Are We Being Put Down ???

[Euphoria]

THIS THREAD COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS AND I REALISE THAT BUT I THINK EVERYONE IN HERE IS MATURE ENOUGH TO DEAL SENSIBLY WITH THIS SO PLEEEAASSEE FOR MY SAKE DON'T PROVE ME WRONG BY MAKING MODERATORS HAVE TO COME IN BECAUSE YOU ARE A) ATTACKING OTHER PEOPLE
B) ATTACKING OTHER THINGS
E.G RELIGIONS OR BELIEFS
THANK YOU

ok anyway i was listening to this song called Cernunnos but i cant remember who it was by .... and it is supposed to be cernunnos tokin about our lifestyles at the moment and a few things it said made me think

Are we being condemned by stereotypes and doctrains of fear based on lies ???

It seems to me that it started quite early on when other religions (i am in no way attacking anyone or thing i am merely pointing out that it was obviously not other pagans that spread these stereotypes) began to fear us and spread lies about us ... for example that we are ALL warty old women who serve the devil and dance naked round our caulsrons casting wicked spells.

In some places if you even utter that you are a pagan you are immediately scorned and tut-tutted at if not feared. Does anyone else feel this way or am i just too paranoid ??

AGAIN PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ANYONE OR THING thANKS !!!!!!!!

CHARYSMA

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have seen this too.

[MystOld]

Uhm this thread would probably be better in Political Pagan or Theology & Philosophy.

And I think you just answered your own question in your post btw - by asking are we being condemned by false stereotypes, then providing examples proving we are. SoooOOo was that really the question you were trying to ask or am I missing it?

[Euphoria]

I see what your point is but what i wanted to see was what other people thought as there are always two sides to a coin


CHARYSMA

[loopy]

I think every group and religion faces stereotypes. Witches are thought of as what you've already mentioned, Christians are thought to be prejudiced and spiteful, etc. It sucks, but until people smarten up, what can we do about it?

:)

[MystOld]

Ok I see but could you please stop using ALL CAPS - it is the online version of yelling.

Well I'm not sure anyone in a Pagan community will disagree that Pagans have been discriminated against because of fear... but I guess we'll see won't we?

[Euphoria]

sorry my keyboard was locked on caps ... but i was using it in my first post just to emphasize importance on that particular bit

charysma

[MystOld]

That's ok, happens to me sometimes too :) Heck it even happens to my dad, and I took off his caps lock key awhile ago lol

[GoddessofWisdom]

Just about everyone in the world stereotypes others and I feel that just about everyone has been the brunt of a stereotype :\. Most don't even realize that they are doing it. I think it's a natural responce when someond does not know about or understand another religion/culture/etc......

[gunner]

yes, we do get stereotyped but regrettably that's as old as the human race. how many primitive tribe's descriptive word for themselves translates to "the people" and/or "the only people" and everyone else is "the others", "the strangers".

[Lilu]

I agree with loopy :) Good post!

BB
Lilu

[Wyrdsister]

Does anyone have the lyrics to this song? I'd be interested to hear it or read about it.

Wyrdsister

[Danustouch]

Wyrd..i have the song saved on my harddrive...it's kind of difficult to understand the lyrics..but I'll give it a listen, and try to give you the lyrics.

[Euphoria]

Hey here are the lyrics to "Cernunnos"

p.s i have put question marks where words i amnt sure of should be

Beneath the ??? of aeons and ancient repose
my trust lay eroded by age
The old glory faded and past-times forgotten
My reign given way to my rage
??? the centuries
The land and i were one
My soil, my water, my air
Bringer of life and master of night
embalance the earth unto my care

But with the passing of days,
a new wind came blowing with whispers of change on its wing
and this tide of corruption laid siege to my world
unsurped a throne from its king
Your New gods your new ways
all seek to dispel me with doctrains of fear built on lies
The hidden one no longer
i claim my dominion
A son of your age i arise

Your anger
your ignorance
your blindeness
your greed
your progress
your conquest
your mania
your need
your sorrow
your sickness
your final pouting breath
your hatred
your bloodshed
your future
your death
I will have none
I will have none
I will have none
I will have none

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Unto this rotting age i bid farewell
BLESSED BE


Ok hope it helps

Luv Charysma

[talamh]

i am wondering who would dare to speak for the god? Seems to me the conclusion of the song is very once-born and mortal in it's analysis..... seeing the advent of other political and religious systems as opposition and disolution rather then evolution. Any system that remains static dies. The God is alive and well.. and so is the Goddess. We don't need to try to speak for the Immortal Ones.... They are doing a perfectly fine job of making Their Presence known. bb talamh

[kittiepoetrygod]

I think that because of the simple fact that Witchcraft isn't the most popular thing out there, Mystold, we have to suffer more steryotypes that have been ingrained into society. We have steryotypes of them, they of us, but they are most often a tad more vocal ... but i guess thats also a steryotype.

