Making a witch

[Kendrah]

In my tradition, witches are people how have 'the good blue blood'. And I'm sure you've all heard the term natural witches. (Not meaning that you came out of the womb with an athame waving, but rather an inclination/ talent like some people can play the piano really well.)

However, there must be opposites of these terms. Not everyone has it in their blood. What about Someone who doesn't have it in their blood, no apparent talents, and such. How would you train those people who seem hellbent on being witches? Should you continue throwing energy at them or should you tell them what you think of them being witches or whatnot?

Just a random thought.

[StarSpiral]

(To further your piano metaphor)

I believe that anyone can be a witch. While there are those who are naturally better at manipulating energy, anyone can do it with enough practice. Just as anyone can learn to play the piano with practice

[SoulHealer]

Ditto what Starspiral said


here blue blood tends to mean you are royality, noble, aristocracy .....wonders how many witches there are in the royality ;)

I think the other part is unless they throw their own energy -whether they have natural talent or not they will never be a witch

[Valerie]

Double Ditto.

I've always been somewhat skeptical of "natural witches", because I think everyone can train and hone their natural abilities to manipulate energy. While some may take longer than others to get the hang of it, if the drive and desire are there, it will happen. ;)

[argento_occhi]

I do believe that some people will take to it better/faster/easier than others, though that doesn't make them any more superios to those who aren't 'naturals'. Just like anything. if you have the determination and the ambition and the drive (the same thing three times, i know!) then you can do whatever you want. I heard somewhere that it's not talent that's important, it's how often you practice. There might be some 'naturals' who don't even know they are 'naturals' and never end up finding paganism/witchfraft/etc. Just my opinion.

Argent

[Kendrah]

But there are people who study the piano for years and years and years who are still tone deaf. You all must admit there are things you just can't do. It doesn't make you less of a person. You just know what you are capable. So why wouldn't it be that there are people who can't be witches, have no talents for it, etc?

(I'm not an avid believer in the theory that if you try hard enough you can do anything, if you can't tell :))

[SoulHealer]

They might not be an award winning pianoist....but they can still play the piano and play it far better than me who can't and have never learnt

They might not meet the same standard of greatness but I think sometimes those that have struggled to achieve the stage they have have a deeper understanding and appreciate it more than natural talented people, as they have really put they heart and soul into it where as naturally born talented people tend to take it for granted more

[Dio]

But there are people who study the piano for years and years and years who are still tone deaf. You all must admit there are things you just can't do. It doesn't make you less of a person. You just know what you are capable. So why wouldn't it be that there are people who can't be witches, have no talents for it, etc?

(I'm not an avid believer in the theory that if you try hard enough you can do anything, if you can't tell :))
Well, they may not be able to call themselves a pianist, but if playing the piano is something they love, and is a source of happiness, who are we to judge whether or not they should be allowed to play.

Same thing with spiritual paths. Someone may come to it because they get something out of it. It helps them grow, it fullfills them spiritually. If someone wants you to teach them, then by all means, teach them. Regardless of whether or not you thinlk they have 'talents'. If someone is that dedicated to learning, then they are there for a reason. You cannot question why. And you cannot question whether or not you feel your time will be waisted.

It doesn't matter if someone is 'good' at what they do. All that matters is that they are giving it their best.

[Kendrah]

They might not meet the same standard of greatness but I think sometimes those that have struggled to achieve the stage they have have a deeper understanding and appreciate it more than natural talented people, as they have really put they heart and soul into it where as naturally born talented people tend to take it for granted more

Having all the apprication in the world doesn't mean you can perform and function as a pianist, or a witch in this case. If you have tried and tried and still can't carry a tone, can't play 'mary had a little lamb', and such, all the apprication and special understanding doesn't amount to anything.

[dr_zeus440]

It doesn't matter if someone is 'good' at what they do. All that matters is that they are giving it their best.
so if you commission the services of a witchdoctor to raise your dead grandfather to find out where he buried the family fortune, and theyre not good enough to come through with the goods, then it doesnt matter that they end up losing control and setting free evil spirits that eat your head, as long as they were doing their best?

