Where do non-wiccan witches stand?

[Mouse]

I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft, not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.) Witchcraft and wicca are very closely related, but they are not the same.. Is witchcraft a valid religon or just wicca?

did that make scence? :ggrief:
~ miriam

[LittleRhiannon]

Witchcraft isn't a religion, valid or otherwise.

When you say witch, and it doesn't mean magical practicioner, what does it mean, exactly?

[Aidron]

I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft, not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.) Witchcraft and wicca are very closely related, but they are not the same.. Is witchcraft a valid religon or just wicca?

did that make scence? :ggrief:
~ miriam


Witchcraft is not a religion. It is a craft, simple as that. It has no doctrine or dogma. It can be applied to various religions and faiths all across the globe with varying degrees of success.

It does in fact denote a magical practioner, most often those who focus on low or folk magic, but not always.

[Mowri]

"Where do non-wiccan witches stand?"...in the hearts and minds of all good catholics...yummy.
haha I jest of course!

As far as I've ever been taught by great grandmother, and parents...In scottland Witch ment/means wise...or (sometimes used in its basterdized form) meant Wise woman..and therefore "Witchcraft" ment wisecraft or way of the wise. Its by no means a formal religion like wicca...and I dont believe can be recognised as something it is not. (Speaking as a non wiccan-witch, i knowit really gets my pantaloons in a knot when i hear that a wiccan, practicing for 4 years is recognized clergy inmy home city...yet a lifelong witch/pagan cannot be..simply because of a term...but thats niether here nor there...so please no one take offence to that ramble)

[Ivy Artemisia]

Witchcraft isn't a religion, valid or otherwise.


I second...er third that. I feel that witchcraft is a practice... much like meditation or prayer and could be applied to other religions...

[Tinara]

I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon ~ miriam

*laughing*

I wonder if this is the same article that I read and ranted to my friends about for at least a good hour today?

Hmmm it is my opinion that witchcraft is an act and not a religion.

Many different "religions" practice witchcraft and a huge basis of any religion is the worship of deities, one can practice witchcraft without worshipping a deity.

So to me at least, that would indicate that witchcraft isnt a religion.

*still chuckling that I just commented on this to some friends......small world*

[Mouse]

Thanks to everyone for their view points..

LittleRhiannon, When i say 'witch' not refering to 'magical practitioner' i'm meaning people who practice witchcraft as a religon, wheather or not they use magick, similar to the practice of wicca but without the dogma. And although witchraft isnt a religon (as has been stated here) there are people who practise it as one, these are the people i am refering to.
hope that clears that up :P

[LoriSage]

Definitely a practice. The focus is on manipulating energy to effect change - and that can be done by anyone regardless of religious persuasion.

-Lori

[Aidron]

Thanks to everyone for their view points..

LittleRhiannon, When i say 'witch' not refering to 'magical practitioner' i'm meaning people who practice witchcraft as a religon, wheather or not they use magick, similar to the practice of wicca but without the dogma. And although witchraft isnt a religon (as has been stated here) there are people who practise it as one, these are the people i am refering to.
hope that clears that up :P


Witchcraft cannot be practiced as a religion, for it is not one. Religions inherently contain dogma, therefore it again cannot be practiced as a religion. I know you realize (perhaps if only now after this thread) that witchcraft is not a religion, but that in itself denotes that it cannot be practiced as one. It can be incooperated into your own individual philosophical ideas, but that does not make your magic the spiritual path, your beliefs do.

[Carickah]

On there feet.:alol:

But seriously, I agree with these folks on this. As far as religion is concerned, if someone is professing witchcraft to be their religion, then I might be inclined to thing that they are either referring to wicca or they simply are not sure how to label their beliefs.


k

[Dark Phoenix]

Since Witchcraft is not a religion but craft is why you can have non-pagan witchs like a person I know who is a jewish witch.

[WingedTigerChild]

Since Witchcraft in not a religion but craft is why you can have non-pagan witchs like a person I know who is a jewish witch. For the simple reason that it [witchcraft] is not a religion, but something that can be incorporated into a religion/spiritual path.

[Nepheria]

Here's my two cents. I am a Witch--Meaning this, I am Spiritual-Not Religious.

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[WingedTigerChild]

I am a witch and/or magical practitioner who makes her own path. I have no religion really, though I do borrow many of the ethics of the Unitarian Universalist church.

[Temptation]

Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion. Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily incorporate the concept of any particular deity.

[Faery-Wings]

Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion. Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily incorporate the concept of any particular deity.
I am not Wiccan, but I am a witch- a witch that is has her practice deeply rooted in spirituality. If someone asks what religion I am, I would answer Pagan. but I am a religious witch. I have a dogma- but it is my own, and no one answers to it but me.

[Aidron]

Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion. Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily incorporate the concept of any particular deity.


Your definition just further supports the point I am attempting to make in that witchcraft is not a religion. Look at any two witches. Seriously, pick any two. You will not find any two that hold the same identical beliefs, values, and attitudes. Therefore, since there is no status quo to go by, no dogma, it cannot be a religion. It is just like an artist. Each artist has their own style, their own techniques, their own vision and they decide how they wish to use their talent. While logic and wisdom may be involved in their art, it does not make it a religion.

[misschief]

Where do non-wiccan witches stand? --wherever they want, usually on the floor.

[Temptation]

Your definition just further supports the point I am attempting to make in that witchcraft is not a religion. Look at any two witches. Seriously, pick any two. You will not find any two that hold the same identical beliefs, values, and attitudes. Therefore, since there is no status quo to go by, no dogma, it cannot be a religion. It is just like an artist. Each artist has their own style, their own techniques, their own vision and they decide how they wish to use their talent. While logic and wisdom may be involved in their art, it does not make it a religion.

I disagree.
Religion is a very personal thing and, as you say, no two people view it in the same way. Which brings me to ask again: Who decides what is or isn't a religion?
I can have my own personal set of values, beliefs and attitudes and decide to call it a religion. Others may chose to follow in my path or not. I will still call it my religion. Who has the right to come along and tell me that I can't call my own private beliefs a religion just because it's not part of a dogma and is not universally recognised?
Just some thoughts. :)

[Aidron]

I disagree.
Religion is a very personal thing and, as you say, no two people view it in the same way. Which brings me to ask again: Who decides what is or isn't a religion?

The definition of religion. A standing dogma must be present and it must be organized to a degree, though this will vary from religion to religion. Since witchcraft has no dogma and is not organized in this fashion, it is therefore not one.


I can have my own personal set of values, beliefs and attitudes and decide to call it a religion. Others may chose to follow in my path or not. I will still call it my religion. Who has the right to come along and tell me that I can't call my own private beliefs a religion just because it's not part of a dogma and is not universally recognised?
Just some thoughts. :)

You are welcome to refer to your faith as you wish. However, it is an inaccurate title and thus you will be met with resistance in referencing it as such. It would be the same as any person referring to the sky as the ocean simply because have much in common; they are both blue, vast and apparently endless, they both contain hydrogen and other similar gasses, and contain their own unique enviroments with life and other conditions. Close, but not technically an accurate observation to refer to them as one in the same.

[Ben Trismegistus]

LittleRhiannon, When i say 'witch' not refering to 'magical practitioner' i'm meaning people who practice witchcraft as a religon, wheather or not they use magick, similar to the practice of wicca but without the dogma. And although witchraft isnt a religon (as has been stated here) there are people who practise it as one, these are the people i am refering to.
hope that clears that up :P
Those witches who say that they practice witchcraft as a religion are generally practicing a pagan religion in conjunction with the craft of witchcraft. Because the religion itself is usually eclectic and doesn't have a name in itself, those witches tend to erroneously think of witchcraft as their religion, although witchcraft is nothing but a magical system making use of thaumaturgy.

[Temptation]

The definition of religion. A standing dogma must be present and it must be organized to a degree, though this will vary from religion to religion. Since witchcraft has no dogma and is not organized in this fashion, it is therefore not one.

See, that's where I disagree. The way I understand the definition of religion, and there is more than one definition, it doesn't necessarily include a Deity, let alone a dogma.
What you're describing is organised religion. There are other kinds of religions and spiritual belief systems that give their followers the freedom to explore their spirituality wihtout any "Book of Rules" to refer back to, or any leaders to look up to.

The spiritual side of Witchcraft can be called a religion as far as I'm concerned. The practical side of Witchcraft, I'll agree is not a religion, it's just a craft.

[Storm]

Witchcraft is energy working. If you are spiritual that can be your religion if thats how you see spirituality. But simple energy working is not. Not everyone practices witchcraft religiously, others do. Just because YOU practice witchcraft religiously doesn't make witchcraft itself a religion.

[Storm]

The spiritual side of Witchcraft can be called a religion as far as I'm concerned. The practical side of Witchcraft, I'll agree is not a religion, it's just a craft.
Just to point out, there are no Sides to witchcraft. It simply is what it is. Yes the two often go hand in hand, which is a partnership, rather than say, flip sides of a same coin.

[Temptation]

Just to point out, there are no Sides to witchcraft. It simply is what it is. Yes the two often go hand in hand, which is a partnership, rather than say, flip sides of a same coin.

Hey, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I'm a totally non-religious Witch. But I do know some people who consider Witchcraft their religion because of the spiritual connection they feel with Nature and all its forces.

[Morgandria]

The spiritual side of Witchcraft can be called a religion as far as I'm concerned. The practical side of Witchcraft, I'll agree is not a religion, it's just a craft.

You may have a spirituality you are calling witchcraft, but that would be incorrect, and in many cases misleading. Your beliefs may be related to witchcraft, but they are not witchcraft in and of themselves.

[Lunacie]

What is the legal definition of a religion?



http://www.icrf.com/articles/casino.htm (http://www.icrf.com/articles/casino.htm)





Is Witchcraft a religion?

http://www.erisiantrubble.com/essays/religion.htm (http://www.erisiantrubble.com/essays/religion.htm)





Witchcraft IS a religion (seems to equate Witchcraft and Wicca though)

http://www.calissta.com/legal.htm (http://www.calissta.com/legal.htm)

[Calen]

I'm a witch, but I'm a Pagan witch, and I consider the Pagan part to be the religion, not the witch part. It's all part of my spiritual stuff, but I would have to agree that witchcraft itself is not a religion, as it can be used by anyone.

Witches who consider the Craft itself to be their religion might try disecting their beliefs, to find which part is the religion, and which part the craft. Witches who believe in a God and/or Goddess would probably be Pagan witches, et cetera.

[DebLipp]

Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion.

No, because witchcraft isn't a set of beliefs, values, and attitudes. Witchcraft is a practice. If you have a set of beliefs, values, and attitudes that constitute your religion, it isn't witchcraft. Witchcraft is a magical practice. Period.

Now, if you practice Pagan witchcraft then your religion is Paganism. If you practice Christian witchcraft then your religion is Christianity. If you practice Wiccan witchcraft then your religion is Wicca.

[Ben Gruagach]

Witchcraft is a tool that can be used within a religious context but in itself is not a religion.