[Myst]

Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
I think that because of the simple fact that Witchcraft isn't the most popular thing out there, Mystold, we have to suffer more steryotypes that have been ingrained into society. We have steryotypes of them, they of us, but they are most often a tad more vocal ... but i guess thats also a steryotype.

Most popular what out there? Religion? What about when Paganism was big and Christianity was new? What about Romans and Christians? Nazis and Jews? White people and blacks? White people and Natives? Straight people and gays or transsexuals?

Absolutely *EVERYONE* is prejudiced against and put down at some time. Maybe you haven't heard it vocalized as far as your colour, sexual choice, ancestors, etc. but there are those who have. For me, I certainly faced 10x more flak for being Native then for being Pagan, by far.

Prejudice is far older then Paganism and everyone feels it at some point. It is human nature, unfortunately, and what can you do but ignore those who are obviously too ignorant to understand you anyway?

[kittiepoetrygod]

Yes, i meant religion, or a bunch of religions, i guess would be the better term. While they're aren't alot of strong Christians out there, about 75% of them carry an innate prejudice towards magick and witches.

I made no other comments about other prejudices because that is not the topic of the thread. I am a biracial native american scotish kid, and i get crap from alot of people. However, i'm not going to boohoo over it because alot of people got worse crap. However, as i understood it, the topic was Witches, so i didn't mention them. It sorta feels like that offended you, so i just wanted to clarify.

[arewynn]

its a song/poem it is thought provoking
does not seem to be putting down rather
remanisent....but it does not have to be
exact for it is symbolic

arewynn

[Myst]

Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
Yes, i meant religion, or a bunch of religions, i guess would be the better term. While they're aren't alot of strong Christians out there, about 75% of them carry an innate prejudice towards magick and witches.

That is also a stereotype. So they have a stereotype of you and you have one of them, and where does it get anyone?

Out of the people in my hometown, highschool, and at college I can tell you there was *no one* who carried prejudice against me for being a Witch; so that's a far cry from 75% to be sure. I've been wearing a pentacle on a necklace and/or on a ring since I was 18 (almost 22 now) and I've never had anyone "vocalize" their stereotypes strongly. In almost 4 years I've had one person ask me if I was a Satanist (to which I simply responded "nope, I'm a Pagan" and explained our beliefs to my classmates) and he's an Atheist.

So maybe it would be better to say "75% of the Christians I know have had a problem with my religion, even though I know that doesn't show that Christians as a whole are prejudiced against Witches & magick", and hope that of the people you've met most of them have just been ignorant or rude. For me, I would say "0% of the Christians I know have had a problem with my religion" even though that doesn't necessarily represent them as a whole either. *shrugs* Just something to think about. :)

I wasn't offended at all, I've just seen this discussion happen a few times at MW and stereotyping that "mainstream" or "most Christians" stereotype us always seem counterproductive to me. :)

[kittiepoetrygod]

Maybe its because i live in the U.S. and attend High School. 75% have carried a prejudice towards me as a Witch in my expierences.

[Lost Soul]

I think we are, but at the same time, I've also seen a large amount of support.
Judge not the whole on the actions of the few.

[Myst]

Well spoken, Lost Soul :)

[bansidhe]

i can only speak from my experience and what ive encountered so far, and seriously, it's about 50/50. ive had a hardish time at skool because of it, but then again, i go to a luthern skool so maybe im asking for it! :D
i was born and brought up in northern ireland and i only moved here a coupl of years ago, and my family are very set in their ways religion wise. my parents still think im a satanist, even tho im not. (ive got nothing against satanists, but i dont like being called something im not)
i honestly put this down to a general lack of education which i reckon can be rectified in time, and for my part, im honest with my friends and anyone who inquires about my beliefs, and i try to be a good example in day to day life. most of the people who have been bitchy to me about being a celtic pagan honestly have no idea what theyre talking about, so hopefully by setting them straight in a civil manner, i can somewhat dispel the shroud of misunderstanding, cos theyre usually afraid of the unknown, the unfamiliar.
again, i want to stress that this is juss imo, and from my experiences so far, and i dont want anyone to get upset or touchy about it! :sunny:
take care and brightest blessings,
bans. :bubbles:

[Da Witch]

I think that society in general tends to put down or "stereotype" those who they view as different or who the just do not understand. Every single person has, is or will stereotype. It's not that I'm saying it is the right thing to do, we all do it and hopefully there will come a point in time when everyone in the world will realise that being stereotypical of a group b/c of a few "bad seeds" is wrong, but i highly doubt that will happen.

