Would you Convert?

[Amethyst Rose]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?

[charmedkisses1]

convert, if it's true, then it's true.

[Joshua]

I don't believe that the Rapture is an event that will ever take place.

If you are being arrogant for remaining true to your beliefs, then what is your friend doing?

[Amethyst Rose]

I asked the same thing. He told me that if he was proven differently, he would change his beliefs.

[Arinya]

If I was giving undeniable truth? If Jesus drove up to me in his pimped out Heaven-Mobile and said, "Hop in, it's the rapture, dude" and there was no doubt it was all true, I'd convert. Yes, I would be sad, but if the proof were there...how could I not do it? Heh, I guess I could just become a Christian witch then.

[MoonDragn]

Have you asked him the question in reverse? If the rapture comes and nobody on earth is taken away. Would he give up his faith?

Even stranger question, If some alien comes and claims to be from god picking up the earthlings who believe, would he really go?

If he says he would not give up his faith is he just being arrogant also?

If the god of the christians really created the world, then why did he only chose to spread belief in him in only ONE area of the world and not have multiple appearances in various parts of the world at the same time?

Why did he have to convert other people?

[Akhkharu Asgard]

In this hypothetical situation. I would probably convert. I would probably wait awhile. Not only would the fact that millions of people would have dissapeared but the beginning of plagues and the such. The rise of the "antischrist." Since it's not really possible for any religion to say "I'm the true religion." I think that would be a smack on the head for some people.

But that remains to be seen. As for now, I'm sticking with my own ways. I am happy that wait.

[Shanti]

Well from my perspective:
If there was this loving god that cared for the human race, I could see that god as one that approaches people with love and tenderness and understanding....not with destruction, threats and impatients....and fear!

If a god did come and reek hell on earth I would be thinking...not nice god and wouldnt want any part of it. Heck what would it be like in that gods heaven? Fear?

I would let my spirit find a god that I could respect and not be forced to fear!

[soilsigh aingeal]

I don't know how else to put it other than "I would rather die than accept Jesus as my savior" but that's how I see it. I don't think anything could convince me. Even if these things ever happen. And I don't even have a religion.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Have you asked him the question in reverse? If the rapture comes and nobody on earth is taken away. Would he give up his faith?

Even stranger question, If some alien comes and claims to be from god picking up the earthlings who believe, would he really go?

If he says he would not give up his faith is he just being arrogant also?

If the god of the christians really created the world, then why did he only chose to spread belief in him in only ONE area of the world and not have multiple appearances in various parts of the world at the same time?

Why did he have to convert other people?
You bring up a good point (not really the alien one). When Christ was walking the earth and spreading his word and all that, what of the other people around the world. I asked a christian that one time, he said that they would have gone to hell. Only those who except Jesus go to heaven and it's their fault for not searching hard enough. I for one think that is ridiculous.

[AdNoctum]

I wouldn't convert. I'd probably end up fighting for the opposite side.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

If I was giving undeniable truth? If Jesus drove up to me in his pimped out Heaven-Mobile and said, "Hop in, it's the rapture, dude" and there was no doubt it was all true, I'd convert. Yes, I would be sad, but if the proof were there...how could I not do it? Heh, I guess I could just become a Christian witch then.

:rotfl: Yeah, how could you resist then?

[Pilot]

You bring up a good point (not really the alien one). When Christ was walking the earth and spreading his word and all that, what of the other people around the world. I asked a christian that one time, he said that they would have gone to hell. Only those who except Jesus go to heaven and it's their fault for not searching hard enough. I for one think that is ridiculous.

What many Christians cannot and probably never will accept is the fact that the Jews are Gods chosen people. However, many Christians will proclaim things on technicalities and such. Many say things such as, "Well Christianity is a branch of the Jewish religion, therefore we too are chosen".

They are correct when they say that they are a branch from, but not the chosen. There are many ways to argue religious foundations/beliefs etc. but no one in the entire world has truly seen truth in divinity.

I mean, just look back! We (as humanity) have waged war against one another in the name of "God", calling our enemies hethens/pagans/etc. while the so called enemies have faith in the same "God" (Take for example the crusade- Christianity v. Islam)! Yes the religions differ, but as mere men we are to worship this "God" in the way he has dictated. Now I argue that perhaps different socities were taught worship in a manner that fits them.

Christians - Jesus, dictator of the word and son of "God"
Mohammad - Chosen of Allah (translates God), and messenger
And so the list continues!

They all recieved the message in different ways. Take these upper two for example. Jesus meditated on the words of the Lord, and was thus given a new manner of belief (in speculation of course), and Mohammad was said to have been given the words through the angel Gabriel.

Believe these things or not, no one knows the truth! So as to your question: I would convert if the religion made me feel complete, not just because my friend told me I was wrong.

Thats how I see it anyhow-

[Pilot]

I didn't realize how much I had written! :eek:

[Kitfox]

Thing is, it's about really excepting Jesus. You can't just say it. That's why some Christians go and others don't. And even if I converted I wouldn't believe it truely, so I'd die.

Sorry, but just because I'm threatened with death doesn't mean I'm giving up what I truely believe!

[MoonDragn]

Personally I think if jesus and god really existed, he was the god for the people in that area around jerusalem and all the people that have converted. If he has a place in heaven or what not for humans great. good for them. For me, I know my goddess will save me or reincarnate me. So whatever happens She still loves me.

[FestiveLeaf]

Yes I would

Then again I'm agnostic, so this solid proof of something would be quite the experience for me...even if it was that catostrophic.

Even if I wasn't like that, if I thought one way based on my own beliefs...and happened to be proved wrong with solid evidence/proof...then yeah, I'd change my mind. Even I'm not that stubborn 8O

[LadySpyce]

If I had true, solid proof, then I might consider it, but I really think that I have better odds of hitching a ride in with Santa than I do of actually getting any kind of proof. I converted from christianity, it would take a miracle (genuine, see it with my own eyes, the hand of Christ himself kind of miracle) to convert me back.

[Athena-Nadine]

No.

[Verthandi]

The thing about Rapture and Revelation and all that fun stuff is it's not supposed to be in the Bible. It was written to remind Jews that God doesn't want them honouring the Roman gods and if they continued to do so, bad things would happen. Of course, it was written by a guy living in a cave with only mushrooms for sustenance.


He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that.
Wait, wait, wait. You're being arrogant?

I'd ask him politely if you could have his car/stereo/various belongings when the Rapture occurred. ;)

Besides, what makes him, or any others think that they are going to be the ones that are going to be Raptured up? There was only going to be, what, 700k or 770k allowed into heaven. If I remember the wording correctly, those places are held for the tribes or descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And to answer your question, assuming that there is a Rapture, I'll take my chances on Earth. Either way, whether you are Raptured up or not, you're going to die. At least if I remain on Earth, I won't be stuck for eternity with Christians (or Mormons. Kudos to anyone that gets the reference. :p)

[SacredWithin]

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?

I don't know what I would do, but I do know that I would never die for beliefs if I found out they weren't true.

And I'm sure you could get away with Gnostic Christianity as it has a lot of Mysticism.

[Rudas Starblaze]

well, i remember reading something about 12,000 people of each of the 12 tribes of Israel would reach the gates of heaven. thats only 144,000 people. and not just the jews mind you. it takes more then simply converting to be saved. one can say they've taken Jesus as their personal savior all they want. dosent mean crap if one doesnt change the lifestyle they are leading before hand. forgivness is divine, but forgivness only takes place once a person STOPS doing that which they are asking forgiveness for. although i may be christian myself, doesnt mean i will escape the rapture. *crosses fingers though*

[Boogins]

I think he's being arrogant implying his faith is better than yours.

I would choose death too.

[Tsuchimaru]

(True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

Rule? That doesn't sound like my kind of savior. I'd tell him he's wasting his time, pull up a chair, and wait for oblivion.

[Athena-Nadine]

But I wonder--why would Jesus coming down negate your own religious beliefs? Everything I have ever seen about the Rapture states that it only applies to a select few, in either direction. The Abrahamic god is a tribal god just as every other god is. Just because He comes down to get his most fervent followers doesn't mean that my gods don't exist.

He can come if he wants. He has nothing to do with me.

[mothwench]

other: i'd choose what probably most people in the time of the conversions did: convert on the outside, and carry on my traditions in secret.

[Amethyst Rose]

Yes, but you'd actually have to really truely accept Jesus as your savior to be taken up in the rapture....to be saved. So faking it wouldn't do anything. :)

[Rhianna813]

Well I am going to look at this logically (for me at least and I'm not very logical sometimes!). Hypothetically speaking you are asking that if the Rapture is occuring just as your friend has outlined. And there is no longer any guessing about the existence of the Christian God and Jesus would I choose to convert or wait out my 7 years and probably die?

I would choose "die". BUT I must say I am not completely sold on the scenario that your friend is presenting. Others have brought up a valid point. Who is a true believer? Many Christians seem to sell the point that you just must say the words " I accept Jesus..." while others feel strongly that it's how you live and the decisions you make that show you are a true believer. This makes me wonder when Jesus is gathering all the true believers who will really be going? Maybe he would choose me anyway, on merit alone LOL

I am not interested now or in the future to signing up. The only way I can express this is that I have always been weary about the double standard of the Christian God and his rules. Sometimes he is a God of love and other times one of revenge. If he supposedly made all of us in his image and wants us to follow his rules why did he give us free will? Why is there any sort of segregation between us as believers or nonbelievers anyway? Maybe we are all just self absorbed idiots and he should cut us some slack! _wedgie_

So being offered a deal like accept my way, trust me and I will offer you "heaven" or suffer and die..... doesn't hold much stock because I just don't trust the Christian's God word. Betraying my beliefs just to get a free buffet seems like a guarentee backfire anyway.

But in all honesty I know this Rapture scenario wont happen. There are SO many religious doomdays that have never panned out. This one is no different. Your friend sounds like he is looking for a free buffet and would give up his high n mighty beliefs if something more palatable came along.

Ok i'll get off my soapbox now :alol:

Rhianna

[Athena-Nadine]

Well I am going to look at this logically (for me at least and I'm not very logical sometimes!). Hypothetically speaking you are asking that if the Rapture is occuring just as your friend has outlined. And there is no longer any guessing about the existence of the Christian God and Jesus would I choose to convert or wait out my 7 years and probably die?

I would choose "die". BUT I must say I am not completely sold on the scenario that your friend is presenting. Others have brought up a valid point. Who is a true believer? Many Christians seem to sell the point that you just must say the words " I accept Jesus..." while others feel strongly that it's how you live and the decisions you make that show you are a true believer. This makes me wonder when Jesus is gathering all the true believers who will really be going? Maybe he would choose me anyway, on merit alone LOL

I am not interested now or in the future to signing up. The only way I can express this is that I have always been weary about the double standard of the Christian God and his rules. Sometimes he is a God of love and other times one of revenge. If he supposedly made all of us in his image and wants us to follow his rules why did he give us free will? Why is there any sort of segregation between us as believers or nonbelievers anyway? Maybe we are all just self absorbed idiots and he should cut us some slack! _wedgie_

So being offered a deal like accept my way, trust me and I will offer you "heaven" or suffer and die..... doesn't hold much stock because I just don't trust the Christian's God word. Betraying my beliefs just to get a free buffet seems like a guarentee backfire anyway.

But in all honesty I know this Rapture scenario wont happen. There are SO many religious doomdays that have never panned out. This one is no different. Your friend sounds like he is looking for a free buffet and would give up his high n mighty beliefs if something more palatable came along.

Ok i'll get off my soapbox now :alol:

Rhianna
All good points. :)

I have to say that I don't wonder about the truth of the existence of Jesus and His Father. I don't doubt He/They exist. I don't guess about the validity of the existence of my own gods, either. I know They exist as well. So why would I convert and leave the gods I have been loyal to my entire life and Who have Loved, Nurtured, and Protected me for a god who has absolutely nothing to do with me? I have no doubts as to where I am going after I die, and I do not fear it.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Umm, here's a question: Why the heck would he have done any of this to begin with? "Yes, lets create these "humans" have them fall from my grace and then spend lots of time trying to be like me. I'll throw some crazy sins at them to make it hard as hell. Hmm hell, I'll create that too. Gotta have a place for some humans I don't like. Then i'll destroy the world, once I rooted out all the jerkwads, create another one, then maybe i'll come around and rule it."

Couldn't he have just skipped the jerkwads, created "perfect" humans and then ruled? Darnit! I want answers!

[Marishae]

In my humble and stinky opinion... Born again Christians are the worst... they have these blinders on and they can not see anything else after that... they are soooo sure of their way.... and they are soooo sure that if you don't convert with them, then you are just going to go to hell... they are sooooo sure that their way is the right way... and the only way...

Well... I'm sorry... I don't believe in the Christian God... I don't believe in Hell... so... how can I go somewhere I don't believe in? I don't think "Rapture" is going to happen... or maybe it will for the Christians... but... I don't think that is my reality... And I'm sorry, but this really torques me... but... who the hell has the right to tell anyone what to believe? Isn't belief personal? Your own personal belief? I mean, it's fine if you believe what someone else believes... but, you don't have to... I don't believe that there is anything in the world that there is only one way to do... and Christians have this belief, that their religion is the only religion... and the only "right" way... Sorry, that don't dish well with me...

So... I would say, other... I wouldn't die... and I sure as hell wouldn't convert... sorry, been there, done that... really tried... but, realized I was just forcing myself to do something that didn't feel right and that wasn't me... I can't believe in something that... well, let me get off my soap box, I'm sure I've made my point... lol Sorry if I offended anyone, I just have strong view points on this subject... It's cool if you are Christian, and that's what you believe, you are free to believe in what you believe... but it's not for me, and it shouldn't have to be... =)

[Akhkharu Asgard]

In my humble and stinky opinion... Born again Christians are the worst... they have these blinders on and they can not see anything else after that... they are soooo sure of their way.... and they are soooo sure that if you don't convert with them, then you are just going to go to hell... they are sooooo sure that their way is the right way... and the only way...

Well... I'm sorry... I don't believe in the Christian God... I don't believe in Hell... so... how can I go somewhere I don't believe in? I don't think "Rapture" is going to happen... or maybe it will for the Christians... but... I don't think that is my reality... And I'm sorry, but this really torques me... but... who the hell has the right to tell anyone what to believe? Isn't belief personal? Your own personal belief? I mean, it's fine if you believe what someone else believes... but, you don't have to... I don't believe that there is anything in the world that there is only one way to do... and Christians have this belief, that their religion is the only religion... and the only "right" way... Sorry, that don't dish well with me...

So... I would say, other... I wouldn't die... and I sure as hell wouldn't convert... sorry, been there, done that... really tried... but, realized I was just forcing myself to do something that didn't feel right and that wasn't me... I can't believe in something that... well, let me get off my soap box, I'm sure I've made my point... lol Sorry if I offended anyone, I just have strong view points on this subject... It's cool if you are Christian, and that's what you believe, you are free to believe in what you believe... but it's not for me, and it shouldn't have to be... =)

What about those who believed the Earth was flat. It was proven round. Their beliefs were wrong, no matter what they believed. Things can always turn out different than what people belive. And that's something that scares me.

[TaysatWesir]

I knew him once but that was a failed relationship I voted die because any connection to him is dead.

[lednevir]

Jesus is about love he said "God is love',' Look not here nor their for the kingdom of heaven is within' so are you into Jesus or a the nightmares of a man who betrayed him;John?, not talking about John the baptist

[Crystal_Raye]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).
Not to be offensive in any way but when you really think about the Christian views on Armageddon and all that, it sounds really fluffy-ish. Almost like a cult.


