was brainwashed into believing all the Christian orthodox teachings. Since I was an infant in the church's nursery, I learned Bible verses and their meanings (not according to my own interpretation, but someone else's). It wasn't until I was older and asking questions (it took me til I was in college to come out of the "warm fuzzy I-belong-here" stage long enough to even HAVE original thoughts of my own), that I finally looked around and noticed how it took more faith to believe in things that were getting harder and harder to accept as true. I eventually found that there was something else out there that I actually could believe in and live with on my own, without it being hand-fed to me everyday of my life.

Ha! I'm willing to bet that, in a large way, this is *not* news to you all (or an orginal story)...but it's how I arrived at the Craft. I met people in undergrad who introduced me to books that would be called "the Devil's work" while I was a child. I learned how similar the "big 3" are (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), as well as the evolution of Chrisitianity--how it was a mystic religion at its inception, and it pretty much started out with the kind of reputation that Paganism has today.

I think the biggest turn off for me in The Church once I became an adult was the fact that there was no real role for women (we all know, and it was said earlier in this thread, how male-driven Christianity, Islam and Judaism have been). So of course Paganism with its feminine emphases and embracing of all things "woman" and "equal" between the sexes REALLY reached out to me. I came to see that it would make more sense, to me and my life, if the Church would simply teach that the Trinity was the Father, Mother and the Child, rather than the Father, some vague "Holy Spirit," and His Son. When I read that the ancient Hebrew text of the Old Testament actually gave a feminine aspect to that Holy Spirit, a lot fell into place for me.

Of course, to the orthodox Christian, this sort of thing is absurd, because the Bible of today does not state this to be so, and I currently believe it is pretty hard for them to conceive of something that *isn't* there and taught in Church, but still may be historically true. Not to mention the threat it would pose to something that is fundamentally male-driven.

In terms of societal evolution, if I may be permitted to go there, I think that this is a great time for women, historically speaking. We are returning to our "natural" role here in Western society--a life partner with equal measure. Sure, the progress is slow, but with technology as the new "equalizer," and as we no longer rely on arduous physical tasks and their successful completion to spur on the world economy, women are heralded more and more for their uses and talents, rather than for pleasure, child-bearing and child-rearing.

My husband and I consantly debate the topic of "Is Religion a Reflection of Society or Vice Versa?" I think the conjoining of Christianity and Paganism is only possible in a world where free thought is possible. I'm glad we are getting closer to that kind of existence. Religion is a personal *and* public thing, and it's so refreshing to be able to pursue it in both veins.

Ack! I think I'll stop here, lol! WhiteDruid, you aren't the only one who is long-winded...:smileroll

[AmbivalentMirage]

I hold a belief in a god that is not a Christian God or a double Male/female deity, because I do not believe in Christianity. If you intend to believe in a Christian male god and a Wiccan female it's all up to you. But if being pagan is supposed to be done a certain way then I want nothing to do with it.
I don't think that anyone meant to say that paganism, or even a view of deity is meant to be a certain way. Quite the contrary. We all have our own individual ways of seeing and respecting what is truly one great Divine being and universal energy. :)

You can believe in the Wiccan Goddess, Christian God, or a Doorknob Deity and essentially you are respecting the same energy. Every path has a different destination and different route with different scenery... and I mean, every individual's path. :)

My mom, who is Judeo-Christian, has a saying, "The way is narrow because it is meant for your feet and your feet alone." This refers to the New Testament verse about the way to heaven being straight and narrow. What she is saying is that she (and I too) believes that the verse truly means that the TRUE path is the one that is meant for YOU. Nobody can walk the path that you are meant to walk, and nobody will ever be able to except you.

Religion, on a more scientific view, is an individual experience. Nobody views and experiences things 100% the same way. If we all did, there would be one religion and no diversity. How incredibly boring would that be?!

I got a little off topic, but I just wanted to reply to Ice violet's statement.