A comparable analogy would be prayer. Prayer is certainly a part of what many people do in lots of religions, but prayer itself is not a religion.

Witchcraft doesn't have a specific set of beliefs, values, or attitudes that are consistent among all witches either. There are witches who believe in a single deity (and are monotheistic), witches who are duotheistic, witches who are polytheistic, and I wouldn't be surprised either to find witches who are atheist or agnostic.

Whether a specific witch believes that natural forces (the earth, the elements, plants and animals) are worthy of religious respect depends on their religious affiliation and not their status as a witch. There are certainly many witches who revere the earth and natural things, but this is not universal among witches. You can be a witch and believe the natural world is yours to dominate and use up on a whim and be just as much a witch as any other.

Not all witches have the same ethical standards either. Many Pagan (specifically Wiccan) witches hold some variation of the Wiccan Rede as part of their philosophy, but even among Wiccans this is not universal. And there are certainly witches out there who have no problem with doing curses or otherwise "harmful" spells. You can be a Satanic witch just like you can be a Wiccan witch or a Christian witch or a Jewish witch. And even each of those variations has an enormous amount of variety too. But the religion again is a distinct part of who they are or what they are doing and the witchcraft part is done in their particular religious context. The witchcraft part is not the religion, but is probably better described as something they are doing as part of their religion.

[Aidron]

See, that's where I disagree. The way I understand the definition of religion, and there is more than one definition, it doesn't necessarily include a Deity, let alone a dogma.
What you're describing is organised religion. There are other kinds of religions and spiritual belief systems that give their followers the freedom to explore their spirituality wihtout any "Book of Rules" to refer back to, or any leaders to look up to.

The spiritual side of Witchcraft can be called a religion as far as I'm concerned. The practical side of Witchcraft, I'll agree is not a religion, it's just a craft.


I suggest you pick up a dictionary as you are very misinformed. Religion is organized. Accept that. The level of organization does vary, but one thing remains the same, they all possess organization to a degree. You are confusing spirituality with religion, and they are simply not the same. Religion always includes a dogma. Always. Again, please realize this and accept that your perceptions of religion are not factual. You may feel as you wish, but the validity behind your argument is non-existant since it cannot be proven with facts I'm afraid.

Many religions and spiritual practices do offer freedom to explore other paths and to educate themself, but again the amount varies just as it does with organization.

There is no spiritual side to witchcraft. It is a magical practice, a craft, a system of magic used to manifest change. You may have spiritual beliefs, many witches do, but that does not make witchcraft inherently religious or spiritual, it makes you religious or spiritual.

[Temptation]

I suggest you pick up a dictionary as you are very misinformed. Religion is organized. Accept that. The level of organization does vary, but one thing remains the same, they all possess organization to a degree. You are confusing spirituality with religion, and they are simply not the same. Religion always includes a dogma. Always. Again, please realize this and accept that your perceptions of religion are not factual. You may feel as you wish, but the validity behind your argument is non-existant since it cannot be proven with facts I'm afraid.

Many religions and spiritual practices do offer freedom to explore other paths and to educate themself, but again the amount varies just as it does with organization.

There is no spiritual side to witchcraft. It is a magical practice, a craft, a system of magic used to manifest change. You may have spiritual beliefs, many witches do, but that does not make witchcraft inherently religious or spiritual, it makes you religious or spiritual.

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't subscribe to these ideas. I just know a lot of people who do.
Religion means nothing to me, because I don't have one. But I do respect the people who feel that Witchcraft is their religion. I really don't have a problem with definitions or labels.

And you're right, I am spiritual, not religious. But I have had conversations with people who claim that the two are one and the same. I tried the same arguments you're using here to no avail. In the end, I was able to see their point, while not necessarily agreeing with them. The line between the two concepts is very fine.

Oh, and I have picked up a dictionary, several in fact. I'm afraid none of them said that religion was, by definition, always organised. It was just one of the many definitions given. :)

[LacyRoze]

Webster's definition of religion.....

Re`li´gion Pronunciation: rė`lĭj´ŭn
n.1.The (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/The) outward (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/outward) act (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/act) or (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/or) form (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/form) by (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/by) which (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/which) men (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/men) indicate (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/indicate) their (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/their) recognition (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/recognition) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) existence (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/existence) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) god (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/god) or (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/or) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) gods (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/gods) having (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/having) power (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/power) over (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/over) their (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/their) destiny (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/destiny), to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) whom (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/whom) obedience (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/obedience), service (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/service), and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) honor (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/honor) are (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/are) due (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/due); 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a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) system (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/system) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) faith (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/faith) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) worship (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/worship); a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) manifestation (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/manifestation) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) piety (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/piety); as (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/as), ethical (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/ethical) religions (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/religions); monotheistic (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/monotheistic) religions (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/religions); natural (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/natural) religion; revealed (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/revealed) religion; the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) religion of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) Jews (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Jews); the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) religion of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) idol (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/idol) worshipers (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/worshipers).

2.Specifically (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Specifically), conformity (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/conformity) in (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/in) faith (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/faith) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) life (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/life) to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) precepts (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/precepts) inculcated (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/inculcated) in (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/in) the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) Bible (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Bible), respecting (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/respecting) the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) conduct (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/conduct) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) life (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/life) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) duty (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/duty) toward (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/toward) God (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/God) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) man (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/man); the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) Christian (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Christian) faith (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/faith) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) practice (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/practice).

3.(R. C. Ch.) A (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/A) monastic (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/monastic) or (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/or) religious (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/religious) order (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/order) subject (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/subject) to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) regulated (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/regulated) mode (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/mode) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) life (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/life); the (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/the) religious (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/religious) state (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/state); as (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/as), to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) enter (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/enter) religion.

4.Strictness (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Strictness) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) fidelity (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/fidelity) in (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/in) conforming (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/conforming) to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) any (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/any) practice (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/practice), as (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/as) if (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/if) it (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/it) were (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/were) an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) enjoined (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/enjoined) rule (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/rule) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) conduct (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/conduct).

[Aidron]

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't subscribe to these ideas. I just know a lot of people who do.
Religion means nothing to me, because I don't have one. But I do respect the people who feel that Witchcraft is their religion. I really don't have a problem with definitions or labels.

And you're right, I am spiritual, not religious. But I have had conversations with people who claim that the two are one and the same. I tried the same arguments you're using here to no avail. In the end, I was able to see their point, while not necessarily agreeing with them. The line between the two concepts is very fine.

Oh, and I have picked up a dictionary, several in fact. I'm afraid none of them said that religion was, by definition, always organised. It was just one of the many definitions given. :)


Well, as I have already said, they are welcome to believe as they wish, but they will be met with resistance as their point of view holds little validity and can be disproven by factual evidence. I don't much care, but I do so hate to see people look unintentionally foolish over something so basic and simple as semantics and appropriate definitions.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Here's the thing. The dictionary definitions of things like "pagan", "witch", and "religion" just don't really apply to their current usage. Religio-centric terms are defined in the majority by the majority religion, so the definitions are, by their very nature, outdated.

Here's the easiest definition of religion that I have come up with.

Spirituality is the belief in forces beyond our mundane universe, specifically deities.

Religion is spirituality plus practice. If you take a spiritual belief and put a defined ritual with it, you've got religion.

[Temptation]

Here's the thing. The dictionary definitions of things like "pagan", "witch", and "religion" just don't really apply to their current usage. Religio-centric terms are defined in the majority by the majority religion, so the definitions are, by their very nature, outdated.

Here's the easiest definition of religion that I have come up with.

Spirituality is the belief in forces beyond our mundane universe, specifically deities.

Religion is spirituality plus practice. If you take a spiritual belief and put a defined ritual with it, you've got religion.

Sounds good to me, Ben. :)

[wakywitch]

Witchcraft is not a religion. It is a craft, simple as that. It has no doctrine or dogma. It can be applied to various religions and faiths all across the globe with varying degrees of success.



Agreed.

[Morrighan61]

n.1.The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.

Going by this "official" definition?

What I have been practicing for over 25 years certainly IS a religion.

I honor my Deity, which in this case is a God-Goddess archtype with many faces both masculine and feminine. I believe (He/She) exists and have faith in them and in that they love me and can influence my life. I have ways of doing ritual to honor them.

Witchcraft is the magickal art of taking things out of nature, of bending them to your will and changing things to suit you, but it is also the act of loving nature and living in communion with it and that which made it. Of healing and loving, and giving energy back to the universe.

Sometimes it's about just BEING, not bending....

For the record I could never cast another spell again in my lifetime and I would still be a practicing Witch.

I don't have to "bend" or "do" anything to participate in the Craft. Everytime I simply go outside and commune with nature I am practicing my faith, and conducting a religious service of a kind, even when it's only a one on one thing...

My religion which happens to be WITCHCRAFT, not Wicca.

Just for the record though I later studied Celtic Wicca, I was actually taught a strega-like form of folk witchcraft as a kid.

I was taught by a coven.

(Yes, I intentionally used the other "C" word because it was an old-style coven and not a Wiccan Circle.)

These older ladies were Witches, and what they were doing, that had almost NOTHING in common with the practices of modern day Wiccans. These were women who were practicing their old-world religion as their mothers and grandmothers had done before them.
They didn't just "make it up" or get their "book" from Gerald Gardner and crew, they were REAL Witches and pretty secretive about it. They were fine herbalists and teachers among other things.

Watchtowers? Chanting a la Reclaiming?

Nope.

They never did any of that...

Sorry, I was far too busy learning what aconite could be used for, what it's folk names were to worry about things like that. We had our rituals but they were simple things. Light a candle on a certain day to honor the Goddess. Burn an herb and ask for something you needed...

They also incidentally went to church and had a public affiliation with the RCC as most women of their day did. But when they got home, the rosary beads were used to cast spells, and count blessings, and the VM statue in the kitchen was also a stand in for Diana and Tana and so forth...They had absolutely no problem as seeing her as the feminine side of the same God they paid lip service to in church, none...

Nor do I....

Wicca is an interesting modern religion but it's practitioner's are not the only ones who can claim the title of "Witch." WICCA may only be a few decades old, but Witchcraft has been alive and well for centuries and no amount of historical rewrites claiming otherwise can make me believe otherwise.

No, it wasn't organized in the sense that a church is.

(On the contrary most Witches were probably going to church AND giving honor to Diana or whoever at home...)

BUT, IMHO the Craft is BOTH Art and Religion...

Me, I happen to practice it as BOTH...

Yeah, a Witch can be a Jew, or a Christian, or just a merry lil Pagan. but in all these faiths is her/his religion. The outer trappings matter far less than what's inside...Call up Isis, call up Diana, call up Mary...

To a "Witch" what is the difference?

Honestly, not much...

My 2 cents...

[Rudas Starblaze]

ok, im a witch, not a wiccan, so this is my veiw. wicca is a religion based on paganism. witchcraft does not require a religion. the religious choices of a witch is souly based on what we want to believe. thus making witchcraft an art or a practice.