[Dawa Lhamo]

Right, but I don't think magic is as specific as a piano. You could say that doing magic is like making music. Perhaps one tradition is the piano, another the flute, you've got voice, percussion, etc. Now, say you're like me and you just can't get bass clef. I took piano two years, and while I can do simple things still, it wasn't for me. But did I give up music altogether? No. Next I sang in the choir. Actually, I got to sing a lot of lead parts, not because my voice was great, but because I could sing in-tune. After the other kids in choir developed their pitch, though, I just became peripheral... So then I decided to play the flute. Turned out to be a good match. Now, say if I was, indeed, tone-deaf, that doesn't mean I have to give up music altogether either. I won't be able to tell if I'm out of tune and won't really be able to play by ear, but given good music and notes, I can make something serviceable. And even then, if tonal music just isn't working, there's always percussion. Tone-deaf people tend to still have good rhythm even if they can't "carry the tune"...

Personally, I think that if you are looking at only one or only a few systems of magic or manipulating energy, then yes, some people will just be incapable of doing it, and some will naturally have that bent, while people in between need training. But if you look at the vast array of ways to do magic, then it seems to me that if a person is dedicated enough, they will eventually find something that fits with them. ^_^

And people often don't realize that even though you may not see it or feel the energy/magic, that doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means that you need to be very careful and deliberate. ^_^

I don't know, just my thoughts... ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Dio]

so if you commission the services of a witchdoctor to raise your dead grandfather to find out where he buried the family fortune, and theyre not good enough to come through with the goods, then it doesnt matter that they end up losing control and setting free evil spirits that eat your head, as long as they were doing their best?
Heheh. Well, you have a point....a little outlandish, and off-base. But ok. Point taken.

[Kendrah]

It doesn't matter if someone is 'good' at what they do. All that matters is that they are giving it their best.

But isn't it cruel to lead someone on. If you're teaching someone, it's implies that there is something there for them. They soon grow frustrated and would leave in a greater fuss then someone who you were frank with.

[Dio]

Right, but I don't think magic is as specific as a piano. You could say that doing magic is like making music. Perhaps one tradition is the piano, another the flute, you've got voice, percussion, etc. Now, say you're like me and you just can't get bass clef. I took piano two years, and while I can do simple things still, it wasn't for me. But did I give up music altogether? No. Next I sang in the choir. Actually, I got to sing a lot of lead parts, not because my voice was great, but because I could sing in-tune. After the other kids in choir developed their pitch, though, I just became peripheral... So then I decided to play the flute. Turned out to be a good match. Now, say if I was, indeed, tone-deaf, that doesn't mean I have to give up music altogether either. I won't be able to tell if I'm out of tune and won't really be able to play by ear, but given good music and notes, I can make something serviceable. And even then, if tonal music just isn't working, there's always percussion. Tone-deaf people tend to still have good rhythm even if they can't "carry the tune"...

Personally, I think that if you are looking at only one or only a few systems of magic or manipulating energy, then yes, some people will just be incapable of doing it, and some will naturally have that bent, while people in between need training. But if you look at the vast array of ways to do magic, then it seems to me that if a person is dedicated enough, they will eventually find something that fits with them. ^_^

And people often don't realize that even though you may not see it or feel the energy/magic, that doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means that you need to be very careful and deliberate. ^_^

I don't know, just my thoughts... ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

Nicely said, Dawa. This is exactly what I was getting at :)

I have had many folks come my way, wanting to learn. I have had some very exceptional people who are talented in many ways. Others have none at all. Those who don't, never stay around for long. I have yet to have someone with absolutely NO ability stick around.

However, if someone with no apparent talents truly wanted to stay and learn, I would teach them. There are no limits to someone's desire....you just have to help them cultivate it. If it is something they want, you should never tell them "they can't".

The only time I have ever turned someone away is if they are either a danger to me or themselves.

[Dio]

But isn't it cruel to lead someone on. If you're teaching someone, it's implies that there is something there for them. They soon grow frustrated and would leave in a greater fuss then someone who you were frank with.
Teaching someone is not leading them on, nor is it lying to them. If they leave, they were never meant to be there in the first place.