I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.
No one can prove whether the Lord and Lady or any other pagan god/desses exist or not either.


He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.
He's the one being arrogant, telling you that your going to Hell because you don't believe what he believes.


Would you convert, or choose to die?
Well since I think all religions are one religion it really wouldn't matter to me.

[Phoenyxfyre]

:fpeek: Well, I do like some Christian views, mmm but na enough ta convert. Sorry, but I seen too many 'Christians' preach one thing & do the exact opposite. :meanhead:
Die. My ways are mine & work for me. The Spirits protect & guide me.

[IvyWitch]

What about those who believed the Earth was flat. It was proven round. Their beliefs were wrong, no matter what they believed. Things can always turn out different than what people belive. And that's something that scares me.

Yes, but we're talking about God.....even if there is only one, I don't really think that He/She/It can fit so neatly into the Christianity box. There's got to be more to it than just what the Bible says, or else how arrogant would we be to say that we humans have all we need to know about God in one book?

[Calen]

Hmm.
As for the hypothetical that was raised, sure. I was raised Christian, but converted to Paganism because I had a stronger connection there. While I'm not planning to jump off the goddesswagon any time soon, if I felt differently some day, of course I would convert. To deny what becomes obvious to you is silly.

[sari0009]

It's my belief that not one but a number of people could potentially become my "true love" so rather than convert religions (far easier than converting actual beliefs I hold), I would choose another potential true love if the one in question was rigid/unyielding. I know what I'm looking for, reject what I cannot tolerate or who throws up the red flags--out of my top picks I'd pick the one that I had real "chemistry" and true love with.

That's what I actually did, I actually faced such a dilemma, for I left behind the handsome Sikh who wanted me to convert and move to Punjab, which I didn't. Instead I found another true love, married him, and yeah ... I'm very happily married.

[charmedkisses1]

Well from my perspective:
If there was this loving god that cared for the human race, I could see that god as one that approaches people with love and tenderness and understanding....not with destruction, threats and impatients....and fear!

If a god did come and reek hell on earth I would be thinking...not nice god and wouldnt want any part of it. Heck what would the it be like in that gods heaven? Fear?

I would let my spirit find a god that I could respect and not be forced to fear!
In Christian Myth, God did NOT create hell for us. In fact, God had nothing to do with hell. Hell was created for Satan. In Christian mythology, Satan is the "not nice" guy you are talking about. Their God's heaven is one of peace, feasting, singing, and dancing, with streets of gold and something or another.
get your myth facts straight ;)

[charmedkisses1]

What about those who believed the Earth was flat. It was proven round. Their beliefs were wrong, no matter what they believed. Things can always turn out different than what people belive. And that's something that scares me.

good answer....

[Wintersteel]

I choose other.. I would die fighting.. _wiz_

[charmedkisses1]

I choose other.. I would die fighting.. _wiz_
fighting for what? _wiz_

[DixieWitch]

Well from my perspective:
If there was this loving god that cared for the human race, I could see that god as one that approaches people with love and tenderness and understanding....not with destruction, threats and impatients....and fear!

If a god did come and reek hell on earth I would be thinking...not nice god and wouldnt want any part of it. Heck what would the it be like in that gods heaven? Fear?

I would let my spirit find a god that I could respect and not be forced to fear!
I agree with you here... As far as converting, no I wouldn't.

[Shanti]

In Christian Myth, God did NOT create hell for us. In fact, God had nothing to do with hell. Hell was created for Satan. In Christian mythology, Satan is the "not nice" guy you are talking about. Their God's heaven is one of peace, feasting, singing, and dancing, with streets of gold and something or another.
get your myth facts straight ;) I NEVER said god created hell.....I said if he "came to reek hell on earth" ( ya know like reek havoc).....read my post straight! ;)

And to add..even if I did say that god created hell, which I didnt, what would it matter? I began my post with...."From my perspective"!!!!! Not..."From mythical fact"!!!! ;)

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Would you rather live with Loki or Thor? (No offense to anyone)
The christian god isn't the only one who would punish others or bring destruction. The christian god is waiting for "the end" to punish those "unruly idiots." There are other gods of other mythologies that would punish people at any time at any place. So we can't take hatred we might have at the christian god out on him. There are others who would deserve that "hatred."

Though Christianity is the only one who seems "hell"bent on conversion.

[Morning Star]

I'd go with death, but I would make sure God didn't take it personally, you know, "its' not You, it's your followers". I would hope not to go to Hell, but hey, it's a small price to pay considering.

[Maverynthia]

I would do what the dragons and fairies would do....

I've seen more evidence on their existance than on God OR Jesus

[SilentDreams]

God nor Jesus nor anyone will get me to change my beliefs by threats of death. I'd die first before I let some higher power control me like that. I chose to believe in paganism, I wasn't forced. I chose to make this a part of my life. When I choose to make children a part of my life I"m not going to ditch them too save my life.

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

A friend of mine at work asked me this same question some time ago, and I was so sad that she would even think that I would "go to hell". Pardon my language please, but what kind of asinine (sp) f*cked up, pile of rotting crap 'belief' is this anyhow? Who in their right mind would actually want to believe that anyone who doesn't accept their way is going to suffer eternally, no matter if they are a good person or not? Why then is everyone forced to believe by means of eternal suffering as the pitfall?

I simply cannot respect this belief (the belief of Hell, not Xtianity) no matter how hard I try. And how could anyone think that Pagan beliefs are so cheap that we can just give them up like that. I wouldn't. They mean more to me than threats of Hell and intolerance.

[ollathair]

While I agree that the Christian God is a God and, therefore, part of Deity I will not, under any circumstances--no way Jose--nuh huh--not friggin' likely, allow anyone to preach to me that this one aspect is greater than any other in that it can save my immortal soul (or is that immoral soul? LOL) That could be also due to the fact that soul is a Christian concept so I probably don't even have one to save (or be immoral with--what a shame LOL)

So, I guess, although I voted other (because it's early morning and only one eye is open right now) I should have said I'd rather DIE a Wicked Wiccan than be a Consummate Christian.

[Carickah]

I voted other. First of all, when faced with absolute proof, it is no longer a matter of faith. Beliefs don't enter into it.

I did not chose death, because we are all part of the living universe. The soul, our part of this escense, will not die in such a manner, but will simply cease to be within this body. It will return to the whole to be reborn anew.

Another point I'd like to make is that the Bible does not say that there are not other gods, just that his followers shall have none before him. Well, that is something that was said to his followers as they left Egypt. I am not a follower of the Jewish and/or Christian God, and therefore, these things were not said to me. Nor does it invalidate my Goddess or indicate that her exsistance is less real.

Just a few points toponder.



k

[serenarian]

I don't believe in conversion as a concept. Beliefs are not set in stone, they change as a person changes. And I would never change my beliefs just in fear of my life. If you believe all divinities are the same, as I do, then it really doesn't matter. Who's to say that the Christian God isn't tolerant of other religions? Who's to say that all the Gods and Goddesses aren't aware of all these religions? It's human nature. Personally, I like to think that the Christian God, Allah, Ganesh and all the other gods and goddesses worshipped all over the world are somewhere on another plane and having a massive party, laughing at all us misguided humans fighting over the issue of their existence on Earth.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

I voted other. First of all, when faced with absolute proof, it is no longer a matter of faith. Beliefs don't enter into it.

I did not chose death, because we are all part of the living universe. The soul, our part of this escense, will not die in such a manner, but will simply cease to be within this body. It will return to the whole to be reborn anew.

Another point I'd like to make is that the Bible does not say that there are not other gods, just that his followers shall have none before him. Well, that is something that was said to his followers as they left Egypt. I am not a follower of the Jewish and/or Christian God, and therefore, these things were not said to me. Nor does it invalidate my Goddess or indicate that her exsistance is less real.

Just a few points toponder.



k



You may be right on the bible saying other gods may exist. One of the ten commandments is Thou Shalt have no other gods before me. But most of the other gods represented in the bible were just pointless idols made up for some reason. Seemingly people who wanted a faith of mindless worship and ritual.

This thread is killing me.

To all those who would die. Hypothetically, if Christianity were proven to be the only true way and you died for your beliefs and you were sent to hell to be tormented for eternity, would you have regrets then?

[zakzekezedd]

I guess I'd just die! I think the ultimate in arrogance is demanding that "everyone" accept "your" beliefs as the only truth or face dire consequences.
I don't believe in Armageddon or the Rapture. I don't believe that one day X number of people will mysteriously disappear from this Earth (although right now I have a few folks I'd like to see disappear from this and any other Earth I'm occupying...but that's another matter entirely). Will there be a time of plagues and natural disasters? Yes, that is likely! But if one looks at history there have been other periods of plagues and disasters too. To some extent those times were "End Times". Not necessarily in the Biblical sense, but in the sense that as a result of those events the human race did seem to move on to a different level of consciousness--a new way of seeing the world and "our" place in it. It's happened before, so there is no reason to think it won't happen again.
Besides, I'm stubborn enough and ornery enough that any kind of "Do it my why or else!" tends to make me all the more determined to do the exact opposite.

[WitchJezebel]

I have to say that I don't wonder about the truth of the existence of Jesus and His Father. I don't doubt He/They exist. I don't guess about the validity of the existence of my own gods, either. I know They exist as well. So why would I convert and leave the gods I have been loyal to my entire life and Who have Loved, Nurtured, and Protected me for a god who has absolutely nothing to do with me? I have no doubts as to where I am going after I die, and I do not fear it.

I voted die and I agree with your thoughts. I was actually raised as a Catholic, but I never truly believed in all the hellfire and brimstone threats that were hurled at me. I couldn't understand how a god that supposedly loved us would cast us into the fiery pits without a thought for not accepting his word as truth with no questions.

[WynnJera]

Very good thread AR ....

Wow am I surprized by the replies ...

I would die .. I would never convert .... if JC was to come take me I would wonder about the 10 commandments ... Love thy neighbor .... well I am your neighbor but I just happen to be pagan ... it seems each faith has a set of tenants if you will to try and follow not unlike to 10 commandments ... I feel if you have lived your life no matter what faith you will be fine .....

My only Q is now ... I am kinda shocked at how many would convert ... if you would convert at Rapture .... why not just save yourself the time and do it now ....

please forgive me but you have already betrayed yourself IMHO and your so called faith that you have lived your whole life living then in one single moment JC comes telling you to change all that and you will be saved from Rapture and it will be so ...

JC never saved you during your lifetime of hate from his followers .. did he ... why would he save you now .....

Tell me this how do you know it is not a test from your own God / Goddess / Buddha Higher Power ... to see if you still serve them at this critical point in time at then and only then will you truly be saved ... but hey JC tells me it is so ... so I am a day dream believer and a home coming queen .... :whatgives ...

I guess you were given free will so you may do as you wish ... but my choice is not to betray my pagan heart and soul as 1 graphic blinkie says in a previous post ... I am just amazed so many others would ...

[Joshua]

Wow Wynn, What a great post!

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Faith isn't as solid as fact. If there is fact of something there is no reason to believe otherwise. If Christianity is proven 100% fact at some point in time (hypothetically mind you! Don't tear my head off!), then belief of something else would be something completely ridiculous and foolhardy.

And if people are faced with fact, they will drop what they onced believed. It has happened throughout history (albeit not religion).

[LittlePerson]

If I was sitting somewhere and someone I knew who was christian just started to fade away or float away and Jesus literally said come with me, and I knew it was him maybe. I say maybe. Because also in armegedden, there is supposed to be an anitchrist whom imitates Jesus and for all I know the person who told me to come with him could be the anitchrist after all. And there is supposed to be only so many allowed in according to the hebrew tribes. And it was written to "keep the hebrews in line". And as stated wasn't even supposed to be in the bible. Also, there is a god in the buddhist legends who is supposed to come back for his followers as well, and that legend is older than John's writing. So, I am fairly convinced it won't happen, but hypothetically if it did, I'd have to know for damn sure that the evidence was true, not false, and then maybe I'd follow.

[Garnet]

When the rapture comes, I'm heading next door. My Christian neighbor has great power tools...everything I think I need to fix my house. He won't need them in heaven.

But seriously...

When I converted to Judaism (from Catholicism) years ago, I had to meet with the Rabbi & convince him of my sincerity. I went to school, twice a week, for a year, studying Hebrew, Jewish history, religious tradition, & a bunch of other subjects. I had to write a paper/thesis , then get up in front of the congregation & be accepted into the faith.
Saying that, there is something suspect ( & this is only my opinion ), in a faith that seems to accept anyone who merely says, "Yeah, Jesus is cool...I accept him." To me, it smacks of convenience rather than sincere belief.
And honestly, people who talk of the rapture as if it's in next week's TV schedule annoy me. If the fundies are so certain that the rapture is going to happen...oh, next Tuesday from the way some of them talk, why aren't they being a whole lot nicer to people?
In the Bible, it says, "Judge not, lest thou be judged." From the way some 'Christians' are fighting against almost anything they personally don't believe should be allowed, IMO, their biggest sin is their smug, self-righteous judgemental ideas. I think there are a great many Christians who will be kept waiting in line when their rapture comes. "Sorry, you're not on the list. You can't get in."

[Akhkharu Asgard]

When the rapture comes, I'm heading next door. My Christian neighbor has great power tools...everything I think I need to fix my house. He won't need them in heaven.

But seriously...

When I converted to Judaism (from Catholicism) years ago, I had to meet with the Rabbi & convince him of my sincerity. I went to school, twice a week, for a year, studying Hebrew, Jewish history, religious tradition, & a bunch of other subjects. I had to write a paper/thesis , then get up in front of the congregation & be accepted into the faith.
Saying that, there is something suspect ( & this is only my opinion ), in a faith that seems to accept anyone who merely says, "Yeah, Jesus is cool...I accept him." To me, it smacks of convenience rather than sincere belief.
And honestly, people who talk of the rapture as if it's in next week's TV schedule annoy me. If the fundies are so certain that the rapture is going to happen...oh, next Tuesday from the way some of them talk, why aren't they being a whole lot nicer to people?
In the Bible, it says, "Judge not, lest thou be judged." From the way some 'Christians' are fighting against almost anything they personally don't believe should be allowed, IMO, their biggest sin is their smug, self-righteous judgemental ideas. I think there are a great many Christians who will be kept waiting in line when their rapture comes. "Sorry, you're not on the list. You can't get in."

I think the reason that some christians go crazy over "the end" is because they don't know when the end will actually come. So they will treat it as if the end is tomorrow. But, I agree, there is no reason for selfishness.

[equinox2]

Hi all-

Stromcrow wrote:

I simply cannot respect this belief (the belief of Hell, not Xtianity) no matter how hard I try.

Hell is mentioned again and again in the Bible, and by often Jesus. If a Christian believes the Bible, then Hell is part of their beliefs, so the two (Hell and Christianity) are usually hard to separate. :deviltail

Asgard wrote:

To all those who would die. Hypothetically, if Christianity were proven to be the only true way and you died for your beliefs and you were sent to hell to be tormented for eternity, would you have regrets then?

Stormcrow wrote:

And how could anyone think that Pagan beliefs are so cheap that we can just give them up like that. I wouldn't. They mean more to me than threats of Hell and intolerance.


First, I recognize that this is a hypothetical question, as Asgard pointed out. That’s like me asking “if, hypothetically, pigs could fly, then would you always carry an umbrella?”. If you want to play the game, do so. I known that the premise that the whole Christian interpretation of Revelation and Christ being the only way to an afterlife probably isn't true. The question is asking you to answer as if it were true, even though most of us don’t think it’s true. That’s what a hypothetical question is. So I’ll answer this question, even though I expect pigs to fly before I’d expect “Jesus coming back as described in revelation, because the Bible is literally true”.