[Mau]

I am not Wiccan, but I am a witch- a witch that is has her practice deeply rooted in spirituality. If someone asks what religion I am, I would answer Pagan. but I am a religious witch. I have a dogma- but it is my own, and no one answers to it but me.


But Paganism isn't a religion either.

[morrigen]

Witchcraft is not a religion. It is a craft, simple as that. It has no doctrine or dogma. It can be applied to various religions and faiths all across the globe with varying degrees of success.

It does in fact denote a magical practioner, most often those who focus on low or folk magic, but not always.


Yup. I'm a Kemetic witch. I use witchcraft and I worship the Kemetic deities, often together...but witchcraft is something I *do* whereas my belief in the Netjer are something I *live* ...

To clarify...I could never practise witchcraft again after today, but I would still be able to proceed to live my religion... I could also "do" witchcraft without involvng my Gods....

Does that make sense?

[badkitty]

Religion Pagan, Practice Witchcraft. How I personally regard them.

Webster on-line

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

[hedgewitch00]

I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft, not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.) Witchcraft and wicca are very closely related, but they are not the same.. Is witchcraft a valid religon or just wicca?

did that make scence? :ggrief:
~ miriam

i think it is. a witch is what you call yourself when you pick your own path by taking bits from the other magical religions. it is just as valid as any other. also what exactly do you mean by "Valid religion"? isn't ANY ones beleifs valid?

[Mouse]

It seems to me that it's being classed that witchcraft is "low magick" and Cerimonial magick is "high magick"... CM can be practiced by anyone as it is not joined to a religon.. (correct me if i'm wrong).. but wait.. there are people in wicca who practice high magick as part of their faith, as well as folk magick, but it isn't defined as CM. I'm led to believe that witchcraft is an important part of wicca. I mean the wiccan rede talks of magick and most of their "rules" are guides to the proper use of magick.. so where does wicca leave off and witchcraft begin? And is this high/low magick thing the only thing that sets witchcraft and CM apart?... these questions prolly seem beside the point, but the conection makes scence to my backwards way of thinking so please help me out here :lilangel:

"Look at any two witches. Seriously, pick any two. You will not find any two that hold the same identical beliefs, values, and attitudes" - but look at any two christians, or any two people of any religon, no body has the same identical beliefs because everyone thinks differently, we all understand differently. Even within oraganised religon it would be rare to find two people holding the same beliefs, values and attitudes, even more so if they were to be the exact beliefs that are preached. For example, i have never spoken to any xtian who believes and practices, by any deffinition, everything in the bible.

~miriam

[MorningDove030202]

I always figured that non Wiccan Religious Witches were not Wiccan because they didn't use G. Gardner as a source.

Dove

[DebLipp]

It seems to me that it's being classed that witchcraft is "low magick" and Cerimonial magick is "high magick"... CM can be practiced by anyone as it is not joined to a religon.. (correct me if i'm wrong).. but wait.. there are people in wicca who practice high magick as part of their faith, as well as folk magick, but it isn't defined as CM. I'm led to believe that witchcraft is an important part of wicca. I mean the wiccan rede talks of magick and most of their "rules" are guides to the proper use of magick.. so where does wicca leave off and witchcraft begin? And is this high/low magick thing the only thing that sets witchcraft and CM apart?... these questions prolly seem beside the point, but the conection makes scence to my backwards way of thinking so please help me out here :lilangel:

"Look at any two witches. Seriously, pick any two. You will not find any two that hold the same identical beliefs, values, and attitudes" - but look at any two christians, or any two people of any religon, no body has the same identical beliefs because everyone thinks differently, we all understand differently. Even within oraganised religon it would be rare to find two people holding the same beliefs, values and attitudes, even more so if they were to be the exact beliefs that are preached. For example, i have never spoken to any xtian who believes and practices, by any deffinition, everything in the bible.

~miriam

I don't think it has anything to do with how much the same people think. An interesting argument, but beside the point in this case. Nor does it have to do with the mix of "high," "low," or folk magic in any practitioner's version of witchcraft.

Witchcraft is a practice, as Ben says, like prayer. Or like meditation or yoga. These aren't religions. Even yoga, with a specific religious derivation, is not a religion; practicing yoga doesn't make you a Hindu. If witchcraft is part of your religion then that is because it is part of your religion, just as yoga might be part of the religion of Hinduism (but isn't necessarily).

[Ben Trismegistus]

It seems to me that it's being classed that witchcraft is "low magick" and Cerimonial magick is "high magick"... CM can be practiced by anyone as it is not joined to a religon.. (correct me if i'm wrong).. but wait.. there are people in wicca who practice high magick as part of their faith, as well as folk magick, but it isn't defined as CM. I'm led to believe that witchcraft is an important part of wicca. I mean the wiccan rede talks of magick and most of their "rules" are guides to the proper use of magick.. so where does wicca leave off and witchcraft begin? And is this high/low magick thing the only thing that sets witchcraft and CM apart?... these questions prolly seem beside the point, but the conection makes scence to my backwards way of thinking so please help me out here :lilangel:
Wicca is a religion which incorporates a number of magical practices. Wicca (in its original form) borrowed elements both from traditional witchcraft (utilizing thaumaturgy, or low magic) and Ceremonial Magic (utilizing theurgy, or high magic). The lines are blurred for sure, but it's safe to say that the religion of Wicca uses the craft of Witchcraft, as well as the craft of Ceremonial Magic. As for what separates Witchcraft from CM, the different types of magic are the largest difference, but really, the forms and intents of rituals are vastly different across the board. You might say that the use of magic is one of the only things that Witchcraft and CM have in *common*.

As for witchcraft being a religion, I'd suggest reading Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon. There's virtually no evidence that there was anyone who identified as "witch" worshipping any sort of pagan god or goddess before the 20th century.

[raven grimassi]

Witchcraft is not a religion. It is a craft, simple as that. It has no doctrine or dogma. It can be applied to various religions and faiths all across the globe with varying degrees of success.

It does in fact denote a magical practioner, most often those who focus on low or folk magic, but not always.

It is interesting to note that Witchcraft was referred to as a religion up until relatively recent times. In ancient Greek and Roman writings Witches are depicted calling upon various goddesses, and the Witch known as Medea was portrayed as a priestess of the goddess Hecate. This is a general theme that persists well into the Renaissance period. One example is noted by professor Eva Pocs (Between the Living and the Dead, Central European University Press, 1999) who notes 36 documented cases of Witchcraft, spanning 3 centuries, that include a goddess in the trial transcripts.

The famous 17th century Witch Hunter Francesco Guazzo wrote of Witchcraft as a religion, and he describes an organized sect that holds religious services. This is a theme that continues into the 19th century, and in Italy is picked up by such folklorists as J.B Andrews, Roma Lister, Lady De Vere, and Charles Leland.

Here is an overview of interesting related themes:

60-64 BCE: Roman Poet Catullus writes of Diana as a "three-fold" goddess.

30 BCE: Roman poet Horace in his Epodes of Horace associates witches with the goddess Diana in a mystery cult. Horace writes that witches worship Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina (Persephone).

1 CE: Roman Poet Ovid (in his work titled Metamorphoses) mentions "the sacred rites of the three-fold goddess" in connection to an oath sworn to the witch Medea, and portrays her as a priestess of the goddess Hecate.

62 CE: Lucan writes (in Book 6 of his Bellum Civile) of witches worshipping Hecate as a triformis goddess, with Persephone being the "lowest of the three aspects."

314 CE: Council of Ancyra labels witches as heretics who believe that they belong to a Society of Diana. Council concludes that they are deceived by Satan.

662 CE: Saint Barbato converts Romuald (Duke of Benevento) to Christianity. On Saint Barbato's bidding Romuald has the "witches walnut tree" cut down. This walnut tree was the gathering place of witches who worshipped Diana, well known in the region. In 680 AD Saint Barbato attended the Council of Constantinople where he spoke out against the "witches of Benevento."

906 CE: Regino of Prum in his instructions to the Bishops claims that pagans worship Diana in a cult called the Society of Diana.

1006 CE: 19th book of the Decretum (entitled Corrector) associates the worship of Diana with the common pagan folk.

1280 CE: Diocesan Council of Conserans associates the Witch Cult with the worship of a Pagan Goddess called Benzosia.

1310 CE: Council of Trier associates witches with the goddess Diana (and Herodias).

1313 CE: Giovanni de Matociis writes in his Historiae Imperiales that many lay people believe in a nocturnal society headed by a queen they call Diana.

1390 CE: A woman tried by the Milanese Inquisition for belonging to the Society of Diana confessed to worshipping the goddess of night and stated that Diana bestowed blessings upon her.

1418 CE: Dominican preacher Johannes Herolt writes of women who believe that the goddess Diana gathers women in a nightly procession.

1457 CE: Nicholas of Cusa writes in his sermon of 2 women tried in Bressanone who confessed to worshipping "bona domina" (the good mistress) who they also called Richella.

1508 CE: Italian Inquisitor Bernardo Rategno writes in hisTracatus de Stigibus that a rapid expansion of the Witchcult had begun 150 years earlier. He concludes this from his study of trial transcripts from the Archives of the Inquisition at Como Italy.

1519 CE: Girolamo Folengo (Italian poet) associates a "Mistress" known as Gulfora with witches who gather to worship at Her Court, in his Maccaronea.

1526 CE: Judge Paulus Grillandus writes of witches in the town of Benevento who worship a goddess at the site of an old walnut tree.

1576 CE: Bartolo Spina writes in his Quaestrico de Strigibus, listing information gathered from confessions, that witches gather at night to worship Diana, and have dealings with night spirits.

1597 CE: Andrew Man confessed to judges at Aberdeen that he paid homage to the "Queen of the Fairies" and the "devil" who appeared in the guise of a stag.

1612 CE: French Witch Hunter - Pierre de Lancre writes in his Tableau de l'inconstance des mauvais anges of a "Queen of the Sabbat" who is consort to a Goat-Horned deity at the witches gatherings.

1630 CE: "an enchanter from Hesse" confesses to taking a journey "in spirit" to Venusberg, where he encountered the goddess "Fraw Holt" (Ginzburg states this is the goddess Holda or Holle)

1647 CE: Peter Pipernus writes, in his De Nuce Maga Beneventana and De Effectibus Magicis, of a woman named Violanta who confessed to worshipping Diana at the site of an old walnut tree in the town of Benevento.

1749 CE: Girlamo Tartarotti associates the Witch Cult with theancient cult of Diana, in his book Del Congresso Nottorno Delle Lammie. In his A Study of the Midnight Sabbats of Witches he writes: "The identity of the Dianic Cult with modern witchcraft is demonstrated and proven."

1862 CE: French historian Jules Michelet writes in his book La Sorciere of Witchcraft as a surviving pagan religion that is matrifocal in nature.

1892- 1899 CE: Author Charles Leland associates the Witch Cult with the goddess Diana, as a survival of the ancient ways, in his books: Etruscan Magic & Occult Remedies, Legends of Florence, and Aradia; Gospel of the Witches.

1921 CE: Anthropologist Margaret Murray (in her book The Witchcult in Western Europe) writes of Witchcraft as the survival of an ancient pagan fertility religion based upon the worship of the goddess Diana and her horned-god consort.