[SoulHealer]

Even those with no talent who don't stick it can learn something vauable to themselves or for their path as can the teacher who is trying to teach them

Not everything comes down to how successful you are sometimes the most important lessons are in the failures we face in life

[Rev R]

If your failures teach valuable lessons then aren't they successes?

[dr_zeus440]

Right, but I don't think magic is as specific as a piano. You could say that doing magic is like making music.

you could also say that doing magic is like singing. in that case, you can be as technically brilliant as you like, if the natural tone of your voice is horrible, then you'll never be a good singer. thus negating your entire point. so who's right, is doing magic like singing or like making music? trying to argue a point by using a metaphor is a huge mistake (scroll down for another reason as to why this is so).


Perhaps one tradition is the piano, another the flute, you've got voice, percussion, etc.

and perhaps its not. perhaps magic is like all of music, cooking is like all of visual art, woodwork is like all of dance etc. perhaps being alive is like being able to use magic and perhaps being dead is like being unable to use magic. in which case, seeing as some people are obviously dead and some people are obviously alive, some people are obviously able to use magic and others obviously arent. my metaphor is just as valid as yours i.e. both are equally useless for arguing a point. its about as useful as saying that its your personal opinion that something you have never seen is slightly less blue than something else you have never seen.


Now, say you're like me and you just can't get bass clef. I took piano two years, and while I can do simple things still, it wasn't for me. But did I give up music altogether? No. Next I sang in the choir. Actually, I got to sing a lot of lead parts, not because my voice was great, but because I could sing in-tune. After the other kids in choir developed their pitch, though, I just became peripheral... So then I decided to play the flute. Turned out to be a good match. Now, say if I was, indeed, tone-deaf, that doesn't mean I have to give up music altogether either. I won't be able to tell if I'm out of tune and won't really be able to play by ear, but given good music and notes, I can make something serviceable.

its good to hear that you werent discouraged by your failures, but whats the relevance of your story? it still hinges upon a metaphor being applicable to the situation being argued.


And even then, if tonal music just isn't working, there's always percussion. Tone-deaf people tend to still have good rhythm even if they can't "carry the tune"...

do they really? news to me, got any proof, or should we consider that hearsay? even if you've got proof, any significance the metaphor may have to the subject falls to pieces here, because even on the off chance that tone-deaf people still tend to have good rhythm, that doesnt make this applicable to magic because its a specific habit, a specific circumstance that is specific to the metaphor itself.


Personally, I think that if you are looking at only one or only a few systems of magic or manipulating energy, then yes, some people will just be incapable of doing it, and some will naturally have that bent, while people in between need training. But if you look at the vast array of ways to do magic, then it seems to me that if a person is dedicated enough, they will eventually find something that fits with them. ^_^

for one thing, we're talking witchcraft. therefore, by your own reasoning, some people can be witches and some cannot (using the term in a non-anthropological context). for another, simply because there are many ways of doing something, that does not mean that the thing can be done by anyone if only they find a way.


And people often don't realize that even though you may not see it or feel the energy/magic, that doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means that you need to be very careful and deliberate. ^_^

but thats beside the point. if you cant see or feel energy/magic, then sure, you may still be able to manipulate it. but if you cant see or feel or manipulate energy/magic, then you cant see or feel or manipulate energy/magic. we're not arguing that the inability to see or feel energy/magic makes one unable to manipulate it, we're arguing that the inability to manipulate energy/magic exists in some people, therefore making some people unable to manipulate energy/magic and thereby making some people unable to be witches. (i would go further, but it would require semantic argument, which, though being the only constructive type of argument, is mostly disliked.)

[Dragonladyofwater]

hmm as I read through this I am stuck wondering why it is that there is an expectation every witch should be good at all the same things in order to be called witch? It's an unreal and unattainable expectation.

Let's say as an example you have a natural witch who can manipulate energies very well yet she doesn't know squat about herbs, stones, history, divination, or ritual.

Next to her you have another witch who knows all these things but when it comes to energy manipulations she has to really work at it.

Which one is a witch? I think they both are. Even though they are very different.

And these two witches from above, I know them both. The latter one will make every natural witch she comes into contact feel like she can never be a witch just to cover up for her own insecurities. The natural witch does the exact same thing to those who aren't natural witches to cover for her lack of knowledge.

