Italian Witchcraft

[raven grimassi]

I have had several requests to post something specific on Italian Witchcraft. No one can speak for Italian Witchcraft as a whole because there are many regional differences. Therefore I will share what I know and believe to be true from my own training and experience, which I feel is a fair compromise.

In general, the northern systems appear to have Etruscan influence. The central appear to have Roman influence. The southern systems appear to have Spanish influence. The Sciliian systems appear to have Greek influences.

To begin the discussion, I will start with the word trail.

The Italian word that translates into the English word Witch is Strega (female) or Stregone (male). The popular thinking is that the word is derived from strix or strigae. Both of these have a connection to the owl figure. In ancient Roman lore, the strix is a supernatural being (typically female) who can take on human form and the form of an owl. However, as a pracitioner of Italian Witchcraft, I look at the word strigare which means to extract or untangle. This seems in keeping with the earliest word used in Western Literature to denote a Witch, and that word was the Greek word pharmakis. This word indicates a knowledge of plants, specifically their chemical properties (which have to be extracted).

The Italian word for Witchcraft is Stregheria or Stregoneria. The former refers to Witchcraft as a religion and the latter is its sorcery aspect. In ancient Roman writings we find the theme of Witches worshipping a triformis goddess composed of Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina (a Roman form of Persephone).

Lucan writes of a dialogue wherein a Witch proclaims: "Persephone, who is the third and lowest aspect of our goddess Hecate" (BC. 6:700-01). Ovid, in his work Metamorphoses, quotes the Witch Medea who says: "I pray only that the three-formed Goddess will help me and come to give her blessings to our immense enterprise". Ovid also presents the hero Jason making an oath to Medea in which he says: " I will be true by the sacred rites of the three-fold goddess."

In Horace's writings related to Witchcraft we find these words:

(Epode 5) “... Night and Diana, who command silence when secret mysteries are performed, now aid me; now turn your vengeance and influence against my enemies’ house ...”

(Epode 17) “Now already I yield to your mighty art, and suppliant beseech you by the realms of Proserpina, and by the powers of Diana..."

Italian Witchcraft has a long historical and literary tradition stretching from ancient Roman times, up into the Renaissance era, through the 19th century, and into modern times.

Francesco Guazzo, an Italian Ambrosian monk who grew up in the region of Tuscany, gives us a snapshot of 17th century beliefs in his book Compendium Maleficarum, which was written at the request of the Archbishop of Milan (Frederico Borromeo) and published in 1608.

Guazzo describes in great detail the believed structure of the Italian Witch sect (as well as many other European systems). In chapters twelve and eighteen, Guazzo indicates that witches gather in circles drawn upon the ground with beech twigs, and work with spirits of earth, air, fire, and water (among others).

Guazzo notes in chapter ten that witches adhere to certain laws within their society. In chapter six, Guazzo states: "The infection of witchcraft is often spread through a sort of contagion to children by their fallen parents...and it is one among many sure and certain proofs against those who are charged and accused of witchcraft, if it be found that their parents before them were guilty of this crime. There are daily examples of this inherited taint in children..."

Guazzo states that Witches "read from a black book during their religious rites" and he notes a religious demeanor among witches in chapter eleven, where he writes: "For witches observe various silences, measuring, vigils, mutterings, figures and fires, as if they were some expiatory religious rite".

Guazzo's depiction of witchcraft seems to indicate a rather structured and organized cult, and is consistent with accounts from Italian witch trial transcripts dating from 1310-1647.

Folklorist Lady de Vere also describes a structured witch cult in an article she wrote in 1894: "...the community of Italian witches is regulated by laws, traditions, and customs of the most secret kind, possessing special recipes for sorcery" (La Rivista of Rome, June 1894). Folklorist J.B. Andrews later added: "The Neapolitans have an occult religion and government in witchcraft, and the camorra; some apply to them to obtain what official organizations cannot or will not do. As occasionally happens in similar cases, the Camorra fears and yields to the witches, the temporal to the spiritual" (Folk-Lore; Transactions of the Folk-Lore Society, March 1897).

Andrews goes on to say that the Witches of Naples are divided into "special departments of the art." He lists two as adepts in the art of earth and sea magick. Later in the article it is implied that a third specialty may exist related to the stars. Andrews also tells us that Neapolitan Witches perform knot magick, create medicinal herbal potions, construct protective amulets, and engage in the arts of healing.

Andrews concludes his article with information he collected while interviewing Italian Witches. When asked what books these Witches gathered their information from, they replied their knowledge was entirely traditional, and is "given by the mother to the daughter." The Witches also tell Andrews that blood is exchanged from a vein in the arm, and the new member is given a mark under the left thigh. Although the moon is not specifically mentioned, the Witches do report to Andrews that such ceremonies are performed at midnight.

Hmm..because this is running long, I will make it part one of a longer thread to follow later. And, I suppose that dragging the writings of Charles Leland into this is unavoidable. ;)

Best regards - Raven

[halfwaynowhere]

thanks so much for this info... I have really been interested in italian witchcraft, but i haven't found many good online resources, so i was really confused. I have been planning on getting your book, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll be looking forward to reading the next part of this, and to reading your book as soon as i can...

[Lupercus]

Thank you, Raven. I will be looking forward to the next thread.

[raven grimassi]

Here I will present the influence of Catholicism on Italian Witchcraft. As an author I receive reader mail, and often a reader will comment that his or her grandmother, mother, or aunt performed this or that spell or ritual. This often leads the reader to feel that he or she had Witchcraft in the family line. This may or may not be the case. Please let me explain.

Folklorist Charles Leland, in his book Etruscan Roman Remains (1892) wrote:

“It is the most natural thing in the world that there should be certain blendings, compromises, and points of affinity between the Stregheria — witchcraft, or “old religion,” founded on the Etruscan or Roman mythology and rites — and the Roman Catholic: both were based on magic, both used fetishes, amulets, incantations, and had recourse to spirits. In some cases these Christian spirits or saints corresponded with, and were actually derived from, the same source as the heathen. The sorcerers among the Tuscan peasantry were not slow to perceive this.”

What we have in Old Italy is the existence of folk magic and folk beliefs that remained among the common people, who continued to use various herbs and charms despite being Catholic. Because the majority of these folk practices are rooted in pre-Christian times it is only natural that some are also found among Witches (who are part of the culture as well). Therefore, the use of herbs or charms (in and of itself) is not "proof" that the practice is Witchcraft. It may instead simply be old folk magic used by the common people (who may self-identify as Catholic, and may well even abhor Witchcraft).

In Italy today, there are many Catholic traditions that have preserved the old Pagan ways. The two most obvious examples are the reverence for Mary (as the “Mother of God”) and the belief in the intercession of saints (a remnant of pagan worship related to specific spirits who have power over various aspects of life). The Fanarric Witches of northern Italy maintain the belief that the Goddess was the first of all that came to be, and that she created the God. In this sense she can be thought of as the Mother of God. They also believe in a host of various spirits who can be persuaded to assist them in life through the use of offerings, prayers, and spells.

Many modern Italian Witches simply consider Catholics to be Pagans who have accepted the divinity of Jesus. There are some interesting concepts in both the Old and New Testaments that resemble Italic beliefs and may well be the foundation of such an idea. According to the New Testament, the Magi were the first to seek out Jesus after “seeing” his star. Legend claims that the Magi were astrologers and sorcerers, and associates them with the lands of Chaldea, Egypt, and Persia. These are all places that have an occult history dating far back into antiquity. The tale of the Magi recorded in the Book of Matthew seems to indicate that these mystic Pagans were among the first to pay homage to Jesus.

In the Book of Proverbs (chapter 8, verse 2), we find a personage called “Wisdom” conceived of in the form of a female divinity who “stands at the crossroads” (a phrase used in ancient times concerning the witches’ goddess.) Wisdom speaks of being present both prior to and during the process of Creation. In verse 30 (The Jerusalem Bible) she claims to have been God’s assistant during the process of Creation:

“I was by his side, a master Craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence, at play everywhere in his world, delighting to be with the sons of men.”

In the book of Wisdom (found only in the Catholic version), “Wisdom” is praised with these words (chapter 7: 22–27):

“For within her is a spirit intelligent, holy ... penetrating all intelligent, pure and most subtle spirits; for Wisdom is quicker to move than any motion; she is so pure, she pervades and permeates all things ... She is a reflection of the eternal light, untarnished mirror of God’s active power ... although alone, she can do all; herself unchanging, she makes all things new ...”

Connected to this concept of the feminine aspect of Divinity is the word “Ruach.” In Hebrew, this word is of feminine gender and would properly be defined in the sense of feminine divinity. When we read in the account of Creation (Book of Genesis) that the “spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,” the Hebrew word used here for spirit was ruach. In the New Testament this has been translated into “Holy Spirit,” as in the Trinity concept of “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Hebrew mystics of the Kabbalah considered ruach to be associated with the element of air, and thus with spirit as well. Among early Kabbalists, the sound of a word denoted its elemental association; soft sounds were associated with air, hard sounds with earth, hissing sounds with fire, and muted sounds with water.

It is not necessary, however, to look to Catholicism in order to find remnants of earlier Pagan worship. Aspects of Italian Witchcraft still survive today in both Italy and America, even among those who would not readily identify themselves as being members of La Vecchia Religione (The Old Religion). They employ various prayers to a host of saints, lighting candles and placing assorted objects as required by tradition. Saints such as St. Anthony, St. Jude, St. Anna, and St. Simon have replaced the old Pagan gods, to whom similar prayers and offerings were once made.