[AmbivalentMirage]

I learned how similar the "big 3" are (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), as well as the evolution of Chrisitianity--how it was a mystic religion at its inception, and it pretty much started out with the kind of reputation that Paganism has today.


I can't speak for Islam, being that I am not exceptionally familiar with it. I've read some books, but not hardly enough to make me an expert. However, I can assure you that Judaism incredibly different from Christianity on many levels. Anyway, yes, many ancient mystics had the idea of the big-bang and evolution before scientists. The kabbalistic and more Talmud-based view of creation in Judaism is a concept much like the big bang, except mixed somewhat with the tale from the stories of Maddelena.


I think the biggest turn off for me in The Church once I became an adult was the fact that there was no real role for women (we all know, and it was said earlier in this thread, how male-driven Christianity, Islam and Judaism have been).

Actually, Judaism (sorry, I love disproving things) is not as male-driven as people think. The ancient system SEEMED patriarchal because the Bible was written in a time when patriarchal societies abounded. However, female aspects of the Divine and the importance of women in Jewish culture have always stood strong. :) There was a time when Jewish women worshiped a separate goddess, even! In modern times, Jewish women can be anything that they wish to be, even rabbis. (There is even a woman rabbi leading a lesbian synagogue in L.A. somewhere!)


My husband and I consantly debate the topic of "Is Religion a Reflection of Society or Vice Versa?" I think the conjoining of Christianity and Paganism is only possible in a world where free thought is possible. I'm glad we are getting closer to that kind of existence. Religion is a personal *and* public thing, and it's so refreshing to be able to pursue it in both veins.

While I personally have a distaste for Christianity (but have many Christian friends), I definitely agree here!! It's beautiful seeing that new and old faiths can come together to revive what was once revered and add in the lessons that have come to our world more recently through the latest messengers. ^.^

I don't mean for my reply to seem like an attack on your post... I just like to make sure people understand the differences between mainstream Christianity and Judaism. :)

[Jenne]

I can't speak for Islam, being that I am not exceptionally familiar with it. I've read some books, but not hardly enough to make me an expert. However, I can assure you that Judaism incredibly different from Christianity on many levels.

I know they are different, and I'm sorry if I offended you by lumping them together. But you see, when I studied the big 3 way back when, historically speaking, they all branched from the same tree. So, although in individual practice today they are quite different, they are all cousins, so to speak. At least, this is how *I* choose to view them, whether right or wrong to those who practice them today. And BTW, my hubby is ex-Muslim.



Actually, Judaism (sorry, I love disproving things) is not as male-driven as people think. The ancient system SEEMED patriarchal because the Bible was written in a time when patriarchal societies abounded. However, female aspects of the Divine and the importance of women in Jewish culture have always stood strong. :) There was a time when Jewish women worshiped a separate goddess, even! In modern times, Jewish women can be anything that they wish to be, even rabbis. (There is even a woman rabbi leading a lesbian synagogue in L.A. somewhere!)

Well, I agree that, as a practioner, you have insider views as to the importance of women's roles within the Jewish religion and culture. However, in modern times, most any woman in Western society can be anything she chooses. But that does not mean she has an equal role. I agree that it is quite progressive to have women as rabbis in L.A. But the prototypical "orthodox" rabbi is still male. I know eventually this can change, however, and if what you say is true (and I'm not saying it isn't :)), then this WILL indeed change.


I don't mean for my reply to seem like an attack on your post... I just like to make sure people understand the differences between mainstream Christianity and Judaism. :)

No worries--I know I make some blanket statements and generalizations...if I didn't, it'd be a 3 day post, rather than a 3 minute one, right? :)

[AmbivalentMirage]

A three day post? My eyes hurt just THINKING about it. ;) An ex-Muslim? WOW. That's interesting. What path does he follow now?