The line of thinking that says you have to be born to do this sets others up for failure which I find to be really unfair and I think it also creates rifts in areas we should be working to unify instead of alienate.

[Dawa Lhamo]

you could also say that doing magic is like singing. in that case, you can be as technically brilliant as you like, if the natural tone of your voice is horrible, then you'll never be a good singer. thus negating your entire point. so who's right, is doing magic like singing or like making music? trying to argue a point by using a metaphor is a huge mistake (scroll down for another reason as to why this is so)Ok, well, my point was that there are many different systems of magic and many different ways of doing it, so even if someone is unable to do one, they can still keep trying other ways, and perhaps (like music) there is a way for them to make magic. My metaphor was in response to the piano metaphor. Not everyone can play piano, no, but everyone can make music. So, the point to argue then, is whether magic is as specific a tool as piano or if it's as broad a field as music. I believe that it's a broad field with many ways, as evidenced by the enormous variance just on this English-speaking board. ^_^
and perhaps its not. perhaps magic is like all of music, cooking is like all of visual art, woodwork is like all of dance etc. perhaps being alive is like being able to use magic and perhaps being dead is like being unable to use magic. in which case, seeing as some people are obviously dead and some people are obviously alive, some people are obviously able to use magic and others obviously arent. my metaphor is just as valid as yours i.e. both are equally useless for arguing a point. its about as useful as saying that its your personal opinion that something you have never seen is slightly less blue than something else you have never seen.If you'll notice, I was responding to another metaphor in the first place. Perhaps because my metaphor tries to explain something different than what you believe, you pick mine apart, but not the original? Is this what you're trying to do? If my metaphor is invalid, so is the piano metaphor... so where does that leave us? Have we gotten anywhere? I still think that just because a person cannot do one or even several types of magic, that doesn't mean they're automatically mundane. Now, if you are speaking in the context of a closed culture, where there are only one or two types of magic in that society, such as the witch-doctor example, then of course some people can do it and some people can't. But in this society I live in, I have access to cultures and systems of magic from around the world and the possibility that I, even if I can't do the magic from my region, can find a kind of magical system that works for me is still there... the possibility exists. At some point, sure, one might get exhausted from trying, but personally, I think if they Will to practice magic, then there is some type of magic out there that they can practice...
its good to hear that you werent discouraged by your failures, but whats the relevance of your story? it still hinges upon a metaphor being applicable to the situation being argued.Of course. And I would argue that my metaphor is more applicable because there are many ways to make music rather than playing one instrument... just as there are many systems of magic The point isn't to say, oh, this metaphor makes sense, so therefore she must be right about everything... that's not what I'm saying at all... I was presenting a counter-metaphor to the original metaphor, so that people could critically think about which points really were applicable, and come to their own conclusions... Perhaps you think I'm overestimating people's intelligence here by assuming that they'd approach my metaphor critically?

I only came up with it to counter the first metaphor, not to make an absolute statement... If you say, "oh, well I think life is like a tree", I can reply, "well, I see it more like a forest because..." We aren't actually defining life, we are expressing our viewpoints as to the qualities that life has. My counter metaphor doesn't mean that all things about a forest also apply to life or that no other metaphors work.

I was just trying to introduce a different way of thinking about magic. Therefore, if magic is like music, with different paths for different people, then even though one way might be a failure, the next might be the right fit... Notice the IF... I'm not saying accept this as gospel, I'm saying, "hey, what if you think about it this way?" Which is exactly the purpose of using a metaphor in the first place.