Charles Leland, in his book Etruscan Magic & Occult Remedies, records the old connection between Witches and Catholicism, of which he writes:

“As for families in which stregheria, or a knowledge of charms, old traditions and songs is preserved, they do not among themselves pretend to be even Christian. That is to say, they maintain outward observances, and bring the children up as Catholics, and “keep in” with the priest, but as the children grow older, if any aptitude is observed in them for sorcery, some old grandmother or aunt takes them in hand, and initiates them into the ancient faith.”

Much of their magic is mixed with Catholic rites and saints, the origins of which date back to ancient times. Certain saints, such as Anthony, Simon, and Elisha, are viewed as demi-gods, and their magical rites of evocation are performed in cellars. However, it should be noted that not all Italian Witches incorporate Catholic elements into their practices/systems. There are many who practice the traditional ways that existed before the influence of Catholicism.

I will prepare another thread post on codes of conduct, and in the meantime I hope there will be some questions or comments to address.

Best regards - Raven

[Phaedra B]

Lucan writes of a dialogue wherein a Witch proclaims: "Persephone, who is the third and lowest aspect of our goddess Hecate" (BC. 6:700-01). Ovid, in his work Metamorphoses, quotes the Witch Medea who says: "I pray only that the three-formed Goddess will help me and come to give her blessings to our immense enterprise". Ovid also presents the hero Jason making an oath to Medea in which he says: " I will be true by the sacred rites of the three-fold goddess."
I presume the original texts were in Latin. What Latin word is being translated as "witch"?


In Horace's writings related to Witchcraft we find these words:

(Epode 5) “... Night and Diana, who command silence when secret mysteries are performed, now aid me; now turn your vengeance and influence against my enemies’ house ...”

(Epode 17) “Now already I yield to your mighty art, and suppliant beseech you by the realms of Proserpina, and by the powers of Diana..." What is the context? How do we know this is about "witchcraft" as we understand it?

[raven grimassi]

I presume the original texts were in Latin. What Latin word is being translated as "witch"?

There are several words used in Lucan's writings, all of which are translated by modern scholars into the English word Witch (probably more due to the context of Lucan's story). One of the best books to use in order to sort out the use of ancient words for Witch is:

Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome (edited by Bengt Ankarloo and Stuart Clark. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999). Here you can follow the trail of such words as maga, carmena, saga, striga, and venefica, and how they translate into Witch according to the context in which they appear. Lucan uses maga and carmena (or derivatives thereof) in his works (among other words translated into Witch due to context).


What is the context? How do we know this is about "witchcraft" as we understand it?

From the various forums I have been in, including MW, I do not believe that "we" have a common or agreed upon understanding of what Witchcraft is or was. ;) Therefore, I cannot really answer your question.

But, to try and reply to your question, the Epodes of Horace are commonly known to be, in part, about the Witch named Canidia. The context of the quote I used appears in Horaces' work where a character in the story has offended Canidia and pleads for mercy from her magical retribution.

There are many interesting concepts in Horace's Epodes, including the mention that Witches can drawn the moon down from the heavens.

But I think it should be pointed out that ancient writers such as Horace, Ovid, and Lucan are essentially telling stories. These are not historical accounts. But I use them simply to show that such concepts existed in ancient times, and are not modern concoctions (as some modern scholars profess).

Best regards - Raven

[ariansdreams]

Mr. Grimassi, I have a question for you, but I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post it. Hopefully it is ok. My great grandmother was full-blooded Italian (born in Italy but raised in Pittsburgh, PA) and she did something that she called "taking off the malook." What she did exactly is as follows and is excerpted from and email that my mom sent me:

"Grandma Caruso would take a bowl of water and at some point she would
add some olive oil and say some prayers across it and swipe her hand over it a
few times and then look into it...then I think she'd use the oily water to put across on the forehead to remove the evil eye and she would only do this if you had malook."

I was wondering, is this some kind of folk magic from Italy? My great grandmother identified herself as Catholic, so if she was a witch, she didn't tell anyone. I doubt she was though, as she incorporated the sign of the cross when she took off the malook. I am not sure if that is how it is spelled, it is just how it sounds. Grandma Caruso also refused to teach anyone else how to do it. Is there a reason you could think of that she would do that? I hope you don't mind my question.

Thank you.

Pax,
Arian

[raven grimassi]

I have a question for you, but I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post it. Hopefully it is ok. My great grandmother was full-blooded Italian (born in Italy but raised in Pittsburgh, PA) and she did something that she called "taking off the malook."

Ah yes, this is classic stuff here. What she was taking about is the Malocchio, the evil eye. Italian-Americans often shorten this to Maloch, or some short version in slang. This is an old belief that a person can curse another by piercing into the soul with a look of the eyes, a darting glance.


"Grandma Caruso would take a bowl of water and at some point she would add some olive oil and say some prayers across it and swipe her hand over it a few times and then look into it...then I think she'd use the oily water to put across on the forehead to remove the evil eye and she would only do this if you had malook."

Yes, this is very common folk magic in Italy.


My great grandmother identified herself as Catholic, so if she was a witch, she didn't tell anyone. I doubt she was though, as she incorporated the sign of the cross when she took off the malook. I am not sure if that is how it is spelled, it is just how it sounds. Grandma Caruso also refused to teach anyone else how to do it. Is there a reason you could think of that she would do that?

Yes, there is a very good reason. It was/is an old folk magic belief that such things could only be passed on at a certain time to another person. To do otherwise was to lose the power.

Thanks for bringing this up. This is really old lore, and a particular field of study that I enjoy.

Best regards - Raven

[ariansdreams]

Mr. Grimassi,
Thank you for your quick reply. I have been wondering about this for a while. I never really knew my great-grandmother, I was only 10 years old when she passed away. All of the stories of the Maloch (Yay I know how to spell it now!) were told to me by my mother and Nana (Her daughter). I imagine that she didn't tell anyone, like my Nana, because Nana is very Catholic and might not have understood. I'd like to think that she would have taught it to me if she had lived, but who knows. Thank you so much for giving some light to this mystery in my family! Are there any resources you could reccomend so that I could find out more about it?

Thank you again.

Pax,
Arian

[raven grimassi]

Are there any resources you could reccomend so that I could find out more about it?

Yes, but I am not sure if they are still in print or not, but here is a list from my research notes:

1. Italian-American Folklore (by Frances Malpezzi and William Clements. August House Publishers, 1992).

2. The Evil Eye (edited by Alan Dundes. University of Wisconsin Press,1992)

3. The Malevolent Eye (by Pierre Bettez Gravel. Peter Lang Publishing, 1995)

4. The Evil Eye (by Frederick Elworthy)


Best regards - Raven

[Neptune496]

Grimassi wrote:

""But I think it should be pointed out that ancient writers such as Horace, Ovid, and Lucan are essentially telling stories. These are not historical accounts. But I use them simply to show that such concepts existed in ancient times, and are not modern concoctions (as some modern scholars profess).""

What do you mean they aren't historical accounts? The stories themselves are "historical" legends of the gods and of ancient times written by historians, poets, satirists; all types of people, in memory of earlier oral traditions. Lucan, Ovid, and Horace were merely doing what they thought best, re-writing and preserving the stories they learned about growing up as a youth. The lore of a country was passed down just the same as any other type of knowledge in those times so this is why I also term Lore as historical. A devout roman would have seen them as the legends of his culture and therefore to be revered as the lore and folklore of his beloved country. whether you believe in them or not, they are still not to be taken as mere senseless "stories."


The accounts of witches in Greco-Roman legend seem to be more of a supernatural, Deity- nature, rather than some ordinary person in the mortal realm performing spells and curses, however, ancient Italy was thriving with performance of magical rituals in everyday life around the countryside, it wasn't anything secretive, for parts of the larger public festivals would often include the use of magical rites. Hecate and Nox (Night) are often seen as goddesses of dark magical rites, or Sorcery in general, perhaps their devoted cultus performed more complex rituals of magic, like the witches in legend. This would not be public though, it would be performed in the countrysides, in the homes, in more private rites. Some Roman Pagans overlook Hecate and other goddesses with their strong connections to a definitive practice of Sorcery, but there's something that was going on in the background of the Roman Society I think, that did concern cults of Sorcery linked with certain goddesses, well there was in all cultures I imagine.....

Have you found any sources where a writer speaks about such hidden practices more vividly? Like before the advent of Christianity.

[raven grimassi]

What do you mean they aren't historical accounts? The stories themselves are "historical" legends of the gods and of ancient times written by historians, poets, satirists; all types of people, in memory of earlier oral traditions. Lucan, Ovid, and Horace were merely doing what they thought best, re-writing and preserving the stories they learned about growing up as a youth.

I am referring specifically to the quotes from Horace and Lucan, which I used in my thread post. Horace writes of the Witch Canidia having a dialogue with one of the characters in the story. I simply pointed out that the story is a fictional tale, not a news report. Likewise, what I quoted from Lucan is dialogue from a Witch in a story, and not the recorded dictation of an actual discussion. That does not mean that the concepts are fiction, it simply means the tale in which they reside are fictional accounts.



The stories themselves are "historical" legends of the gods and of ancient times written by historians, poets, satirists; all types of people, in memory of earlier oral traditions. Lucan, Ovid, and Horace were merely doing what they thought best, re-writing and preserving the stories they learned about growing up as a youth. The lore of a country was passed down just the same as any other type of knowledge in those times so this is why I also term Lore as historical.