[AmbivalentMirage]

But this has not always been the Jewish perspective, nor is it the Jewish perspective for all Jews today. We have to remember that YHVH is the name of the Jewish god. Many Jews studying the Kabballah believe that the four letters of YHVH correspond to four "aspects" of their god -- a Father aspect, a Mother aspect, a Son aspect, and a Daughter aspect. To some Kabbalistic Jews, YHVH is the Great Spirit, and all the gods make up this Great Spirit. Thus it isn't possible to worship any other gods, because all gods make up the Great Spirit.

Very true!! ^.^


I read somewhere that linguistic scholars are saying that the word commonly interpreted "witchcraft" actually translates to a kind of violent sorcery. In other words, magick to harm or kill another. This is not our kind of witchcraft. We believe in harming none. So, in its strictest sense, the biblical prohibition does not include us. Even if it did, that doesn't matter much. There are biblical laws stating that women should not be around men while they're menstruating, or that women should sacrifice doves after menstruation, etc. These things are no longer observed, so why should the prohibition against witchcraft be observed?

Well, those laws ARE still used in Orthodox Judaism (the highest orthodoxy, that is)... and all Torah rules are still in effect, except they've ben translated into modern society. We belive the Bible to be a book that moves with the times. ;) hehehe

You are quite right about witchcraft! This is how I feel comfortable being a Jewitch. You see, the word "witchcraft" means "poison" in the verse that most people spout out. Witches were NOT what we think of today, but the "witches" of that time in Jewish society were actually people who poisoned, killed, etc. "Witch" was simply a term applied later. Rabbis of all ages have practiced different types of magick, most of those types boardering if not blatently becoming witchcraft.

My compliments on a very well informed post! :)

[Jenne]

well, if you ask him, he isn't on any path right now...he's agnostic to some degree, but if you ask him, he just doesn't believe in God, the afterlife of any sort or shape, etc. But he lived through the war in Afghanistan with the Russians, and I think a lot of it stems from that. I think the word for him would be "areligious."

Anyway, he's very accepting of anything I do (tho I know he'd be less so if I was a fundamental Christian, lol), and believe in, etc. Neither of us proselytize, and we want to give our children the benefit of choosing their path in life, which neither of us were allowed to do til we left our parents' homes...:fprisoner

[AmbivalentMirage]

Wow! That's really cool. :) Sounds like a beautiful marriage and family!

[Ben Trismegistus]

Actually, Judaism (sorry, I love disproving things) is not as male-driven as people think. The ancient system SEEMED patriarchal because the Bible was written in a time when patriarchal societies abounded. However, female aspects of the Divine and the importance of women in Jewish culture have always stood strong. :) There was a time when Jewish women worshiped a separate goddess, even! In modern times, Jewish women can be anything that they wish to be, even rabbis. (There is even a woman rabbi leading a lesbian synagogue in L.A. somewhere!)


Well, that's kind of misleading. Whereas there are definitely modern and esoteric sects of Judaism that are more egalitarian, modern mainstream Judaism is still very male-centric. Even though early (very early) Judaism recognized certain feminine aspects of God, when Judaism began as an official organized religion (as Amberlaine will surely tell you when she sees this post), all talk of goddesses were removed - even Asherah, who later morphed into the gnostic Sophia.

Yes, women can be rabbis at reformed or reconstructionist synagogues, but some orthodox synagogues still separate the men from the women, for the alleged reason that seeing the women would make the men think about physical rather than spiritual matters. In fact, the only reason that men are required to wear yamachas and women are not is that women were not considered important enough to have to humble themselves before God. These examples may seem extreme, but orthodox Judaism is still very prevalent in this country.

I'm not trying to disprove or discount your post, but I just wanted to point out that Judaism is still not as liberal and egalitarian as it could be.

[mol]

some orthodox synagogues still separate the men from the women, for the alleged reason that seeing the women would make the men think about physical rather than spiritual matters.