You seem to think I've fallen in love with my metaphor, and perhaps I did let it go on too long without tying it back to my point, but I am perfectly aware of what is and isn't metaphor, I assure you. Thanks for your concern, but I don't believe it's needed.


do they really? news to me, got any proof, or should we consider that hearsay? even if you've got proof, any significance the metaphor may have to the subject falls to pieces here, because even on the off chance that tone-deaf people still tend to have good rhythm, that doesnt make this applicable to magic because its a specific habit, a specific circumstance that is specific to the metaphor itself.You know, it gets really frustrating when one has to qualify everything one says with "In my experience" or "in my opinion"... as several other people have stated on this board over the years, when someone posts something, one can safely assume that they are speaking from their own experience and with their own opinion... So, I'd like for you to please assume that when I say tone deaf people tend to still have good rhythm, I'm speaking from my experience. I've had several years playing and teaching music, and from what I've seen, yes, tone deaf people still tend to have good rhythm. I expect everyone to take what I say with a grain of salt, as I take everything everyone else says with a grain of salt. The point of that was that IF tone-deaf people (in response to the piano metaphor) can still make music in general, and IF my metaphor about music is more applicable than the piano one, THEN apparently "incapable" people MAY still be able to make magic, IF they can find a system to suit them. I'm sorry that I expect people to analyze what I say... I guess that liberal arts education is really screwing me over. (And if I ever state what I perceive as fact, you can be assured that I'll post references.) I'm not saying that everything matches up exactly, I'm saying that my counter-metaphor has points that counter the original metaphor and I expect whoever reads my post to figure out what points they agree with and what they don't.
for one thing, we're talking witchcraft. therefore, by your own reasoning, some people can be witches and some cannot (using the term in a non-anthropological context). for another, simply because there are many ways of doing something, that does not mean that the thing can be done by anyone if only they find a way.Both of these statements are true. Perhaps I've been blind in equating people who do magic as witches... that point I can agree with you. Since the term witch is culture-specific, automatically only some people can be witches.. however, if you take the "equivalent" of "witch" in other cultures, then perhaps everyone can achieve the same results, if by different methods... It's true, perhaps that you could not call them "witches", then, except if you are an anthropologist. ^_^

And I'm aware that simply because there are many ways of doing something, not necessarily everyone can do that thing if they "only find a way"... However the likelihood that there is a way for them to do this is quite increased... It seems common sense to me... If you have only two ways of doing something, then only certain people can do it, but if you have several thousand ways, then you have a much greater likelihood that any given person will find a way to do it. There still might be exceptions, and I allowed for that in my first post.
but thats beside the point. if you cant see or feel energy/magic, then sure, you may still be able to manipulate it. but if you cant see or feel or manipulate energy/magic, then you cant see or feel or manipulate energy/magic. we're not arguing that the inability to see or feel energy/magic makes one unable to manipulate it, we're arguing that the inability to manipulate energy/magic exists in some people, therefore making some people unable to manipulate energy/magic and thereby making some people unable to be witches. (i would go further, but it would require semantic argument, which, though being the only constructive type of argument, is mostly dislikedIt wasn't necessarily meant to fit in the point but peripherally... Peripherally it's saying that even without any outward indication, such as seeing or feeling magic, some people can still do it relatively easily, so we shouldn't necessarily dismiss all people without outward indication of ability to do magic. Not that they're necessarily able to do it, but that they shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand... This statement wasn't in response to anything in particular, just a point that I thought ought to be noted.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Dawa Lhamo]

And these two witches from above, I know them both. The latter one will make every natural witch she comes into contact feel like she can never be a witch just to cover up for her own insecurities. The natural witch does the exact same thing to those who aren't natural witches to cover for her lack of knowledge.

The line of thinking that says you have to be born to do this sets others up for failure which I find to be really unfair and I think it also creates rifts in areas we should be working to unify instead of alienate.lol... I've definitely seen this. Even if they don't verbalize it, that competitive air is still there... Even if neither of them consciously realizes it. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[RubyRose]

Forgive me, but don't you have to have some sort of believe in Paganism/Witchcraft before deciding you want to be a witch. I mean you can learn everything, but its still only theory and words, if it doesn't have meaning then its mostly useless. Right?

[Dawa Lhamo]

Forgive me, but don't you have to have some sort of believe in Paganism/Witchcraft before deciding you want to be a witch. I mean you can learn everything, but its still only theory and words, if it doesn't have meaning then its mostly useless. Right? I'm not sure what you're getting at, RubyRose, can you explain it another way, perhaps?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Temptation]

To me magic is as natural as breathing. I was raised with witchcraft, it runs in the family. My grandmother's favorite saying on the subject was "We've all got the gift. Some have just forgotten to open it; some have tossed it in a corner unopened and some are trying too hard to open it." She believed that the reason magic works is precisely because we're all "natural witches". She was the best healer I know but she often said that she was just "helping people" heal themselves.