I have no argument with that, and I do see value (yes, even historical value) in the Bardic tales which were later written down and now appear as myth and legend.



A devout roman would have seen them as the legends of his culture and therefore to be revered as the lore and folklore of his beloved country. whether you believe in them or not, they are still not to be taken as mere senseless "stories."

Again, no argument here. I certainly would never say these are senseless stories. As a teacher of the Mystery Tradition I personally see myth, legend, and lore as the captured metaphors of ancestral knowledge and wisdom.



Some Roman Pagans overlook Hecate and other goddesses with their strong connections to a definitive practice of Sorcery, but there's something that was going on in the background of the Roman Society I think, that did concern cults of Sorcery linked with certain goddesses

Hecate was a key figure in Roman Witchcraft (as well as Greek) and is featured in rites associated with the crossroads. In Rome there were Mystery sects that maintained secrecy, such as the cult of Dionysos in Pompeii. Witches were believed to meet at the crossroads, as did many rejected elements of society.

Historian Albert Grenier (The Roman Spirit in Religion, Thought, and Art) wrote of the College of the Crossroads, a quasi-order of social misfits and outcasts in ancient times. Grenier states that gods of the streets, fields, roads, and crossroads take such people under their protection. Of these deities Grenier writes:

"About their altars on the cross-roads they collect all the vagabonds, all those who have no family, no hearth, no worship of their own. Their humble devotees combine to celebrate their feasts as best they can, forming Colleges of the Crossroads, collegia compitalicia."



Have you found any sources where a writer speaks about such hidden practices more vividly? Like before the advent of Christianity.

Yes, there are many sources, and it depends upon what you are looking for by way of secrecy. We know that the cult of Bona Dea was a secret initiatory system that was of exclusively female membership. And, again, so too the cult of Dionysos in Pompeii. The goddess Ceres (goddess of the Mysteries) also enjoyed an initiatory system that met in secrecy.

Here are some books that may be of help and interest:

Mystery Religions in the Ancient World, by Joscelyn Godwin (Harper & Row, 1981)

Eleusis, by Carl Kerenyi (Princeton University Press, 1962)

The Roman Goddess Ceres, by Barbette Stanley Spaeth (University of Texas Press, 1996)

Hekate Soteira, by Sarah Iles Johnston (Scholars Press, 1990)

Restless Dea: Encounters between the Living and the Dead in ancient Greece, by Sarah Iles Johnston (University of California Press, 1999)

The Origins of Mithraic Mysteries, by David Ulansey (Oxford University Press, 1989)

The Mystery Religions, by S. Angus (Dover Publications, 1975)

Best regards - Raven

[Nemesis Descending]

Hey, this is getting really interesting, keep it coming! _twohorns_

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[raven grimassi]

CODES OF CONDUCT

The following presents the ethical views or codes of honor found in many systems of Italian Witchcraft. Not all systems adhere to this, but I feel that this post will present what is most common.

The older systems of the Italian Craft did not practice the philosophy reflected in the modern Wiccan Rede. Instead they adhered to what might be called grey Witchcraft, which can be seen as a view that nothing is good or bad per se, but is instead situational. On a mundane level this is akin to the idea that a wolf is not evil or ill-natured because it kills and eats a deer. The deer is not the good guy and the wolf the bad guy. What happens is what is necessary due to situation.

In modern society we have laws against killing, and we are told that killing is wrong. This is all enforced by the Government and its courts. And yet, the Government executes people, sends people into combat to kill other people, and allows killing in self-defense. This is a mixed message, but one of necessity (as viewed by supporters of such things). So, is killing itself wrong, or is it a situational ethic?

In the old systems of Italian Witchcraft there was no judgment on any act per se, but instead upon what the situation called for in any given case.

One thing we find at the core of the old Italian Craft is the idea of non-interference with other Witches. One of the oldest laws was to not undo what another Witch put into place.

In modern times many Italian Craft systems have adapted something closer to the Wicca Rede, but allowing for defensive magic (and in some cases preventive strikes as well). The Italian Witch does not play the role of victim but is instead a full participant in the events of his or her life. There is no "turn the other cheek" philosophy is most systems of Italian Witchcraft.

The following is fairly representative of the Italian Witch's philosophy in general (and is based upon an excerpt from my book Spirit of the Witch):

* I do not force my will upon others because it is the actions of others that invite the response of my will.

* I do not desire power over others, because I know I possess personal power and am secure in that realization.

* I return the intent of what is given or sent to me, whether good or bad, because I seek freedom from the obligation of attachment.

* I do not harm the innocent, because it is my enemies who evoke my warranted response.

* I do not steal, because what belongs to me is what I have earned.

* I do not take a life other than to preserve life because I am part of Nature.

* I do not secretly thrust my pitchfork into another's harvest because mine is work enough. There is no honor in a gain that is undeserved.

* I do not modify my beliefs and convictions for the convenience of others or myself because I rely upon being who I am.

* I do not lie, because I rely upon truth (in myself and in others). Where there is no truth, each word is wasted energy, and I never waste energy.

* I do not betray those I love, because I would not cut off my hand, or foot, or nose, or any part of me that I cherish.

* I am not untrustworthy, because my word, once given, is my oath to which I am bound, and I never betray myself.

* I do not live in fear nor self-impose my limitations, because I do not accept the domination of others over my life.

* I do not play the role of victim, because I am too busy participating in my life and shaping my own future.

* I do not worship in the ways others would have me do, because Nature is my first and truest love.

* I venerate the old gods because they do not demand it, but my own heart does.


Best regards - Raven

[TYRRHENUS]

I know this is the Paths forum, and that it's dedicated to those of a particular path, but the question came up regarding some classical works to which I think I could add something useful.
Horace's Epodes 5 & 17, Ovid's Metamorphoses and Lucan's Bellum Civile (aka Pharsalia) are not historical accounts.
In school most of us were given sweeping declarations like 'the Romans looked up to the Greeks,' or 'all Roman mythology comes from the Greeks.' This just isn't true. Though Romans generally recognized the contributions of Greek culture, they also considered the Greeks incredibly superstitious. The Elder Cato wrote often of how the Greeks would believe anything. Pliny the Elder said 'it is amazing the extent to which Greek gullibility will go.' The point I'm laboring to make here is that whenever a Roman author wanted to write a story, and if that story included the subject of witchcraft (usually based upon Greek works), in order for it to be believable to logical Romans, the story had to be set in Greece. Only in Greece was it believed by Romans that such silliness could take place. In fact all three Roman works mentioned earlier are set in Greece: Ovid's Metamorphoses is merely 250+ Greek myths written in Latin, Horace's Epodes 5 & 17 take place in Thessaly while Erictho, the witch in Lucan's Pharsalia 6 (again in Thessaly,) is a mixture of Horace's Canidia, the Greek Hecate as she appeared in Vergil's Aeneid as well as Homer's Circe. Apuleius' Metamorphoses (or Golden Ass) is another example.
The question of how much cultural relevance to Italy these Greek myths, or Greek myths written in Latin had I'm still contemplating.
Just something to think about.

[Phaedra B]

The question of how much cultural relevance to Italy these Greek myths, or Greek myths written in Latin had I'm still contemplating.
Just something to think about.
I'm wondering along the same line. They're very interesting, but what is the relevance to modern Italian practices? Are you suggesting something akin to an unbroken line? That seems extreme.

[raven grimassi]

Horace's Epodes 5 & 17, Ovid's Metamorphoses and Lucan's Bellum Civile (aka Pharsalia) are not historical accounts.

Yes, I also pointed that out earlier in a reply on this thread. As I stated then, I included them simply to demonstrate the existence of certain themes in the writings of antiquity.



The question of how much cultural relevance to Italy these Greek myths, or Greek myths written in Latin had I'm still contemplating. Just something to think about.

Anything from another culture that influences literature (fictional or non-fictional), philosophy, and so forth seems significant. Here in California the influence of earlier Spanish colonization has left its mark in the names of our streets, architecture, art, lore, and language. Greek colonization of Italy and Sicily seems to have had similar significant impact on ancient Rome.


what is the relevance to modern Italian practices? Are you suggesting something akin to an unbroken line? That seems extreme.

I am talking about roots. What we see in the ancient Roman writings is a depiction of Witches involved with the goddesses Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina. It is a theme that continues for over 2500 years into modern times. That seems to me to be significant. Its relevance to modern Italian is at least one of spiritual lineage. Diana features prominently in the majority of modern Italian Craft systems.

The goddess Diana appears in writings associated with Witchcraft in Roman times, is mentioned by wandering saints in southern Europe during the 7th century ce, appears in Church writings of the Middle Ages, in Witchcraft trial transcripts from dating 1310-1784, in folklore journals of the 19th century, and in the writings of the early to mid 20th century. That appears to be an unbroken chain of its own. ;)

Best regards - Raven

[Scarlet Witch]

The point I'm laboring to make here is that whenever a Roman author wanted to write a story, and if that story included the subject of witchcraft (usually based upon Greek works), in order for it to be believable to logical Romans, the story had to be set in Greece. Only in Greece was it believed by Romans that such silliness could take place. In fact all three Roman works mentioned earlier are set in Greece: Ovid's Metamorphoses is merely 250+ Greek myths written in Latin, Horace's Epodes

Just to note, there are writings wherein Horace places the witch Canidia in Rome, with direct references to the Esquiline in Rome. One example is in Satire 1.8 where Canidia is depicted at the Esquiline directing witches gathered by a statue of the god Priapus beneath the light of the moon. For those unfamiliar, the Esquiline was home to a park in Rome established on a former cemetery for the poor.

