question about Celtic Reconstructionism.

[fafonen]

With Celtic Recon you hear so much about specific areas such as Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall even and its easy to find stuff about those types of Celtic Reconstructionism, but my question is...most of my ancestors (as far as I know) are from Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire as well as Devonshire & Somerset and I'd really like to follow a path that has bases in the areas where my ancestors lived...but I don't really know where to start. Is there a type of just plain British Reconstructionism? Or are there specific sub-groups of Celtic Reconstructionism that are focused around one of those areas.

I ask because most Celtic Reconstructionists I've talked to have focused in on a certain area in their studies. I've talked to Irish Recons, Cymru Recons and Scottish Recons but I'm at a loss when it comes to how I should try and go about studying the customs of those areas mentioned above. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.
~fafonen

[Sleet]

...most of my ancestors (as far as I know) are from Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire as well as Devonshire & Somerset and I'd really like to follow a path that has bases in the areas where my ancestors lived...

Look to the folks who lived there. If you want to go Celtic, there were (I think) lots of Cymri people - the forerunners of the Welsh - there in pre-Roman times, so Welsh recon would not be a bad place to start.

You could also explore Anglo-Saxon heathenry (I think Heathenry is the right term for Anglo-Saxon beliefs)

[Zophael]

You might try researching some of the Celtic tribes that lived in those areas.
These are the tribes I know of:
The Parisi lived around York, the Coritani in Lincoln, the Dumnonii in Devon, the Durotriges in Somerset and the Brigantes in northern York across to Cumberland and Westmoreland.

[ap Dafydd]

The inhabitants of those areas would have been Brythonic peoples.

For both ends, look at the archaeological record. See if there were any particular deities, temples, cults, or holy places associated with those areas.

For the southern end, look to Cornwall.

For the northern end, look up the heritage of the Hen Ogledd, the Old North. Culturally it was very close to Wales (there wasn't a geographical seperation before the Battle of Chester) and a lot of poetry survives.

There's also a book and I'm damned if I can remember the title of it, which talks about Celtic survivals in Derbyshire. I'll look it up if I get a chance.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Don't forget also, that Britain was heavily Romanized and most of the info we have regarding the people who lived there and their culture comes to us from first the Romans and second the Anglo-Saxons. It wouldn't hurt to take a look at those sources. Further many of the deities were in themselves Romanized and tended to be conflated with the Roman gods (good example of this is Brigantia being conflated with the Minerva) so you will have to keep that in mind and look into the worship of Roman gods in Britain.

[mucgwyrt]

But of course, Anglo-Saxon Recon is best :heybaby:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

But of course, Anglo-Saxon Recon is best :heybaby:

~gags muggy~ Don't listen to her. She doesn't know what she's talking about. :achug:

[Seren_]

You can get an idea of the Brythonic tribes that were documented by the Romans from occupation and trade from this website, which is very good:

http://www.roman-britain.org/_tribes.htm

It also gives a list of the gods that are documented by altars in each area, so you can start building up an idea of some deities you might want to look at as well. Roman sources will be very handy for you.

Historically, the Brythonic people of Britain spanned what we now call England, Wales and the southern parts of Scotland (roughly equating with the Borders area). The evidence suggests they all spoke the same language at one time - Brythonic - which is the language Welsh, Cornish and Cumbric all evolved from.

As the Anglo-Saxons moved in, mostly in the eastern parts of Britain and then further inland, Britain began to change linguistically (and culturally) with the Celtic languages being pushed further west - finally into Wales and pockets of Cornish.

Therefore you might find Welsh myth and poetry closest to what you might be looking for if you want to be Celtic in focus. The obvious choice here would be the Welsh myths in the Mabinogion, plus the poems of Aneirin and Taliesin (http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/welsh.html). Y Gododdin is probably the most important poem you'll want to look at, since it's thought to have been set in the Yorkshire area. It doesn't give you much - or any - idea about pagan religious beliefs, but it does give you an idea of the kind of society they lived in. Scholars usually use it as an example of the "Celtic" heroic ideal.

More general books you might find useful are Barry Cunliffe The Celts (or the Ancient Celts, sorry I don't have it to hand) and Miranda Green's Gods of the Celts. Both are good authors, from an archaeological perspective. But it will involve a lot of sifting through information to get what you want, I think.

I hope that helps :)

[fafonen]

Thanks all of you so much. I had no clue where to start. I am a bit Welsh as well. Mostly English, and probably a 1/4 or an 1/8 or so Welsh, so I might look into some Welsh recon as well as some of the others. Thanks, again.

[fafonen]

But of course, Anglo-Saxon Recon is best :heybaby:

Hah! <sarcasm> Well, as inferior Celtic Reconstructionism may be I think I'd rather stick with it. </sarcasm>

:hehehe:

[Nantonos]

Good post Seren, a couple of detailed questions if I may?