Heh. The only real way to achieve that goal would be to kill the man in question.:lol:

[Ben Trismegistus]

Heh. The only real way to achieve that goal would be to kill the man in question.:lol:

Works for me. :) You know, my wife and I like to play "Annoy the Orthodox", not because we have anything personally against orthodox Jews, but simply because we abhor fundamentalism in all its forms. When we lived in Brooklyn, there were a ton of mean-spirited Orthdox Jews (black suits, black hats, long beards, curly ear-locks, etc.) who would be a complete nuisance on the subway train. They're not supposed to associate with other women at all, so my wife would make a point of sitting down right next to some crotchety-looking orthodox guy, and slide right up close so their legs were touching. The men would go completely apoplectic.

This game was especially funny while she was pregnant.

[AmbivalentMirage]

Works for me. :) You know, my wife and I like to play "Annoy the Orthodox", not because we have anything personally against orthodox Jews, but simply because we abhor fundamentalism in all its forms. When we lived in Brooklyn, there were a ton of mean-spirited Orthdox Jews (black suits, black hats, long beards, curly ear-locks, etc.) who would be a complete nuisance on the subway train. They're not supposed to associate with other women at all, so my wife would make a point of sitting down right next to some crotchety-looking orthodox guy, and slide right up close so their legs were touching. The men would go completely apoplectic.

This game was especially funny while she was pregnant.
LOL!!! That is hillarious!! ;)

[AmbivalentMirage]

Wow, my thoughts have changed a lot on this over the past year or so. I don't think that the two paths necessarily need to compete, but I do believe that they can be blended in various ways. I was raised Catholic and have been a member of a number of Christian religions as well as Jewish. At this time in my life, I feel that I will be Pagan for the rest of my life, but there have been a few twists.

Quite by accident, I've run across a lot of information not just comparing the Catholic saints to pagan gods and goddesses, but states that some are one and the same. And I've recently come to look at Jesus as a god in his own right. No, I'm still not buying the salvation through Christ thing, but I see some incredible similarities in the life of Christ to gods such as Odin and other masters, such as Reiki's Usui. And a friend pointed out that quite a few Christians must think he's a god too, since they pray to him instead of the big guy..........
So... if you were once Jewish... and you're now pagan... doesn't that make you part Jewitch? hehehe j/k, of course ;)

[mol]

This game was especially funny while she was pregnant.

Good grief!

[Ben Trismegistus]

So... if you were once Jewish... and you're now pagan... doesn't that make you part Jewitch? hehehe j/k, of course ;)

This may be off-topic (or might not be, if the topic can be expanded to include "Wiccan Goddess, Jewish God"), but I feel like there's a part of me that will always be Jewish.

When I first told my mother I no longer considered myself Jewish (long before I was pagan - I was simply agnostic for a long time), she would argue with me. She told me that whether or not I believed in the Jewish religion, I'd always be Jewish. And I'm only recently starting to understand what she meant. Unlike Christianity, Judaism is as much a culture and an ethnicity as a religion. So, although I'm no longer spiritually Jewish, I'm still culturally and ethnically Jewish, and can never really reject my heritage.

Do you other former Jews feel the same way?

[AmbivalentMirage]

This may be off-topic (or might not be, if the topic can be expanded to include "Wiccan Goddess, Jewish God"), but I feel like there's a part of me that will always be Jewish.

When I first told my mother I no longer considered myself Jewish (long before I was pagan - I was simply agnostic for a long time), she would argue with me. She told me that whether or not I believed in the Jewish religion, I'd always be Jewish. And I'm only recently starting to understand what she meant. Unlike Christianity, Judaism is as much a culture and an ethnicity as a religion. So, although I'm no longer spiritually Jewish, I'm still culturally and ethnically Jewish, and can never really reject my heritage.

Do you other former Jews feel the same way?
Actually, a part of you is always spiritually Jewish if you want it to be. Maybe not in the practice of the mitzvots and such... but you are connected to the heritage of your people and the spirit of the Torah. :) That's something far greater than the religion of Judaism can ever hold.