Blessed be,
Scarlet Witch

[TYRRHENUS]

Just to note, there are writings wherein Horace places the witch Canidia in Rome...One example is in Satire 1.8...Excellent find, Scarlet Witch!

[raven grimassi]

19th Century View

During the mid to late 1800s there were several folklorists investigating Witchcraft in Italy. Some did their field studies in northern Italy in the Tuscan region, some in central in and around Rome, and some in southern Italy, in and around Naples. What is interesting here is the fact that although these were independent studies in different regions of Italy, all of the accounts are very similar. The most well-known of these folklorists was Charles Leland but there were others such J.B. Andrews, Roma Lister, and Lady de Vere.

From their interviews with people in different regions of Italy who claimed to be Witches, the folklorists discovered an interesting pattern. What was consistent within the various regions was a belief, among those professing to be Witches, that their ways were passed down through family lines.

Also consistent were elements of religion & magic, along with lore not found in the common folklore of the region. There were, however, elements also found in common folk magic (although in most cases these were more developed and possessed additional symbols, spirit names, and so forth).

Charles Leland presented a system that was more complex than those depicted by other folklorists of his era in Italy. Most people believe that a woman named Maddalena supplied Leland with all the material that he eventually published in his books. However, Leland actually references five individuals (four of them "hereditary" witches) who gathered information for his works.

Leland is best known for his Aradia book, which was actually the second to last of the books he produced on Italian Witchcraft. His first book on the subject was Etruscan Roman Remains. The Aradia material is his most controversial work, and is in sharp contrast to his presentation of Witches in his earlier work (where they are the "beautiful Witches of Benevento").

Regarding Aradia, there are essentially three categories where Italian Witches may be placed. Those who view Aradia as a goddess, those who see her as an avatar figure, and those who have no specific view (or perhaps even a connection). It should be noted that some practitioners of Italian Witchcraft reject the Aradia material and related concepts in general.

For those who may be interested, I will create a thread on the author's section in a couple of days, and try to get a discussion going on Aradia and Leland. I am just now putting the finishing touches on a compilation of Leland's works on Italian Witchcraft. The book includes his published works (Etruscan Roman Remains, Aradia, Legends of Florence, and the Unpublished Legends of Virgil) along with excerpts from Leland's personal journal, and copies of letters written by him that contain additional insights into his investigation of Italian Witchcraft. I add commentaries and Italian folklore & folk magic as a background to better understand the Leland material. This book is a culmination of over 30 years of research on Leland's writings and the folklore/folk magic of old Italy.

Best regards - Raven

[doni_girl69]

Mr Grimassi,

I have read your books and love them. My first connection to wicca was the name Aradia. I was reading a book by Sybil Leek when the name popped up. I don't remember it saying anything about who she was, but I kind've felt this, feeling And a few years lator I found her again. Now, she is the only reason I am a witch. I was wanting to write new stories on Aradia and have been doing so. My question is this: Aradia seems to be a relativly new Goddess, and I get the sense that she has evolved with the times. I've read that she was known as Herodias. So it is possible that the Goddess is evolving?

Thanks,
Kim :blowcandl

[raven grimassi]

My question is this: Aradia seems to be a relativly new Goddess, and I get the sense that she has evolved with the times. I've read that she was known as Herodias. So it is possible that the Goddess is evolving?

As with all things in the modern Craft, we do find Aradia evolving (both as a goddess, folk hero, and a legend).

It is true that the name Herodias became attached to Diana and Aradia, and I see this as another intentional Christian distortion of the original Aradia figure. Early Church writings conflate Herodias (a treacherous biblical character) with the goddess Diana. This attempt to equate the goddess Diana with the infamous Herodias appears to be an endeavor designed to draw people away from Pagan religion.

The earliest documented reference to equate the goddess Diana with Herodias appears in the ninth century of the Christian era. Regino (the Abbot of Prum) cites a Church Canon attributed to the Council of Ancyra in 314. Regino instructs all bishops to warn their flocks against the “false beliefs” of women who think they follow the pagan goddess Diana or Herodias during their night revels. The cited “Canon Episcopi” itself reads:

“It should also be added that certain criminal women, disciples of Satan, seduced by the illusions and devices of the Devil, believe and confess that they ride through the air on certain beasts at night in company with Diana the pagan goddess (or Herodias), and a host of other women, obeying the goddess’ order as if she was their absolute mistress.” (Baroja, Julio Caro. The World of Witches. Chicago: University Press of Chicago, 1991 - page 60).

As we look at this document it appears that the name “Herodias” has been inserted as an intentional equating of the two figures.

Scholar Carlo Ginzburg states that Herodias appears in European Witchcraft due to a misunderstanding or misreading of earlier references (Ecstasies; Deciphering the Witches’ Sabbath, Random House, 1991). Ginzburg points out (page 90) that Burchard, Bishop of Worms, added Herodias to the name of Diana (when referring to an earlier canon about Diana and her night followers). He also mentions that the Council of Truer in 1310 “set Herodiana along side Diana”. Ginzburg points out that in 1390 Friar Beltramino “inserted” a reference to Herodias that did not appear in the trial records concerning a woman named “Sibillia”.

According to Ginzbug we find that Vincent of Beauvais added statements to the original Canon Episcopi, and that Dominican preacher Johannes Herolt added the name Unholde. Later editions of his Serones added Fraw Berthe and Fraw Helt, displacing Unholde. This appears to be evidence of deliberate alterations, which further confuses the allegations that attempt to equate Diana with other figures.

In Ecstasies, Ginzburg points out that the old hypothesis equating Diana and Herodias stems from a misunderstanding/misreading of the original reference to “Hera Diana” which is rendered Herodiana, and then “normalized” to read Herodias (page 104). What should have been rendered Heradiana, appears as Herodiana, which is curiously close to the word Herodian. The latter indicates an association with King Herod of the Bible, and the tale of Herodias who was instrumental in the beheading of John the Baptist. Is this something contrived, coincidental?

It is interesting to note that the ancient custom among the Romans was to create composite names for various deities. Some examples include Artemis-Hekate (AESCH. Hiket. 667-7) and Juno-Lucina (Catullus’ Hymn to Diana). In the Hymn to Diana, Catallus writes: “Diana whose name is Juno-Lucina, who hears the prayers of birthing women”. As we know, Juno is the Roman name for the goddess Hera. Here we can easily see a connection between Diana and Hera, a possible foundation for the name Hera-Diana. This root may help explain the confusion between Hera-Diana and Herodias (noting Ginzburg’s reference to Herodiana rendered as Herodias).

Ginzburg mentions the existence of a Medieval sect of peasants who worship Hera in the Palatinato (consisting of about 400 members). They believed that Hera flies through the night during the time of Epifania, bringing abundance to her followers (Storia Notturna. Una decifrazione del sabba, Torino 1989. page 81). Ginzburg notes that Hera is tied to Diana, which creates a connection to Herodiana as a nocturnal goddess. He further notes that the name Herodiana eventually becomes transformed into Erodiade. This is supported by a 12th century reference attributed to Ugo da San Vittore, (an Italian abbot) who writes of women who believe they go out at night riding on the backs of animals with "Erodiade," whom he conflates with Diana and Minerva (Bonomo, Giuseppe. Caccia alle Streghe. Palermo: Palumbo, 1959). Some commentators believe that the name Aradia may have evolved from the name Erodiade.

However, the name Aradia can be broken down into two elements of two Latin based words: arabile and dea (Ara-dea/Ara-dia). Arabile refers to fertile earth, land that is tillable, and the word dea indicates a goddess. Here the name Aradia can be rendered to mean the goddess of fertile earth. In this we see her as the daughter of Diana (the mother in the heavens and the daughter below).

The name Aradia can also be related to the Latin word ara, which indicates an altar (typically set at the hearth). Here she would be a goddess associated with the altar of home and family (the daughter). The etymology of Diana's name is formed from the Latin dius and dium, which translate as "the luminous sky" (and so the name Diana means "the luminous One" of the sky). When applied to the Aradia theme, we can see the light of Diana's moon reflected in her daughter as the hearth fire.

Best regards - Raven

[CleftOfLight]

I had someone tell me that I had spirit guides and the first name she said was Aradia.I was just wondering if there is a type of Stregha that focuses on her as a main part of there beliefes.

And also I read that Aidne Kelly wrote a book on Aradia as well but I cant find it anywhere.

[raven grimassi]

I was just wondering if there is a type of Stregha that focuses on her as a main part of there beliefes.


Yes, the tradition I practice venerates Aradia as a type of avatar figure. She features prominently in the Janarric, Fanarric and Tanarric systems that are operating today. I am sure there are others as well.


I read that Aidne Kelly wrote a book on Aradia as well but I cant find it anywhere.

Yes, about 10 years after I self published the Book of the Holy Strega, Kelly came out with a book on Aradia, which he published on disks. To my knoweldge there was never a physical book published.

His work received mostly negative reviews. I have a copy on disk. His work is even more controversial than my own, and he portrays Aradia as a street woman who frequently uses the "F word" and is a bit seedy and so forth. I do not believe that the book is available anywhere, but I could be wrong.