I think she was right on all counts. Those people who try too hard are the ones who seem to have no "talent" for it. But that's not the case, because we all have the "talent", it's just that they're going about it the wrong way.

[Sage Rainsong]

But isn't it cruel to lead someone on. If you're teaching someone, it's implies that there is something there for them. They soon grow frustrated and would leave in a greater fuss then someone who you were frank with.

The truth is that if this person is really hell bent on being a witch and you tell them that they suck at it; they may just get pissed and find someone else to teach them. Besides are you the supreme ruler and all knowing expert on all forms of witchcraft? How do you know that they really can't be a witch and it not just your techniques that they can't grasp? Maybe they are just not meant to be in your little elitist blue blood clan of witches.

[Kendrah]

The truth is that if this person is really hell bent on being a witch and you tell them that they suck at it; they may just get pissed and find someone else to teach them. Besides are you the supreme ruler and all knowing expert on all forms of witchcraft? How do you know that they really can't be a witch and it not just your techniques that they can't grasp? Maybe they are just not meant to be in your little elitist blue blood clan of witches.

Elistist blue blood clan of witches? LOL. You're funny. Did I say I was the supreme ruler and when did I learn all forms of witchcraft? What special techniques would I have?

People who can't sing are told that. If you can't draw and you go to school for drawing, your teacher will sit you down and tell it to your face. I know, it happened to me. Did I take offense? No. I have no talent in drawing, in any of the forms. I tried my damnest. Didn't take any difference.

So why is it that you can tell someone they can't sing, they can't draw, they can't program on the computer, or any number of other things, but you can't say that about a witch? Why is witchcraft different from any other craft out there in the world? This is my question.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Maybe they are just not meant to be in your little elitist blue blood clan of witches. I agree with your other sentiments, but please be nice. ^_^ Actually, elitist isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you've found some people of a good degree of skill and knowledge and are exclusive with that, then it's perfectly fine. One can even say, well, only certain people can be *our kind* of witch. However when one starts applying these rules outside of one's tradition and claiming that only their kind are true witches, well, they should expect the other witches, born and made, to laugh at them. Not that that's what this thread is trying to do, just a general statement. Even if the original poster is in one of those kinds of groups, she was appealing outside to see how other witches felt... That doesn't see elitist or stand-off-ish to me. eh...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Kendrah]

The "good blue blood" is a metaphor. Only that. Such as someone might say that one has music running through their veins. It's funny how it suddenly becomes elistist.

And to clarify further, I'm not meaning wicca, or any religious aspect thereof. I'm saying witch as one who can change the world. One who can manipulate energy, through whatever means. One that has some ability with the sight (seeing, hearing, feelings, smelling, whatever.) And such Anyone can be Wiccan. I'm not contesting that.

I'm guessing, though, that it all comes down to personal semantics as to what is what.

[Sleet]

But that's not the case, because we all have the "talent", it's just that they're going about it the wrong way.

Allow me to present an alternative view from a guy without a magical bone in his body...

Ever drop a brick onto muddy ground? Know the sound it made? That sound - a wet, dull, muffled *thud* - is a pretty good metaphor for my own early, clumsy attempts at any sort of magic at all. I really don't think it was a matter of me doing it wrong, I really just didn't have it. I have about as much magical ability, sixth sense, and energy talent as a box of rocks.

Which is fine, we're not all given the same talents. It's be a boring world if we were.

Edit: Does this extend to me believing in "natural witches"? I dunno, probably not, at least not more than folks having a bit of natural inclination toward certain things over others.

[RubyRose]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, RubyRose, can you explain it another way, perhaps?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

I'll give it a shot.

Okay, saying your a witch or that you practice witchcraft or paganism, may all be well and good, but if you don't believe in what witchcraft or paganism stand for then its useless.
Having a talent for Witchcraft ...!? I'm sorry but I don't know how that works. Sure you could be skilled in tarot reading or runes or what have you, but first you have to learn the technique. Learning something takes time and practice. Once you've learnt the basics, well anything is possible, and then its merely about perfecting the skill.

