Asatru, Norse plus using celtic ?

[Hærfest Leah]

Maybe someone can draw me a picture here, I am hugely drawn to practicing a path from my ancestry so that puts me at Heathenry mainly Asatru is what interests me. I'm mostly Belgian & German with lesser English and even lesser Irish. I have been going in circles on Wikipedia.org on this topic because it all relates to oneanother which is basically discussed in this excellent thread by Nantonos.

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=65943&highlight=celtic+norse (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=65943&highlight=celtic+norse)

Now when it comes to mixing pantheons I read if they were already interacting with oneanother then your not offending anyone. So if I'm practicing Asatru and obviously using Norse deities then what about incorporating or atleast acknowledging Celtic deities? I want to make sure I'm covering all ancestors? SInce it seems like the ancestors themselves were one in the same.

Does anyone do this?

[KellyP]

I think there were plenty of places where the Germanic and Celtic cultures overlapped historically. The boundaries were not black-and-white areas as one thinks of them drawn on a map. So it is very possible that some of your ancestors may have actually had a mixture of beliefs. Also, we know Angles, Saxons and Nords all settled parts of the English Isles.

With that said, if you choose to use both pantheons, why not alternate them in your rituals. Possibly honor the Norse on the solstices and equinoxes and the Celts on the cross quarters. Your ancestors will be the same in any way you choose to honor them.

[Morr]

Celto-Germanic Eclectic Reconstructionist -- By definition this entire path is an oxymoron in a way. I'm not saying its wrong, but maybe titling it this way isnt the way to go.

Celts arent German.
Eclectic opposes Reconstructionism.

Eclectic picks from various paths and traditions while Reconstructionism sticks to one defined culture/tradition/path/history/mythology.

German Gods are different than the Celtic Gods.
Moreover, there are different Celtic Pantheons.

If youre on an Eclectic path, sure why not mix pantheons and work with the Gods that call you, regardless of their origin? If youre on a Reconstructionist path, one tends to stick to the Pantheon of Gods this path belongs to. Sure, one may honor other Gods outside of the specific Pantheon. However, the devotion and worship remains 100% to the Gods of your chosen Reconstructionist path.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rick]

Hmm... I think one should acknowledge & honor all of one's Ancestors; I also think one should try to follow a single path... I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive. I think one can be true to one's chosen Gods while also honoring one's Ancestors that might not have followed those Gods. I often open rites with something like "Hail the Gods of Our Ancestors", thereby acknowledging & honoring the Gods of everyone present. I don't see this as practicing eclecticism, I see it as being respectful.

[Hærfest Leah]

Hmm... I think one should acknowledge & honor all of one's Ancestors; I also think one should try to follow a single path... I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive. I think one can be true to one's chosen Gods while also honoring one's Ancestors that might not have followed those Gods. I often open rites with something like "Hail the Gods of Our Ancestors", thereby acknowledging & honoring the Gods of everyone present. I don't see this as practicing eclecticism, I see it as being respectful.


A while ago it hit me, who cares! And what hit me is basically what you just said. That doesn't mean I'd be leaving anyone out, just include them in the 1st place no matter whom they may have followed. DUH _inabox_

I think I may belong to that group of people who can occasionally make things more complicated than they are. :lol:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'd have to say the same sort of thing as Rick. I absolutely follow a Gaelic path. The gods I worship are Gaelic gods. However, I still honor the gods of others of my ancestors, some a little more than others (such as my Cherokee and Cree ancestors) along with the gods of place. Now, the difference between Rick and I is that I usually don't include my honoring of them in the same rituals. I honor them at a seperate time entirely.

[Rick]

Now, the difference between Rick and I is that I usually don't include my honoring of them in the same rituals. I honor them at a seperate time entirely.
I mostly do it to save time... :hehehehe:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That's a good plan. I wonder why I didn't think of that before. That means less time I have to hear "Mama, Mama, Mama, bubble, bubble, bubble" whilst trying to honor them. :hehehe:

[Turan]

Hmm... I think one should acknowledge & honor all of one's Ancestors; I also think one should try to follow a single path... I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive. I think one can be true to one's chosen Gods while also honoring one's Ancestors that might not have followed those Gods. I often open rites with something like "Hail the Gods of Our Ancestors", thereby acknowledging & honoring the Gods of everyone present. I don't see this as practicing eclecticism, I see it as being respectful.

Ooh, I like that! I work with the Etruscan Gods, but am an odd combination of Italian/Bavarian/Swedish. Since the two branches of my family are from both Northern *and* Southern Europe, it's nice to know that I can incorporate *all* of them in this way, even though I feel mostly drawn to Central and Northern Italy. Thanks for the idea, Rick!