[Rasenna]

Mr. Grimassi:
So are you saying that Aradia is a "type" of Tages? That she taught the haruspicy and Disciplina Etruscana to the outlaw masses?
Rasenna-
Curious wanderer

[raven grimassi]

Mr. Grimassi:
So are you saying that Aradia is a "type" of Tages? That she taught the haruspicy and Disciplina Etruscana to the outlaw masses?
Rasenna-
Curious wanderer

I am not sure where you came up with this idea, but no, I am not trying to depict Aradia as teaching "the haruspicy and Disciplina Etruscan" to anyone, or as teaching Etruscan religion to the peasant class in general, or the outlaw class in particular. I doubt she knew this material herself.

I believe that what Aradia taught was a blend of some archaic elements of Etruscan religion that had influenced the rustic Witches of Tuscany. Her form of Tuscan Witchcraft was no doubt modified by her, then by her followers, and to some extent by the culture & times that Witches found themselves in over the following centuries. That being said, I am sure that they all tried to preserve the essence of the Old Religion as best they could.

[Rasenna]

I am not sure where you came up with this idea, but no, I am not trying to depict Aradia as teaching "the haruspicy and Disciplina Etruscan" to anyone, or as teaching Etruscan religion to the peasant class in general, or the outlaw class in particular. I doubt she knew this material herself.
***Well, I partly came up with the idea through UPG. Being as the Etruscan religion is more influenced by Asia Minor (now the Middle East) and has more of a flavor of other revealed religions as opposed to the more "organic" neo-pagan traditions, I have learned to view Aradia as a Christian Gnostic would view Jesus. That is, rather than being an historical person, she is the way we have to take, the path we have to follow. We have to "become" an Aradia in much the same way that a Christian Gnostic desire to "become a Christ." So what I mean by a "type" of Tages is that I also do not see Tages as an historical being, but instead the innate understanding of the Mysteries in which those who became priests of the Etruscans were the first to understand. And since what you claim to teach is a Mystery tradition, I thought you may have come to the same--or similar--conclusion(s).

I believe that what Aradia taught was a blend of some archaic elements of Etruscan religion that had influenced the rustic Witches of Tuscany.
***Okay. But where did these Tuscan "witches" get their rustic craft? They obviously did not just make it up (hopefully), so it must have had an origin. If not based on Etruscan practices, then they had to have been based on Catholic ones.

Her form of Tuscan Witchcraft was no doubt modified by her, then by her followers, and to some extent by the culture & times that Witches found themselves in over the following centuries.
***Well, as I've said, I don't believe that Aradia was an historical person. And even if I did, I highly doubt that she would want disciples. The point is the Gods and Goddesses, is it not?

That being said, I am sure that they all tried to preserve the essence of the Old Religion as best they could.
***Which "Old Religion" are you referring to? That of the Villanovians? The Etruscans? The Romans? The Catholic-tinged folk customs? Inquiring minds want to know...
~R
_wedgie_

[raven grimassi]

I have learned to view Aradia as a Christian Gnostic would view Jesus. That is, rather than being an historical person, she is the way we have to take, the path we have to follow. We have to "become" an Aradia in much the same way that a Christian Gnostic desire to "become a Christ." So what I mean by a "type" of Tages is that I also do not see Tages as an historical being, but instead the innate understanding of the Mysteries in which those who became priests of the Etruscans were the first to understand.

Interesting. My personal view of Aradia is that she was type of Avatar figure, and that she was historical.


And since what you claim to teach is a Mystery tradition, I thought you may have come to the same--or similar--conclusion(s).

I do not "claim" to teach a mystery tradition, it is simply what I actually do. But as to Aradia, from a mystery school perspective, she is an avataric figure who continues the lineage of the mysteries, as masters have done for countless generations.



But where did these Tuscan "witches" get their rustic craft? They obviously did not just make it up (hopefully), so it must have had an origin. If not based on Etruscan practices, then they had to have been based on Catholic ones.

As I stated, the Etruscan religion was no doubt influential. But there has always been in ancient times a separation between city and country people. The Romans are probably a good example of the differences between the State religion of the cities and the rural beliefs and practices of the country people. Historian Albert Grenier (The Roman Spirit) points out that the vagabond class (magicians, fortune tellers, & witches) were rejected by the cities (and themselves rejected the State religion) and were forced to gather at the crossroads in order to worship in their own ways. It is interesting to note that Hesiod, in the Theogony, refers to the beliefs of the rustics as "the teachings of oak & boulder" (while referring to his teachings as something higher since they were delivered by the Muses).

But getting back to the Tuscan Witches, the origin of their religion appears to be rooted in prehistorical beliefs and practices of the region. Actually, as Gimbutas notes, the Etruscans were the heirs to prehistoric religion, but I think they refined and "civilized" it, whereas the rustics dealt with it in a more "raw" form. Still in all, living in the Etruscan empire was no doubt fertile ground for the influences of formal religion on the peasant traditions. But to what degree we can only speculate. Folklorist Charles Leland seems big on the notion.

But concerning the beliefs and practices of the rustics, there is an interesting passage in the book Roman and European Mythologies (University of Chicago Press, 1992). Here it is pointed out that the writers in the Hellenistic and Roman periods were astonished at the traces of the survival of "primitive conceptions and practices so distant from the rationality of the classical world" (which were incomprehensible to them).

With the rise of Christianity, some traditions took on a veneer of Saint veneration (and the like) as the pressure to convert the pagans grew in intensity. Unlike the religion of the Witches, folk traditions seem to have embraced it fully and evolved into their own independant traditions.

As to your comment about Catholic origins, since Catholicism came along very late in the game (from a chronological perspective) I would have to strongly disagree with your opinion.


I don't believe that Aradia was an historical person. And even if I did, I highly doubt that she would want disciples.

Who can say for certain. But as any teacher knows, not wanting disciples does not mean they will not assemble anyway.


Which "Old Religion" are you referring to? That of the Villanovians? The Etruscans? The Romans? The Catholic-tinged folk customs?

I refer to The Old Religion of the Witches, of course.

[Rasenna]

Interesting. My personal view of Aradia is that she was type of Avatar figure, and that she was historical.

***Do you have any proof of this?



I do not "claim" to teach a mystery tradition, it is simply what I actually do. But as to Aradia, from a mystery school perspective, she is an avataric figure who continues the lineage of the mysteries, as masters have done for countless generations.
***Well, and this is precisely why I asked if she weren't a "type" of Tages. Otherwise, what "Mystery" tradition was she a "master" of?




As I stated, the Etruscan religion was no doubt influential. But there has always been in ancient times a separation between city and country people. The Romans are probably a good example of the differences between the State religion of the cities and the rural beliefs and practices of the country people.
***Ah, but you are forgetting that the Romans were once the rustic country folk--a farming community of the Etruscan legion in the southern part of their Empire.

Historian Albert Grenier (The Roman Spirit) points out that the vagabond class (magicians, fortune tellers, & witches) were rejected by the cities (and themselves rejected the State religion) and were forced to gather at the crossroads in order to worship in their own ways.
***I do not understand what you mean by "the crossroads."

It is interesting to note that Hesiod, in the Theogony, refers to the beliefs of the rustics as "the teachings of oak & boulder" (while referring to his teachings as something higher since they were delivered by the Muses).
***So, what you're saying is that two people or groups who disagree on something can both claim to be inspired by the muses? Of course, being an Etruscan revivalist, the muses come secondary to me, as they were borrowed from the Greeks.

But getting back to the Tuscan Witches, the origin of their religion appears to be rooted in prehistorical beliefs and practices of the region.
***How can we have legitimate proof of this, if it is a pre-historical a.k.a. oral tradition?

Actually, as Gimbutas notes, the Etruscans were the heirs to prehistoric religion, but I think they refined and "civilized" it, whereas the rustics dealt with it in a more "raw" form. Still in all, living in
***Personally, I don't put too much stock in what Gimbutas writes, as she has been disreputed by other scholars for her mono-goddess focus.

the Etruscan empire was no doubt fertile ground for the influences of formal religion on the peasant traditions. But to what degree we can only speculate. Folklorist Charles Leland seems big on the notion.
***Ah, but he is only one source pertaining to the Etruscans and handed-down practices. I have yet to read a scholarly book who lists him as a serious source yet. Leland is really just the tip of the iceburg. One must delve far past him in order to get to authenticity. I'm not saying that his writings don't hold a piece of the puzzle, but considering that he was not as fluent in the particular dialect of Italian which Madellena, for instance, tutored him about the Aradian legend in, a lot of what he said must be taken with a grain of salt.

But concerning the beliefs and practices of the rustics, there is an interesting passage in the book Roman and European Mythologies (University of Chicago Press, 1992). Here it is pointed out that the writers in the Hellenistic and Roman periods were astonished at the traces of the survival of "primitive conceptions and practices do distant from the rationality of the classical world" (which were incomprehensible to them).
***No doubt, and of course the Etruscan religion was bannered as "The Mother of All Superstition." But I fail to see what this has to do with rustic Tuscan witchcraft, since it seems that you are saying that there was an "influence" of Etruscan customs, nothing more.

With the rise of Christianity, some traditions took on a veneer of Saint veneration (and the like) as the pressure to convert the pagans grew in intensity.
***I'm not entirely convinced that it happened like that. I think there is a natural lifespan of things--an ebb and flow. And since Etruscan religion was revealed, it might not have been such a difficult thing to do for the Etruscan-influenced Romans to trade one revealed religion for another.

Unlike the religion of the Witches, folk traditions seem to have embraced it fully and evolved into their own independant traditions.
***Personally, I don't see witchcraft as a religion. It is a practice, and therefore can be utilized by nearly any religion.