Historically, the Brythonic people of Britain spanned what we now call England, Wales and the southern parts of Scotland (roughly equating with the Borders area). The evidence suggests they all spoke the same language at one time - Brythonic - which is the language Welsh, Cornish and Cumbric all evolved from.
What makes you believe that the Caledonii spoke a different language? (Leaving aside the thorny Picts for now). By 'Borders' do you mean to exclude Strathclyde and the Lothians, or not?


Y Gododdin is probably the most important poem you'll want to look at, since it's thought to have been set in the Yorkshire area. It doesn't give you much - or any - idea about pagan religious beliefs, but it does give you an idea of the kind of society they lived in. Scholars usually use it as an example of the "Celtic" heroic ideal.
Gododdin equated to the north and south parts of the Votadinii, so goes right up to Lothian, yes? Furthermore, I thought that the Gododdin was from the northern (above Hadrrian 's Wall) part?
http://www.cyberscotia.com/ancient-lothian/index.html
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsBritain/BritainGoutodin.htm
http://votadini.biography.ms/
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD400.htm

[Nantonos]

With Celtic Recon you hear so much about specific areas such as Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall even and its easy to find stuff about those types of Celtic Reconstructionism, but my question is...most of my ancestors (as far as I know) are from Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire as well as Devonshire & Somerset and I'd really like to follow a path that has bases in the areas where my ancestors lived...but I don't really know where to start. Is there a type of just plain British Reconstructionism?

Yes, and that would be a good term for it, although some people prefer the later name after a softening sound shift, Brythonic.
Have a look at
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/blackbirdhollins/


I ask because most Celtic Reconstructionists I've talked to have focused in on a certain area in their studies. I've talked to Irish Recons, Cymru Recons and Scottish Recons but I'm at a loss when it comes to how I should try and go about studying the customs of those areas mentioned above. Any ideas?
That is because they are studying later periods when the Celtic speaking range in the British Isles was more fragmented. In some cases they may try to convince you that the areas you are studying have no Celtic heritage, and mumble on about Six Celtic Nations and so on. Tell them to go read a history book :T

[Seren_]

What makes you believe that the Caledonii spoke a different language? (Leaving aside the thorny Picts for now).

It's difficult to leave aside that thorny issue, really. The proper answer is we don't really know what language they spoke...but that doesn't stop people having a guess.

Before the Picts, Dio Cassius (AD c150-235) tells us there were two main tribes occupying the area - the Maetae and the Caledonii - and that they were causing the Roman troops a lot of trouble.

Prior to this, we have other tribal names like the Lugi, Smartae and Caereni occupying areas to the far north of Scotland, so we either have to consider that these tribes weren't known about to writers like Dio Cassius, or that the Caledonii and Maetae had done a good job of amalgamating those tribes into their own political territories by his time.

The Picts are first mentioned in writing in 297 AD by the classical writer Eumenius. By 310 AD, the Picts and the Caledonii are regarded as the same people, with the last separate distinction of "Picts" and "Caledonii" appearing in 313 AD (in the Verona List). Whatever happened, the people occupying that area emerged as a distinct cultural and linguistic entity at some point...but the Caledonian language issue depends entirely on whether you think the Caledonians were synonomous with the Picts, or were a different entity who took over the Caledonians (perhaps the northern tribes, but that doesn't gel with the fact that the Pictish power base was mostly in the south) and changed their language.

And of course it depends on how you view where the Pictish language came from - a pre-Indo-European language that evolved with a Celtic gloss; a Brythonic based language that evolved entirely differently to its southern neighbours - due to isolation, perhaps, lack of Roman contact (but they weren't that isolated, they had a well attested fleet of ships); or something else, perhaps Scandinavian in origin or influence.


By 'Borders' do you mean to exclude Strathclyde and the Lothians, or not?

Not really (any exlcusion is more due to my sloppy geography), but sometimes :) The actual borders seem to have been very fluid, there's plenty of evidence from places like Dumbarton and Din Eidyn (Edinburgh) to suggest that occupancy of those places changed hands occasionally, albeit briefly for the most part. But generally Strathclyde and Lothian were certainly Brythonic.


Gododdin equated to the north and south parts of the Votadinii, so goes right up to Lothian, yes? Furthermore, I thought that the Gododdin was from the northern (above Hadrrian 's Wall) part?
http://www.cyberscotia.com/ancient-lothian/index.html
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsBritain/BritainGoutodin.htm
http://votadini.biography.ms/
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD400.htm

Yes and yes, but the manuscript of the poem itself was found in Wales. The Gododdin area is thought to have extended from Stirling down to the Tyne area, spanning Hadrian's wall, with its capital at Din Eidyn (modern Edinburgh) and another significant stronghold at Traprain Law.

The poem is not set there, however, and relates how the men of Gododdin went down to a place called Catraeth (thought to be Catterick, in Yorkshire, which would have been right in the heart of the Anglo-Saxon Bernician territory), where they had a bloody good time, and died valiantly for the most part. Today we'd probably call it "a bit of a cack-handed effort that went horribly wrong". But as the poet relates, they died heroes.