How new is the Elvish race?

[surreal]

Seriously.....

I am trying to figure out the first works describing elvish likeness. Tolkien is the farthest back I can go due to it's emense popularity. Also Dungeon and Dragons has defined elvish ways.

Basicly how old is the idea of the woodland based elf?

[Druchii]

Seriously.....

I am trying to figure out the first works describing elvish likeness. Tolkien is the farthest back I can go due to it's emense popularity. Also Dungeon and Dragons has defined elvish ways.

Basicly how old is the idea of the woodland based elf?


?!... if you mean like woodsy sprite like elves probably as old as man's fear of the unknown and his thought process.

If you mean in modern literature, Tolkien is it.

[surreal]

?!... if you mean like woodsy sprite like elves probably as old as man's fear of the unknown and his thought process.

If you mean in modern literature, Tolkien is it.


mmm woodsy sprite. I like that.


Not just in Modern literature, but world literature. Where and when did the idea of elves come about. Is it just in 20th century American literature?

[Druchii]

mmm woodsy sprite. I like that.


Not just in Modern literature, but world literature. Where and when did the idea of elves come about. Is it just in 20th century American literature?



No, I think some of the earliest accounts of "elves" per se date back to the 11th century that I have read. If you do a search of the forum, you will find a lot of info on the fae and elves.. including a photo thread, and somewhere I posted a picture of the fae woven flag that hangs to this day in a Scottish Castle.

[Sequoia]

Ideas about human-sized elves that were ranger-ish are quite modern. In mythology there have been "elves", but they were tiny. Think synonymous with "fairy." Tiny little mischevious creatures.

Modernly, an "elf" is usually something a la tolkien or D&D, and a fairy is this silly little tiny humaniod creature with pretty coloured wings that flutters about.

[AlAskendir]

Seriously.....

I am trying to figure out the first works describing elvish likeness. Tolkien is the farthest back I can go due to it's emense popularity. Also Dungeon and Dragons has defined elvish ways.

Basicly how old is the idea of the woodland based elf?


'Alf-s' were mentioned in the Norse Edda-s in three kinds: Vin Alfs, Lead by the Vanir (race of Gods) and Frey in particular; Svart Alfs which we have come to think of as 'dwarves'; and Dark Alfs...deadlier even than some Giants! Some of these even made it into Tolkien's works, like Vindalf's brother 'Gandalf'!

Now, if you're talking essence as opposed to quotable sources, the Sumerian 'histories' are full of beings that look almost exactly human (though more "refined"), live amazingly long times (thousands of years), and tend not to enjoy using devices made out of- or making buildings with- iron;; and that's in the vicinity of 34,000 years ago (according to those same 'histories')

[AlAskendir]

Ideas about human-sized elves that were ranger-ish are quite modern. In mythology there have been "elves", but they were tiny. Think synonymous with "fairy." Tiny little mischevious creatures.

Modernly, an "elf" is usually something a la tolkien or D&D, and a fairy is this silly little tiny humaniod creature with pretty coloured wings that flutters about.


Au contrere!
I'm sorry, but the " tiny-ness" factor is a result of a kind of reverse saga - - - stories are retold over and over again, and with each version the Tuatha or the Pict that was a few inches shorter than those 'normal humans' he interacted with became fantastically shorter and shorter.
I agree that some folklore speaks as you say, but to state this opinion without qualifiers is to imply that you know, for absolute sure, that all 'elves' were always "tiny"...
A dangerous position to take.

[Sequoia]

I can only speak of things I have heard or ready myself. :)

Other than the Sumerian legends you are (for some reason) associating with the question about 'wood elves', do you have any sources besides Norse? It was my understanding that an "Alf" was not the same as Legolas... I could be wrong, though. :lol:

[AlAskendir]

I can only speak of things I have heard or ready myself. :)

Other than the Sumerian legends you are (for some reason) associating with the question about 'wood elves', do you have any sources besides Norse? It was my understanding that an "Alf" was not the same as Legolas... I could be wrong, though. :lol:


Do we need a non-Norse source? If you examine Legolas and Frey, there are some major similarities (not counting facial hair).

But, okay, yeah... The Tuatha de Danaan were what became the Fey Folk in Ireland, they're much like Legolas in size, apparent lifespan, apparent long-lasting youth, pointed ears, fair hair and skin (most of them), types of dwelling places, reputed knowledges, and many, many other things.

Legolas isn't an Alf?

Ooookaaaaay.....

[jodarius]

Elves also come up in the Norse religion, their world was one of the seven worlds, there was both light and dark elves. I would say truthfully that the norse were probably the first to introduce elves. Tolkien got a lot of ideas and such from norse beliefs.

[DraoinanDuanaire]

I think it's pretty obvious that Tolkieneque elves are ultimately based on the alfar and the shidhe. Like humans, but beautiful (or terrifying), long-lived to immortal, advanced understanding of magic/sciences, less numerous but sometimes breeding with humans, deadly in war, etc.

The tiny sprite idea is modern.

The bratach síth has already been mentioned...it's a "fairie flag" that hangs in a mac Leoid castle in Scotland. Family legend has it that one of their chiefs had a dalliance with a sidhe woman, and was given this banner to ensure victory and safety for the people the sidhe had come to love, and this was centuries after the converstions to Christianity. Hard to make love to Tinkerbell, eh?

[Verthandi]

Au contrere!
I'm sorry, but the " tiny-ness" factor is a result of a kind of reverse saga - - - stories are retold over and over again, and with each version the Tuatha or the Pict that was a few inches shorter than those 'normal humans' he interacted with became fantastically shorter and shorter.
I agree that some folklore speaks as you say, but to state this opinion without qualifiers is to imply that you know, for absolute sure, that all 'elves' were always "tiny"...
A dangerous position to take.

Shakespeare was probably the most well-known storyteller to reduce the elves' height. Remember A Midsummer Night's Dream? Tolkien hated that play with a passion because of how the fae were portrayed (think Puck).

[AugustFirst]

Elvis died in 1977 dear. ;)

[John_Mischief]

?!... if you mean like woodsy sprite like elves probably as old as man's fear of the unknown and his thought process.

If you mean in modern literature, Tolkien is it.

Actually, I think probably the first was Lord Dunsany in his "The King Of Elfland's Daughter" if you're talking about fantasy literature.


In folklore? Probably back as far as writing goes, I would imagine. Not called Elves, but the sort of nature spirit that you see in most cultures that usually get grouped as fairies nowadays.

Once into the middle ages, you see a lot of tinier fairies, brownies, ect. popping up, and it just kind of progressed from that to the happy smiley fairies from current pop culture.

[Djiril]

Elvis died in 1977 dear. ;)
:lol:

[Grey]

Look up Norse Mythology, youll find elves, light elves, and dark elves... If you look hard enough you also find a few tribes of native scandinavians that are fair, with swallow faces and black or blonde hair... slightly shorter than average... oh and if I recall correctly three of the tribes heard reindeer.
Youll also find dwarves, shape shifters *like BEORN* Dragon hordes with magic rings, and the ring as a powerful symbol of royalty *kings/chiefs were known as ring givers to danes, saxons, normans and angles... not sure about the jutes.*.

Hope that helps some.