As to your comment about Catholic origins, since Catholicism came along very late in the game (from a chronological perspective) I would have to strongly disagree with your opinion.
***Okay, then how about giving some insight as to what you DO mean by "The Old Religion"?



Who can say for certain. But as any teacher knows, not wanting disciples does not mean they will not assemble anyway.
***I've often found this to be true. When people start thinking like me, I usually give them a swift mental kick in the panties. As the late lovely Dr. Leo Buscaglia was fond of saying, "I am not a guru. I don't want you to be a replica of me. Love, but do it in your own way."



I refer to The Old Religion of the Witches, of course.
***I fail to see that there was one "Old Religion." And, honestly, I cannot see that anyone prior to perhaps Leland, would refer to themselves as "witches."
Keep well,
-R
:smash:

[raven grimassi]

Do you have any proof of this?

Proving the existence of Aradia is like trying to prove the existence of Jesus. All we can point to are the writings of believers and the commentaries written by non-believers.

It is interesting to note that the book Ecstascies - Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath, by historian Carlo Ginzburg, contains a passage that may be akin to a historical reference to Aradia. On page 189 he speaks of a Pagan Sect known as the "Calusari" who, during the Middle Ages (as late as the 16th and 17th Centuries), worshipped a "Mythical Empress" who they sometimes called "Arada" or "Irodeasa." The Calusari also used the term "mistress of the fairies" for her, just as the followers of Aradia called Diana the Queen of the Fairies. There are certainly some very close similarities here, and we may be seeing a form of worship evolved from that which Aradia founded over 100 years earlier.



Well, and this is precisely why I asked if she weren't a "type" of Tages. Otherwise, what "Mystery" tradition was she a "master" of?

A master of what initiates would call the pre-Christian European mysteries. If you are interested I refer you to the writings of William Gray on the inner Western mystery tradition.



I fail to see that there was one "Old Religion." And, honestly, I cannot see that anyone prior to perhaps Leland, would refer to themselves as "witches."


We do know from various trial records that some people did acknowledge that they were Witches. The cases I am familiar with come from Italy, where the Church was more interested in repentance than punishment. One example of a self-professed Witch is the case of Laura Malipero who was tried and convicted of Witchcraft on three separate occasions. Another example is Elena Crusichi. If you are interested, I refer you to the book Witchcraft and the Inquisition in Venice 1550 - 1650, by historian Ruth Martin.


Ah, but you are forgetting that the Romans were once the rustic country folk--a farming community of the Etruscan legion in the southern part of their Empire.

Yes, once they were, until they evolved into a city state, and left behind the ways of the "pagani" in favor of the evolved view of the Olympian gods. Take the god Mars for example. He was originally an agricultural deity who became the god of war.


I do not understand what you mean by "the crossroads."

In ancient times this was the place where three roads meet (as opposed to modern times where four roads meet). Ancient writings depict the crossroads as a meeting place for Witches, and was sacred to the goddess Hecate.


So, what you're saying is that two people or groups who disagree on something can both claim to be inspired by the muses?

You lost me here as I do not recall saying that someone other than Hesiod was referring to the Muses.


How can we have legitimate proof of this, if it is a pre-historical a.k.a. oral tradition?

As I stated, their religion appears to be rooted in prehistorical beliefs and practices of the region. "Appears" is something different from verifiable fact, hence my use of the specific word. But I personally do not see any leap of logic in viewing the passage of prehistorical beliefs into the historical period. I mean, people did not say "Hey, it is the historical period now, so let's forget what we believed before and start something entirely new and different."

It is more likely that beliefs evolved and modified with the passage of time. This would be more pronounced in the cities, which experienced greater and more rapid internal changes than did the rural areas. The rustics, by contrast, kept pretty much to the beliefs and practices of their ancestors.


***Personally, I don't put too much stock in what Gimbutas writes, as she has been disreputed by other scholars for her mono-goddess focus.

While her later theories were certainly disputed by many scholars, her earlier work The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe still remains on solid ground. Not everything she wrote is questionable, and not everything is disputed. Let's be fair, if possible. She was, afterall, an educated professional in her field.


and of course the Etruscan religion was bannered as "The Mother of All Superstition." But I fail to see what this has to do with rustic Tuscan witchcraft, since it seems that you are saying that there was an "influence" of Etruscan customs, nothing more.

Yes, I am saying that the formal religion of the Etruscans measured some degree of infuence on the rustics within the empire. That seems natural enough. What it had to do with Tuscan Witchcraft is that it may have supplied certain deity names from Etruscan religion to what was likely a more primal and undefined view of deity among the early rustic Witches. But overall I believe they clung to their earlier roots, with a modification and a change here and there as needed over the passage of time.



Personally, I don't see witchcraft as a religion. It is a practice, and therefore can be utilized by nearly any religion.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, and you are certainly not alone. But my opinion is that it was originally a religion, and that some people later lifted its magical system and established a new branch which is a type of sorcery. It is interesting to note that the ancient Greek writers originally referred to Witchcraft as "illicit religion" and not as "illicit magic" or "illicit sorcery."


Okay, then how about giving some insight as to what you DO mean by "The Old Religion"?

Well, for a more indepth understanding of what I mean, you can read my books Italian Witchcraft and Hereditary Witchcraft, but I would be glad to give you the reader's digest version here. For me, the Old Religion that I refer to, is the surviving remnants of pre-Christian European Pagan religion as passed on by Witches down through the ages. It is a long trail with footprints in the sands of time. These are noted in the earliest word used in Western literature to denote a Witch. This was the word pharmakis (and its derivatives) which refer to specific people with herbal knowledge. Historian Richard Gordon (Imagining Greek and Roman Magic) states that pharmakis "became one of the standard words for 'wise-woman/witch', used as a substantive."

I see the Old Relgion reflected in the writings of Horace, Ovid and Lucan, who writings collectively depict Witches as worshippers of Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina, and Witches such as Medea as a priestess of the goddess. Hecate, being a fomer Titan (gods from the prehistoric period), seems to lend credence to the belief that rustic Witches held to elements of prehistoric religion even in the classical era.

I see the Old Religion in Italian Witchcraft trials that refer to the goddess Diana. And on and on it goes.


I've often found this to be true. When people start thinking like me, I usually give them a swift mental kick in the panties. As the late lovely Dr. Leo Buscaglia was fond of saying, "I am not a guru. I don't want you to be a replica of me. Love, but do it in your own way."

I agree. For my part, I have from the beginning told my initiates not to be followers, but to discern things for themselves. I encourage questioning and examining. My role is simply to say "Well, according to the teachings, it is this way..." From there, what they believe is up to them. I am just the stick in the mud that maintains the traditional view, and they can always find me there as needed.

[Belladona]

Being raised in the ways of the "Old Religion", I tend to agree wholeheartedly.
Diana was always the Goddess that was made references to around the
kitchen table.
Stregeria is still practiced today in the same way it was passed down,
although in my case, not quite so secretly.
Blessings,
Bella


_catroll_

[Rasenna]

Proving the existence of Aradia is like trying to prove the existence of Jesus. All we can point to are the writings of believers and the commentaries written by non-believers.
That was exactly my point. A person may choose to believe in Aradia as an hystorical person, or else choose to see her as the path to initiation--as myth. During the past decade or so, Jesus has been deconstructed as an historical person. Why not Aradia as well?



It is interesting to note that the book Ecstascies - Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath, by historian Carlo Ginzburg, contains a passage that may be akin to a historical reference to Aradia. On page 189 he speaks of a Pagan Sect known as the "Calusari" who, during the Middle Ages (as late as the 16th and 17th Centuries), worshipped a "Mythical Empress" who they sometimes called "Arada" or "Irodeasa." The Calusari also used the term "mistress of the fairies" for her, just as the followers of Aradia called Diana the Queen of the Fairies. There are certainly some very close similarities here, and we may be seeing a form of worship evolved from that which Aradia founded over 100 years earlier.
Right. That's what I'm saying. There's nothing inherently wrong with Aradia being mythical. It doesn't make her any less so just because she was not an avatar that existed in history. In Etruscan lore, the Queen of the Fairies was Turan surrounded by her Lasa. Are you saying that Diana is a bastardized form of Turan?






A master of what initiates would call the pre-Christian European mysteries. If you are interested I refer you to the writings of William Gray on the inner Western mystery tradition.
Are you speaking of Greek mysteries or of Roman ones? Mithraism, Bacchanalia rites, or the Eulusion (sorry--bad spelling) Mysteries? What?






We do know from various trial records that some people did acknowledge that they were Witches. The cases I am familiar with come from Italy, where the Church was more interested in repentance than punishment. One example of a self-professed Witch is the case of Laura Malipero who was tried and convicted of Witchcraft on three separate occasions. Another example is Elena Crusichi. If you are interested, I refer you to the book Witchcraft and the Inquisition in Venice 1550 - 1650, by historian Ruth Martin.
Well, I think that if someone were torturing me and branding me with hot irons or whatnot, I would confess to anything they asked as well. Besides, what I practice never met with Christian hands.





Yes, once they were, until they evolved into a city state, and left behind the ways of the "pagani" in favor of the evolved view of the Olympian gods. Take the god Mars for example. He was originally an agricultural deity who became the god of war.
I know all about Maris. Sometimes I jokingly call him the Christ of the southern heathen as he was also a sacrificial deity LOL.





In ancient times this was the place where three roads meet (as opposed to modern times where four roads meet). Ancient writings depict the crossroads as a meeting place for Witches, and was sacred to the goddess Hecate.
I know the historical views (or more precisely your views) on what the crossroads were. I just don't think it's something that all of a sudden came to be with the on-set of Christianity.