1924 CE: Author Ian Ferguson, in his book The Philosophy of Witchcraft, writes of witches as a "pagan priesthood" of an ancient pre-Christian sect that survived through the Middle Ages.

1954 CE: Author Gerald Gardner writes of Witchcraft as the survival of an ancient pagan fertility cult, focusing on a goddess and god consort pair.

For a religion "that never was, and is not now" there appears to be a very long and remarkable religious tone to its literary and historical references (real or imagined).

Best regards - Raven

[Ben Gruagach]

As for witchcraft being a religion, I'd suggest reading Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon. There's virtually no evidence that there was anyone who identified as "witch" worshipping any sort of pagan god or goddess before the 20th century.

I think you're generalizing a bit too much there, Ben T. There is certainly evidence that there were witches prior to Gerald Gardner who also worshipped Pagan deities.

Daniel Ogden's book "Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds" is an excellent source of evidence that there were witches in pre-Christian times. Just as one example.

My understanding of Hutton's argument is that the evidence doesn't support Gardner's claim that what he presented to the world was in fact an intact pre-Christian lineaged and structured religion. That's not the same thing as saying there is no such thing as a Pagan witch prior to Gardner.

[Storm]

n.1.The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.

Going by this "official" definition?

What I have been practicing for over 25 years certainly IS a religion.

I honor my Deity, which in this case is a God-Goddess archtype with many faces both masculine and feminine. I believe (He/She) exists and have faith in them and in that they love me and can influence my life. I have ways of doing ritual to honor them.

Witchcraft is the magickal art of taking things out of nature, of bending them to your will and changing things to suit you, but it is also the act of loving nature and living in communion with it and that which made it. Of healing and loving, and giving energy back to the universe.

Sometimes it's about just BEING, not bending....

For the record I could never cast another spell again in my lifetime and I would still be a practicing Witch.

I don't have to "bend" or "do" anything to participate in the Craft. Everytime I simply go outside and commune with nature I am practicing my faith, and conducting a religious service of a kind, even when it's only a one on one thing...

My religion which happens to be WITCHCRAFT, not Wicca.

Just for the record though I later studied Celtic Wicca, I was actually taught a strega-like form of folk witchcraft as a kid.

I was taught by a coven.

(Yes, I intentionally used the other "C" word because it was an old-style coven and not a Wiccan Circle.)

These older ladies were Witches, and what they were doing, that had almost NOTHING in common with the practices of modern day Wiccans. These were women who were practicing their old-world religion as their mothers and grandmothers had done before them.
They didn't just "make it up" or get their "book" from Gerald Gardner and crew, they were REAL Witches and pretty secretive about it. They were fine herbalists and teachers among other things.

Watchtowers? Chanting a la Reclaiming?

Nope.

They never did any of that...

Sorry, I was far too busy learning what aconite could be used for, what it's folk names were to worry about things like that. We had our rituals but they were simple things. Light a candle on a certain day to honor the Goddess. Burn an herb and ask for something you needed...

They also incidentally went to church and had a public affiliation with the RCC as most women of their day did. But when they got home, the rosary beads were used to cast spells, and count blessings, and the VM statue in the kitchen was also a stand in for Diana and Tana and so forth...They had absolutely no problem as seeing her as the feminine side of the same God they paid lip service to in church, none...

Nor do I....

Wicca is an interesting modern religion but it's practitioner's are not the only ones who can claim the title of "Witch." WICCA may only be a few decades old, but Witchcraft has been alive and well for centuries and no amount of historical rewrites claiming otherwise can make me believe otherwise.

No, it wasn't organized in the sense that a church is.

(On the contrary most Witches were probably going to church AND giving honor to Diana or whoever at home...)

BUT, IMHO the Craft is BOTH Art and Religion...

Me, I happen to practice it as BOTH...

Yeah, a Witch can be a Jew, or a Christian, or just a merry lil Pagan. but in all these faiths is her/his religion. The outer trappings matter far less than what's inside...Call up Isis, call up Diana, call up Mary...

To a "Witch" what is the difference?

Honestly, not much...

My 2 cents...
Very wonderful post . You have had the opportunity to experience something most of us can only dream of. Hopefully after making my own studies and passing on to my progeny can my spirituality and craft become so VALID.
However, the gypsies, or Romany, are much the same way. However, you can still disect what is the craft and what is the spirituality. The craft is a part of many many spiritualities and religions throughout the world and time. Culture and spirituality make the difference.
The things I do in my craft vs what you do in your craft vs what the gypsies(insert culture here) do in their craft still equal spirituality or religion.

[Ben Gruagach]

It is interesting to note that Witchcraft was referred to as a religion up until relatively recent times. In ancient Greek and Roman writings Witches are depicted calling upon various goddesses, and the Witch known as Medea was portrayed as a priestess of the goddess Hecate. This is a general theme that persists well into the Renaissance period. One example is noted by professor Eva Pocs (Between the Living and the Dead, Central European University Press, 1999) who notes 36 documented cases of Witchcraft, spanning 3 centuries, that include a goddess in the trial transcripts.

There is little doubt that witchcraft is largely practiced in a religious context with invocations and prayers offered up to a wide variety of deities (both Pagan and non-Pagan.) There is also little doubt that some in the past have considered witchcraft itself to be a religion. I think the point has been made quite clearly in this thread though that witchcraft itself is a practice that can be incorporated into pretty much any religion (even religions that explicitly forbid the use of magick by their members.)

Deities known to be focussed on magick are not surprisingly frequently the deities of choice for those who practice witchcraft. I'm not sure that it follows though that because there are common deities worshipped by witches that they are therefore the "gods of witchcraft" and witchcraft is therefore a religion. If chefs were to frequently pray to specific cooking-related deities, would those deities be the "gods of cooking" and cooking itself an actual religion? That argument would make any identifiable practice a religion: blacksmithing, visual arts, music, dancing, basketweaving... I think you get my meaning.

As we've mentioned before in this thread, witchcraft is a practice akin to prayer or yoga. Prayer in particular is, to my knowledge, never used except in the context of religious practice. Is prayer a religion?

It's all a very intersting discussion and one that I think is important for everyone in our community to think about. Figuring out what our labels mean, how we use them, and seeing how different people use the words differently helps us to understand not only who we are but where we come from and where we might be going.

[Lunacie]

Hmmm, it seems to me that for some people their practices and beliefs in Witchcraft form a religion, while for others they do not. There doesn't seem to be any 'one true answer'. ;)

[DebLipp]

Wicca is a religion which incorporates a number of magical practices. Wicca (in its original form) borrowed elements both from traditional witchcraft (utilizing thaumaturgy, or low magic) and Ceremonial Magic (utilizing theurgy, or high magic).

Oops, oops, oops. "Low magic" and "high magic" refers primarily to HOW the magic is practiced; in a learned, ritualized, ceremonial way ("high") or in a folksy, "witchy" way ("low"). Theurgy and thaumaturgy, otoh, are words denoting the purpose of the magic. Theurgy is magic done strictly to bring oneself closer to God or godlike beings or for psychological or self-help purposes. Thaumaturgy is magic worked for practical purposes, to achieve measurable ends (heal the sick, get a job, get laid).

[AlAskendir]

I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft, not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.) Witchcraft and wicca are very closely related, but they are not the same.. Is witchcraft a valid religon or just wicca?

did that make scence? :ggrief:
~ miriam

So...what do you mean by 'witch' then? A milder variety of Wicca?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Oops, oops, oops. "Low magic" and "high magic" refers primarily to HOW the magic is practiced; in a learned, ritualized, ceremonial way ("high") or in a folksy, "witchy" way ("low"). Theurgy and thaumaturgy, otoh, are words denoting the purpose of the magic. Theurgy is magic done strictly to bring oneself closer to God or godlike beings or for psychological or self-help purposes. Thaumaturgy is magic worked for practical purposes, to achieve measurable ends (heal the sick, get a job, get laid).
Really? My understanding was that the use of "high" and "low" magic was not a way to say learned vs. folksy, but rather the difference between the use of deific energy ("high" magic, as in communing with beings/spirits/energy that's up in the sky or the air or whatever) and the use of terrestrial energy ("low" magic, as in deriving energy from the rocks, herbs, gems, and stuff beneath your feet, i.e. low). Like "as above, so below", or something like that.

Did I make that up? Cuz it's a damn good explanation.

[AlAskendir]

Thanks to everyone for their view points..

LittleRhiannon, When i say 'witch' not refering to 'magical practitioner' i'm meaning people who practice witchcraft as a religon, wheather or not they use magick, similar to the practice of wicca but without the dogma. And although witchraft isnt a religon (as has been stated here) there are people who practise it as one, these are the people i am refering to.
hope that clears that up :P

Still pretty muddy.
So you're saying that there are groups of Pagans out there, who gather in circle on a regular basis, but don't get into Wiccan dogma (whatever that is), AND who don't use magick? Why not?

To me, groups of people who gather and use magick both religiously and non-religiously are active Pagans, and might be witches depending on the 'flavor' of magick they practise, but might be shamans, ceremonial mages, psychics, manifesters, or combinations of these. If they don't do any magick at all, then they are a social group.

How exactly is it that you can engage in religious activities without using magick?

[AlAskendir]

Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion. Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily incorporate the concept of any particular deity.

Okay, but how do you follow it without using magick?

[AlAskendir]

I disagree.
Religion is a very personal thing and, as you say, no two people view it in the same way. Which brings me to ask again: Who decides what is or isn't a religion?
I can have my own personal set of values, beliefs and attitudes and decide to call it a religion. Others may chose to follow in my path or not. I will still call it my religion. Who has the right to come along and tell me that I can't call my own private beliefs a religion just because it's not part of a dogma and is not universally recognised?
Just some thoughts. :)

In my personal lexicon, 'religion' is a group spirituality that has been twisted to gather money or apply political pressure to something. So I would consider it your spirituality. But I agree that everyone should have their own personal lexicons, and you have every right to call whatever you want to your religion.

[Ben Gruagach]

Really? My understanding was that the use of "high" and "low" magic was not a way to say learned vs. folksy, but rather the difference between the use of deific energy ("high" magic, as in communing with beings/spirits/energy that's up in the sky or the air or whatever) and the use of terrestrial energy ("low" magic, as in deriving energy from the rocks, herbs, gems, and stuff beneath your feet, i.e. low). Like "as above, so below", or something like that.

Did I make that up? Cuz it's a damn good explanation.

I'm with Ben T. on this. Everything I've read over the years that discusses thaumaturgy and theurgy, and all the uses of "high" and "low" to differentiate types of magick, are according to his definition.

This is the first I've ever heard "high" and "low" referring to how the magick was learned (formalized or informally/"folksy.")

[raven grimassi]

There is little doubt that witchcraft is largely practiced in a religious context with invocations and prayers offered up to a wide variety of deities (both Pagan and non-Pagan.) There is also little doubt that some in the past have considered witchcraft itself to be a religion. I think the point has been made quite clearly in this thread though that witchcraft itself is a practice that can be incorporated into pretty much any religion (even religions that explicitly forbid the use of magick by their members.)