I feel very much still Jewish. It's an important part of my identity. Of course, this is because I still observe the holidays, laws, etc. Not everyone is meant to, though. Like all paths, Judaism is not meant for everyone. I personally find something VERY magickal about Hanukkah, Pesach, Yom Kippur, shabbat, the tzedekah, and other Jewish traditions. :) But, that's because it's part of the path that I am called to.

Being Jewish, to me, is almost an honor. I don't mean that in a proud or egotistical way... but I love being Jewish. Even with all the anti-semitism in the world and stigmas against Jews in modern society... I wouldn't give it up for anything. :)

[Ben Trismegistus]

I feel very much still Jewish. It's an important part of my identity. Of course, this is because I still observe the holidays, laws, etc. Not everyone is meant to, though. Like all paths, Judaism is not meant for everyone. I personally find something VERY magickal about Hanukkah, Pesach, Yom Kippur, shabbat, the tzedekah, and other Jewish traditions. :) But, that's because it's part of the path that I am called to.

Well, that's what I mean. I've abandoned the path itself. To me, the Jewish dogma was too constricting, and in modern times had gotten too distorted -- Judaism for me became more about cultural superiority and exclusivity than about spirituality.

Since I've left the organized religion of Judaism, I've been able to approach some of the spiritual aspects of the religion on my own terms -- Kabbalah, early Israelite polytheism, etc.

As for Hanukkah, Pesach, etc., I still enjoy them, but from a cultural and familial standpoint. For me, it's about sharing a tradition with my family, not a religious ritual.

As always, YMMV.

[MysticMoonQueen]

Another example of mistaken translation is the witch of Endor. She was NOT a witch, but a seer. Why did she get that title when there were men in the Bible who were prophets? She was dubbed a witch, because what she had to say wasn't good and she was NOT specified as a believer in God. JMHO Back during the days of King James, who was public enemy # 1? Witches. The King James version was written to "suit" the King. So, what better way to try to turn things around and make it seem to be a sin to practice magick/paganism? There are many instances in the Bible where things were translated improperly, just by ignorance. Also, there were some books left OUT of the King James version. Some older Bibles will include these books, but it's not common to find them in there today, unless you look in a Christian book store or something.

I consider myself a Christian Wiccan. I feel there is a way to balance both paths, since I follow CHRIST not necessarily the God we know as THE GOD. The true meaning of the word Christian is to be "Christ-like". In any New Testament I have read, I get the feeling that Christ was a kind, patient man. To ME, Christian-Wiccanism is following the example set by Christ and, of course, the Wiccan path, which I technically don't think is a contradiction at ALL. There is more than ONE deity that we can follow.

For me, as I grew up, Catholic and Baptist faiths were as different as paganism and christianity seem to some. My father was raised Catholic, and was later banned from his church for practicing witchcraft (at least that's the term they used). So, he converted to Methodist. Meanwhile, my mother was strictly baptist. My mother always mentioned how there were aspects about Catholicism which bothered her. There were many different things that were acceptable for my father that were NOT for my mother. Such as baptism. My mother was always taught that baptism is only to occur once you get "saved", so you must be at least the age of consent. While, as you all know, in Catholicism baptizing is a MUST for any baby. So, even in Chrisitanity, you have contradictions.

As a matter of fact, I found a passage in Genesis where it TOTALLY defies the theory of Adam being the first man! (that was a little "aside" by the way) Just wanted to bring that up to show that all the things we perceive about religion can be changed into our own personal preferences. How many pastors have taught the Adam and Eve theory as FACT, when all it would take is perusing the passages carefully to find where it says otherwise?