[bansidhe]

i totally agree with you da witch!!! :) hopefully with time and patience, the 'bad seeds' can be ...converted...for want of a better word. (im a bansidhe, not a thesaurus)
take care and brightest blessings,
bans. :bubbles:

[Astara Seague]

I think evryone gets sterotyped sometime in the life no matter who they are

[Ninjakitten]

My answer is the same as it would have been if I took the poll only a few years ago when I was a fundamentalist Christian. Yes, Pagany types are stereotyped and condemned based on the stereotypes, and even back then I was busy fighting the lies. The root of the problem is the belief that anything that pulls someone away from Christ is of the Devil, because the Devil will use any means to pull someone from the saving grace of Christ and that includes him putting on his "angel of light" mask. I may still be a Christian (now with pagan leanings in belief and in practice), but I think the whole Christ thing goes far deeper than the shallowness that people thinks it takes to be "saved", and that most of the church's ideas of how to be "saved" stem from the natural desire to have power over others. That is why 1) Christianity has become so condemning and at times cruel, and 2) why people that think differently than the mainstream are condemned and harassed.

[BeigeAllen]

The sterotypes cannot really hurt us unless we allow them to. Too often the focus in the Pagan community is the Us vs Them mindset with far more focus on how bad they are and not enough focus on US whether good or bad.

Maybe if we came up with more solutions instead of just pointing to the problems, things would improve?

[LadyCelt]

I face judgement and things for being a Christian and wearing a cross, I feel some people fear me at times and I give off a fundamentalist vibe to some, but I" not a fundamentalist :)


christianity foudn paganism to oppose it and said it was satanic etc, it prayed on the illiterate and less educated public.

[Crimson Mage]

I have to disagree a bit with some of what I've read here.

Let me start by telling you who and what i am:
I'm a 49 yo male Pagan, and have been as long as I can remember. I also own a Pagan/Witchcraft shoppe here in my city.

A LOT of what happens with Pagans being ostracized has to do with actions Pagans themselves take. I walk down the street like every other man, but i happen to wear a Pentacle instead of a Cross (this is a VERY Catholic community btw -- 75% I would guess.). Now, I do get the occasional question about my Pent, and what it means, but in a very "tell me about yourself" kind of way. Not antagonistic at all. People stroll by my shoppe when I am outside and stop and exchange pleasantries on a nice day. They ask about the crystal ball in the window, and the "Tree Hugging dirt worshipper" bumper sticker. Or maybe they ask about the Book of Shadows, or the assortment of oils and Tarot Cards. And when they do, they are responded to in an intelligent fashion, one that draws out their interests and gives them a chance to speak about what appeals to them.

What I am getting to is this - many many Pagans out there try to make a statement about what they are, and force people to recognize it. They might do it by dressing in such a way as to make them singular in appearance, whether it be some "goth" clothing ( and please, thats not a Pagan thing, its really just an anti-social statement, and a rather loud one at that.), or maybe its something more subtle, like making sure youre in the background - unnoticed. It could even be you make your statement by rallying loudly to the Pagan defense anytime the word christian is spoken. when things like this are done, you immediately put yourself on the outside looking in, and you therefore lose all sense of community. In my humble opinion, any Pagan that would critcize a Christian for what they believe is as guilty as the Christian of having a narrow-minded faith. Isnt one of the basic principles of Paganism that every person should have the right to believe as they wish? If thats true, why as a good pagan, would you ever chastize the Christian? the moment you do, youre guilty of not following your own principles.

I truly believe there are a great number of Pagans who spend so much time rehashing the age-old arguement of Pagan vs Christian that it actually perpetuates the state of things, and does not allow it to progress towards a world where we all worship who we wish, when we wish. Granted, thats true on both sides of the issue for sure, but as Pagans, we must look at ourselves and understand that we do our own part to keep this myth going.

[smckim]

Unfortunately, I think this is a human trait. Haven't we all at one time or another passed judgment on someone or something without REALLY knowing all the information. Some of us have evolved past that, but some just never do.

[Ninjakitten]

Very interesting insights, Crimson Mage. I definitely see those as problems as well. Many times, it is our own actions that can cause stereotypes against us, and not just power-mongers within a faith trying to build themselves up by putting others down. With the Christians I've been with, it's usually what I said, but I have witnessed what you've mentioned as well.