As I stated, their religion appears to be rooted in prehistorical beliefs and practices of the region. "Appears" is something different from verifiable fact, hence my use of the specific word. But I personally do not see any leap of logic in viewing the passage of prehistorical beliefs into the historical period. I mean, people did not say "Hey, it is the historical period now, so let's forget what we believed before and start something entirely new and different."
The historical period appeared gradually, in some places before others, when the written word was introduced to a region and literacy became the norm in that region. As for that last bit of tongue-in-cheek, I won't respond because it seemed a little condescending.





While her later theories were certainly disputed by many scholars, her earlier work The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe still remains on solid ground. Not everything she wrote is questionable, and not everything is disputed. Let's be fair, if possible. She was, afterall, an educated professional in her field.[/QUOTE]
I've worked with a lot of educated people in my lifetime who have made quite a spade of dubious claims.





Yes, I am saying that the formal religion of the Etruscans measured some degree of infuence on the rustics within the empire. That seems natural enough. What it had to do with Tuscan Witchcraft is that it may have supplied certain deity names from Etruscan religion to what was likely a more primal and undefined view of deity among the early rustic Witches. But overall I believe they clung to their earlier roots, with a modification and a change here and there as needed over the passage of time.
It seems that you and I practice two different traditions. So I won't go further here.






Thank you for sharing your opinion, and you are certainly not alone. But my opinion is that it was originally a religion, and that some people later lifted its magical system and established a new branch which is a type of sorcery. It is interesting to note that the ancient Greek writers originally referred to Witchcraft as "illicit religion" and not as "illicit magic" or "illicit sorcery."





Well, for a more indepth understanding of what I mean, you can read my books Italian Witchcraft and Hereditary Witchcraft, but I would be glad to give you the reader's digest version here. For me, the Old Religion that I refer to, is the surviving remnants of pre-Christian European Pagan religion as passed on by Witches down through the ages. It is a long trail with footprints in the sands of time. These are noted in the earliest word used in Western literature to denote a Witch. This was the word pharmakis (and its derivatives) which refer to specific people with herbal knowledge. Historian Richard Gordon (Imagining Greek and Roman Magic) states that pharmakis "became one of the standard words for 'wise-woman/witch', used as a substantive."
I've read your books, thank you. They are a great jumping off point, but there is a lot of eclectic and miscellaneous material in them that I just don't care for. I, for one, prefer the tried and true method of other Recons--academic tomes and UPG. I have ceased calling myself a witch and instead prefer the term heathen (even though it's Germanic).



I see the Old Relgion reflected in the writings of Horace, Ovid and Lucan, who writings collectively depict Witches as worshippers of Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina, and Witches such as Medea as a priestess of the goddess. Hecate, being a fomer Titan (gods from the prehistoric period), seems to lend credence to the belief that rustic Witches held to elements of prehistoric religion even in the classical era.
Why not just use the names of the Gods and Goddesses in their original forms? Or were these not widely available in the classical era?






I agree. For my part, I have from the beginning told my initiates not to be followers, but to discern things for themselves. I encourage questioning and examining. My role is simply to say "Well, according to the teachings, it is this way..." From there, what they believe is up to them. I am just the stick in the mud that maintains the traditional view, and they can always find me there as needed.
Well, I've heard differently from some (non-initiates) about your demeanor but I'll keep that on the down-low as it's personal opinion and not academic.
-Keep well,
~R
:fpoke:

[Nemesis Descending]

So, Raven, when are you going to stop pretending this person is sincere?

[raven grimassi]

That was exactly my point. A person may choose to believe in Aradia as an hystorical person, or else choose to see her as the path to initiation--as myth. During the past decade or so, Jesus has been deconstructed as an historical person. Why not Aradia as well?

I have no problem with someone viewing Aradia as mythical. It is just not my view.


In Etruscan lore, the Queen of the Fairies was Turan surrounded by her Lasa. Are you saying that Diana is a bastardized form of Turan?

LOL - wow, where did you come up with that as my view!? No, I see the common/classical form of Diana as something Romanized, probably derived from the Etruscan Artimite/Atimiti, but it may not be that simple. But Diana as known to the Witches is a goddess not known to the uninitiated.


Well, I think that if someone were torturing me and branding me with hot irons or whatnot, I would confess to anything they asked as well.

Torture was was rarely used in Italy. In fact many "confessions" were told to local priests in private, which were then passed to Church officials. Sometimes this led to secular authorites, and sometimes to the Roman Inquisition.


As for that last bit of tongue-in-cheek, I won't respond because it seemed a little condescending.

It was intended to be humorous.



It seems that you and I practice two different traditions.

Yes, I can see that.


Why not just use the names of the Gods and Goddesses in their original forms? Or were these not widely available in the classical era?

The ancient writers chose the common names associated with Roman Witchcraft. Other names were used by initiates, just as they continue to be used today. One might think of them as "inner court" and "outer court" names, to use modern phraseology.



I've read your books, thank you.

Well, there you surprise me since the bulk of your questions in your posts are answered fully in what I have written in my books. But perhaps you have a different reason for posting them on MW. Maybe your choice of icons is a clue.

[Rasenna]

So, Raven, when are you going to stop pretending this person is sincere?

I fail to understand what you mean by "sincere." If, by sincere, you mean my questions to Raven Grimassi, I am trying to discern whether there is any overlap between his tradition and mine. So far there seems to be very little. If by sincere you mean to doubt my commitment to an Italian tradition, I can assure you that my commitment is just as sincere is yours.
Keep well,
R
:abanana:

[Rasenna]

I have no problem with someone viewing Aradia as mythical. It is just not my view.

Fair enough.





LOL - wow, where did you come up with that as my view!? No, I see the common/classical form of Diana as something Romanized, probably derived from the Etruscan Artimite/Atimiti, but it may not be that simple. But Diana as known to the Witches is a goddess not known to the uninitiated.

Well, I just put two and two together. Since it was Turan, and not Atimiti who was depicted with three Lasa, I may have assumed that a Romanized name such as Turan may have been etymologically changed to Diana. It's not that far-fetched, really, when you look closely at it.





Torture was was rarely used in Italy. In fact many "confessions" were told to local priests in private, which were then passed to Church officials. Sometimes this led to secular authorites, and sometimes to the Roman Inquisition.

Okay. My bad.







The ancient writers chose the common names associated with Roman Witchcraft. Other names were used by initiates, just as they continue to be used today. One might think of them as "inner court" and "outer court" names, to use modern phraseology.

I wasn't aware that there was a Roman "witchcraft." I've never seen it mentioned on Nova Roma or by the Hellenes that I know.






Well, there you surprise me since the bulk of your questions in your posts are answered fully in what I have written in my books. But perhaps you have a different reason for posting them on MW. Maybe your choice of icons is a clue.

As I said, your books are a great starting point, but they also contain extraneous material that has little or nothing to do with anything specifically Italian (i.e. Wiccan material). You say as much in your intros and such. I am merely trying to compare and contrast your Italian witchcraft with what I do as an Etruscan revivalist. As for the other, I just pick icons at random pretty much. I am sorry if you read something into them that wasn't there.
Keep well,
~R
:fpeace:

[Nemesis Descending]

I fail to understand what you mean by "sincere."

To me your tone came across as antagonistic rather than explorative. The images you inserted seemed also intentionally antagonistic. So, naturally I thought you were here to troll. My apologies if I am wrong.

[raven grimassi]

I wasn't aware that there was a Roman "witchcraft." I've never seen it mentioned on Nova Roma or by the Hellenes that I know.

Here are a couple of academic works on the subject:

Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome. Edited by Bengt Ankarloo and Stuart Clark. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999.

Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds. Daniel Ogden. Oxford University Press, 2002

Naturally, this material is bias against the Witch figure, but the books do provide the popular depiction of Witches in the Aegean/Mediterranean.


I am merely trying to compare and contrast your Italian witchcraft with what I do as an Etruscan revivalist.

Okay, then let's do that. Can you share an overview? It might generate some interesting discussion.

[Rasenna]

Here are a couple of academic works on the subject:

Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome. Edited by Bengt Ankarloo and Stuart Clark. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999.

Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds. Daniel Ogden. Oxford University Press, 2002

Naturally, this material is bias against the Witch figure, but the books do provide the popular depiction of Witches in the Aegean/Mediterranean.



Okay, then let's do that. Can you share an overview? It might generate some interesting discussion.

Well, personally I have little or no interest in either the Greeks nor the Romans, except in how they interacted with the Etruscans. But thank you, anyway.
What I am doing right now is working with a fellow Etruscan revivalist on adapting the Roman yearly calendar to Etruscan deities and rites. I am also planning on buying a wood-tool kit and a round piece of hardwood to carve out an alter based on the sixteen divisions of cosmos that Etruscan priests utilized for haruspicy.
~R
:fpipesmok

[raven grimassi]

What I am doing right now is working with a fellow Etruscan revivalist on adapting the Roman yearly calendar to Etruscan deities and rites. I am also planning on buying a wood-tool kit and a round piece of hardwood to carve out an alter based on the sixteen divisions of cosmos that Etruscan priests utilized for haruspicy.

Sounds interesting. I am curious, do you consider the Etruscans indigenous to Italy, or do you subscribe to the theory that they migrated from the east?

[Rasenna]

Sounds interesting. I am curious, do you consider the Etruscans indigenous to Italy, or do you subscribe to the theory that they migrated from the east?