Deities known to be focussed on magick are not surprisingly frequently the deities of choice for those who practice witchcraft. I'm not sure that it follows though that because there are common deities worshipped by witches that they are therefore the "gods of witchcraft" and witchcraft is therefore a religion. If chefs were to frequently pray to specific cooking-related deities, would those deities be the "gods of cooking" and cooking itself an actual religion? That argument would make any identifiable practice a religion: blacksmithing, visual arts, music, dancing, basketweaving... I think you get my meaning.

As we've mentioned before in this thread, witchcraft is a practice akin to prayer or yoga. Prayer in particular is, to my knowledge, never used except in the context of religious practice. Is prayer a religion?

It's all a very intersting discussion and one that I think is important for everyone in our community to think about. Figuring out what our labels mean, how we use them, and seeing how different people use the words differently helps us to understand not only who we are but where we come from and where we might be going.

Your points are interesting as always. For myself, I see no reason to separate the ritual/magic of Witchcraft from Witchcraft as a religion. To me that would be like separating the ritual arts of Catholicism and saying they do not share a common system related to the religion. I'm referring to the use of a chalice, wafers, incense, chants, prayers and so forth.

In the ancient writings on Witchcraft, we find such writers as Homer, Horace, Ovid and Lucan depicting Witches using a wand, cauldron and a sickle to perform their rites. We also find them calling upon goddesses in the same tales. They seem to be blended into a single and cohesive system.

Your argument that - "I'm not sure that it follows though that because there are common deities worshipped by witches that they are therefore the "gods of witchcraft" and witchcraft is therefore a religion" - can also be reversed to say that it does not exclude the possibility (if not the probability itself). The fact that the goddesses associated with Witchcraft in Western literature remain consistent over the centuries seems to imply a tradition as opposed to an eclectic snatching of this and that deity as magical needs dictate for the moment. In other words there are many deities with the same powers and natures as those we consistently find in Witchcraft writings. So why do we keep seeing just the same three goddesses in ancient writings?

I agree that one of the problems in modern times is the definitions we all choose to employ. I'm looking at The American Heritage Dictionary, and for religion I find:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 1.a. - A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. From the Latin, religare, to tie fast.

Ironically this seems to apply to any modern systems, which deny religious association. As far as the past references go, we find the word "worship" in the ancient writings about Witches and deity. It would seem that worship is more of a religious element than it is a magical element. Some examples:

30 BCE: Roman poet Horace in his Epodes of Horace associates witches with the goddess Diana in a mystery cult. Horace writes that witches worship Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina (Persephone).

1 CE: Roman Poet Ovid (in his work titled Metamorphoses) mentions "the sacred rites of the three-fold goddess" in connection to an oath sworn to the witch Medea, and portrays her as a priestess of the goddess Hecate.

62 CE: Lucan writes (in Book 6 of his Bellum Civile) of witches worshipping Hecate as a triformis goddess, with Persephone being the "lowest of the three aspects."


The references related to Witches "worshipping" are not exclusive to ancient literature. We also find them during the late Middle Ages and Renaissance period. Some examples:

1280 CE: Diocesan Council of Conserans associates the Witch Cult with the worship of a Pagan Goddess called Benzosia.

1310 CE: Council of Trier associates witches with the goddess Diana (and Herodias).

1390 CE: A woman tried by the Milanese Inquisition for belongingto the Society of Diana confessed to worshipping the goddess of night and stated that Diana bestowed blessings upon her.

1457 CE: Nicholas of Cusa writes in his sermon of 2 women tried in Bressanone who confessed to worshipping "bona domina" (the good mistress) who they also called Richella.

1519 CE: Girolamo Folengo (Italian poet) associates a "Mistress" known as Gulfora with witches who gather to worship at Her Court, in his Maccaronea.

1526 CE: Judge Paulus Grillandus writes of witches in the town of Benevento who worship a goddess at the site of an old walnut tree.

1576 CE: Bartolo Spina writes in his Quaestrico de Strigibus, listing information gathered from confessions, that witches gather at night to worship Diana, and have dealings with night spirits.

1647 CE: Peter Pipernus writes, in his De Nuce Maga Beneventana and De Effectibus Magicis, of a woman named Violanta who confessed to worshipping Diana at the site of an old walnut tree in the town of Benevento.

My conclusions are that we are looking at a cohesive system that is both magical and religious. Some people may choose not to embrace the religious elements of Witchcraft. But the choice of contemporary individuals does not negate the literary and historical theme that predates modern practitioners and their views.

Best regards - Raven

[Temptation]

Okay, but how do you follow it without using magick?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but to me, Witchcraft (whether as a religion or as a craft) implies the use of magic; that's what Witchcraft is all about.

[AlAskendir]

But Paganism isn't a religion either.

What? What is it that you think Paganism is? Or are you saying it isn't One Religion? (which I agree with)

[Ben Gruagach]

Your points are interesting as always. For myself, I see no reason to separate the ritual/magic of Witchcraft from Witchcraft as a religion. To me that would be like separating the ritual arts of Catholicism and saying they do not share a common system related to the religion. I'm referring to the use of a chalice, wafers, incense, chants, prayers and so forth.

Witchcraft is the practice of magick and can be done in pretty much any religion. How can it be said then that Witchcraft itself is the religion?

Catholics are not the only ones who use chalices, wafers, incense, chants, prayers (or even the combination of all of those) in their religion. Wicca certainly uses all those things (although our wafers are more often called cakes... but it's still ritual food.) Is Wicca therefore really just part of the religion of Catholicism? It seems to me that insisting the practice is the religion, rather than acknowledging the practice is conducted within a religious context (and can be part of many different religions) makes it very difficult to distinguish one religion from another.

If witchcraft is the religion, then does that mean Satanic witches, Christian witches, and Wiccan witches, along with non-Wiccan Pagan witches, are really all practicing the same religion? Are the witches of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and the British Isles all practicing the same religion even though they might be in completely different cultures, with different deities?


In the ancient writings on Witchcraft, we find such writers as Homer, Horace, Ovid and Lucan depicting Witches using a wand, cauldron and a sickle to perform their rites. We also find them calling upon goddesses in the same tales. They seem to be blended into a single and cohesive system.

There is no question that witches usually (and I might venture to say, exclusively) practice their magick within the context of a religion. There are even common tools and methods that are found across cultures, just as there are for most religions. But that does not lead to the conclusion that witchcraft itself is the religion. On the contrary, it reinforces the logical statement that witchcraft is a practice that can be employed in pretty much any religion.

Witchcraft has always focussed on the deities relevant to magick in whatever cultures we look at. The fact that these deities differ from culture to culture is pretty clear proof to me personally that there is no such thing as a universal Witchcraft Religion. Perhaps the followers of specific deities in specific cultures (for instance the followers of Aradia in Italy) were all witches -- this comes the closest to a cult of witches. But the devotees of Aradia are not the same as the devotees of Hecate, or the devotees of Brighid or the Dagda or Cerridwen, or the devotees of Kali or Thoth or Isis or Set.

Groups like the Theosophists spent a lot of time looking at religious elements across different cultures and tried to claim the commonalities proved there was such a thing as "one true universal religion" behind it all. I suspect the attempts to find a universal Witchcraft religion is based on the same desire, if not the same intellectual groundwork.

[AlAskendir]

It is interesting to note that Witchcraft was referred to as a religion up until relatively recent times. In ancient Greek and Roman writings Witches are depicted calling upon various goddesses, and the Witch known as Medea was portrayed as a priestess of the goddess Hecate. This is a general theme that persists well into the Renaissance period. One example is noted by professor Eva Pocs (Between the Living and the Dead, Central European University Press, 1999) who notes 36 documented cases of Witchcraft, spanning 3 centuries, that include a goddess in the trial transcripts.

The famous 17th century Witch Hunter Francesco Guazzo wrote of Witchcraft as a religion, and he describes an organized sect that holds religious services. This is a theme that continues into the 19th century, and in Italy is picked up by such folklorists as J.B Andrews, Roma Lister, Lady De Vere, and Charles Leland.

Here is an overview of interesting related themes:

(bunch of really cool historical quotes and sources)

Best regards - Raven

So do you think Alexander the Great was a Democrat or a Republican? How about Pilate? Coeur DeLeon? Or Benjamin Franklin?
What I'm saying is that you are making the point of the people who have been stating that using witchcraft is a part of the religious practises (or spiritual practices) of both Pagans and Wiccans, and as such is nearly indistinguishable from their other religious/ spiritual practises by outsiders.
The key, I think, is to consider any little part of witchcraft that is used in a religious or spiritual way, and see if it can ever be used by anyone thereafter without involving some of the conceptual momentum of that same religious or spiritual way. For example, having a priest or even priestess put a small amount of bread or cracker in the mouths of a number of celebrants invokes an amazing amount of conceptual momentum of Catholic Communion, and I'm not sure how that can ever be avoided. To me, this makes that variety of Communion forever a part of the Catholic Religion. It is still a magickal act, but the magick is overshadowed with Christian and in particular Catholic overtones, and bring to mind essential parts of their beliefs. If witchcraft methods or techniques are the same, if cutting a circle always reminds the cutter of specific sets of Deities or something, then witchcraft would be a spirituality, and if someone was being paid to teach these witches how to live or practise, or if some witch in their group was requiring some political participation against the wills of the others, then witchcraft would be a religion.

[AlAskendir]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but to me, Witchcraft (whether as a religion or as a craft) implies the use of magic; that's what Witchcraft is all about.

first there was:

"I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is
accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft,
not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.)"

then there were quite a number of replies, culminating with your:

"Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs,
values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion.
Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily
incorporate the concept of any particular deity. "

Which is mostly on-point, except for the original part about
'not meaning "witch" as in "magic practisioner'.

So my:

"Okay, but how do you follow it without using magick?"

was an attempt to understand your view concerning all of the points of the original post.

[DebLipp]

But Paganism isn't a religion either.
Sure it is. "Paganism" is most commonly used as an umbrella term for a group of religions, but just as you can be a "mere Christian," you can be a "mere Pagan." You can walk a Pagan path without aligning yourself with any one branch of Paganism.

[Temptation]

first there was:

"I was reading an artical about wicca being a valid religon and where it is
accepted as such etc.. my question is: what about witches who practice witchcraft,
not wicca? (I dont mean the term "witch" as in 'magic practitioner'.)"

then there were quite a number of replies, culminating with your:

"Well, who decides what is or isn't a religion?
One of the definitions of religion is : a set of strongly-held beliefs,
values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
By that definition, Witchcraft can very well be a religion.
Witchcraft to me, is not just a craft, it's also a belief system which doesn't necessarily
incorporate the concept of any particular deity. "

Which is mostly on-point, except for the original part about
'not meaning "witch" as in "magic practisioner'.

So my:

"Okay, but how do you follow it without using magick?"

was an attempt to understand your view concerning all of the points of the original post.