[bshore]

I agree with CM. Sure there are people out there who have been taught that Pagans are Evil, and they have horrible images of us, but I believe those people are in the minority. I think we're far more likely to see someone who has come into contact with a Pagan who was extremely vocal about their beliefs, and clearly had contempt for those who believe otherwise.

You said something to the effect that these stereotypes weren't perpetuated by Pagans. I disagree. Pagans may not try to come off as offensive, but I've met a handful of them who certainly come off as abrasive and a bit closed-minded. And as we all know, those with the most extreme message will shout it the loudest, therefore the Pagans who have contempt for other beliefs (whether they realize it or not) are the ones who get the most attention.

In my opinion, the only way we can counteract this is by being peaceful and friendly Pagans who set a good example for the community.

[Ninjakitten]

I agree with CM. Sure there are people out there who have been taught that Pagans are Evil, and they have horrible images of us, but I believe those people are in the minority. I think we're far more likely to see someone who has come into contact with a Pagan who was extremely vocal about their beliefs, and clearly had contempt for those who believe otherwise.

You said something to the effect that these stereotypes weren't perpetuated by Pagans. I disagree. Pagans may not try to come off as offensive, but I've met a handful of them who certainly come off as abrasive and a bit closed-minded. And as we all know, those with the most extreme message will shout it the loudest, therefore the Pagans who have contempt for other beliefs (whether they realize it or not) are the ones who get the most attention.

In my opinion, the only way we can counteract this is by being peaceful and friendly Pagans who set a good example for the community.


Some of the stereotypes may be the fault of obnoxious pagans being obnoxious around obnoxious Christians, but last I heard, pagans don't really eat babies, kidnap children for their covens, have extra nipples to feed demons with, or are all so evil that they look like warty hags. I can't see any reason such myths would come about except for the Christian church trying to control people.

Did I mention I'm a Christian, BTW? My fellow Christians at times still tell me to my face these things when I tell them I have friends that have become pagan (yes, literally those things). Even when I was a fundamentalist, I had to fight off the dumb assumptions that were told to me and tell them my real experiences with pagans (which I've always had a lot since I participate in the Renaissance Faire scene, which also taught me tolerance before becoming Christian).

[cheddarsox]

There is a lot of stereotyping that goes on within the pagan community as well, toward other pagans. Human nature I guess. I get weary of people assuming I am a witch or Wicca, or all about the goddess.

I get WAYYYY tired of people who act all smug and condescending because I haven't read as many books as they have or the books they decided any "worthy" pagan should read. Or because I don't wear the right jewelry or have the "pagan" look that they spend lots of time and $ cultivating.

Honestly, I have gotten way more annoying flack from within the community than I have from outsiders.

cheddar

[OrionNeb87]

I haven't really experienced too much stereotyping with my religious beliefs at all. Come to think of it I got stereotyped more in 6th grade for being from a "poor" family than I ever had for my beliefs. I found, especially in college, that when people find out I'm pagan they either think its cool and want to know more or they could care less. I've only experienced opposition once and that was from my highschool's librarian and one of my teachers there. I only tell those who ask and when asked I tell the truth regardless of the consequences. I agree with most people here that stereotyping is a natural human trait. I know I've been guilty of it plenty of times. The best thing to do is to just learn how to distinguish stereotypical descriptions from whats really going and thats done by educating oneself which we do everyday. :)

[bshore]

Some of the stereotypes may be the fault of obnoxious pagans being obnoxious around obnoxious Christians, but last I heard, pagans don't really eat babies, kidnap children for their covens, have extra nipples to feed demons with, or are all so evil that they look like warty hags. I can't see any reason such myths would come about except for the Christian church trying to control people.

Did I mention I'm a Christian, BTW? My fellow Christians at times still tell me to my face these things when I tell them I have friends that have become pagan (yes, literally those things). Even when I was a fundamentalist, I had to fight off the dumb assumptions that were told to me and tell them my real experiences with pagans (which I've always had a lot since I participate in the Renaissance Faire scene, which also taught me tolerance before becoming Christian).

Hmm. Well, I was by no means trying to say that every pagan stereotype was perpetuated by obnoxious Pagans. What I am saying is that personally, I've experienced this type of stereotyping far more often then the evil extra nipple kind. I've never encountered someone who actually believs that there are people out there who eat babies and kidnap children and have extra nipples. Mostly, they just think we're mislead by the devil.