[MysticMoonQueen]

I know I haven't gotten any replies on my last reply, but I wanted to add some stuff. Not trying to beat the proverbial horse, of course. (why did I just get a mental picture of Mr. Ed?) lol ;)

Do many of you agree that Voodoo is a legitimate pagan religion? I watched a documentary on voodooism, and I was intrigued by the fact that when it was first introduced to the U.S. some of the deities they worshipped resembled christian saints. So, to make it more "acceptable" (and i'm paraphrasing), they used the christian saints to take the place of the actual deities (as in Catholicism, where deities were turned to saints, so it seems to be a cycle).

As far as the christians making pagan God/desses into Saints, they did this with various things to make pagans more willing to convert, it seems. To discourage worship in Lucifer, Pan, etc. the description of a horned god as the devil was presented. Lucifer's name was even added (as in the Bible it is said that he goes by many names, as you probably already know). BUT, if you look in certain passages of the Bible, Satan is described as BEAUTIFUL. While the horned one is beautiful to behold, how can he have fit the horned god description that they made sound so scary and ugly? In Catholicism, the other less "threatening" god/desses were changed to saints, since they KNEW that they couldn't take away ALL of the pagan beliefs and traditions. It was a compromise of sorts.

Also, a tidbit of info: Many baptists believe Catholicism to be of a "false" religion, due to the "worship" of saints (because catholics pray to their saints, the majority of baptists believe this to be putting other gods before their God). Such a contradiction even in the same faith.

I also found a link that is interesting, if anyone wants to look at it. It explains how many pantheons have been mixed over time.

http://www.hollow-hill.com/%7Egrotto/mixing_pantheons.html

I am not trying to force my views down anyone's throat. This is kind of a personal topic for me, because on another board, I was slammed HARD for my beliefs. I am so glad to see that this hasn't happened on this board. You guys are really awesome and have such patience and are at least WILLING to try to understand the concept. :)

[WhiteDruid]

Hey all. Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've just been extremely busy. You've all had some really insightful things to say, and I've read them all. Good stuff.


Another example of mistaken translation is the witch of Endor. She was NOT a witch, but a seer. Why did she get that title when there were men in the Bible who were prophets? She was dubbed a witch, because what she had to say wasn't good and she was NOT specified as a believer in God. JMHO Back during the days of King James, who was public enemy # 1? Witches. The King James version was written to "suit" the King. So, what better way to try to turn things around and make it seem to be a sin to practice magick/paganism? There are many instances in the Bible where things were translated improperly, just by ignorance. Also, there were some books left OUT of the King James version. Some older Bibles will include these books, but it's not common to find them in there today, unless you look in a Christian book store or something.I've always found the prophetess of Endor extremely interesting. I really don't understand why she is considered evil. Surely if she was so evil, the Hebrew god would not have allowed her to conjure the spirit of one of his greatest prophets so that he could speak to King Saul? Ah well, those silly Christians! ;) As for the other books of the Bible you're referring to, they're often called the deuterocanonical books and/or the apocrypha. The former is more accurate than the latter. Anyway, my favorite of the deutrocanoical books is the Book of Tobit. It's the only book in the Bible where an Angel is so involved, and it's also the only book in the Bible where someone good -- and an Archangel, no less -- uses magic, plain and simple.


Do many of you agree that Voodoo is a legitimate pagan religion? I watched a documentary on voodooism, and I was intrigued by the fact that when it was first introduced to the U.S. some of the deities they worshipped resembled christian saints. So, to make it more "acceptable" (and i'm paraphrasing), they used the christian saints to take the place of the actual deities (as in Catholicism, where deities were turned to saints, so it seems to be a cycle).If by Pagan, you mean native religions, then Vodun, Santeria, Yoruba, etc. are all Pagan religions. But if by Pagan you mean earth-based and some of the other associations that have become attached to Paganism, then those religions are not Pagan. Strictly speaking, all of those religions have evolved from African tribal religions that were brought to places like Cuba, Haiti, Louisiana, etc. when the slaves were brought from Africa to the Americas. Many of the slaves were forced to convert to Catholicism, so they identified their orishas with certain Catholic saints. Of course they knew that the saints were not actually their orishas, but they used the names and images of the saints to hide their religion from the Catholics. This tradition has carried over, and many practitioners of Vodun and Santeria still use Catholic icons to honor the orishas.