Oh, ok.
Well, I don't know any Witches who don't practice Witchcraft. But I guess if they were to give up the craft, they would just worship and protect the Earth, meditate and try to find another way to commune with the universal energy other than by the use of magic.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Sure it is. "Paganism" is most commonly used as an umbrella term for a group of religions, but just as you can be a "mere Christian," you can be a "mere Pagan." You can walk a Pagan path without aligning yourself with any one branch of Paganism.
The only difference being that you can still have a pretty clear idea of what it means to be a "mere Christian", while being a "mere Pagan" could mean just about anything. :)

[DebLipp]

The only difference being that you can still have a pretty clear idea of what it means to be a "mere Christian", while being a "mere Pagan" could mean just about anything. :)

Oh, I don't know. The only thing you really know about a "mere Christian" is which God they worship. But if someone says they're a Hindu you don't know which God they worship, unless they tell you they're a Shaivite or a Vishnite or something. So that's clearly not a necessary part of the definition.

And a religion isn't judged by outsider's ability to understand it. A "mere Pagan" is certainly a polytheist, pantheist, or animist, and is probably interested in being a part of the Pagan community.

[Mouse]

To me witchcraft isn't just magickal practice, it is a way of life. As Morrighan61 stated "For the record I could never cast another spell again in my lifetime and I would still be a practicing Witch" Therefore showing it is possible to be a witch without useing magick. Just as one could still be christian and not attend church, one could practice witchcraft without attending ritual. the beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by don't change just because they don't attend church or circle.

I'm in agreement with DebLipp on the deffinition of high and low magick and it was by this deffinition that i constructed my question.

I would consider someone who practices magick a magickan, not a witch. The reason for this is that there are a lot of different ways to direct and use energy, not all being within a religous structure and not all useing the specific tools, symbols and ritual forms that witchcraft does. I wouldn't say that satanic witches, wiccan witches, xtian witches etc were all practiceing the same religon, then again, i wouldn't call them witches either. As far as i'm aware satanists practice magick as part of their religon, similar to wicca. (but useing different rituals/methods) Christianity is against witchcraft/magick, aside from that which is practiced in church, and i admit i'm still learning the consepts behind 'christian witchcraft'. I wouldn't call them witches, I'd call them satanists, christians (confused christians in my opinion, and i dont mean to be offenceive, as i said i'm still trying to understand this one) and wiccans. I don't see the need to tack the term witch on because if you know anything about the religon usually their form of worship clearly shows if they use magick or not.

~ miriam

[Temptation]

I would consider someone who practices magick a magickan, not a witch. The reason for this is that there are a lot of different ways to direct and use energy, not all being within a religous structure and not all useing the specific tools, symbols and ritual forms that witchcraft does. I wouldn't say that satanic witches, wiccan witches, xtian witches etc were all practiceing the same religon, then again, i wouldn't call them witches either. As far as i'm aware satanists practice magick as part of their religon, similar to wicca. (but useing different rituals/methods) Christianity is against witchcraft/magick, aside from that which is practiced in church, and i admit i'm still learning the consepts behind 'christian witchcraft'. I wouldn't call them witches, I'd call them satanists, christians (confused christians in my opinion, and i dont mean to be offenceive, as i said i'm still trying to understand this one) and wiccans. I don't see the need to tack the term witch on because if you know anything about the religon usually their form of worship clearly shows if they use magick or not.
~ miriam

I'm having trouble understanding what, in your opinion, makes a Witch. What is your definition of a Witch?
I mean Satanist Witches, Xtian Witches, Wiccan Witches etc... They're all Witches!
Just like a surgeon, an OB-GYN, a peditrician and a dermatologist are all medical doctors, even though they practice in different medical fields. (lame example, I know, but it's the best I could come up with. I didn't want to use lawyers ;))

So what do you mean by Witch, exactly?

[Mouse]

by witch i mean someone who practices witchcraft. In the same way that someone who practices christianity is a christian or someone who practices wicca is a wiccan.

By the definition that anyone who practices magick is a witch, then witchcraft is a practice that anyone can take up. Same as you can have xtian doctors, and pagan doctors...

But there is different styles of magick, witchcraft being only one style of many..

Is that a lil clearer?

[Temptation]

by witch i mean someone who practices witchcraft. In the same way that someone who practices christianity is a christian or someone who practices wicca is a wiccan.

By the definition that anyone who practices magick is a witch, then witchcraft is a practice that anyone can take up. Same as you can have xtian doctors, and pagan doctors...

But there is different styles of magick, witchcraft being only one style of many..

Is that a lil clearer?

Oh, I think I get it now. You mean that Witchcraft and magic are two similar but different things. Ok, that makes sense, now.

Thanx:)

[Hærfest Leah]

I second...er third that. I feel that witchcraft is a practice... much like meditation or prayer and could be applied to other religions...

This is where I stand too although I do consider myself Wiccan. I don't think I fit anywhere else and I have no problem with wiccan rules (Rede, Rune .)

I do not practice much of the craft yet, starting very slowly with it but I see it as the same as practicing my meditation and my yoga.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Still pretty muddy.
So you're saying that there are groups of Pagans out there, who gather in circle on a regular basis, but don't get into Wiccan dogma (whatever that is), AND who don't use magick? Why not?

To me, groups of people who gather and use magick both religiously and non-religiously are active Pagans, and might be witches depending on the 'flavor' of magick they practise, but might be shamans, ceremonial mages, psychics, manifesters, or combinations of these. If they don't do any magick at all, then they are a social group.

How exactly is it that you can engage in religious activities without using magick?

Simple. I don't use magic at all and I'm a very religious person. Though I don't like to use the term pagan, my religon is usually classified as such. Religion is related to the worshipping of deities, not the practice of magic. I pray, offer sacrifices on a regular (if not daily) basis, and perform rituals to honor my deities and ancestors in a family environment. None of this involves magic. I don't cast spells or manipulate energy in any fashion. Therefore I practice a relgion without magic. It is not a social group as you want to dismiss it. Especially since my practice involves only myself and my family.

*(I know there are some that consider prayer to be a form of magic, but that is something I can't comprehend. Prayer is conversing with a deity, frequently it is used to ask "favors" such as healing or protection from your deity, but there is no active manipulation of energy by the person praying. They are leaving it in the hands of their god(s). )

[Ben Gruagach]

by witch i mean someone who practices witchcraft. In the same way that someone who practices christianity is a christian or someone who practices wicca is a wiccan.

By the definition that anyone who practices magick is a witch, then witchcraft is a practice that anyone can take up. Same as you can have xtian doctors, and pagan doctors...

But there is different styles of magick, witchcraft being only one style of many..

Is that a lil clearer?

I think there is still a lot of confusion showing through in the definitions you've given.

Witchcraft is the practice of magick. Ceremonial magick is also the practice of magick. They are both about magick, but they are different too. All magick is not witchcraft, just like all magick is not ceremonial magick. (It's kind of like the idea that Wiccans are just one type of witch; not all witches are Wiccans. Or the statement that Wiccans are Pagans, and not all Pagans are Wiccans.)

Especially for Wiccans, witchcraft can be a very huge part of the spiritual practice. Doing magick can be central to your religious expression. But the witchcraft is still just a practice and not the religion itself. That's why it's perfectly alright to say there are Satanic witches, Wiccan witches, Christian witches, and non-Wiccan Pagan witches. Hey, there could even be atheist witches or agnostic witches! No single religion "owns" the exclusive right to the word witch or the practice of witchcraft. It seems to me that a lot of the animosity that has come up in the Pagan community has been over different religious groups thinking that somehow they were the only ones who had the right to call themselves witches and others didn't.

Because witchcraft is a practice (the practice of doing magick) if you don't do magick then I don't think you can be considered a practicing witch. Maybe a nonpracticing witch. But if a person does not want to practice magick in any form then I would wonder why they would want to call themselves a witch at all in the first place? You can be a Christian, a Satanist, a Pagan, (and hey, maybe even a Wiccan) without being a witch. (Personally, though, I don't see the point of being a non-witch Wiccan since Wicca as a religion is all about witchcraft being a major tool for spiritual growth.)

[silverstard]

Because witchcraft is a practice (the practice of doing magick) if you don't do magick then I don't think you can be considered a practicing witch. Maybe a nonpracticing witch. But if a person does not want to practice magick in any form then I would wonder why they would want to call themselves a witch at all in the first place?

I agree with what you're saying, however, with this point, let's say someone was in the closet with regards to their family, and circumstances require that they have to move back in for a time period. That person may feel more comfortable not practicing their craft until they are back on their own. However, imo, it doesn't make them any less a witch :)

It's interesting reading this :D

[Ben Gruagach]

I agree with what you're saying, however, with this point, let's say someone was in the closet with regards to their family, and circumstances require that they have to move back in for a time period. That person may feel more comfortable not practicing their craft until they are back on their own. However, imo, it doesn't make them any less a witch :)

It's interesting reading this :D

I agree that you can still be a witch if you aren't actively practicing magick. But that means you're not a practicing witch, right? Practicing means you're actually doing it.

Magick is more than just casting formal circles, using lots of incense, candles, ritual cups and knives. Books like Scott Cunningham's "Earth Power" (or any book about doing magick and spells) provide many ways to do witchcraft that can be done in all sorts of circumstances, including those where you are living with people who you don't want to know you're into witchcraft.

And since the religion can be practiced separate from the witchcraft part, even Wiccans can be "practicing Wiccans" even if they aren't doing formal circles with all the props because of restricted circumstances. Christian witches have it easier though since it likely wouldn't raise many eyebrows if you were to openly practice a Christian religion (except in some parts of the world, of course.) As a Wiccan, though, I can say with certainty that you don't have to wear specific clothes, jewelry, etc. or have any visible things on you to be a practicing Wiccan. Many Wiccans blend in really well in mainstream society and are just as Wiccan as the most extroverted in-your-face Wiccan with pounds of jewelry and fancy clothes.

[DebLipp]

I agree that you can still be a witch if you aren't actively practicing magick. But that means you're not a practicing witch, right? Practicing means you're actually doing it.


Well, this can get amusing. I mean, how much time is allowed to pass between spells for you to still be "practicing?" Like, if you take weekends off, is that okay?

Sorry, I'm being facetious, but I don't think we should examine too closely this "actively" issue, otherwise it's like there's a frequency rule. I am a witch because I practice witchcraft when the need arises.

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, this can get amusing. I mean, how much time is allowed to pass between spells for you to still be "practicing?" Like, if you take weekends off, is that okay?

Sorry, I'm being facetious, but I don't think we should examine too closely this "actively" issue, otherwise it's like there's a frequency rule. I am a witch because I practice witchcraft when the need arises.

Oh, I agree.

But I do think that people who don't like magick and don't want to do magick might want to think about whether it's appropriate to call themselves a witch. That seemed to me to be part of what was coming through in the discussion.

[raven grimassi]

Witchcraft is the practice of magick and can be done in pretty much any religion. How can it be said then that Witchcraft itself is the religion?