Saying things like, 'oh your a natural witch' to me only means you've got talent. Which simply boils down to the fact that you're either a fast learner, or you've had lost of practice.

Okay, I could ramble on further but I'll probably only aid in confusing myself and others, if I haven't done that already.

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Dio]

Elistist blue blood clan of witches? LOL. You're funny. Did I say I was the supreme ruler and when did I learn all forms of witchcraft? What special techniques would I have?

People who can't sing are told that. If you can't draw and you go to school for drawing, your teacher will sit you down and tell it to your face. I know, it happened to me. Did I take offense? No. I have no talent in drawing, in any of the forms. I tried my damnest. Didn't take any difference.

So why is it that you can tell someone they can't sing, they can't draw, they can't program on the computer, or any number of other things, but you can't say that about a witch? Why is witchcraft different from any other craft out there in the world? This is my question.

I don't think you should tell anyone they can't do something....for any reason. People are usually smart enough to figure out on their own than they are unable to do certain things. It is irresponsible as a teacher to tell someone they can't.

[Kendrah]

Having a talent for Witchcraft ...!? I'm sorry but I don't know how that works. Sure you could be skilled in tarot reading or runes or what have you, but first you have to learn the technique. Learning something takes time and practice. Once you've learnt the basics, well anything is possible, and then its merely about perfecting the skill.

Saying things like, 'oh your a natural witch' to me only means you've got talent. Which simply boils down to the fact that you're either a fast learner, or you've had lost of practice.


I don't mean natural in the sense of being born with an athame. I mean natural as having some sort of ability. Even if you have to practice for years to feel energy, if you finally feel the energy, you're natural. It wouldn't've happened otherwise.

If you can't pick up even the basics, what does that make you? Are you still a witch?

[Kendrah]

I don't think you should tell anyone they can't do something....for any reason. People are usually smart enough to figure out on their own than they are unable to do certain things. It is irresponsible as a teacher to tell someone they can't.

Personally, I'm tossed. I think it's cruel to lead someone on, yet I don't think it's trully possible to tell someone what they are or not. *shrugs* But it makes for a good discussion. ^___^

Evil Kendrah. :devil:

[Sage Rainsong]

Well Im glad that I gave you a good life with my silly misinterpretation of your words. Anyway you yourself described your tradition as blue blood and blue blood is elitest by definition. So I am only using your own words .also there are more than one forms of witchcraft so maybe they simply don't belong in your little group . Furthermore my point about you claming to be all knowing, in case it escaped you, is that you may not know what they can or can't achieve. Thats all Besides, Albert Einstein was thought to be stupid and he clearly wasn't.

[Kendrah]

You're not using my words when you stick Elistist on there. I said nothing about being an elistist. I never said that all forms of witchcraft belong to my group. I don't know everything, nor did it escape me what you implied - it just wasn't worth commenting on. And how many Albert Einsteins are floating around the world? Just one to my knowledge...

All I am asking is that if someone cannot grasp the basic's of witchcraft, the foundation blocks that most things build upon, can they still be called a witch. This is all...

[Temptation]

Allow me to present an alternative view from a guy without a magical bone in his body...

Well, I'm sure you've got at least one...;)


Ever drop a brick onto muddy ground? Know the sound it made? That sound - a wet, dull, muffled *thud* - is a pretty good metaphor for my own early, clumsy attempts at any sort of magic at all. I really don't think it was a matter of me doing it wrong, I really just didn't have it. I have about as much magical ability, sixth sense, and energy talent as a box of rocks.