OK, I’m assuming that dissent would not be allowed. For instance, if I said “Hi Mr. God of the Bible, I don’t agree with your so called morals, but if you offer escape from torture with no strings attached, I’ll take it.”. If so, then that’s what I’d do. Then I’d go to heaven and be a “conscientious objector” to worship of that deity. I’m assuming that this is not allowed (because allowing it makes the question kinda pointless).

Given the choice between converting to Christianity and agreeing with the morals of the Christian God (and going to heaven) vs. disagreeing and being tortured is the question. In his question, the threat of pain is very real, and I’m further assuming that the problems associated with the idea of heaven didn’t exist (http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj4xlhell.htm).

Now, I see some terrible things in the morality of the Biblical God. First of all (and obviously), it means agreeing with the torture of millions of people. Does anyone deserve that? Even if some (such as a Hitler) do deserve it, then what about people (such as many who posted on this thread) who may not fully expect the pain of the torture, and who have led largely honest, loving, good lives? Obviously this god is all powerful, and their torture is completely within his power to stop at any given moment.

In my mind, to continually torture real, living, feeling people, for the “crime” of not having the “correct” religion is simply heinous. It is far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot, or Hitler, all of which “only” killed their victims, instead of torturing them continually. Think about Anne Frank – she wasn’t a Christian, so she’s eternally tortured. The prison guards at Auschwitz were much more kind than any God who now watches Anne writhe in Hell with the power to stop it, but still just watches. We’ve seen over and over in the Bible that this god tortures or kills innocent people (including women and children) regularly(Num 31: 15, Ex 12:29, etc, etc..) , in addition to the whole "Hell" thing. We've also seen time and again, (Rom, Job, etc.) that questioning the morality of that god is NOT ALLOWED. You buy the morality because god said it and for no other reason you worthless worm you. :flamer: :flamer:

So the question really becomes “Will you, Equinox, look at the torture of innocents, while praising and worshipping the perpetrator? Can you deny your own morality, and call the morality of the God of the Bible correct? Are you subservient to an all-powerful god or instead do you dare to define morality based on respect for people, regardless of the painful consequences? Will you acquiesce, and never raise your voice in protest?”

So if that is indeed the question being asked, then I hope I would have the moral fiber and the integrity to say NO. To say that I will not consent to calling evil good, or to worship someone who commits atrocities such as that. I hope I have the fortitude to call a spade a spade, even knowing that I will be tortured for doing so.

Sitting in this comfortable chair, away from the bloody pliers or shrieks of agony, I say I will stand up for what is right, and opt to feel my body ripped and my blood spilt instead of abandoning my integrity. If it were to really occur, would I have the courage to maintain that, or would I cowardly go with Jesus to heaven, and would I bow to worship one who has the power to stop torture, yet doesn’t lift a finger? I don’t know, but I hope I would have the bravery to stand up for what is right, and not to turn my back on those who would be writhing in agony because the ruling despot didn’t like their religion.

If that god could read my thoughts, and see that I recognized his moral bankruptcy, then I’d probably be screwed whether I pretended to worship him or not. I do not have the ability to honestly love a god who would commit anyone to eternal torture, even if they are bad people – no one deserves that.

I guess in looking at it, I'm glad that it appears that the whole Bible schtick isn't really the way the world is.

This whole question was just asked a couple weeks ago (maybe Christians are having a campaign to ask it). Here is the thread: http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=81078&page=1&pp=10
My post above is copied from my earlier post on this thread, #75.

Love and light-

[Bix]

It would honestly depend on who I love chooses to go and who chooses to stay. I couldn't stand to be away from my family and friends.

[equinox2]

Bix wrote:


It would honestly depend on who I love chooses to go and who chooses to stay. I couldn't stand to be away from my family and friends.

So if most of your family and friends became Christian, but some (say, your uncle & sister) decided not to, you would choose to become Christian, and worship the god who could intervene and stop your sister’s torture, but isn’t doing so? You would be able to see her in agony every day (see the Bible, Luke 16:23) – would you still properly worship?

:hailmol:

Would you feel that you were a good person, and that your sister’s continuing torture day in and day out is right and good? Even if everyone in your family became Christian, would the torture of other people (the Bible says most of the population) be OK? What about me? Would you watch my agony, and be fine with it?

I don’t mean this to be cruel, I’m just thinking of the results of each choice.

Take care-

[6th Angel]

Honestly, if anything like the 7 plages where to happen, I would not attribute it to some divine intervention. I would belive more in a scientific explanation, if I´m going to die in this situation then I´ll die. No "ifs", "ands" or "buts".
And if he where "The savior", he would be almost like Justice....Blind. How can you be a "Creator" and then demand your creations to BELIVE in you or ELSE? There are plenty of good souls in this world that don´t belive in him and would well deserve to be saved.
This is just my opinion.

[Athena-Nadine]

Beautifully said, Wynn and Equinox. I agree wholeheartedly with you both.

I really don't understand how someone can profess to be loyal and faithful to their gods and then turn his/her back on everything s/he believes just like that. *...snaps fingers...* Even if Jesus came for His chosen, why would that mean that your gods would allow you to be tormented for all eternity for not being one of them? Has it occurred to any of you that living with your own gods in Their Afterlife would be seen as one more form of torture by others?

[LittlePerson]

Beautifully said, Wynn and Equinox. I agree wholeheartedly with you both.

I really don't understand how someone can profess to be loyal and faithful to their gods and then turn his/her back on everything s/he believes just like that. *...snaps fingers...* Even if Jesus came for His chosen, why would that mean that your gods would allow you to be tormented for all eternity for not being one of them? Has it occurred to any of you that living with your own gods in Their Afterlife would be seen as one more form of torture by others?That's very interesting how you put that. I can see what you are saying and it is puzzling because everything the Christians believe depends on the interpretation of the Bible. And depending on how one interprets it, one might believe that the afterlife they think that they are getting in honoring other gods, though it may be a good one, is the "wrong and evil" one. Hmm... yes, according to the commandments you shall have no other gods before me makes me think that way when you look at it. But that also depends on if you believe everything you read or the whole bible or even parts of it. And also considering how the bible consists of the Torah and the New Testament, two different religions, it gets even more perplexing.

[Pilot]

Truth is truth! If I was exposed to the utmost truth of the universe I would more than likely bow to this truth. Those who say they wouldn't are probably lying!

To say I don't want the help of God, rather understandable, but on the other hand- to deny truth just because of human liars would be most certainly foolish. Truth is beauty, truth is light and darkness, and the truth shall set us free!


But......I doubt we will see these truths so we must first follow our hearts-

[Amethyst Rose]

Truth is truth! If I was exposed to the utmost truth of the universe I would more than likely bow to this truth. Those who say they wouldn't are probably lying!


Hmmm.... nope, not for me. If Jesus came to me personally and said, come with me, accept me and love me and you will be saved from eternal damnation, I'd have to say, "I'm sorry, but I love my goddess more, and to say differently would be a lie. I will die for those I love, and that includes my goddess."

If an utlimate truth such as this was revealed, that wouldn't change my heart, my beliefs, my faith. Do do so...to say, oh man, I was wrong.... of course I'll follow you jesus, I don't want to suffer for eternity.... well, that'd be a complete betrayal of myself....it would cheapen my faith. Heck....it would prove I had NO faith.

Like Wynn said.... if I would convert in that kinda situation, then what would be stopping me from doing it now?

[Pilot]

Hmmm.... nope, not for me. If Jesus came to me personally and said, come with me, accept me and love me and you will be saved from eternal damnation, I'd have to say, "I'm sorry, but I love my goddess more, and to say differently would be a lie. I will die for those I love, and that includes my goddess."

If an utlimate truth such as this was revealed, that wouldn't change my heart, my beliefs, my faith. Do do so...to say, oh man, I was wrong.... of course I'll follow you jesus, I don't want to suffer for eternity.... well, that'd be a complete betrayal of myself....it would cheapen my faith. Heck....it would prove I had NO faith.

Like Wynn said.... if I would convert in that kinda situation, then what would be stopping me from doing it now?


What would keep you from doinf so now? Lack of truth!

Like I said:
Truth is beauty, truth is light and darkness, and the truth shall set us free!

If you found the truth, and it doesn't lie in Jesus necessarily, just the Divine (or God). No matter the God, if it were the truth then that is what it is -

[Pilot]

No one knows the truth, that is why thoughts are so many and continuous-

[equinox2]

Pilot wrote:

Truth is truth! If I was exposed to the utmost truth of the universe I would more than likely bow to this truth. Those who say they wouldn't are probably lying!

Truth is truth, but that doesn’t mean truth is good. “True” does not equal “good”. For instance, I think it is true that cancer exists and that cancer kills mothers, fathers, sisters and friends. But I don’t think cancer is good, and if I got cancer I would do what I could to fight it, and not just say “oh, well it’s true that cancer exists, so it must be good, so I’ll just submit to it.”.

Imagine you were transported to a universe that was ruled by an evil, sadistic devil, who tortured people and said that all morality was defined by himself. Remember this is a hypothetical question, so please don’t change the question by saying this evil devil is actually good or some such. Now, if that were revealed as truth, what would be the moral thing to do? To submit and accept this evil as good, because after all, truth is truth? Or would a truly ethical person fight with every fiber of their being, even if there were no hope of winning, even if the only victory were knowing that you had preserved your integrity? (Makes me think of Gandalf's talk with Pippen in the Lord of the Rings :fpipesmok )

Would a person of integrity just toss all logical moral sense as soon as they were threatened with pain? If ordered by a Nazi general to slaughter Jews and Homosexuals, would a person of integrity turn on the showers and fire up the ovens? Would you consider such a person dignified?

[Pilot]

I understand what you are saying.

Perhaps I should have been more descriptive. I meant, if the absolute Divine were to come to you what would you say when faced with truth? Would you deny this truth out of anger? Would you accept it?


Since we are human we have no sense of the real truth. Sure people stop in now and then and say, "I know truth!" We, humanity, tend to either accept or defy these people. But say the Divine (just say the divine, not devils exclude humans meaning Jesus and Muhammad etc) came to you directly and didn't give you a mission, more or less told you the truth of things. That is truth, be good or bad it is truth!

Let us neglect good and evil but in its place rest the divine (neutral shall we say)-

Would you then have no choice but to accept it?

[Amethyst Rose]

Would a person of integrity just toss all logical moral sense as soon as they were threatened with pain? If ordered by a Nazi general to slaughter Jews and Homosexuals, would a person of integrity turn on the showers and fire up the ovens? Would you consider such a person dignified?

Interesting you brought that up. I watched a documentary on death camps last night, and there were hundreds of Jews operating the gas chambers, and they did it, so they wouldn't be killed.
If I was in that situation, I'd rather be killed than responsible for the deaths of millions.
It's the same kinda thing... I'd rather die, than sit back nice and comfortable with God in the knowlege that millions of people are being tortured for eternity.

[Pilot]

If an utlimate truth such as this was revealed, that wouldn't change my heart, my beliefs, my faith. Do do so...to say, oh man, I was wrong.... of course I'll follow you jesus, I don't want to suffer for eternity.... well, that'd be a complete betrayal of myself....it would cheapen my faith. Heck....it would prove I had NO faith


I see your point. Yet, I believe that all divine is one - so in that respect - how could you deny the Goddess if she told you the people had twisted things to the point of no return (which is basically every main-stream religion I know)?

I mean certainly, I despise God/Gods so often, but in honesty I hate mankind more as they are the ones who twist and destroy things. (Huamnity mixed with God= Confusion, Rage, Bigotry, War, etc.-)


If my way of thought offends anyone, I just want to apologize right now-Sorry all' :wave:

[Amethyst Rose]

I see your point. Yet, I believe that all divine is one - so in that respect - how could you deny the Goddess if she told you the people had twisted things to the point of no return (which is basically every main-stream religion I know)?


Ah, well that's different. I also believe that all gods are the same god, (although many people don't believe that). However, it's not a matter of saying, I believe in god, I just call him/her a different name. It's a question of accepting Jesus as your savor and forgiver of your sins.

It's the accepting of Jesus that I couldn't handle, cuz I don't believe in sin.

[Pilot]

Oh, sorry, I think I manipulated the original question! Well I will just go over here and :twitch: :smash:

Sorry again!

[Pilot]

Okay now that I know we meant Jesus, I could never accept a man as God, though a smart man he may have been, never-

[Amethyst Rose]

Oh, sorry, I think I manipulated the original question! Well I will just go over here and :twitch: :smash:

Sorry again!


No problem. :) It's just that that's what it would be take for your soul to be saved so you could be taken in the rapture.

Now, the reason I have difficulty with that is because I think that the worship (although, I was recently told that Christians dont' "worship" Jesus) of Jesus takes away from the glory of god....that it's like he's put in second place. And yes, I know that Jesus IS God....but...eh, that's just confusing. I still feel like god doesn't get the credit he does, cuz this Jesus guy keeps taking it all. :)

I never said I was a logical person. :)

Hmm.....feel like I've gone off track here.....

[MoonDragn]

What would keep you from doinf so now? Lack of truth!

Like I said:
Truth is beauty, truth is light and darkness, and the truth shall set us free!

If you found the truth, and it doesn't lie in Jesus necessarily, just the Divine (or God). No matter the God, if it were the truth then that is what it is -

Truth is subjective, one person's truth is another person's lie. There is no such thing as truth, just facts and opinions.

[Pilot]

Well, i didn't mean humanities truth-

[MoonDragn]

What about those who believed the Earth was flat. It was proven round. Their beliefs were wrong, no matter what they believed. Things can always turn out different than what people belive. And that's something that scares me.

What if the earth was flat, by existing as an endless plain on multiple dimensions? Just because we proved one scientific fact doesn't mean there won't be other scientific facts to disprove it. Facts are just true for the perception of the moment.

in the bible the first commandment was : I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other God's before me

Notice that he acknowledges there are other Gods... If other gods didn't exist, wouldn't he have worded that differently?

[Luminessence]

I would convert. If it were that obvious that Christianity was true, then I would have to accept it.

[Pilot]

What if the earth was flat, by existing as an endless plain on multiple dimensions? Just because we proved one scientific fact doesn't mean there won't be other scientific facts to disprove it. Facts are just true for the perception of the moment.

in the bible the first commandment was : I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other God's before me

Notice that he acknowledges there are other Gods... If other gods didn't exist, wouldn't he have worded that differently?


I believe that God, whatever, means man shall not create Gods to worship in his place. I don't believe he is acknowledging other gods-

[MoonDragn]

You may be right on the bible saying other gods may exist. One of the ten commandments is Thou Shalt have no other gods before me. But most of the other gods represented in the bible were just pointless idols made up for some reason. Seemingly people who wanted a faith of mindless worship and ritual.

This thread is killing me.

To all those who would die. Hypothetically, if Christianity were proven to be the only true way and you died for your beliefs and you were sent to hell to be tormented for eternity, would you have regrets then?

No, because it is MY belief that the Hypothetical situation would NEVER happen. It is part of my belief, if something ever happens that may SEEM like that it is the true way, I would question it. It is invalid because the logic of the whole idea of heaven, hell, and rapture is beyond logical. It makes no sense whatsoever and alot of the so called facts about it in the bible are contradictory to each other. So the chances of it ever happening like the way its described are zero to nil.

I ask you again, if you found that you were genetically engineered by an alien race, and that the voice of "GOD" was actually one of the aliens who did the work who talked to moses, what would you do? If this became evident as the truth, would you totally abandon your God?