My own take on it is that they originally hailed from Lydia in Asia Minor since their religion is more akin to other modern Middle Eastern religions in that it was considered to be revealed. In that way, it appears to be in direct contrast to Indo-European religions. They also seem quite different from the Villanovians, the latter whose artifacts pin them as more of a warrior type people (in fact, some of their artifacts look similar to Nordic ones I've seen that my heathen friends have replicated).
Well, I'm off to watch "Roseanne."
Ta!

[raven grimassi]

My own take on it is that they originally hailed from Lydia in Asia Minor since their religion is more akin to other modern Middle Eastern religions in that it was considered to be revealed. In that way, it appears to be in direct contrast to Indo-European religions. They also seem quite different from the Villanovians, the latter whose artifacts pin them as more of a warrior type people (in fact, some of their artifacts look similar to Nordic ones I've seen that my heathen friends have replicated).

Interesting. I view them as indigenous, and tend to go with the majority of linguists who describe them as a "non Indo-European people native to Italy who adopted many customs, crafts, and styles of eastern Mediterrnean culture by way of trade." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by J.P. Mallory).

I am fascinated with the Etruscan concept of the Involuti, a hidden race of gods above the high gods (I do not recall where the Consentes figure in here). I wonder if this influenced the Roman notion that the Fates were above even the Olympic gods?

[Rasenna]

Interesting. I view them as indigenous, and tend to go with the majority of linguists who describe them as a "non Indo-European people native to Italy who adopted many customs, crafts, and styles of eastern Mediterrnean culture by way of trade." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by J.P. Mallory).

See, and I tend to look at the whole picture, not just linguistically, but culturally as well. Delving into their religiosity, they are much more in sync with say, the Hebrews and the Arabs insofar as how they viewed their Gods (albeit polytheisticially vs. monotheistically). A very interesting book on this subject is "Gli Etruschi." (Author's name escapes me at this moment.) Originally available in only Italian, I noticed that has recently been translated into English. Unfortuntately, it is out of print, but luckily I was able to borrow it from one of my University's libraries. I'm working very hard on building up my own mini-library of Etruscan lore, religion, customs, etc.


I am fascinated with the Etruscan concept of the Involuti, a hidden race of gods above the high gods (I do not recall where the Consentes figure in here). I wonder if this influenced the Roman notion that the Fates were above even the Olympic gods?

Who knows? That could have been influenced from anywhere. I have a lot of friends who are Asatruar, and since Rome was filled with cults/religions/traditions from all over Europe, it could have just as easily come from the Germanic peoples (since they also put the Norns above the Gods). I know that I have received messages from the Involuti, and they appear in a likewise fashion (through nature) as many Christian people on "The 700 Club" claim (my mom watched this a lot while I was growing up) their monotheistic god often speaks to them. Since there is no priestly class of diviners available in modern times, I had to decipher these messages for myself. At a certain point in my life a few years ago, these messages appeared in several distinct ways, but they always said the same thing: a breaking apart from what I once knew as far as family and security, and standing "naked," completely on my own for awhile, before routine could establish itself again. As far as the Olympic Gods went, I kind of see them as a "state" religion, and less mystical. I am sure there are Hellenes who will disagree with me, and I won't argue with them, since they know more about that particular set of deities than I do.
~R
:yayah:

[Rasenna]

Whoops! Forgot something! I don't understand what you meant by "The Consentes." You mean as the Roman counterpart of Greek Gods, or where they fit into Etrusco-Roman cosmology or what?
-R

[raven grimassi]

but luckily I was able to borrow it from one of my University's libraries. I'm working very hard on building up my own mini-library of Etruscan lore, religion, customs, etc.

Yes, English works are hard to fine. I have a few academic works, and a copy of a thesis dealing with the use of masks in Etruscan religion. The latter is fascinating, and in one section it explores the clown figure as chthonic (even drawing on tomb art patterns like stripes and dots as an early primal prototype for the clown costume).


I know that I have received messages from the Involuti, and they appear in a likewise fashion (through nature) as many Christian people on "The 700 Club" claim (my mom watched this a lot while I was growing up) their monotheistic god often speaks to them. Since there is no priestly class of diviners available in modern times, I had to decipher these messages for myself.

I think this type of thing is how the priestly class got started to begin with.



At a certain point in my life a few years ago, these messages appeared in several distinct ways, but they always said the same thing: a breaking apart from what I once knew as far as family and security, and standing "naked," completely on my own for awhile, before routine could establish itself again.

I can understand that, and I have also experienced a stripping away of things in my life as you describe. I think this is often necessary, even though it is often painful.


As far as the Olympic Gods went, I kind of see them as a "state" religion, and less mystical. I am sure there are Hellenes who will disagree with me, and I won't argue with them, since they know more about that particular set of deities than I do.

I think it is safe to say that at some point the Olympic gods are more of a State religion. I think the older forms remained with the rustics. This brings you and I full circle. ;)

[gidur23]

i saw a book in the store named stregha i think

it was about italian witchcraft

is it any good

[Rasenna]

Yes, English works are hard to fine. I have a few academic works, and a copy of a thesis dealing with the use of masks in Etruscan religion. The latter is fascinating, and in one section it explores the clown figure as chthonic (even drawing on tomb art patterns like stripes and dots as an early primal prototype for the clown costume).

So this thesis must be based around the time when Roman culture was taking over both Hellenic reason as well as Etruscan superstition? I notice that there was a swift change in Etruscan nobility at this juncture from general gaiety to darker images such as demons, etc.




I think this type of thing is how the priestly class got started to begin with.

What are you getting at? Are you trying to say that I am becoming some kind of priest(ess) LOL?





I can understand that, and I have also experienced a stripping away of things in my life as you describe. I think this is often necessary, even though it is often painful.

I think everyone has to some extent. Of course the more this happens to a person, the better character they build (hopefully).




I think it is safe to say that at some point the Olympic gods are more of a State religion. I think the older forms remained with the rustics. This brings you and I full circle. ;)

What I meant was whether you were asking me where the Consenti (sorry--spelling again--I know) fit in to the map of cosmology.
~R
:rant: (this one was too funny to pass up...!)

[raven grimassi]

So this thesis must be based around the time when Roman culture was taking over both Hellenic reason as well as Etruscan superstition? I notice that there was a swift change in Etruscan nobility at this juncture from general gaiety to darker images such as demons, etc.

The author refers to the time period he is covering as "from the Villanovan period into the "Hellentistic period 300 - first century bc"

If you ever run across a copy, it does seem very worthwhile. The title is:

The Mask in Etruscan Religion, Ritual, and Theater, by Elliott John (UMI Dissertation Services, 1998).


What I meant was whether you were asking me where the Consenti (sorry--spelling again--I know) fit in to the map of cosmology.

It was more that I could not remember where they fit. If I recall, the high gods consulted them before taking actions, and the Consentes "allowed" certain degrees of action. Was it not the Involuti who had to grant permission for very serious and far-reaching actions? It has been awhile since I brushed up on my formal Etruscan studies.

[Stephanie Taylor]

i saw a book in the store named stregha i think

it was about italian witchcraft

is it any good

You're probably referring to either Italian Witchcraft, or Ways of the Strega (the earlier version of the same book) by Raven Grimassi. Either way, a good overview of the Italian Craft mixed with modern Wiccan elements. The sequel to this book is Hereditary Witchcraft, and it has more of a focus on just the Italian material.

[Rasenna]

The author refers to the time period he is covering as "from the Villanovan period into the "Hellentistic period 300 - first century bc"

If you ever run across a copy, it does seem very worthwhile. The title is:

The Mask in Etruscan Religion, Ritual, and Theater, by Elliott John (UMI Dissertation Services, 1998).

From the Villanovian Period to the Hellenistic Period--that's a helluva long time! Must be a multi-volume dissertation--geesh!





It was more that I could not remember where they fit. If I recall, the high gods consulted them before taking actions, and the Consentes "allowed" certain degrees of action. Was it not the Involuti who had to grant permission for very serious and far-reaching actions? It has been awhile since I brushed up on my formal Etruscan studies.

I'm not clear. From what I understand, the Consentes WERE the High Gods (Tin/Iupiter, Uni/Iuno, Mnvra/Minvera, etc.). Are you saying that the Consentes had final "veto" power over the Involuti? If so, that makes sense under Roman law, but not the earlier Etruscan monarchy. Otherwise, I think you are a bit lacking in quality as far as your use of pronouns goes. :idea:
~R

[raven grimassi]

I'm not clear. From what I understand, the Consentes WERE the High Gods (Tin/Iupiter, Uni/Iuno, Mnvra/Minvera, etc.). Are you saying that the Consentes had final "veto" power over the Involuti?

Well, actually I am not making statements, I am asking questions.

But as to the Involuti, it seems clear that they are above all other beings. It was the office of the Consentes that I was unclear about.

I looked back at some of my notes, and came across the following from the book Etruscan Civilization, by Sybille Haynes (J.Paul Getty Museum, 2000). She writes that the Involuti adjudicate when Tinia (the Zeus equivalent) may hurl the third and most deadly of his thunderbolts. She also notes that the "dii consentes" are advisors of the supreme god.

[Rasenna]

To me your tone came across as antagonistic rather than explorative. The images you inserted seemed also intentionally antagonistic. So, naturally I thought you were here to troll. My apologies if I am wrong.

Apology accepted. On the 'net, it's easy to jump at shadows that aren't there.

:cheers:
~R