You have a lot of insightful things to say, Mystic. I hope you'll keep it up!

[mothwench]

awww, the poor dead horse.
but, i'm glad this came up again, as someone recently posted the following bible passages in this other forum i'm in, and there's not been much discussion on it there. i was never actually aware they existed, i only knew of a passage that says: thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. but then i never read the bible properly.
get a load of this: :hairraise

1 SAMUEL 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of WITCHCRAFT, and
stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected
the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2 CHRONICLES 33: 6 And he caused his children to pass through the
fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and
used enchantments, and used WITCHCRAFT, and dealt with a familiar
spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the
LORD, to provoke him to anger.

GALATIANS 5: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20
Idolatry, WITCHCRAFT, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the
which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that
they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

nice, huh?
bb, the mothwench :smoke:

[♪Hazel♪]

Okie dokie... I was raised for most of my life as a Roman Catholic.... I was baptised, I was confirmed... and took the sacrement of the Eucharist and blah blah....
Although.. I remember reading this part in the Bible for the first time.. about Magic and Paganism ,.. I found it disgusting.
I believe the Bible is extremely contradictory!!

but i have to go to class so i will post more later!!

[♪Hazel♪]

Okay...-breathes- So on a less rushed note... :drool:

I have been taught since I was little about heaven, and hell, and that I should pray to God/Jesus/theFather.

I believed for most of my life very strongly in these things.. without having looked elsewhere for any other type of possibilities there might be. I simply figured- 'this is how it is.'
But only because thats how people told me it was.
I truly believe in being supportive of other people's beliefs, and found it extremely stupid about the wars and killing and things that go on in the name of Jesus Christ...
And , for example other religions as well... Like Muslims killing others for not believing in THEIR god...
Like really,.. how stupid and childish is that? And they're adults, of course, starting wars because they think everyone but themselves is wrong.
I think Christianity (Cathlocism) is no better. Ever since forever ago... Burning people they called "Worshippers of satan" ... With no actual proof, and to gain power in their own religion .. kind of a big sign of "FEAR US... YOU MUST WORSHIP OUR GOD OR YOU WILL DIE"...
It bugged me incredibly that I was baptized under a religion that had such a grotesque history. They claim to believe in life!! Some living they encourage...:grrrrr:

Still , I like going to church and meeting with the people there... I like the atmosphere at our church.. people who dont even know you, smile at you and say 'Good Morning'... or ask your names and wish you a Merry Christmas... I wish everyone could be like that outside of church as well. Wouldnt that make people happier about their day if they had a friendly conversation with a stranger and ended up making a new friend?

So, as I was saying before, ... I remember the first time I read in the Bible about Paganism... And it really made me angry the Bible would say these things about another religion they knew nothing about!! Something about Pagans using "false and vain symbols" and how "you will have no salvation"...
So, I decided to find out what was so horrible about this wretched religion they hate so much.
And...

** Its about the trees... its about the earth under our feet... about naturalism and respect for all living things.. and, yes! MAGIC!! WOO!! true, real, actual magic. ***

I was so interested... I was so excited...
but I needed to find a medium between what Ive always been used to believing in,and what my soul was needing me to believe in. I felt almost guilty sometimes.. when I read things or heard things in church about "straying away from god" and "Witchcraft is a demise by the devil to steer you away from the church of god"... blah blah...:blushake:

I wasnt sure what to think! Its so much easier to feel wrong when everyone else thinks differently from you.