Catholics are not the only ones who use chalices, wafers, incense, chants, prayers (or even the combination of all of those) in their religion. Wicca certainly uses all those things (although our wafers are more often called cakes... but it's still ritual food.) Is Wicca therefore really just part of the religion of Catholicism? It seems to me that insisting the practice is the religion, rather than acknowledging the practice is conducted within a religious context (and can be part of many different religions) makes it very difficult to distinguish one religion from another.

If witchcraft is the religion, then does that mean Satanic witches, Christian witches, and Wiccan witches, along with non-Wiccan Pagan witches, are really all practicing the same religion? Are the witches of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and the British Isles all practicing the same religion even though they might be in completely different cultures, with different deities?



There is no question that witches usually (and I might venture to say, exclusively) practice their magick within the context of a religion. There are even common tools and methods that are found across cultures, just as there are for most religions. But that does not lead to the conclusion that witchcraft itself is the religion. On the contrary, it reinforces the logical statement that witchcraft is a practice that can be employed in pretty much any religion.

Witchcraft has always focussed on the deities relevant to magick in whatever cultures we look at. The fact that these deities differ from culture to culture is pretty clear proof to me personally that there is no such thing as a universal Witchcraft Religion. Perhaps the followers of specific deities in specific cultures (for instance the followers of Aradia in Italy) were all witches -- this comes the closest to a cult of witches. But the devotees of Aradia are not the same as the devotees of Hecate, or the devotees of Brighid or the Dagda or Cerridwen, or the devotees of Kali or Thoth or Isis or Set.

Groups like the Theosophists spent a lot of time looking at religious elements across different cultures and tried to claim the commonalities proved there was such a thing as "one true universal religion" behind it all. I suspect the attempts to find a universal Witchcraft religion is based on the same desire, if not the same intellectual groundwork.

I think you've misunderstood some of my points. For example, you said - "Witchcraft is the practice of magick and can be done in pretty much any religion. How can it be said then that Witchcraft itself is the religion?"

I'm saying that Witchcraft is a religion that incorporates magic. I'm saying that the earliest literary works depict it as a religion, hence the term "worship" when referring to Witches and a particular goddess. We know from ancient sources that the Greeks considered Witches to be practitioners of "illicit religion" (which is religion nonetheless). It's a modern notion that Witchcraft is magic first and foremost.

You also seem to have missed my point about Catholicism. I was simply pointing out that there is a ritual component to Catholicism as well as a religious component, and that the two go together as inseparable in that system. My point was that it is the same in Witchcraft. In other words the magic does not exclude the religious foundation.

I'm not sure of your intended point where you say - "If witchcraft is the religion, then does that mean Satanic witches, Christian witches, and Wiccan witches, along with non-Wiccan Pagan witches, are really all practicing the same religion? Are the witches of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and the British Isles all practicing the same religion even though they might be in completely different cultures, with different deities?"

Witchcraft differs according to the region in which it evolved, and so each regional tradition will naturally have cultural differences. But what we find in Witchcraft trials and other sources throughout Europe is a widespread reference to "worship" AND to "magic" (and even the Church believed that Witches "worshipped" Satan, and so again we see a continuing religious element).

Regarding your comment - "There are even common tools and methods that are found across cultures, just as there are for most religions. But that does not lead to the conclusion that witchcraft itself is the religion." - No, what leads to the conclusion that Witchcraft is a religion is over 2500 years of literature referring to Witches worshipping this or that deity, entity, or whatever.

Best regards - Raven

[DebLipp]

I'm saying that Witchcraft is a religion that incorporates magic.

I think this is a problematic statement, because as you say, witchcraft evolved differently in different places. Witchcraft is also modern, having "evolved" in the 20th and 21st century in a variety of ways. Witchcraft is also a fictional conception, as in the Wicked Witch of the West or the tv show Charmed.

The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion. There are many Witchcrafts, with many meanings. That's why it is best to use the word with a preceding modifier; "Stregha Witchcraft," "Wiccan Witchcraft," "Satanic Witchcraft," "Disney Witchcraft."

[Temptation]

The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion. There are many Witchcrafts, with many meanings. That's why it is best to use the word with a preceding modifier; "Stregha Witchcraft," "Wiccan Witchcraft," "Satanic Witchcraft," "Disney Witchcraft."

I just had this thought all of a sudden, reading this thread :

Witchcraft is becoming an umbrella term, encompassing many different belief systems and practices. Kind of like Paganism.

It means so many different things depending on who you talk to and what Dictionary or Encyclopedia you open. It's quite interesting, really...

:)

[Ben Gruagach]

I think this is a problematic statement, because as you say, witchcraft evolved differently in different places. Witchcraft is also modern, having "evolved" in the 20th and 21st century in a variety of ways. Witchcraft is also a fictional conception, as in the Wicked Witch of the West or the tv show Charmed.

The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion. There are many Witchcrafts, with many meanings. That's why it is best to use the word with a preceding modifier; "Stregha Witchcraft," "Wiccan Witchcraft," "Satanic Witchcraft," "Disney Witchcraft."

Thanks, Deb. You put that really well.

I'll try and address a few of the other points in Raven's thought-provoking post.


I'm saying that the earliest literary works depict it as a religion, hence the term "worship" when referring to Witches and a particular goddess.

There is no doubt that witchcraft is practiced the vast majority of the time within a religious context. That means that deities are invoked or prayed to and usually their aid is requested as part of the magickal work. This does not prove that the practice itself is the religion. It is merely confirmation that the practice is done within a religious context.

The key to this for me is that other practices such as prayer are also done pretty much exclusively in a religious context yet we don't claim prayer itself is the religion.

Another major reason why I have a hard time accepting the claim that witchcraft is a religion and not just a practice done in a religious context is that it exists in pretty much any religion we care to examine. It happens in a Christian framework, a Jewish one, in ancient Greece, in ancient Rome, in ancient and modern day central and south America. It existed in ancient and modern Africa. It existed in the various diverse cultures of Europe both ancient and modern. The deities, ethical structures, and even methods of doing witchcraft varied quite a bit across the religious contexts. How then can we say that witchcraft itself is a single identifiable religion?


We know from ancient sources that the Greeks considered Witches to be practitioners of "illicit religion" (which is religion nonetheless). It's a modern notion that Witchcraft is magic first and foremost.

The idea of witchcraft being a form of "illicit religion" is an interesting point but it is misleading in the context of this particular thread. Ronald Hutton talks about this idea at some length in his essay "The New Old Paganism" in his book "Witches, Druids and King Arthur." Illicit religion has more to do with acting in a religious capacity outside the permitted institutionalized authority structure than with identifying witchcraft itself as a distinct religion. Witches were miracle-workers who competed with the officially sanctioned miracle-workers (authorized priests in the state-approved religion.) It's more about a turf war, and trying to demonize those who act in specific roles outside the approved structure. In the discussions about "illicit religion" particularly in the case of the Inquisition, it's important to remember that the label witch was just an easy way to mark someone as outside the mainstream and justify punishing them regardless what the victim's actual religious stance was. Catholics called Protestants heretics and undoubtedly executed some as witches, while in Protestant countries I'm sure there were Catholics who were similarly accused, convicted, and killed. Some of the victims might not have even been outside the mainstream religion for their area but were merely targets for other reasons, such as being an elderly woman, being wealthy (and therefore the object of jealousy for others), being young and attractive, having a visible mole, having a pet cat.

I also challenge the statement that witches have always been first and foremost defined as practitioners of a specific religion. On the contrary, all the etymology of the words witch, sorceror, etc. seem to point to "working magick" rather than "being a member of a specific religion." The etymologies such as those at http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/nonscript-version/witch-defined.htm point out that witchcraft is usually explained in terms of a religious context. That is different from saying witchcraft itself is a religion, but supports the statement that witchcraft is a practice that is usually done within one's religious context.


You also seem to have missed my point about Catholicism. I was simply pointing out that there is a ritual component to Catholicism as well as a religious component, and that the two go together as inseparable in that system. My point was that it is the same in Witchcraft. In other words the magic does not exclude the religious foundation.

I understand that in the example of Catholicism specific practices are required to be a participant in that religion. Another example is Gardnerian Wicca -- to be a member of that specific Wiccan sect, there are certain practices which are followed and specific rituals you must enact. However, it is very possible to separate the practices themselves from the specific religion. The practices of Gardnerian Wicca, just like the practices of the Roman Catholic faith, are indeed practiced in other religions. The practices themselves are not the religion. They can be and are central to many faiths, but the practices themselves are not a religion.

Wicca in my understanding is a religion that is based largely on the practice of witchcraft within a specific religious context (reverence for both the male and female Divine, reverence for nature, explicit use of magick to better ourselves and our world.) Wiccans though are not the only witches out there. Our form of practicing witchcraft as central to our religion is not the only one that exists. Our religion of Wicca does not own witchcraft so we can't really honestly say that our religion is witchcraft.


...what leads to the conclusion that Witchcraft is a religion is over 2500 years of literature referring to Witches worshipping this or that deity, entity, or whatever.

There is a huge amount of literature stretching back through human history that documents the use of prayer within a religious context. If the logic is to hold, then we must say that prayer is a religion as well.

The fact that we can prove witchcraft is used most of the time within a religious context does not prove that witchcraft itself is the religion. If the proof showed that in all instances the deities were exactly the same, the actual methods were always the same, the ethics were always the same, and the self-professed religion was always called the same thing then I might think otherwise. I have a hard time, though, in agreeing that a Mexican woman praying to indigenous gods of magick, a Greek man carving a love spell on a lead tablet while invoking Hecate at a crossroads, and a Phillippine sorceror putting a curse on someone are all practicing the same religion, even with regional variations, as a Wiccan in the UK or in North America.

Whew! That was a long post.

I think this whole discussion shows that our community has some interesting topics which deserve a lot more research and serious scholarly attention. It's certainly not a cut-and-dried thing.

[Scarlet Witch]

I also challenge the statement that witches have always been first and foremost defined as practitioners of a specific religion. On the contrary, all the etymology of the words witch, sorceror, etc. seem to point to "working magick" rather than "being a member of a specific religion."

I think it's important to take into consideration that the etymology of the English word Witch is different from say that of the Greeks. I mention Greeks only because they produce the earliest writings on Witchcraft. Many people tend to think of European Witchcraft as something uniquely of the British Isles, which is not the case. In fact we have no Celtic writings from the pre-Christian era from which we can really say anything about Witchcraft in this region.

This brings to mind two possibilities. The first being that, if Witchcraft ever existed there, it was something more akin to shamanism. If so, perhaps a religious element was never a formal apsect of Witchcraft itself in the British Isles. The second possibility is that the religious elements were there and over time decayed, leaving behind only its magical remnants.

Since the English words come at a relatively late period, when compared to Greek and Roman sources, they may not be the best etymologies to use in sorting out foundational origins.

Blessed be - Scarlet Witch

[Ben Gruagach]

Since the English words come at a relatively late period, when compared to Greek and Roman sources, they may not be the best etymologies to use in sorting things out foundational origins.