If you believed that this is an rediculous question, it is no more rediculous than the original hypothetical question posed.

[LittlePerson]

I don't think pilot went off in a wrong direction. Anyway, this has got me to thinking. Like I said before the key is in interpretation. Now are we saying that belief is the only thing that means a ticket to heaven? Because what if like others have said they believe in Jesus as a god, just not the God, or that he's part of God. Anyway, are we talking about do we believe that Jesus is God? Or is it that we believe that Jesus is the savior and that we are supposed to believe only he can save us over his father? Also, do good works enter into it at all? Also, the comment earlier about if someone has not heard of Jesus that they'll go to hell, is the main reason there are missionaries (despite money making out of it). And that really makes me think like equinox about God's morals.

If we suppose that God truly damns those that don't believe in him as Jesus or that Jesus is savior (which in my opinion are two different things based on the interpretation of trinity and who God is and isn't), then based on that God's morals do seem wrong, selfishness. That is what made me leave behind Christianity to begin with. I believed that it was up to me to convert those I loved who weren't Christian. I knew that they were good people who didn't deserve eternal torment, (and like equinox said universalism which is that all people don't deseve eternal torment). And the more I tried to convert them, the heavier the burden felt on me to do so, and I finally cracked, realizing that I was trying to change their free will. And I was so depressed to think that someone who has been more charitable in the heart than me would not be saved just because he didn't believe Jesus was God and savior, made me so miserable that I knew I didn't want to believe in a selfish and mean god like that. So, that said, if the rapture happened today and I saw myself leaving (if I was still christian hypothetically speaking), and saw my loved ones not leaving though I knew that they deserved an afterlife with God (note I didn't say a good afterlife, just that it was with God), and they could not go, I don't think I'd want to leave them behind.

And so, it also comes down to caring more about one another than caring for God or what God wants as apposed to what we need (caring, giving, sharing, love, compassion, peace). It's crazy. Truth and evidence are one thing, but there is a good point that it doesn't mean that the truth is necessarily "good".

Oy.

[Pilot]

LittlePerson: I agree

But in rapture terms LittlePerson, and this is just a thought, do you think maybe God would give a taken (lets say you) the chance to go back and try to teach the people the truth?

[MoonDragn]

I ask you another question Pilot, what if the rapture came. People are taken. They find themselves in a hold in a spaceship and realize that they are not being taken to heaven but instead to a alien slaughterhouse to be eaten. What if the so called savior of humanity was just breeding them like cattle?

These types of hypothetical questions are just that hypothetical. They do not respect anyone's faith/religion and all they do is spread more ignorance.

Faith is something that transcend facts. Even if the rapture would seemingly occur doesn't mean it has actually happened. In the above situation, if you had accepted because you saw your christian friends vanish, you would have suffered the same fate as them. How can you prove that it was the true rapture? You went with the rest of the people. The people back on earth would never know for sure.

[Pilot]

Who cares about hypothetical things? And who is spreading ignorance? This is more like an enlightenment to the views of others!

[MoonDragn]

Who cares about hypothetical things? And who is spreading ignorance? This is more like an enlightenment to the views of others!

How is it an enlightenment? All I did with my hypothetic questions is to take the whole basis of the Christian faith apart. That really is what the original question is doing, taking the basis of other faiths apart. Since its never happened, if it ever happens you couldn't prove it, and if you are dead and ended up in hell you couldn't tell others about it. So It would have no effect other than thousands of people missing. Gee, ever hear stories of people being abducted by aliens? How do you know that it wasn't really the rapture, that the end of the world was already upon us, and we were the ones that were left behind already?

[equinox2]

I know it's been a while, I can only post a little, so I'm catching up from when I was involved with the discussion.
**************************************
Pilot wrote:

Perhaps I should have been more descriptive. I meant, if the absolute Divine were to come to you what would you say when faced with truth? Would you deny this truth out of anger? Would you accept it?

I think I understand what you are saying. My point is that I would certainly accept the truth as true. In other words, if Jesus were to appear to me and the rapture occurred (and I somehow knew Jesus was not a hallucination or an imposter god), then I would accept that Christianity were true. But, accepting it is true is not judging it to be good, nor is it agreeing with it’s morality. Thus I would accept it as true, but stand up for the respect for all people, knowing I was damning myself to eternal punishment. Oh, now I see that you may have missed the whole “Jesus/Christianity” requirement in the asking of the original question. That may explain a lot. Sorry….

For instance, in the alternate universe scenario in my last post, you could accept that this sadistic devil did indeed rule the universe (you’d be in denial not to accept that truth). How you judged that truth is a different matter. Similarly, I accept that it is true that Alzheimer’s disease destroys a person’s very self, leaving them an empty shadow of what they used to be. I don’t think that the truth of Alzheimer’s is good, beautiful, or nice. I think it is naïve to think that if something is true, it must be good or even neutral.

In fact, I don’t know that the divine is purely good, neutral or partially evil. If the divine is in complete control, then all the evil in the world proves to me that it can’t be all good, while all the good and beauty in the world proves that it can’t be all evil. Of course, a controlling divinity may not exist at all. But in these hypothetical questions, all that uncertainty is gone, and all that remains is our moral response.

Does any of that make sense?

*************************************

On another note - the entire premise of the original question was "what would you do if **IF*** the rapture happened and Christianity/the Bible were true? That means non-Christians go to hell, Jesus/god/trinity actually is the supreme ruler of the universe, etc. I know that isn't the case, but a hypothetical question means that we assume it is for the discussion. If one won't assume it is true for the discussion, then fine, don't discuss it.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just pointing out that the many people who said "it'll never happen!" are missing the question. I don't think it'll ever really happen either, it's just a discussion. :hmmmmm:

I gotta go - end of the day for me.

Love and light-

[LittlePerson]

LittlePerson: I agree

But in rapture terms LittlePerson, and this is just a thought, do you think maybe God would give a taken (lets say you) the chance to go back and try to teach the people the truth?Maybe, I don't know. Depends on what that truth is. Would it be that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is savior, or both? Or would it be that deeds are nothing and belief is everything? I don't know unless it happened and what the truth is. Also, if like I said the non taken were people more good hearted than me, probably not, since Jesus is being selfish in just choosing believers over doers. To me, hell is up for grabs over what it really is also. So that makes a difference too. If hell is real and truth, depending on what it really is would make my decision change. The thing is, that those who are "born again" choose to believe what they want to now to make themselves feel better about what they don't know in the end. Also, what if God is a God who damns those who believe in him and saves those who don't (philosphy question), but it's not likely to happen, so it's better to believe than not to believe. Anyway, have to leave work now, will post more later. I would know what I would do if/when the situation occurs. Not before. How can we know before if we don't know if/when it will happen?

[WynnJera]

Wow Wynn, What a great post!

Thx ... Came from the heart :hugz :

[Ron]

I would rather die than dignify such a propagranda-laden theology.

[Raidenmaru]

I haven't read too many of the previous posts, here we go. I do accept Christianity* as valid, but *= not in the sense of the organized religion. The conservative Christianity of today has been perverted and distorted. And as for Jesus... great person, welcome into my heart jst as much as my other colleagues - but chances are some of the descriptions of him have been tweaked or made up.

Armageddon, Ragnarok, whatever. Even the news stations will be disagreeing about which one it is.

[WynnJera]

I do not need truth to let me see nor trust that my Goddess is real ....

movie quote time ... I know kinda hooky .... but well meant ... from " City Of Angels "

Seth: You're a good doctor.
Maggie: How do you know?
Seth: I have a feeling.
Maggie: Yeah, well that's pretty flimsy evidence.
Seth: Close your eyes. Just for a second... what am I doing?
Maggie: You're... touching me.
Seth: How do you know?
Maggie: Because, I feel it.
Seth: You should trust that. You don't trust it enough.

Now if JC was to come and tell me everything I have trusted in my whole life was a lie and I would have to convert or die ... I would die ... you wanna know why .... I hear the birds sing every day ... I feel the sun on my face when I wake up .... I feel and see the Goddess in everything I do and nothing JC could do or say could change that.... That is the only TRUTH I need to feel ... JC has not changed my mind thus far so why would the fear of rapture and death .... I believe in reicarnation .... go area JC hit with your best shot ...

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Here is a quote from the "Word of God" (ie: the Christian Bible). I did some good 'ol fashion research and whipped out my dusty old bible.

Micah 4:5

"All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."

[Gracecat]

Hmmmmm... I thought I grew up with the teaching that once the Rapture comes, that's it. You're stuck with what you got. If you didn't believe before he came, you're out of luck more or less for the immediate ascent into Heaven. You do remain for seven years and based on your conduct I think it's iffy. But nope, there's no second chances from what I learned from 18 years of Sunday bible classes :). If there were, it would be a relaxed stance on salvation and faith.

I'd have to say I'd hang around. There's a story in the bible called the Tower of Babylon. In short, it's a division of culture, language, thought. Using this, it can be argued that God is in favor of difference, and part of that difference could be in the way we believe of the dieties or diety. I flat refuse to believe that someone of better moral character than the Pope himself would fry because his beliefs were a bit different.

[Emilio Fischman]

[...] Would you convert [...] ? To Xianity??? Goddess forbid; perish the thought; the idea makes me sick!

It's preposterous, but if the universe were as they seem to imagine it then I'd want to die and never wake up!

[Sequoia]

Well, I've sort of accepted Jesus already in a fashion... I believe him to have been a great teacher, like Buddha or Mother Theresa. He seemed to truly believe in what he spoke of, tended to be a wholesome person, etc, according to the accounts we have of his life. Most of the BS that the loudmouths of the Christian faith like to talk about really have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus. And technically, I'm not "pagan" in the idea of believing in a pantheon of gods or that sort of thing - nothing in direct conflict with the concept of One God. So... I suppose if Jesus happened to show up, saying "Yeah, the whole thing about love and saving was me, you wanna come? I'm still offering you the chance. :D " Then I probably would ;) It's not like I'd be saying "Gays are bad!" or "Pagans should die!", since Jesus never said anything of that sort. He was mostly about The Love. So... yup. Off with the Rapture Ride!

And I think I said something (several times over) in another thread... if Jesus shows up like that, it means that your gods/goddesses/athiesm is/are null and void... in other words, they don't exist, and are a fantasy (In that theoretical situation). Therefore, waiting around in hell for them to come save your arse is like waiting for the Tooth Fairy to appear in the dentist's office and pay your bill for you.

[Iora Rua]

I'm going to chime in here for a second... :)

Respectfully, I think those on here that do not accept the scenario...do indeed have valid responses, as well. Realistically, their responses now...would probably be the same/ similar ones if faced with this hypothetical situation. I.E. Christ doesn't exist, or Christianity is invalid, or cruel/evil and etc and so on....therefore, the scenario doesn't matter even if it should happen.

I feel the same way.

(Warning! Those of Christian faith may find this opinion piece offensive. I do not mean it to be so.)

I was a Christian for longer than many members here have been alive (decades upon decades...3 to be exact). I was NEVER a content one. Too many contradictions...and I could NEVER embrace Christ. The bible is rife with contradictions, Christ's own words contradict themselves on numerous occasions. It is pretty well agreed upon within scholarly circles that Christianity itself is a compilation and rewrite of previously existing pagan faiths....hence, Christianity itself is pagan. There is incredible doubt as to the actual existence of a Christ character due to the pre-existance of 20+ some odd dieties with similar stories/myths.

ANYHOW...what I'm driving at here is this: No, I wouldn't convert. I questions things forwards and backwards...that's how my mind ticks (as I'm sure everyone else's does, as well). I'm not happy until I've been able to shred something. If it still holds together after that...great! I adopt it into my belief system. Christianity doesn't stand up under that scrutiny. There is no reason to indicate that it would for me (considering that I believe that Christ was a fabricated character) in the future.

I believe that organized religions (for the most part) have been and probably always will be man's invention. His/her attempt to make sense of the universe and divinity by taking one small truth and embellishing the heck out of it. As it is man's attempt to explain the "unexplainable" it is also laden with man's mistakes....and has precipitated (in the name of religion) the worst attrocities this planet has been witness too. That isn't divine. Neither is the "do it this way, worship this god/dess" or be damned to eternal suffering and torture.

Do I believe in an intelligent universal force(s) of some sort? Yep. Some of that belief is based upon research, other of it faith and life's experiences..the rest of it wishful thinking. Now, another person's mileage will obviously vary. I believe divinity/ies rules are/were quite simple. Man elaborated on them. When man elaborates...things get mucked up.

Anyways...No. I would not convert. Not a valid scenario for me...now, or if it happened someday down the road. Nor is it one that as a feeling caring child of this universe, that I could swallow or ride along with and maintain my integrity, balance and etc. considering what would be asked of me and the track record of the religion itself.

I believe that everyone should be able to choose their path without fear of recrimination. There is not "One" right path....there are many...all equally valid as the next. In a perfect world....

One final BTW...many Christians don't believe in the rapture scenario at all. ;) I didn't when still a "card-carrying" Christian AND, I have been shunned by family members (parents, sister) due to my falling from the fold. I've been damned to he!! in more ways than I can shake a stick at. I figure that there's already a place in "he!!" with my name on it...just a-waiting for me. I don't like to disappoint. ;) :lol: :D

Sorry so ranty and long-winded!! This topic really irritates that burr under my saddle...twists the panties in a knot....

Iora

[Zophael]

Convert.
I accept truth, but this isn't quite the rosey scenario I remember in the book of revelations.

I seem to remember a passage that a friend pointed out to me in which everyone without exception suffers before being given the option to join the faithful or be damned. Needless to say we both felt any god that would have such a plan is a rotten bastard.

[LittlePerson]

Here is a quote from the "Word of God" (ie: the Christian Bible). I did some good 'ol fashion research and whipped out my dusty old bible.

Micah 4:5

"All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."
This is rather interesting. Again it harkens back to God believing that other gods exist as in the "you shall have no other gods before me". Now, of course we could say that the bible being man written, not god written, makes man believe that there should be no other gods before Jesus (or the trinity whatever), instead of God believing and saying that. So, it does make one wonder if salvation and damnation of his followers is only for them. But if that is true, then why is damnation supposed to be for non followers? Hmm, all rather confusing if you ask me.

[LittlePerson]

This part has always made me believe that it is in God (the father) that Jesus wanted us to believe in and worship, not him.

It is Rev 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I'm going to chime in here for a second... :)

Respectfully, I think those on here that do not accept the scenario...do indeed have valid responses, as well. Realistically, their responses now...would probably be the same/ similar ones if faced with this hypothetical situation. I.E. Christ doesn't exist, or Christianity is invalid, or cruel/evil and etc and so on....therefore, the scenario doesn't matter even if it should happen.....Anyways...No. I would not convert. Not a valid scenario for me...now, or if it happened someday down the road.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say--and WynnJera and a few others. But for me, it goes a bit beyond that. I believe in my gods, but I believe in all gods as finite and limited beings; perhaps in touch with their powers more than we are--but not by any means of the imagination, unlimited.

Neither do I believe in a universal consciousness as being deity. Oh, I do believe in a universal force, but only as pure energy--not as calculating or thinking in the terms that humanity tends to view it. I do not think this force gives a whit, or even knows about our existence, because I view it as genderless, nameless, nebulous...just energy.

Therefore, I place no credence in the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient god--let alone one petty enough to whine about people not believing in him and throw temper tantrums by destroying those who don't.

To me, the whole scenario is too far-fetched to even give hypothetical thought to. If someone 'came down' claiming to be Jesus, I'd give him as much credence and validity as I would a flying saucer full of aliens...meaning that yeah, whoever it is might exist, but am I really going to trust anything they say unconditionally? Not likely...I don't even trust my family unconditionally.