..But, I remembered something from when I was very little... about 5 or 6... and I dont know why its stuck in my mind.. but....
I saw how happy and smiley the priest was, and thought... 'Im gonna be like him when I grow up!'
So once when I got to sit on his lap... He asked me "So my little one, what would you like to be when you grow up?"
I enthusiastically replied "Im gonna be a priest!! And Ill get to wear all those pretty clothes like you!" with a huge smile on my face...
..There was a pause.. I remember the look on my parents faces,... then, the priest broke out in laughter. :T
He started laughing at me! Then my parents joined him.. and I sat there, looking around.. the smile gone... wondering what was so funny....I honestly thought they would be pleased with my reply...

"No.... no dear." He said..."What else would you like to be? Pick something else."
"Why?!" I said.. I was getting upset now.. I jumped off his lap and looked up at my daddy.."Why cant I be a priest? What's wrong daddy??... I wanna be a priest!"
My parents were looking serious now, and they took my hand to walk out and leave.
As we were leaving, I asked him again. "Daddy! I wanna be a priest!"
"No, sweetheart." He said.
"Girls dont become priests."...
"Why not??"
"Because God is a boy."
:razz:


So now, much like AmbivalentMirage... Ive found that there are similarities between the religions... Why cant God be a Goddess?? Or why isnt there Both?!

I do believe in a trinity... the Father.. (Just in female embodiment) ***Goddess***
the son.. **(the God)**
and the Holy spirit *(the divine prescence in all things.)*

All in all... they are one. One "GOD"
Like circle, with three parts holding hands. ^_^
So, it works for me!!
:clapping:

[Prudence Rose]

It is my personal belief that the God the Christians worship and The Goddess of the pagans are one. I believe that they are a union, kind of like a divine marriage, creating one God. The mother rules the planets and the Father rules heavens. Together the rule the universe. This is what I believe. One of the most interesting quotes in the Bible to me, leave this to your own interpretation as I'm sure you will, "We shall create man in our image...... So man and woman were created" That might not be word for word, but that's still the bulk of it. BB, Prudence Rose

[Devin]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Leslie

[Deranged Hermit]

Several years ago I was doing research on various religions. I was brought up to be christian, but could never buy into the whole "everyone else is going to hell" idea. Gandhi's in hell? Sign me up. But, I digress... I read that the King James and other "modern" versions of the Bible were edited by the catholic church (I can't remember in what time period...) and they took out all the stuff that they didn't agree with. So who knows what the Bible said to begin with? Perhaps it said, "listen to your heart, be one with nature, and go feed the squirrels" :colorful:
Peace
Judy

[ambermystique]

I know of many people that have converted from Catholicism to Paganism or Wicca and carry many of their Christian beliefs with them still.

I, myself, do have some lasting effects of Catholic rituals and beliefs. I do believe in the Christian "God." That is who I speak to when I talk to the Lord (God) and the Lady (Goddess).

I am very faithful to the belief that we are all on winding paths to the same destination. We just take different routes. So, on that point of view, it really doesn't matter who you are praying/communicating with, as long as you believe in a higher power that ultimately is the Creator of All.

Just my personal opinion. I am in the process of trying to be very tolerant and accepting of other people's religions and belief systems. However, I am running into some difficulty with people who believe its their way or the highway - no matter what, not open for discussion. It hurts my feelings a bit that I am expected to be open to their religious beliefs, but they cannot bear to listen to mine, let alone respect them.

brightest blessings, peace and love,
amber:chatty:

[kithic]

Several years ago I was doing research on various religions. I was brought up to be christian, but could never buy into the whole "everyone else is going to hell" idea. Gandhi's in hell? Sign me up. But, I digress... I read that the King James and other "modern" versions of the Bible were edited by the catholic church (I can't remember in what time period...) and they took out all the stuff that they didn't agree with. So who knows what the Bible said to begin with? Perhaps it said, "listen to your heart, be one with nature, and go feed the squirrels" :colorful:
Peace
Judy

i think that you have the right idea paganisum and christianity are very simular