Obviously you've had a much different experience of this, and that gives you a very different take on the issue. That's cool, since I'm sure it's a combination of several factors including misinformation, exposure to obnoxious wanna blessed bes, and simple closedmindedness. I do not, however, think that people are actively trying to perpetuate stereotypes that are so blatantly hateful. I think that people simply don't understand how hurtful something as simple as repeating something you've just heard in passing can be.

P.S. I've noticed that in another thread you mention doing spells fairly regularly. Are you a Christian/Pagan? Just curious.

[Ninjakitten]

P.S. I've noticed that in another thread you mention doing spells fairly regularly. Are you a Christian/Pagan? Just curious.


Yep. I am a Christian witch, though my druid friends think I might be more druid than witch. I draw some ritualistic inspiration from Wicca, and I research other things, like Christian mysticism and the martial arts. I feel the energies witches, martial artists, other pagans, etc. use is the energies Godde put into all of Creation, and that we're allowed to use it to experience the Divine (to an extent).

Oh, and the rest of what you said, I more think that a lot of the old stereotypes simply got passed down throughout history, and some people just didn't bother going out to be corrected. You're probably right for the majority, I'm just being a little extreme because of a few extreme instances that suprised me by people I've had respect for for a long time. I actually do encounter the "Devil just leading people the wrong way" ideas more.

[AlleyCat]

I think we get a lot of grief from a lot of people and that people who come forth claiming to be of a certain tradition and then make an arse of themselves doesn't do the rest of the religious population any good but you get the good and the bad in all religions just look at how the poor Islamic people are getting a pretty bad rap for what some extreme terrorists have done...but I do think that these false stereotypes are resulting in less people taking our religious beliefs seriously, IMO

[LostSheep]

There is a lot of stereotyping that goes on within the pagan community as well, toward other pagans. Human nature I guess. I get weary of people assuming I am a witch or Wicca, or all about the goddess.

I get WAYYYY tired of people who act all smug and condescending because I haven't read as many books as they have or the books they decided any "worthy" pagan should read. Or because I don't wear the right jewelry or have the "pagan" look that they spend lots of time and $ cultivating.

Honestly, I have gotten way more annoying flack from within the community than I have from outsiders.

cheddar

I haven't experienced much sterotyping from everyday folk either; maybe it's just because I haven't been 'out' as a pagan long, but at school the other day i was talking about the similarities between paganism and Christianity and no one squawked 'devil worshipper', and I wear my pentacle quite openly, but I do think that there is steroetyping within the pagan community, that we're all Wiccans and have to follow one particular path; go into a bookstore and, if there's anythign pagan-related at all, you can be sure it'll be all about wicca. I'm not knocking Wicca, but I don't worship my gods by specific names, and I'm still influenced by christianity, so i don't quite fit into one convenient pigeonhole. I was doing one of those online quizzes the other day, 'Pagans! How christian are you?' or soemthing like that, and it said, 'Pah! You're a closet Christian. Go back to church where you belong'. Well, thanks.

So, then. I guess that's all I have to say for now .... gosh i've gone on haven't I. :rant:

[Athene]

For me, I feel it's important to realise one thing and to do two other things.

1) as many here have said, almost everyone is prejudiced against at some point
2) discover true history
3) to not play the victim

Too often I hear pagans preach about the wrongs done to them, usually by Christians. As if all pagans throughout history have been a a peaceful earth-honouring lot. Christians have done terrible things, pagans have, witches have, and so on and on.
The same neo-pagans that denounce one religion for their intolerant 'us and them' ideologies will often hold the same philosophy, with 'us' as 'wonderful tolerant pagans', and 'them' as the supposedly intolerant religions.

Fact - there are good and bad, tolerant and intolerant, enlightened and ignorant people in every single path and religion in the world. Neo-pagans are no better or worse, because you take individuals as they come not groups.

It is then important to not get stuck in the past or even in present circumstances of prejudice. I ,as a Christian, am prejudiced against all the time, as a traditional witch I keep silent so don't see any of that. But who cares? I don't. Why? Because prejudice can occur to anyone. If you focus on victimisation, you have missed the purpose of spirituality.

Victimisation says - look at me, aren't I special, poor me for being persecuted by others.
Spirituality says - there is no 'I' or 'you'.

If you do feel victimised, then do you feel that way in other parts of your life? Your own Shadow of Martyrdom needs to be dealt with rather than other people.

just me 2 pence worth

love, peace and clarity

[AlleyCat]

Hey LostSheep,

Do you have the link for the pagan how christian are you quizz? Sounds like some fun to pass the time with, well, for 10 minutes anyway hahaha

Alley Cat

[LostSheep]

here: http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=17692760460647142266

hope it works.