I understand your point. However, the English word "witch" (and its predecessors, Wicce and Wicca) have a pretty long etymological family tree that scholars have traced back to Indo-European root sources. Check it out for instance at http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/nonscript-version/witch-defined.htm or do a Google search on "witch etymology" for more.

[Scarlet Witch]

I understand your point. However, the English word "witch" (and its predecessors, Wicce and Wicca) have a pretty long etymological family tree that scholars have traced back to Indo-European root sources. Check it out for instance at http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/nonscript-version/witch-defined.htm or do a Google search on "witch etymology" for more.

Yes, it's true that English has long roots stretching back to Indo-European roots. This presents some problems because we're looking at the passing on of concepts from one culture to another throughout much of Europe. Each one absorbs and undoubtedly modifiies the application of the word along the way (if not the original meaning). With the Greeks we have something less so.

Blessed be,
Scarlet Witch

[raven grimassi]

I think this is a problematic statement, because as you say, witchcraft evolved differently in different places. Witchcraft is also modern, having "evolved" in the 20th and 21st century in a variety of ways. Witchcraft is also a fictional conception, as in the Wicked Witch of the West or the tv show Charmed.

The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion. There are many Witchcrafts, with many meanings. That's why it is best to use the word with a preceding modifier; "Stregha Witchcraft," "Wiccan Witchcraft," "Satanic Witchcraft," "Disney Witchcraft."

I would respectfully disagree that "The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion." - But I accept that such is your view. My view is that Witchcraft is a religion and a magical system with many denominations such as Celtic Witchcraft, Italian Witchcraft, Germanic Witchcraft and so forth. In these we find the cultural renderings that make them different and yet related.

Best regards - Raven

[Aidron]

I would respectfully disagree that "The fact is, Witchcraft isn't "a" religion." - But I accept that such is your view. My view is that Witchcraft is a religion and a magical system with many denominations such as Celtic Witchcraft, Italian Witchcraft, Germanic Witchcraft and so forth. In these we find the cultural renderings that make them different and yet related.

Best regards - Raven


Out of curiosity, what would your thoughts be on someone who is an athiest and yet practices withcraft, and by that I mean the magical system that I view it as? If no religion is entailed what label would you bestow on them from your own perception?

[WingedTigerChild]

Perhaps we need to define religion?

[Aidron]

Perhaps we need to define religion?


Been there, done that, own not only the t-shirt but the collectible dish set as well. ;)

[AlAskendir]

Simple. I don't use magic at all and I'm a very religious person. Though I don't like to use the term pagan, my religon is usually classified as such. Religion is related to the worshipping of deities, not the practice of magic. I pray, offer sacrifices on a regular (if not daily) basis, and perform rituals to honor my deities and ancestors in a family environment. None of this involves magic. I don't cast spells or manipulate energy in any fashion. Therefore I practice a relgion without magic. It is not a social group as you want to dismiss it. Especially since my practice involves only myself and my family.

Okay...I didn't mean to dismiss it..some of the most powerful groups in this country are social groups. So yours is a familal group. That's cool.

*(I know there are some that consider prayer to be a form of magic, but that is something I can't comprehend. Prayer is conversing with a deity, frequently it is used to ask "favors" such as healing or protection from your deity, but there is no active manipulation of energy by the person praying. They are leaving it in the hands of their god(s). )

I can see how you would feel that, but in my experience those who do magick on a spiritual path regularly, often discover that whatever magick they do individually or as a group vastly pales in comparison to the magick that the Goddesses and Gods do,, so it becomes far more effective to yield to the flow of the Deities, to come to understand that they are in charge of the Omniverse and be glad for it (Goddess knows I'm glad! I can barely handle my own life!!), to do works by combining magick and prayer, asking for things or processes of magick but letting the Deities do the 'work' (it turns out usually to be something they enjoy and/or were planning anyway...). This is a little different than standard magick, a lot more like manifesting, but it isn't just leaving everything up to the fates.

[raven grimassi]

Out of curiosity, what would your thoughts be on someone who is an athiest and yet practices withcraft, and by that I mean the magical system that I view it as? If no religion is entailed what label would you bestow on them from your own perception?

My view would be that this is someone who desires to practice the ritual and magical arts of Witchcraft but is not interested in its religious elements. I do not personally feel that to be a Witch a person has to be religious or has to accept the existence of divinity.

I'm simply pointing out that the earliest literature related to Witchcraft depicts a relationship with various deities within a magical system. As already noted the Greeks viewed Witches as practitioners of illicit religion, which means they viewed them as performing religious acts but did not deem their religion as meeting the official criteria to constitute a religion as sanctioned and approved by the State.

Best regards - Raven

[Aidron]

My view would be that this is someone who desires to practice the ritual and magical arts of Witchcraft but is not interested in its religious elements. I do not personally feel that to be a Witch a person has to be religious or has to accept the existence of divinity.

Then would that not be an individual who is simply there for the party and not the reason behind the party, if in fact witchcraft was a religion as you view it? To clarify, it would be like me attending mass just to get free wine and a snack. If witchcraft was a religion as you say, I cannot help but see that as more than a bit distasteful. Granted, I don't see it as a religion, so athiest witches have as just as much respect of mine as anyone else.


I'm simply pointing out that the earliest literature related to Witchcraft depicts a relationship with various deities within a magical system. As already noted the Greeks viewed Witches as practitioners of illicit religion, which means they viewed them as performing religious acts but did not deem their religion as meeting the official criteria to constitute a religion as sanctioned and approved by the State.

Best regards - Raven

True, many reports do portray witches involved in some manner of religious context, but would that not be more of a cultural issue than a witchcraft one? A witch in ancient Greece may have worshipped Hecate, Artemis, or Hades. While one in (entymology aside) in the British aisles could have worshipped Cerridwen or the Morgan? I see the religious inclusion being more a product of geography than of witchcraft personally.

[raven grimassi]

Perhaps we need to define religion?

We will probably never find a "one size fits all" in this topic. But, it is interesting to note that the English word religion is rooted in the Latin concept of "religio" which means "respect for what is sacred" (and I cannot think of a better definition).

Best regards - Raven

[raven grimassi]

Then would that not be an individual who is simply there for the party and not the reason behind the party, if in fact witchcraft was a religion as you view it? To clarify, it would be like me attending mass just to get free wine and a snack. If witchcraft was a religion as you say, I cannot help but see that as more than a bit distasteful. Granted, I don't see it as a religion, so athiest witches have as just as much respect of mine as anyone else.

Your analogy feels a little tight to fit comfortably, but I would offer that it is more like an open house party, and there is no judgment on why you came. While I believe that Witchcraft is a religion, I am not personally offended or put off by others practicing it strictly as a magical craft. I do not feel that I have exclusive rights (or rites) and that if someone disagrees with my view they cannot play in the sandbox.


True, many reports do portray witches involved in some manner of religious context, but would that not be more of a cultural issue than a witchcraft one? A witch in ancient Greece may have worshipped Hecate, Artemis, or Hades. While one in (entymology aside) in the British aisles could have worshipped Cerridwen or the Morgan? I see the religious inclusion being more a product of geography than of witchcraft personally.

I think that the point that Witches were depicted as worshipping, in and of itself indicates a religious nature. So, where they did it seems irrelevant to the nature itself. If a eat a hamburger in California, and I eat a hamburger in London, I am still a carnivore (and the geography does not modify what I am and what I am doing).

Best regards - Raven

[Mau]

What? What is it that you think Paganism is? Or are you saying it isn't One Religion? (which I agree with)

That Paganism is an umbrella term encompassing various religions and spiritualities :)

[aerialla]

After reading all of the post I am now ready with my reply.

Religion is where you worship a supreme omniscient power.

Paganism is a religion that got its first practitioners during ancient times (Greek/Roman mythology for an example)

Witchcraft and Wicca are the practices of the Pagan religion.

You can practice Witchcraft without being Pagan just like anyone can read the Bible or the Koran without being Christian.

Wicca is what modern society likes to call Paganism.

When you do things for the benefit of your religion (magick, spells, enchantments, worshipping a certain Diety) it is practicing. The same for attending a Sunday morning service, taking communion, Worshipping on Easter Sunday, those are practices of the Christian religion.

Religion is a way of life, the practicing is what makes it all gel together. You can be religious without practicing, but it makes it harder to lead a religious way of life without the day to day little things like prayer or lighting a candle.

I hope this helped.:raining:

[aerialla]

One more thing. Paganism is considered any religion that does not follow in the Jewish or Christian belief system. Also called Heathenism.

[DebLipp]

After reading all of the post I am now ready with my reply.
Remarkably, you are wrong in almost every particular.


Religion is where you worship a supreme omniscient power.
100% wrong. Some religions worship "a" power and some worship more than one. Some religions (Buddhism) do not worship powers. Some religions consider the worshiped power(s) supreme and omniscient and some do not.


Paganism is a religion that got its first practitioners during ancient times (Greek/Roman mythology for an example)
Wrong. Paganism is not "a" religion. It is a term that covers a great number of religions. Greek Paganism is not the same religion as Norse Paganism is not the same religion as Wicca is not the same religion as Feraferia, etc.


Witchcraft and Wicca are the practices of the Pagan religion.
Wrong. Since there is no one Pagan religion, your statement about "the" Pagan "religion" is wrong. To be accurate, you would have to say "a" Pagan religion. Wicca is a Pagan religion, one of many Pagan religions. The conversation here is specifically about the idea that Witchcraft and Wicca are not necessarily the same thing, and specifically about whether or not Witchcraft is always a religion, in particular, when it is separate from Wicca, i.e. non-Wiccan witchcraft.


You can practice Witchcraft without being Pagan just like anyone can read the Bible or the Koran without being Christian.
Right. And since you are clear about this, it makes your statement, quoted above, confusing. Why say in the previous paragraph that witchcraft is a religion and say here that it isn't?


Wicca is what modern society likes to call Paganism.
Wrong. Wicca is a specific Pagan religion. "Modern society" is a vague and fairly useless term, but if they "like" to call all Paganism Wicca, they're wrong.


When you do things for the benefit of your religion (magick, spells, enchantments, worshipping a certain Diety) it is practicing. The same for attending a Sunday morning service, taking communion, Worshipping on Easter Sunday, those are practices of the Christian religion.

Religion is a way of life, the practicing is what makes it all gel together. You can be religious without practicing, but it makes it harder to lead a religious way of life without the day to day little things like prayer or lighting a candle.
This seems true, but I don't get your point.


One more thing. Paganism is considered any religion that does not follow in the Jewish or Christian belief system. Also called Heathenism.
One definition of Pagan and Heathen is non Christian, Jewish, or Islamic. However, that's not the definition we're discussing.


I hope this helped.:raining:
Not so much.

[PeleRising]

I have read this entire thread with much interest. I was truly having a hard time trying to decide how to respond until I read this one little bit of DebLipps last post...



Some religions (Buddhism) do not worship powers.


Some consider Buddhism a religion... and just as many dont. Many consider Buddhism as a way of life. Just like the Buddhists, we dont have to agree on this. My path is as a witch... with deep reverance of the earth and her creatures. That is what and who I am at my core.