So you opened the gift and were a little overwhelmed by the contents. It doesn't mean you don't have it in you. It's in there somewhere. There's another thing my grandmother used to say that I have found to be very true "Men have a much harder time finding where the gift is hidden." ;)

[Sage Rainsong]

Okay so I added elitist but blue blood is a burgeious group who are different and think themselves better than others. Anyway lets not mince words. I do not think that learning magic is like a musical instrument. Witchcraft is spiritual practice. it is not tangable like a painting or a piano. I believe exactly what temptation says about it being within everyone they just may have forgotten or it under psycological baggage. is other . I think that people who see it a a special talent are perhaps just making themselves feel special. Okay I suppose I have to explain my point more about Einstein. The so called experts (teachers) thought him stupid and he became arguablly the best known scientist ever. Maybe the person will become one of the best energy manipulators ever despite what the experts ("natural witches") say. Or to put it bluntly in case I haven't explained myself again. who do you think you are? Who gave you god like powers to determine whether or not they will ever be good at witchcraft? How do you know? The fact is that you don't and since you don't, you cannot discourage them only encourage them. If you are so irrated because they are not advancing fast enough for you then maybe you should find them another teacher for them.

[halfwaynowhere]

i think if you are teaching someone, and no matter what you do they still aren't getting it, than they should find a new teacher. I don't mean for this to sound like you are a bad teacgher or anything, i just mean that maybe someone else has a different method that may work better for this person. there is no reason why a person shouldn't be able to do something, they just have to take the right approach for them. take math, for example. I am no mathematician, I get really lost in math class, I don't understand how most things are done. but one of my peers explains it to me in a new light, they teach me a different method of doing a problem, and all of a sudden it clicks, and it feels right. and while my math teacher may be getting through to most of the class, my mind works differently, so i need a different method. just remember, everybody is different, and yes, i do think some people are more talented at things than others, but lacking talent is just another challenge to face.

[Sleet]

Well, I'm sure you've got at least one...;)

Hey, settle down. ;)


So you opened the gift and were a little overwhelmed by the contents. It doesn't mean you don't have it in you. It's in there somewhere.

No, it was more a matter of I opened it and found nothing. Is it possible that I could learn with a lot of training and practice? Possibly, but I think it's in the same sense I could learn to pole vault - In theory maybe, yes, I could learn the mechanical motions of pole vaulting, but I'd never clear three meters.

But like I said, that's OK. Spell work has never been part of my spirituality, and I feel no deprivation because of it. Psychologically I'm much more of an observer than an imposer. We all have our talents.

[RubyRose]

I don't mean natural in the sense of being born with an athame. I mean natural as having some sort of ability. Even if you have to practice for years to feel energy, if you finally feel the energy, you're natural. It wouldn't've happened otherwise.

If you can't pick up even the basics, what does that make you? Are you still a witch?

But natural when referring to a witch, to me means you have an inate ability, so wouldn't that mean you wouldn't have to learn anything? Its already inbuilt ... or something.

I could be contradicting myself, but then the brain is a weird and wonderous thing.

As for picking up the basics, if you commit something to memory, its always there.

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Pandoras]

I think part of the problem here lies in the meaning of witchcraft. What exactly are the basics of witchcraft? What makes a witch? What are the tools of the witch? Herbs? Tarot? Runes? Gems and stones? What are the abilities of the witch? Healing? Clairvoyance? Communication with spirits?

I think that everyone has the natural ability to be a witch, but some people are going to be better at some tasks. For instance, I'm good with tarot, but lousy with runes. And no matter how hard I try, I'll never be good at any form of math higher than basic algebra.

[Scheherazade's Muse]

I agree with Pandoras. IMHO, I dislike the term "natural witch" because it instantly makes the user seem "better" than anyone else. However, witchcraft isn't a straight line because it can be different for everybody. What I believe witchcraft to be, and the areas I'm most fluent in, may not be the same as your's. Thus defining witchcraft as something somebody is talented in is impossible because it's too varied.

[teishabee]

I see witchcraft in its basic terms as working with magic. Which I see magic as nature.

So anyone who has an efffinity with nature, would be a natural witch but I could conteract that arguement because we are all part of that nature. So basically we all have access to magic. :smile:

[acorn elf]

I think everyone is good at different areas of magic. For example it seems like some people who may not be very good psychics are very good with herbs and remedies, just different. I don't really know--if someone just can't do magic I think it could be because they are holding themselves back by their beliefs as well.

[SilentDreams]

(To further your piano metaphor)

I believe that anyone can be a witch. While there are those who are naturally better at manipulating energy, anyone can do it with enough practice. Just as anyone can learn to play the piano with practice

Exactly!