So convert? In my belief/perception of the universe, there would be no occasion to because the entire scenario simply isn't going to happen. (And when I was a Christian, my church believed in neither the Rapture, nor in hell as a flaming pit...they believed that those who wouldn't accept Jesus as the savior of God would be permanently destroyed/obliterated).

Yasmine :colorful:

[Pilot]

How is it an enlightenment? All I did with my hypothetic questions is to take the whole basis of the Christian faith apart. That really is what the original question is doing, taking the basis of other faiths apart. Since its never happened, if it ever happens you couldn't prove it, and if you are dead and ended up in hell you couldn't tell others about it. So It would have no effect other than thousands of people missing. Gee, ever hear stories of people being abducted by aliens? How do you know that it wasn't really the rapture, that the end of the world was already upon us, and we were the ones that were left behind already?

We will never know such things, so in that sense we are all wrong and right, are we not? Perhaps we are truly enlightened when we know we are wrong yes?

Of course it is all speculation-

[Pilot]

This is rather interesting. Again it harkens back to God believing that other gods exist as in the "you shall have no other gods before me". Now, of course we could say that the bible being man written, not god written, makes man believe that there should be no other gods before Jesus (or the trinity whatever), instead of God believing and saying that. So, it does make one wonder if salvation and damnation of his followers is only for them. But if that is true, then why is damnation supposed to be for non followers? Hmm, all rather confusing if you ask me.

Yes it is rather interesting!

If God, or the divine rather, are unified does that ever make you wonder if possibly more than simply one religion (meaning all) are subject to the judgement of the divine?!

Just a question-

[MoonDragn]

Well you never did answer my question Pilot, what would you have done if god was really made up by aliens who engineered humans. If you found it as the Truth, would you stop believing in god?

[Pilot]

Well you never did answer my question Pilot, what would you have done if god was really made up by aliens who engineered humans. If you found it as the Truth, would you stop believing in god?

Look- If that was absolute truth (GOOD or BAD), if it was the absolute truth, I would indeed accept it-


Now your turn, would you?

[i_am_serenity16]

As far as converting goes... I was raised christian and never liked it. I felt that satan was a scare tatic and that was wrong. So no I would have no reason to convert back.

[MoonDragn]

Look- If that was absolute truth (GOOD or BAD), if it was the absolute truth, I would indeed accept it-


Now your turn, would you?


No, cause I am not a stupid mindless sheep waiting for my shepherd.

[Pilot]

Than denying the truth makes you foolish don't you think?

[Pilot]

No, cause I am not a stupid mindless sheep waiting for my shepherd.

I mean you are a man aren't you! You've looked down haven't you, perhaps it is time you look up-

[MoonDragn]

Maybe its time that you looked hard at yourself and why you have faith in the first place, if you are so worried about absolute truth that it can change it.

If I believed in your God, if some aliens came and changed my origins. I would still believe in him. It goes beyond proof. If a little thing like that can change your faith then maybe you don't really belief in him in the first place.

[Pilot]

Maybe its time that you looked hard at yourself and why you have faith in the first place, if you are so worried about absolute truth that it can change it.

If I believed in your God, if some aliens came and changed my origins. I would still believe in him. It goes beyond proof. If a little thing like that can change your faith then maybe you don't really belief in him in the first place.


I have little faith I must admit, but the fact that someone accepts truth as truth does not make them a sheep as you have said in an earlier post in this thread-

[MoonDragn]

It does. Just because everyone else believes it doesn't make it truth. I have said before truth is really relative. There are no absolute truths. We humans try to label and define things that cannot be labeled or defined. Its already been theorized by heisenberg that we cannot be certain of an electrons velocity or location at the same time. I believe reality is just a perception and thats what is defining us. If you can somehow change that perception you can do amazing things.

[Pilot]

It does. Just because everyone else believes it doesn't make it truth. I have said before truth is really relative. There are no absolute truths. We humans try to label and define things that cannot be labeled or defined. Its already been theorized by heisenberg that we cannot be certain of an electrons velocity or location at the same time. I believe reality is just a perception and thats what is defining us. If you can somehow change that perception you can do amazing things.


Acceptance is not a tool of sheep -

I believe I have heard that theory somewhere before, but I am not sure where.

[LittlePerson]

Wow, okay Pilot and Moondragon, let's not get out the fists okay?
This has really got me to thinking some more. Let's say that one thought that the rapture or armageddon was occurring and that Jesus came and told what one thought would be the truth, and so they decided to follow him, what's to say that this person is not being schizophrenic or dillusional?
I have a best friend who has these "episodes" and truly believes things that aren't happening or haven't happened. John may have been dreaming or having visions, or hallucinating, or just coming up with things that aren't real, but could have thought that they are when he saw the things that he wrote in revalations. I have dreams of many things, though it doesn't mean that they are all prophecies that must come true.
So, given this, even if we say that ok, John, your vision is a prophecy and I believe it will come true. What is to say that someone could be having a false vision of it coming true? And so, say that that person is high, or mentally unstable, they could really and truly believe it is happening and just jump right out a window or anything.
And yes, even thing that we say we've proven are real or true, some people still believe that nothing is real. This goes way back to plato and how he believed that nothing on this earth or planet is real, it's all just an illusion or mirror of another world, and that other world is the true world. To say, this is the metaphysical world and the other is physical. Think of the movie The Others to get a similar understanding.
Knowing, believing, they both have to do with perception and interpretation of things we are given and things we can only guess about.
That is what makes religion more difficult for people who cannot "believe" based on things that they cannot see, or taste, or touch, or smell. Faith is based on internal belief of something unknown. Now, if the rapture really occured, the senses would be alert. However, as said before, people who are schizophrenic do believe that things have happened even when they haven't. Apply the same logic to something that hasn't happened.
You two could argue this until we all die. It is mere philosophy.

[Pilot]

You two could argue this until we all die.

Lmfao- yes I suppose you are right littlePerson.

MoonDragn, lets just end all this squabble, it truly takes us nowhere

[Silver_FireStar]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?

I believe that this was the final straw to make me quit christianity alltogether. And that was before I even thought of paganism. In my mind any god who would kill off someone for not believing in him is not worth believing in. I certainly would rather strip him of some powers by not believing in him than give him more by believing in him. Afterall gods only have as much power in this reality as we give them. And any god who would send people to hell and purgatory or wherever else, I'm sure there are nine hells by the catholics, is not a good god. I believe in good. Now I may be naive as I'm frequently told but I would believe in good even when faced with death. And I know I would because I was once given the option of convert or beat off a group threatening to burn me. If I can fend them off I can most certainly fend off god and his spawn.

EDIT fend god off as in not convert even if he did kill me.

[BlackMagicalCat]

if you believed in the fire god,that he would protect you from all fires and flames,and you found yourself in a burning building,would you-A,stay in the building and continue partying with your friends,or-B,head for the door and find a new religion?

[Cornflake_Girl8]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?

If he says you are being arrogant, then I wonder what that makes him???

I chose "other" (homicide, suicide is what I was thinking), otherwise I'd choose "die".

BTW, Armegeddon (sp?) was supposed to happen 5 years ago and it never did. The only way we're going to die by worldwide genocide is by our own hand. Humans are destructive by nature. It's just that simple.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

If he says you are being arrogant, then I wonder what that makes him???

I chose "other" (homicide, suicide is what I was thinking), otherwise I'd choose "die".

BTW, Armegeddon (sp?) was supposed to happen 5 years ago and it never did. The only way we're going to die by worldwide genocide is by our own hand. Humans are destructive by nature. It's just that simple.

Ignorant human beings who find a strange facination with a number with a bunch of zeros in it doesn't mean jack about the end of the world. I haven't seen really anything in the bible that says exactly when the "end" will come. It just says be ready as if it is tomorrow.

Also, a question to you. What do you mean by homicide? The end has come, your gonna start killing people?

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

Something I just thought of: wouldn't it be wrong to do good deeds not just because you are afraid of going to Hell if you don't, but also because you expect some kind of reward for it, the reward of course going to Heaven? Isn't it better to do good just because you want to or like to, and not because you will be getting something in return?

Just a thought really _whistle_

[LittlePerson]

Something I just thought of: wouldn't it be wrong to do good deeds not just because you are afraid of going to Hell if you don't, but also because you expect some kind of reward for it, the reward of course going to Heaven? Isn't it better to do good just because you want to or like to, and not because you will be getting something in return?

Just a thought really _whistle_It is better to do it for the sake of helping others, not yourself. It's like being back in grade school and deciding to follow the rules and share your toys. If you do something nice for the day you get recess, if not, you have to stay inside and do homework. Then, the question is, do you do it for the recess or for the other child who has no toys. When we grow up, it is still the same type of question, only replace toys if you like and replace recess with Heaven.

[Karma Chameleon]

I prefer to die rather than convert.

[triple_D]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?
Facts are facts the main reason I came to paganism was because I could not find the answers that I was looking for in christianity but have found some but not all here. But if the rapture happend and I was left behind then yes I would have to convert because the facts would be right there in front of me. I have read the bible from cover to cover (plus differnt versions) looking for answers and part of me says that the time we have left on this earth is very limited according to the bible. but it also says that if you dont convert there will be one more chance for redeption after 1000 yrs because god will let satin out once more to tempt mankind but after that time if you die without accepting jesus christ as your lord and saviour then you will be cast in hell for all time. the other part of me hopes it's all wrong because I dont wont to be wrong. But I guess that the way it's worded says have all the fun you want but know when its time to stop. Soooooooo I will remain this way until som cataclysmic event proves me wrong.

[Phoenyxfyre]

Something I just thought of: wouldn't it be wrong to do good deeds not just because you are afraid of going to Hell if you don't, but also because you expect some kind of reward for it, the reward of course going to Heaven? Isn't it better to do good just because you want to or like to, and not because you will be getting something in return?

Just a thought really _whistle_
:fpeek:
I agree!! Ya do na do good ta get somethin in return. Ya do it cuz ya wanna or cuz tis the way o yer beliefs.

[barlitone]

I'm just joining in on this one, but here goes.


An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?
Well, if this happens--millions vanish and plagues come back ala Left Behind and its sequel, Left Behind 2: Electric Boogaloo, well, I hate to have to say this but I'm a big enough man to admit that I'm wrong.

After all, one thing atheists have always told me about my religious beliefs--when I was Xtian and even now--is that they need proof to believe. If the Rapture actually happens, well, that's proof! But, it will take something of that magnitude to make me believe that that particular section of the bible will take place literally as written. As it stands, I tend to think that most folks who are close to the gods, no matter what name(s) they give them, have a good chance of a positive afterlife.

So, in this case, yeah, I'd convert. If that makes me weak, well, so what. This is, after all, a rather unlikely thing to have to worry about.

[Cornflake_Girl8]

Ignorant human beings who find a strange facination with a number with a bunch of zeros in it doesn't mean jack about the end of the world. I haven't seen really anything in the bible that says exactly when the "end" will come. It just says be ready as if it is tomorrow.

Also, a question to you. What do you mean by homicide? The end has come, your gonna start killing people?

Which means "live life to the fullest".

Homicide, suicide means that if I was in a situation with a hardcore Christian telling me that I'm going to his "hell" because I don't believe in his god, and I was given the choice of "convert", "die", or "other" I would pick "other"....I would kill him, then I would die. In essence, we'd both be right and we'd both be wrong.

[Selba]

I'd rather wait around for Ragnarok ;)

[Vakri Baldrson]

Personally i think just because one god exsists (and the rapture would prove this) it doesnt negate any other religion infact i think it would in some senses give them much more credence.

If it did come to it though i would die for my religion. Iv sworn many oaths to them and that means more to me than anything else.

[Niamh celtic mist]

I was raised Catholic...Needless to say...been there... done that...won't go back.. :deviltail

[x_pixiedust_x]

I would rather die. If some God was as nasty as that (causing plagues, floods, killing people etc). Then I would never convert to them.

Plus even if it did all happen I still probaly wouldn't believe and just consider it coincidence.

[Gwyndara]

the interesting thing is, is that for every 2,000 christian belifes there are 2,000 christian answers for what the rapture really is.
Just thought I would point it out.

[Twig]

I only see 1 problem with their logic. Namely there is NO such thing as the rapture! If you read the bible cover to cover there is no metion of the word "rapture". It is a present day phenomonen first coined by Hal 'Lindsay if memory serves me correctly in his book "The Late Great Planet Earth".

So it's a moot point.

Would I die for my religion? Yes, I already have and would again if needed.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Pip_Sensei]

Well I used to be heavily involved with Neo-Paganism and demonology and I have felt that Satan was trying to take me to hell seeing as at one point I was praying to demons mentioned in Occult texts and I got EVERYTHING I asked for when I prayed to Pagan Gods or God himself I occasionly got what I wanted but with theses Kabbalistic demons I got anything. Now I personally belive that all these Pagan Gods are diffrent faces of God for example Ra is the face of God that deals with the sun, Aphrodite with love etc.

[Ferre]

Convert? No thanks for a million good reasons. :fishsmack

[soilsigh aingeal]

I would rather die. If some God was as nasty as that (causing plagues, floods, killing people etc). Then I would never convert to them.

Plus even if it did all happen I still probaly wouldn't believe and just consider it coincidence.Ditto, if it did happen, I'd think that I was hallucinating and check myself in.

[Antoninus]

If I was giving undeniable truth? If Jesus drove up to me in his pimped out Heaven-Mobile and said, "Hop in, it's the rapture, dude" and there was no doubt it was all true, I'd convert.
LMAO!!!

I would choose to die. I am a devotee of Athena and I will remain that way untill she tells me otherwise. As arrogant as it may sound, God can thunder untill the Earth splits and I will not accept him or his son.

[Pip_Sensei]

would rather die. If some God was as nasty as that (causing plagues, floods, killing people etc). Then I would never convert to them.

And of course we all know how the Pagan Gods never do anything bad.

[charmedkisses1]

I would rather die. If some God was as nasty as that (causing plagues, floods, killing people etc). Then I would never convert to them.

Plus even if it did all happen I still probaly wouldn't believe and just consider it coincidence.

are you *kidding* me.


:walks off before she says something rude:

[Akhkharu Asgard]

I was watching an episode of Millennium last night. A line struck out at me from the second to last episode of season three. This episode sees the fourth horseman of the apoloypse running rampant throughout the world...in the form of a disese. Anyways, one of the characters made a comment...more of a yell...that the book of Revelation was an archaic text written by those oppressed by the Romans. They had no other outlet, so they wrote this "prophetic" text. That seems slightly more believable to me.

I change my answer from convert. I think I would actually have to *be* in this situation to be able to gauge it correctly. And if I was in that situation, there would be seven years until Jesus actually comes back (from the rise of the antichrist to the comming of Jesus). I might end up waiting to the end of those seven years, unless I died. Then the decision would have been made before me. Point is, I would have to be there. Having fact soved right in your face is the ultimate test of faith.

[equinox2]

Asgard wrote:

… the book of Revelation was an archaic text written by those oppressed by the Romans. They had no other outlet, so they wrote this "prophetic" text. That seems slightly more believable to me.

Oh, yes of course. There are a lot of reasons to think that, and scholars have several reasons to think that, and have thought that for at least 100 years.

The Apocalypse of John (also called the book of Revelation) was written during the persecution of the Roman Emperor Domatian (after Nero died), and contains tons of clear political references to world of that day. For instance, 666 is the number you get when you add up the letters of emperor Nero’s name (in the ancient world, letters were used for numbers, a=1, b=2, etc. In fact, “Nero” can be spelled two ways, and some ancient copies of Rev have 616 as the number of the beast – based on the other spelling. Christians of the day expected Nero to return from the dead to renew his previous bloody persecutions of Christians. Books like revelation were common – just as political cartoons are today. If you’d like to learn about the book of revelation or about any of those early Christian writings, here is a good site: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html. We also have tons of other books like it – the Apocalypse of Moses, the Apocalypse of Peter, etc, etc….. We even have an Apocalypse of Adam (as in Adam & Eve)! Thinking that the Apocalypse of John has any relevance today is simply missing the point of the book.

I didn’t mention this before because the question was “assuming that the rapture occurred as fundamentalists expect”, which means assuming that the Apocalypse of John wasn’t about ancient Rome. So I assumed that – even though I’m about as sure that that the Apocalypse of John was about ancient Rome as I am sure that Napoleon was short (pretty sure).

Love & light-

[DarkWitch]

be happy with what you believe in nevermind what others think as long as your happy personally i would rather die than convert to something i have no belief in :headphone :boing:

[Galaxia]

Ω

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Heh, I was just thinking. If Nero or some other Anti-Christ rose up and started doing stuff. Leave it up to America to kill the crap out of him. End of the apocolypse baby!

[MoonDragn]

Lmfao- yes I suppose you are right littlePerson.

MoonDragn, lets just end all this squabble, it truly takes us nowhere

Who was squabbling? I was showing you the error of your ways ;)

[Pilot]

Who was squabbling? I was showing you the error of your ways ;)

Then perhaps I am an acolyte of the almighty MoonDragn :achug:

[MoonDragn]

That was btw, a comment on how the original question poser sounded. Because he's obviously so enlightened that he can show you the error of your ways and believe you to repent.


Then perhaps I am an acolyte of the almighty MoonDragn :achug:

Learn to think for yourself, instead of having other people think for you :P

[Pilot]

Thats the way it is :p

[Cornflake_Girl8]

Heh, I was just thinking. If Nero or some other Anti-Christ rose up and started doing stuff. Leave it up to America to kill the crap out of him. End of the apocolypse baby!

Yeah baby!! ;-)

[Pure Ahimsa]

I just dont know, I put Other. I'd like to be with my family, so if it was true, I'd convert...so that could be with the ones I love.

But, just because something is true doesnt mean everyone is going to convert. Yes, if it is true, then it is true, but I think people will be like "Fine I accept Jesus, can I be with my family now?".

For instance, their are Pagans in the Pagan Community who believe in the Gods, but dont really have interest in them, they just go on and practice ceremonial magicks and the like.

So, if it was true, I would do whatever it takes to be with my family and all. I do not think I could handle being in heaven while people are being tormented in hell. So that would mean that existence is evil, to me.

[Pure Ahimsa]

Heh, I could always be a Xtian Witch. And see the Gods as aspects of Jesus nehehehehehe.

[zilith]

I wouldn't convert, I'd happily go down into hell. It's actually a really cool place (from what I saw of it from way up at the top).

[Grey]

If the rapture happened Id be SO freaked out... and yes, Id probly end up converting sometime in the next seven years before the the end came. Such proof would be good enough for me. Im more likely to see ragnaroc than armmaggedon though... lol, of course assuming IM right.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

If you think about, you may not have seven years to convert to Christianity if their Apocolypse happens. Whose to say you won't die from the ravages of god via plagues and disasters from his scrolls, bowls, etc...

Ragnarok might be a blast though :viking: :santasmil

But whatever, I would love to be living during the end. That would be the ultimate thing anyone could ever see. The end of the world. Something to tell the kids about :)

[Dark Phoenix]

In case of rapture can I have your car? hypothetically speaking a I would convert but I don't think that will be happening.

[Grey]

Ragnarok might be a blast though :viking: :santasmil

But whatever, I would love to be living during the end. That would be the ultimate thing anyone could ever see. The end of the world. Something to tell the kids about :)

Indeed, I always wondered- once the rapture came, could you still have children? The mormons tell me that once you die you can still have a family and your children can have children in heaven and so on and so on... you get a whole planet to fill up.... crazyness. Still.....

Its a good thing I like the cold.... seven year winter is going to be chilly. Hey? isnt that interesting.... seven year winter, seven years from rapture to armaggedon, theres others out there.... what is it about seven? *sighs* and they say its a lucky number!

[MoonDragn]

No offense to mormons, but that particular one has one too many Ms in it.

His idea of heaven really sounds like aliens taking you to another planet.

[banondraig]

But I wonder--why would Jesus coming down negate your own religious beliefs? Everything I have ever seen about the Rapture states that it only applies to a select few, in either direction. The Abrahamic god is a tribal god just as every other god is. Just because He comes down to get his most fervent followers doesn't mean that my gods don't exist.

He can come if he wants. He has nothing to do with me.

what she said. :)

[Fane Ayuma]

well if that happened, then wouldnt it be proof that jesus does exist????

[Fane Ayuma]

also, i cant go to hell a)its already overcrowded woth christians b)i have never said god or jesus dont/never existed and c)im pretty damn sure if all the pagans on earth were faced with this we could all pull our powers together,whether they be magical/natural/mental and destroy this "God" who wishes to put all the people who follow the bible closer then its actual follwers in hell.

[donatello51]

I have no religion nor do I need one.. I follow nor obey any gods nor godesses nor devils nor demons. My life is mine to live as I wish under whatever rules I decide I wish to live under. I am born with common sense and intuition which I can choose to follow or ignore at my peril. NO amount of proof would ever be enough to make me follow someone or something which claimed to be a god or a godess or a savior or massiah. All books ever held up as the "word of gods" are false. Any book that its readers and followers hold up as the "final answer and proof" is a lie. All books are imaginings and translations and guesses. ALL books are collections of things taken... stolen.. borrowed from other books. ALL books are written by man. NONE are written by gods. Inspired by "gods" means I dreamed it up and I want you to share my DREAM. If I hand this book to you and say READ it and believe. Then if I ask you to follow me... I'm asking you to let me enslave your mind... will.... soul and to own your life. Trust no one with your life. Only a fool believes. A wise man or woman... always doubts... asks... wonders and takes nothing as fact. Only supposition and perhaps experience are real. No one is infallible. No one has the answer. You can only follow the path layed out before you and journey as you must. Listen to council along the way but take nothing as absolute fact.

[Fane Ayuma]

I have no religion nor do I need one.. I follow nor obey any gods nor godesses nor devils nor demons. My life is mine to live as I wish under whatever rules I decide I wish to live under. I am born with common sense and intuition which I can choose to follow or ignore at my peril. NO amount of proof would ever be enough to make me follow someone or something which claimed to be a god or a godess or a savior or massiah. All books ever held up as the "word of gods" are false. Any book that its readers and followers hold up as the "final answer and proof" is a lie. All books are imaginings and translations and guesses. ALL books are collections of things taken... stolen.. borrowed from other books. ALL books are written by man. NONE are written by gods. Inspired by "gods" means I dreamed it up and I want you to share my DREAM. If I hand this book to you and say READ it and believe. Then if I ask you to follow me... I'm asking you to let me enslave your mind... will.... soul and to own your life. Trust no one with your life. Only a fool believes. A wise man or woman... always doubts... asks... wonders and takes nothing as fact. Only supposition and perhaps experience are real. No one is infallible. No one has the answer. You can only follow the path layed out before you and journey as you must. Listen to council along the way but take nothing as absolute fact.



O.k. everyone here so far has expressed opinion, and im sorry but the fact that you dont give an opinion, you just decided to tell us all that the fabric of what we believe is false and all made up is quite simpy offensive,.

The rule on this board is respect, just because you dont believe these things does not make them a lie, and i would thank you if you could refrain from telling me that what i believe is Bullsh*t.

Also if you could refrain from calling us all fools.


You say people should find out and wonder about things themselves.The worlds greatest thinkers have all had religion, the worlds greatest answer-finders are buddhist monks.

[barlitone]

I have no religion nor do I need one.. I follow nor obey any gods nor godesses nor devils nor demons. My life is mine to live as I wish under whatever rules I decide I wish to live under. I am born with common sense and intuition which I can choose to follow or ignore at my peril. NO amount of proof would ever be enough to make me follow someone or something which claimed to be a god or a godess or a savior or massiah. All books ever held up as the "word of gods" are false. Any book that its readers and followers hold up as the "final answer and proof" is a lie. All books are imaginings and translations and guesses. ALL books are collections of things taken... stolen.. borrowed from other books. ALL books are written by man. NONE are written by gods. Inspired by "gods" means I dreamed it up and I want you to share my DREAM. If I hand this book to you and say READ it and believe. Then if I ask you to follow me... I'm asking you to let me enslave your mind... will.... soul and to own your life. Trust no one with your life. Only a fool believes. A wise man or woman... always doubts... asks... wonders and takes nothing as fact. Only supposition and perhaps experience are real. No one is infallible. No one has the answer. You can only follow the path layed out before you and journey as you must. Listen to council along the way but take nothing as absolute fact.

Are you an atheist?

[Happy Shrew]

My beliefs are so mutable that I'd probably just go with it. If Jesus showed up at my front door, we'd probably have one weird conversation.

"So all the stories are real, huh?"
"Yep."
"And you and Dad have been in the driver's seat all this time?"
"Yep."
"Wow. Uh... thanks for putting up with my nonsense."
"Sure, whatever."
"And I can come chill with you guys?"
"Sure."

I bounce among beliefs based on convenience as it is, so for me it's a no-brainer.

[Lilith79]

I was saved years ago. So, technically speaking, I'd be included. Shamed by God, but included.

It doesn't matter to me either way though. I feel that we're all right in our own way. :)

[MockingbirdOxygen]

If I was giving undeniable truth? If Jesus drove up to me in his pimped out Heaven-Mobile and said, "Hop in, it's the rapture, dude" and there was no doubt it was all true, I'd convert. Yes, I would be sad, but if the proof were there...how could I not do it? Heh, I guess I could just become a Christian witch then.
LMFAO!

I have to say that I can't argue with that...

If there were some way to UNDENIABLY prove that it was true... then yeah, I'd be scared shitless and probably want to repent, under that kind of pressure... but I hope it's not all completely true... I don't want to worship a god that is mean enough to send people to hell, either... punishment, I can understand, to learn from our mistakes, but I can't understand hell...

that being said... a few years ago, I did accept Jesus... does that mean I'm forever Christian? I don't know... my views have broadened so much in the last few years...
but anyway, a devout Christian friend of mine once said that if I'd really meant it when I asked him to come into my heart, then yes, I was his. Here's my question: with all the threats of hell, how can anyone be really sure they are sincere when they invite Jesus into their hearts? The only thing I could honestly say to her was that , well, I was sincere that I didn't want to go to some scary fiery eternal hell... that's about the only thing I was sure of... the rest... the rest of all of religion is one, big grey area to me...
:whatgives

[MockingbirdOxygen]

LMFAO!

I have to say that I can't argue with that...

If there were some way to UNDENIABLY prove that it was true... then yeah, I'd be scared shitless and probably want to repent, under that kind of pressure... but I hope it's not all completely true... I don't want to worship a god that is mean enough to send people to hell, either... punishment, I can understand, to learn from our mistakes, but I can't understand hell...

that being said... a few years ago, I did accept Jesus... does that mean I'm forever Christian? I don't know... my views have broadened so much in the last few years...
but anyway, a devout Christian friend of mine once said that if I'd really meant it when I asked him to come into my heart, then yes, I was his. Here's my question: with all the threats of hell, how can anyone be really sure they are sincere when they invite Jesus into their hearts? The only thing I could honestly say to her was that , well, I was sincere that I didn't want to go to some scary fiery eternal hell... that's about the only thing I was sure of... the rest... the rest of all of religion is one, big grey area to me...
:whatgives
mmm but the one thing that keeps going through my mind is "how would I know it was Jesus, and not the devil disguised as Jesus, considering that the bible itself says that he is a master of disguise?" If he has all this power...and granted, the bible makes God and Jesus out to be stronger, but they don't deny that the devil has power in this world... if he has power, then perhaps he would have the ability to magically make people disappear and make me believe he was Jesus... oh wait... this is where I get really confused too... I start thinking that if there is a devil, and he has power among men, and men write the bible, then the devill has probably had a hand in writing the bible, at least, the bible as we know it today... and he's probably the one who threw in those parts about the devil being a master of disguise, so as to throw us off... clever...
:hmmmmm: and has anyone else ever noticed how in our language, "devil" spelled backwards is "lived"? I've even got a line about that in a song... lol... so all who have lived, have devil in them...creepy...

[Amethyst Rose]

You made my brain hurt. :) heheh

[StellaLuna]

I wouldn't convert, because I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my 'saved' life or eternity with a demi-god or his followers who were so narrow-minded to begin with.

If Jesus is the type of 'guy' that will only grant you passage into the blessed afterlife if you stoke his ego and say you believe in him, then take me at the Rapture.

A true peaceful, loving soul wouldn't or shouldn't measure a person that way at Armegeddon.
If "Heaven" is that exclusive...then consider me the outcast.

[Mirrored Wolf]

i voted to die , but i think now that i think about it more , i might convert, might , if there was absalute undiniable proof that god and jesus exsist.

however , ive been thinking , god was the creater of all things right? so A) who created god?? and B) God is the root of all evil >.<

just a little thought

[Grey]

*sighs* The Revelation is pretty strait forward, if it happens, rapture included, Id convert... the proof is in the puddint as they say.

The real question I have to ask when this comes up is "If ragnaroc comes, will you worhop odin or thor? or do you stand with the ice giants?" Personally I find this to be a more likely occurence. Why? because thats my faith gods damn it all.

As for the only way into heaven being jesus and the supposed narrowmindedness of christianity.... quite frankly it makes sense. If your not choosing to be with the pale god then why should you get the props and the rewards of the faithful? This is not the times of our ancesters where entire continents went without being able to even see a christian let alone a bible.
And as for those times, Ive been told time and time again by about 95% of the churches Ive been in that those who did not get a chance to accept god in their lifetime due to lack of knowledge or simply not being in a place where they could be offered him, would get a chance in the afterlife before their judgement. *shrugs* but then I havent seen a verse either way so whatever.

[bbnflpn]

no i would not convert. im sorry but i never have been christian at hart ever and always questioned my friends who were christian as to why they would want to subjct them selfs to such nonsence. i have never felt comfortable in any church, and only go if i absolutly have to (ie: weddings and funerals) and then i leave immideatly. i even tried to read the bible to see what all the noise was about but i kept falling asleep and didnt understand any thing that was written. christianity has never been a fit in my life. i am so relived to be wiccan cause i didnt know what i was before i knew i was differnt but i didnt know what i was. i always had to ask my mom what religon i should put down when ever i went in to the hospital, and the priest would come in my room to make me feel better and i would talk to him for a bit but i would never feel truly comfortable with him. i felt more comfortable with the janitor in my room. ill stop blabbing now

[Nimtrix]

I'm a Christian already, But I'm also a heratic and would most likely be burned at the stake. I tend to take him ( Christ ) as the embodiment of the "Mystery". But as for being "saved" There is scripture that mentions people being "saved" by the "laws" written on their heart. And the word "saved" means something else, he doesn't "save our asses", that's up to us. I will post a new thread about this some other time. Right now I'm at work. BTW. I equate Christ with Cerrunnos. Told you I was a heritic.

[RubyRose]

I'd rather die than convert to Christianity.

[Dragonanzi]

I was Christian for the first part of my life. I'm only 20 so it wasn't that long. I became Agnostic at the age of 11, or as I like to call it, the age of reason. I've only been a Pagan for about a year.

In this time I've come to many conclusions.

1) Christianity is a contradiction in terms.
2) I can't believe in only one god, It's like saying there is only one person.
3) Would you believe in a religion that forbids killing and yet causes war's?
4) If the Pope is god's voice on earth, and The Emperor from Star Wars is truely evil.. why do they look alike... Hey wait.. If the Pope is a Sith Lord.. I would Convert... then Kill him and become the ultimate ruler of the galaxy....
5) The Gods or in this case God must have a sense of humor... Hell, look at humans...

So that's it. If it was Die or convert to something that makes me head hurt from looking at. I'd choose death. I'd rather die as i lived then to live only to be dead.

[Katya]

i would die. i can't stand christianity.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

I don't remember if the terms are "once saved always saved" or if you can truly denounce your saved soul once it alread has been. I was once Christian, pretty devout. Not on the terms of that conversion crap but on the terms of belief. The I sort of strayed away from it, added a goddess and all that. I still read the Bible and follow much of its teaching. It's probably the *best* guide to living a good life no matter what most people's preconceived and/or biased beliefs of the religion are.

I would go fully back, no questions asked, if the Biblical end times were beginning. The vials, scrolls, and bowls, the rise of the antichrist, the two prophets, all of that. When shown that kind of sign, more concrete than anything any other religion has ever shown me I could not deny it. It would be pretty foolhardy for others to ignore it, but quite a few people do. And they are allowed that choice and who the hell am I to say they can't? But that would really tip the scales in the favour of that faith. No other religion has shown me much evidence. All we really have are books and/or ruins, things of that nature. We have to have faith and trust the people of the past. But it really tips the scales when you yourself have evidence before your very eyes.

Now, if Ragnarok occured. I think I would just get drunk because I wouldn't know what the hell to expect. I think that's when I would just run around with guns a blazin' and start looting.

[Sun Lee]

i would convert but i dont like the idea of one supreme being
that and i dont need saving from anyone

[Sun Lee]

that and christianity sucks
i mean i converted to wicca

[Trithemius]

Seeing as how I just can't believe in Christianity for a number of reasons, I would not convert. Jesus could walk right up to me and ask me to go with him, but there are aspects of the religion I simply don't agree with, so I would turn his offer down.

[Amethyst Rose]

Let's not turn this into a Christianity bashing thread, okay peoples? We have a lot of christians on this board, and it's not nice to have a bunch of people saying bad things about their beliefs.

[Sun Lee]

i dont like the idea of someone turning water into wine especialy

Drunk christians

[Sun Lee]

sorry i posted that kinda late oops

[Silverwolfthorn]

if you were asking a similar question to him but within your beliefs im pretty sure he would stick with hisw current beliefs and die regardless. i think its important to be openminded there are so many religions and if only one is right then you havent got a very good chance statistically of getting the right one.

And the end of the day it comes down to your own personal preference and your happiness. Personally speaking i would rather just be dead than go to heaven because i've always thought it would be so boring!
Blessed be
Silver

[Sun Lee]

one last bit ,if this is an online Pagan community why would there be christians here anyway
just askin'

[jetzige]

I asked the same thing. He told me that if he was proven differently, he would change his beliefs.

Well, of course he would change his beliefs. He's already done it once. Is he a JW? I don't believe that Armageddon, as the bible describes it, is going to happen. I do believe that if the human race doesn't figure out what respect for the Earth means that someday this planet won't support life as we need it.

I'm losing my point. If Jesus came down from the heavens and I was SURE it was Jesus (could be Satan trying to trick us) then, yes, I would go with him. I'd then ask to meet his mother.

[Amethyst Rose]

one last bit ,if this is an online Pagan community why would there be christians here anyway
just askin'

This is a spiritual sanctuary for people of ALL religions. All religions are accepted and respected on this board. Now enough of the Christian bashing.... I don't want to get the thread shut down, but I will if anymore comes up.

[Amethyst Rose]

Well, of course he would change his beliefs. He's already done it once. Is he a JW?

No, he's not, though I wondered the same thing after talking to him. He's just plain old non-denominational christian....but he is a bible literalist (believes everything that the bible says), so it was really hard to discuss his beliefs with him.

[Xentor]

i dont like the idea of someone turning water into wine especialy

Drunk christians

You don't need to be Christian to be a drunk.

[Xentor]

This is a spiritual sanctuary for people of ALL religions. All religions are accepted and respected on this board. Now enough of the Christian bashing.... I don't want to get the thread shut down, but I will if anymore comes up.

Hear hear!

[coyoger]

Ok, post got eaten.

I am a pagan through and through. But I see Jesus as a son of a god. (Like Hercules is the son of a god) and therefore real, therefore no need to convert. cuz I beleive in him.

Rather convenient for me hu?

[Happy Shrew]

i dont like the idea of someone turning water into wine especialy

Drunk christians

Are you KIDDING me? If you became his agent, do you have any idea how much money you could make by booking him with frats?
:lookwhats
Now if only we could make it Molson XXX instead of wine...

[Amethyst Rose]

Ok, post got eaten.

I am a pagan through and through. But I see Jesus as a son of a god. (Like Hercules is the son of a god) and therefore real, therefore no need to convert. cuz I beleive in him.

Rather convenient for me hu?


Mmm....not exactly. It's not a matter of just believing in him. It's a matter of accepting him as your personal savior. Do you accept him as your savior? If not (according to the bible), you won't be saved during the rapture.

[LacyRoze]

one last bit ,if this is an online Pagan community why would there be christians here anyway
just askin'

Because some of us, while although Christian, are open minded and wish to learn about others religions and beliefs and expand our own beliefs....

[~DarkDolphyn~]

If I were presented with undeniable proof, I'd probably, very sadly, convert. It would be difficult for me but fact is fact. Although personally I don't think it's a choice I'll ever have to make. Until the christian God himself comes down and looks me straight in the eye, nothing else will convince me that my ways and beliefs are incorrect.

[coyoger]

Mmm....not exactly. It's not a matter of just believing in him. It's a matter of accepting him as your personal savior. Do you accept him as your savior? If not (according to the bible), you won't be saved during the rapture.

Savior? Well I suppose he'd have to save me from something first.

[Amethyst Rose]

Well, the idea is that he died to save all mankind from their sins....so you accept him and he saves you from your sins. So....unless you believe you have sins to be saved from, you can't exactly accept him as your savior.... heh, it just goes on and on. :)

[Calen]

If any particular deity revealed themselves to me and I realized that this was what I needed to do/what my truth was/etc, yes, I would believe. Obviously, one believes things one knows to be true.

If the God of Abraham came down and said 'Hey Laura...you can come to my Heaven if you want, just don't mind the burning corpses of people who don't believe in me on the way up', I would rather go into oblivion than profess belief in an intolerant, vengeful God just to save my skin. I would stay.

Luckily for me, my view of the Divine does not lead me to believe that the latter scenario will play out. I am not worried.

Oh, and I suppose it's not a matter of doing a thing to save yourself, either. I'm sure a God would know whether or not your belief in (and worship of) them was genuine. If you truly believed, you would go, and if you did not, you would be left behind, even if you wished you could be taken too.

[BeachWitch]

Unfortunately, christianity as it is structured today, is the equivalent of death to women. In order to be "saved" a woman must subjugate herself to a man. she can not approach Jesus as her own woman.

Since I believe I am a fully recognized being in the eyes of the Divine, I can not accept the God of Abraham as a woman. Afterall, to go from complete freedom to complete slavery is not exactly living now is it?

The problem with the structure of this poll is that it asks if you accept Jesus as your Personal Savior. It's not that simple. You must accept Him AND live according to the rules set forth in the New Testament.... a book that is completely intolerant to women.

[AuroraSilvermist]

I'd convert.

I'm what I term "agnostic with a twist of Pagan," so when it comes to deity I say, "Show me! I'll believe it when I experience it." At this time, I don't believe in Jesus as a god or savior, although I do accept him as one of a number of enlightened mortals. But if the rapture happened (and I don't believe it will) and Armageddon was at hand, then I would obviously have the proof I need and it would be time to say, "Okay, take me Jesus--I'm with you!"

[MoonDust]

Die

I've been down the Christianity path. I don't agree with it. Why lie to myself and act as if I'm ok to be something I'm not?

[Flar's Freyja]

I don't know - it's one of those situations where I may actually get there and do something completely different.

I've been Christian and while I respect Christ as a god, I don't buy the "born again" salvation story.

[Amethyst Rose]

The problem with the structure of this poll is that it asks if you accept Jesus as your Personal Savior. It's not that simple. You must accept Him AND live according to the rules set forth in the New Testament.... a book that is completely intolerant to women.

The poll was based off of the conversation I had.... my friend made it clear to me that all you needed to be saved was to accept Jesus....that once you accept Jesus, any sins you commit by not following the letter of the bible (because it's not all possible in today's society) will be forgiven, because Jesus takes them into himself.

[orgtigger]

I think someone reposted this question in another thread, I'll answer here just like I did there, I made a COMMITMENT to MY gods and would never turn my back to them, they could take my mind and they could take my body but they could never take my 'Freedom'.
Gods I love braveheart.

[Shadowsong]

You know I don't know. I suppose for me personally it isn't a good time to even _consider_ this... but I'll answer anyway... probably not a good idea but oh well. There are some Christians who believe in God's grace, and that everyone, no matter what, is going to Heaven, if Heaven even exists, because they also believe that all religions come back full circle to the same guiding principles; so long as you don't hurt anyone or do anything stupid and are a good person, what's it matter what you call the Divine? Therefore, come the Rapture, no one will stay and burn.
But I don't believe the so-called Rapture is coming because of the Christian God. We, as the greedy human beings we are, are going to bring it about ourselves, seeing as how we're destroying the earth already. But that's just my two cents.

[Threase]

hmm... I said that I'd rather die, but then I thought about it for a while... IF everyone that was a true believer of Christ suddenly disappeared, and every sign of the Apocolypse was upon us (and I'm talkin like stuff that doesn't normally happen, like fire raining down and stuff), then yeah, I think I'd be inclined to say oops and ask for forgiveness.

P.S. And when I say fire raining down, I don't mean something that humans did and people COULD take as a sign. I'm talking like the plagues happening all over again, true signs of God and his Will.

[Aquarian_Moon]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved and how if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell. Fine, he can believe whatever he wants, i won't begrudge him that.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well.... that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die. (True believers would return to a new Earth to rule with Jesus, and live forever).

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die? Hypothetically, if the Christian God was real and showed himself as a destructive, menacing, killing machine (such as the rapture seems to be), and I wasn't already one of the Chosen few to be removed from the earth beforehand, I would rather die.

But then again, if I felt I was doing something horribly wrong at the time, or had commited too many 'evils' during life, and the God seemed compasionate, then I would probably change my ways, and try to be saved (by Jesus though, hmm.... if he could prove he was real, ok). Yippeee!!! :sailing:

I guess it all depends on what the God would make itself out to be. And yes, I'm saying this very generally, because it would be applicable to any deity that ever showed itself to me.

[Catiana]

If I were presented with undeniable proof, I'd probably, very sadly, convert. It would be difficult for me but fact is fact. Although personally I don't think it's a choice I'll ever have to make. Until the christian God himself comes down and looks me straight in the eye, nothing else will convince me that my ways and beliefs are incorrect.

That's how I feel as well.

[Oridian]

Unfortunately, christianity as it is structured today, is the equivalent of death to women. In order to be "saved" a woman must subjugate herself to a man. she can not approach Jesus as her own woman.

Since I believe I am a fully recognized being in the eyes of the Divine, I can not accept the God of Abraham as a woman. Afterall, to go from complete freedom to complete slavery is not exactly living now is it?

The problem with the structure of this poll is that it asks if you accept Jesus as your Personal Savior. It's not that simple. You must accept Him AND live according to the rules set forth in the New Testament.... a book that is completely intolerant to women.

The same scriptures and ideas you refer to here are often twisted and misused by those claiming to be christian. It is true that the bible teaches different roles for men and women but when one truly studies and gets to the meat of what is taught it is far from oppressive.

here is a link to a site that has a pretty good article on men's biblical responsibilities to thier wives. if you read it you will likely agree with me that we do not often see this side promoted within mainstream chirstianity.

There is much more to this topic but I just wanted to share that the twisted ideas of female servitude often promoted, even among christians, is not the will of God according to the Bible.

Have a wonderful blessed day.

[aida]

I posted this on another similar thread, but the discussion died (hopefully not because of me :D) so I'm posting it here again.

I tried to read this thread whole through but I got bored on page 6 so I skipped the rest of it. Forgive me if this has already been said a thousand times, but... this is why I think everyone who would stay would be acting stupid:

1 As many people have said before me, if Jesus would come back to get us, our faith would be proven wrong. Christianity teaches that there are no other Gods, and if this one true God would suddenly show up and prove his existence well it would be very naive not to believe one's eyes. Because I think everyone here is seeking the truth, and when you close your eyes from the truth when it's right before you - that's just stupid.
2 Being left on earth, I think, wouldn't mean hell, but that we would live our mortal lives to the end, and then vanish. I think that's the treath they're posing: lose your immortal soul for your wrong beliefs.
3 To quote Omar:

The creator god is the Infinite Being or Supper Mind & is pure white light. He created all god .goddesses & Archangels. Then the rest of the Universe & all beings in it whether this planet or another galaxy with there spirit beings.
Couldn't it in this case be possible, that the one God would be the father of our Athena, Hathor, Isis, Afrodite, Freija, and other deities? If Jesus Christ is his son with such amazingly wonderful powers, why not our "so-called" Gods too?

I'm not a christian nor do I support christianity in any way. If this kind of judgement day would come I think I would have to collect my jaw from the floor. But I do think that if this would happen, we would have to adapt to the new conditions with our logic, not our wrong-proven faith.

Sorry if I was insulting, I didn't mean to be :)

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

:lol: I forgot about this thread. I clicked in to see if I had voted and I was one of the many that chose 'die' that just cracked me up.

[BeachWitch]

The same scriptures and ideas you refer to here are often twisted and misused by those claiming to be christian. It is true that the bible teaches different roles for men and women but when one truly studies and gets to the meat of what is taught it is far from oppressive.

here is a link to a site that has a pretty good article on men's biblical responsibilities to thier wives. if you read it you will likely agree with me that we do not often see this side promoted within mainstream chirstianity.

There is much more to this topic but I just wanted to share that the twisted ideas of female servitude often promoted, even among christians, is not the will of God according to the Bible.

Have a wonderful blessed day.

the scriptures you are refering to are found within the Old Testament. This poll and topic is specific to Christianity as it is practiced today, with the sole message from Acts through Jude that Christ is a personal savior.

Using that criteria, the references in scripture you point to are out of scope.

There are absolutely no female friendly scriptures within the New Testament between Acts and Jude. By all means, I would love to see them.

[DracoJesi]

id choose to die, im not a biblical scholar or anything but if hes god why cant he just sto it? I mean he is supposed to be all powerful right? I mean how could I ever believe in someone who lets war,disease, famine and death exist if he's all powerful, I dunno thats the way I always felt, I mean hes god he let his son die? why couldnt he have tried to work it out peacefuly? thats my oppinion and it may not be right, who knows, and maybe theres a reason thingsare that way, but I dont understand it, and even if I was given an explanation, it all comes down to one thing, I dont like being told what I can and cannot think, and if someone told me I had in such a way where I could not have free will, weather it be the Christian God or anyone else for that matter, well we wouldnt get along and I truly believe that if there is a god, and indeed, he is truly the kind of person he is said to be, then he would not act in such a way

just my 2 cents

[Valnorran]

An old friend of mine who used to be pagan converted to Christianity about a year ago, maybe less, and is now "born again". We had a very long conversation, about how he thinks I'm influenced by devils and when I talk to my goddess I'm being decieved
I've always wondered how these people don't know that their concept of Jesus is really Satan in disguise deceiving them and leading them astray.

However he brought up an interesting question.... he said that when the Rapture comes (before the battle of Armageddon), and people (true believers) just disappear from the world, to be with Jesus, the non-believers will be given a chance to accept Jesus, and be taken, as well....
Spending an eternity with these ass clowns is not my idea of heaven.

that we will have 7 years before Armageddon, and that during those seven years plagues will return and millions will die. I would have two choices, accept Jesus, or die.
I'm wondering if Jesus speaks with an Italian accent when he offers us a deal we can't refuse.

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.
Indeed. I would want nothing to do with a god that commanded me to kill my son. That isn't so much a test of faith as it is a sadistic mind game.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that.
Yet when uberchristians hold onto their beliefs they're being strong, loyal, and virtuous. Sorry, but I cannot f***ing stand these people. I hate having them in this life and I sure as hell don't want to spend an eternity with them in the next one. If their philosophy and behavior are "good," then I'm definately turning to the dark side.

[Hærfest Leah]

No I wouldn't convert. They're too wishy washy, "Damn you, we love all, do it or die, all are welcome, your born in sin, lets convert everyone for their own good, your going to hell anyways, Jesus can help you, repent....." Geesh make up your mind, how would you know when to trust them.

[Kudzu]

No matter how true Jesus is or is not, that in and of itself is of no consequence to my own religion. I would never choose to abandon service to my Gods, even if another God were to try to force me from it, or even if circumstances were such that I would die otherwise.

[LittlePerson]

This is ironic and why I believe it is the father and not "the son" whom should be worshipped.
Jesus saying to believe in and worship G-d the father


Mat 7:21-23 KJV
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 12:44 KJV
(44) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.


Jesus saying he is G-d? No, for in the old testament LORD was used as a name for G-d the father. But if he is saying he is G-d he is blaspheming himself or the writer is saying that for him.


Isa 43:10-11 KJV
(10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

[Seshata]

Well I definately WOULDN'T convert. The god Yahweh is just one amongst many gods... I'd remind your friend that it does state in the bible that he said something along the lines of not having any other gods before him ergo other god/desses exist! Thus at the 'rapture' i'd say it's ok, I'll got back to my deities and through them to the source of it all. :)

Also it does depend on what version of the bible your friend is going by....

BB

Seshata

[Necrosapien]

If you also remember, when one of the disciples calls Jesus, "Good", jesus rebukes him and says, "Why do you call me good?" and continues to say that no one is good except the father in heaven. Jesus did not exist as both the father and son... He said that no one knows the day or the hour except my father in heaven. Now, Jesus wasn't in heaven, was he? He was right there on earth saying that to them. There doesn't need to be a supernatural explanation saying that Jesus and the father were the same BEING/PERSON and that the father was simply in two locations at the same exact time. I believe in the diety of Jesus, but in a different light. I don't believe that he is enclosed within a trinity, but seperate from it. This would explain why he didn't know the time nor the hour, and why only his father was called good. Both you and Littleperson have points. Lord is used in many cases to denote title. There are other places in the bible where it is used to denote Godde. YHVH is translated as LORD sometimes. I'm not sure that being "King of the Jews" means that Jesus was YHVH. How did you come to that exact conclusion.

Not to be offensive, but if you came here hoping to "win souls for Christ" you came with the wrong intent.

Blessings.

[Seshata]

for me personally, 'Jesus' was just a person... thing is that the stuff written about him was done quite a while after his death/disappearance. I have no probs with someone's beliefs but just spouting long tracts from the new testament and old (btw the KJV is not the best translation about) is not, I personally feel, what the thread was about...

BB

Seshata

[LittlePerson]

The Hebrew text for the name LORD used in Jeremiah 23:6 is "YHWH" (commonly rendered "Jehovah"), clearly referring to God (and not a social position of man).
you just said it yourself what I was saying. Jesus is not G-d because clearly when you think of gods and half gods like Zues and Hercules you'd see that would be the same of Jesus born from G-d the father and a mortal mother Mary, making him half a god not a full god. He prayed to G-d in third person, talked of Him and His kingdom in the third person, was baptised as a mortal would (if he was fully G-d what need would he have had to be baptised?), and I can offer other examples of his separateness from being G-d. Now, also, what about the fact that he died? Would G-d fully immortal, fully all powerful be able to die? I don't think so. Could he have been "king"? Sure, but even king can have different translations as can "son of man". Also, he didn't fulfilly many of the requirements set forth for the messiah as written in the bible. That is why the Jews do not claim him as messiah and there were many would be messiahs before him. For one thing, the messiah is not supposed to be G-d himself. Second, he was supposed to have been married and lived a long life. He was supposed to rebuild the temple, lead the world into an era of peace (do you see that with all the wars? with all the bloodshed still, and greed and suffering?) and end death. Um, he didn't do these things. And being a noahide and someone who feels closest to Judaism I believe these reasons for not believing Jesus is G-d and worthy of our praise. That alone would be idolatry and blasphemous to worship Jesus and not G-d the Father. Sorry, but I just don't see the whole king making Jesus G-d working here.
Also, not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, this is just what I believe.

[Necrosapien]

you just said it yourself what I was saying. Jesus is not G-d because clearly when you think of gods and half gods like Zues and Hercules you'd see that would be the same of Jesus born from G-d the father and a mortal mother Mary, making him half a god not a full god. He prayed to G-d in third person, talked of Him and His kingdom in the third person, was baptised as a mortal would (if he was fully G-d what need would he have had to be baptised?), and I can offer other examples of his separateness from being G-d. Now, also, what about the fact that he died? Would G-d fully immortal, fully all powerful be able to die? I don't think so. Could he have been "king"? Sure, but even king can have different translations as can "son of man". Also, he didn't fulfilly many of the requirements set forth for the messiah as written in the bible. That is why the Jews do not claim him as messiah and there were many would be messiahs before him. For one thing, the messiah is not supposed to be G-d himself. Second, he was supposed to have been married and lived a long life. He was supposed to rebuild the temple, lead the world into an era of peace (do you see that with all the wars? with all the bloodshed still, and greed and suffering?) and end death. Um, he didn't do these things. And being a noahide and someone who feels closest to Judaism I believe these reasons for not believing Jesus is G-d and worthy of our praise. That alone would be idolatry and blasphemous to worship Jesus and not G-d the Father. Sorry, but I just don't see the whole king making Jesus G-d working here.
Also, not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, this is just what I believe.

I can understand this. Say, would you mind PM'ing me the requirements of the Messiah? I'm curious as to this.

I suppose we ought to get back to topic...

I already consider myself a Christian...so that...er...answers that...lol :fishsmack

[LittlePerson]

N- I don't have them all in my head. However, these are some of the things I picked up whilst studying Judaism from Jewish literature. I would reccomend to you to go to your local library and do some digging as I did if you wish to learn some more. Perhaps that could help in this regard.

LP

[Necrosapien]

Thanks much. I'll see about that when I get to college (well depending on where I go) because there's a good library at one of them.

[Ron]

I'm sorry but I just am going to post this blindly.

IMHO:
The point about "Accepting Yeshua (Jesus)" is about accepting to love others, and to treat them (as well as oneself) with respect, not about accepting the man Yeshua as the almighty Son of Divinity. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) can be interpreted several ways. It can be intepreted as the Ten Commandments were, supposedly, as a set mundane iron fist, OR metaphorically: Whereas what Yeshua respresents would be the only way into paradise (in this case, "Heaven"). Another interpretation, of which I am not akin: "Jesus is the only way to heaven. All other religions lead to hell." ( http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/14.html (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/14.html) )

So basically, if one believes in love, respect, truth, honour, mercy, grace... etc.... one be already on the road to paradise, having known Yeshua or not.

Just ciao.

[Ron]

it does state in the bible that he said something along the lines of not having any other gods before him ergo other god/desses exist! I believe that you are referring to the first commandment that G-d gave to moses: "Thou [shall] not have any gods before me". (grammar note: "Shalt" is ind., while "shall" is subjo.)

While I am on your side of the line, it is of often argued that any other god would be contrived and false, whereas this is the only true and living one that there is, or ever was (if we account for Genesis).

Just c :crown: iao.

[Amethyst Rose]

IMHO:
The point about "Accepting Yeshua (Jesus)" is about accepting to love others, and to treat them (as well as oneself) with respect, not about accepting the man Yeshua as the almighty Son of Divinity. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) can be interpreted several ways. It can be intepreted as the Ten Commandments were, supposedly, as a set mundane iron fist, OR metaphorically: Whereas what Yeshua respresents would be the only way into paradise (in this case, "Heaven"). Another interpretation, of which I am not akin: "Jesus is the only way to heaven. All other religions lead to hell." ( http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/14.html (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/14.html) )

So basically, if one believes in love, respect, truth, honour, mercy, grace... etc.... one be already on the road to paradise, having known Yeshua or not.



I would agree and I do like your interpretation. However, to a Bible literalist there is no 'intepreting' the bible....what you see is what you get, so "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" means exactly what it says. The acceptance of Jesus is the acceptance of the Man-God himself, rather than just his ideals.

[aluokaloo]

I chose other, mainly because I am not concerned about rapture, hell or anything else I'm not christian I don't have to worry about it, if it happens in my time, my own Gods will come get me. When people tell me that i will go to hell for not accepting jesus as my savior, i just shrug my shoulders, roll my eyes, and ask them the questioon in reverse. Some are silent, some get angry and try to belittle me. Some say that it would be alright. As for the comment on the christian God being all loving and then all wrathful. Many gods are like that. Period.

[The Oracle]

"if I don't accept Jesus as my savior then I will go to hell"

How typicaly Christian, the Christian way is "Believe what we tell you to believe OR ELSE", belief based on threat of punishment, such an oppressive religion, their hypocritical ways turn my stomach every time I here them.

Such compassion shown by their all forgiving God.

[MercysFallen]

:alol:
Nope!! It's is better to reign in Hell then to serve in Heaven.

Ren

:hailmol:

[SacredWithin]

convert, if it's true, then it's true.

precisely :elf: If it's proven and I am able to see the events happening with my own eyes and my gut feeling says so, then I would. But the mystical ways would still be held onto as that is my nature. But I'd probably end up going back anyway because I seriously think that some of that stuff is metaphorical and not for real.

[The Oracle]

There's only one force that controls my life, and it aint and never will be any creature professing to be a God.

Maybe a Goddess though ofcourse, now thats different ;)

[Anyanka]

Er...Ok i'll be honest here...I'm already a Christian so I do believe that all would return to a new Earth shall the world end etc, etc. I don't force my beliefs on anyone, I mean, I should talk, I don't even go to church regularly so I have no right to. Maybe I shouldn't really be called a Christian...
Anyhoo, I guess considering I believe in Jesus and God, I am already converted.

[Veritas]

Thought forms are wonderful arent they.

[Mother Goose]

I tend to see Jesus as a 'teacher' but have never considered him any more the child of God than the rest of us. He had some great things to teach the world...it's all his followers that screwed things up....at least in my opinion. I do not accept that the bible is anything more than a good book/teaching tool...and as with all books & teaching tools....there are flaws in it. I've never DECLARED myself anything....christian, pagan or otherwise. I accept the beliefs I feel are 'right' and for me that means taking a little here & a little there. I don't believe in hell, so when Christians mention hell, I do my best not to roll my eyes out of respect for their beliefs (although sometimes I find it difficult to give them the respect they often don't give others.)

It is my firm belief that we all 'get to' God, the gods, or goddesses in the manner that most suits us in this lifetime. I'm certain I was a devout Christian in a past life...and that was fine in that past life, but this time around that's not the path I'm meant to take. Every path teaches us something different and in this life I'm unwilling to commit myself to any one thing, at least for the moment. ;)

BUT with all that being said, if I was offered undeniable proof that Christianty is the ONE true religion, I'd probably convert.

[CoolJ]

I don't understand the whole concept of "converting" period... I mean, it's not like we're undergoing metamorphasis... just the same person but having learned new ideas

[Dawa Lhamo]

I don't understand the whole concept of "converting" period... I mean, it's not like we're undergoing metamorphasis... just the same person but having learned new ideasWilliam James, "Varieties of Religious Experience"... I believe you can find it in public domain? Anyway, it has a chapter on Conversion Experience that is frankly very interesting.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Malcolm]

Armageddom? Sounds like ragnarok to me...

[aluokaloo]

as far as armageddon goes, I have finally decided that we humans have probably been given a vision of our own extinction. big whoop! All creatures and timelines go extinct sooner of later. Of course it's gonna be dramatic, and huge! You can't wipe out most of the species on a planet with one can of raid. Unless of coyurse it was 30 times bigger then the earth and was being weilded by a Divine hand. :nyah:

[David19]

I'm not sure if i'd convert. I see all gods as individual beings including the Christian god and satan so maybe the bible apocalypse will happen. I also don't see the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god as evil, maybe just seeing the world/universe in a different way to some of the others, maybe a bit like Jasmine on Angel.

I'm not sure if i believe in all christians just disappearing, i defently think fundamentalists won't be going to heaven, christian fundamentalists are probably the most unchristian like people. I'm not sure if it would be completely the end of the world, maybe just a sort of tip in the balence of power between Yahweh and Satan.

I also defently think that if any christians are just going to disappear up to heaven, then it will be the GLBT people because all of the GLBT people i've met are the coolest, best ones ever so no matter if fundamentalists think they're the only ones going to be saved, i don't think it'll work like that since i see Yahweh and Jesus as loving GLBT.

Anyway i think i kind of got off track to the end but hope my post made sense :).

[stella01904]

I told him I would choose to die. That I love my religion so much that no matter what proof was given to me of the existance of the god of Abraham, I would choose to die rather than give it up.

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that.

What an asshole.
I voted "die" - I'm with Sam Kinison: My idea of "hell" is eternal life with a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
BB, Stella

[amunakht]

He said I was being arrogant to hold onto my beliefs like that. So I'm wondering what others would think.

Would you convert, or choose to die?

Lol what a fool. He was saying that you were being arrogant! Thats a normal Christian way of thinking. He is the one being decieved. I'd like to see his "god" save him!:lol:

I'd much rather accept Satan, because his god is way eviler.

[RoseKitten]

I wouldn't convert... besides, for all we know the rapture is just some trick made up by other gods *giggles* (please, don't be offended, it's a joke...)

[Zibblsnrt]

Well, as an agnostic, I'd be inclined to believe something if overwhelming evidence in its favor made itself available. Jesus coming down from the heavens wreathed in flame or whatever Bruckheimerian mode of entry he'd prefer would qualify as some pretty hard evidence. I mean, I do believe that objective facts exist in this world, that if there's a conflict between those and belief it's because the belief is flawed or the facts insufficiently understood.

[Zelan]

Faith is rarely based on logic as it is.
A person's convictions on something usually get built on after the fact.
I've never known of a conversion because of convincing debate.

[Wolfpoet]

Armageddom? Sounds like ragnarok to me...

Kinda sums it up for me. I was old-school christian before, i won't go back. If God himself asked me to convert I'd ask him to explain why i should follow his peace and goodwill crap when he let the Crusaders rape jews when they took Jerusalem in the crusades.

Odin may not be the nicest God, but he's allot less of a hypocrite.