[Rick]

I do what I can... :smile:

[DragonMom]

That's a good plan. I wonder why I didn't think of that before. That means less time I have to hear "Mama, Mama, Mama, bubble, bubble, bubble" whilst trying to honor them. :hehehe:

Ok I gotta ask.... huh??? :hehehehe:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

My 2 year old son..."mama, mama, mama....bubble, bubble, bubble..." Since I have to honor the land spirits outside (ancestral offerings are left indoors at an ancestor shrine), and I can't go outside without him (that would be akin to abuse for the poor thing), he will start begging for bubbles whilst I'm leaving out offerings.

[DragonMom]

lol That's so cute! My daughter's 7, but I'm a wimp when it comes to heat so we usually practice indoors. :bigredblu

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

I have sort of mixed the religions myself. I honor the Norse deities, yet I am not Asatru. Asatru supposedly cannot practice Magic, and I need to practice Magic in order to be fulfilled in my path. I already know the Gods do not mind, so I figure why not.

[Gyda]

I have sort of mixed the religions myself. I honor the Norse deities, yet I am not Asatru. Asatru supposedly cannot practice Magic, and I need to practice Magic in order to be fulfilled in my path. I already know the Gods do not mind, so I figure why not.

who told you that? I know many who do, myself being one, folk magic mind you but there's nothing in Asatru/Heatherny that says we can't pratice magic.

Gyda

[mothwench]

Maybe someone can draw me a picture here, I am hugely drawn to practicing a path from my ancestry so that puts me at Heathenry mainly Asatru is what interests me. I'm mostly Belgian & German with lesser English and even lesser Irish.:smile: you sound alot like me, i'm all sorts of things too. i'm english, german, slightly scottish, and even more slightly irish and belgian.
I have been going in circles on Wikipedia.org on this topic because it all relates to oneanother which is basically discussed in this excellent thread by Nantonos.

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=65943&highlight=celtic+norse (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=65943&highlight=celtic+norse)
yes, that is an excellent thread.


Now when it comes to mixing pantheons I read if they were already interacting with oneanother then your not offending anyone.
even if they never interacted i see no problem with it. what if you were say... half asian/half english? would you say that honoring both cultures, ancestors, and pantheons would be wrong?
So if I'm practicing Asatru and obviously using Norse deities then what about incorporating or atleast acknowledging Celtic deities? I want to make sure I'm covering all ancestors? SInce it seems like the ancestors themselves were one in the same.
i don't see any problems here, as long as you keep the cultures seperate in your studies, worship and ritual.

Does anyone do this?[/QUOTE]

yes, i do. and i call it... *drumroll* ancestral reconstructionism. :abanana:

the thing about reconstructionism, though, which you've probably heard, is that it's very study-intensive. so, the basic learning phase of my path of two cultures will take twice as long as any other reconstructionists learning phase, three times as long if i were to draw from three cultures, etc.
i don't see myself engaging in any sort of ritual activity (besides the occasional offering to the local land spirits) for the next 5 or so years. at the very least, it may even take longer.

[Mjollnir]

I have sort of mixed the religions myself. I honor the Norse deities, yet I am not Asatru. Asatru supposedly cannot practice Magic, and I need to practice Magic in order to be fulfilled in my path. I already know the Gods do not mind, so I figure why not.


There are plenty of Asatru who do seidh work.

[Rick]

:smile: There a lot more that do galdr.

[Hærfest Leah]

:smile: There a lot more that do galdr.

Ok you know I'm gona ask this one, Galdr?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

yes, i do. and i call it... *drumroll* ancestral reconstructionism. :abanana:

the thing about reconstructionism, though, which you've probably heard, is that it's very study-intensive. so, the basic learning phase of my path of two cultures will take twice as long as any other reconstructionists learning phase, three times as long if i were to draw from three cultures, etc.
i don't see myself engaging in any sort of ritual activity (besides the occasional offering to the local land spirits) for the next 5 or so years. at the very least, it may even take longer.

Ohhhh, you changed the name. I like this one better. :clapping:

[Rick]

Ok you know I'm gona ask this one, Galdr?
:smile: Galdr basically means magic... in a nutshell, it's an aspect of rune magic that involves singing/chanting/speaking the phonetic sound associated with a given rune to invoke the magical energy specific to that rune.

[mothwench]

i thought galdr meant something along the lines of "song". :huh:

[Gyda]

then there is also Spæ as well.

Gyda

[Rick]

i thought galdr meant something along the lines of "song". :huh:
Yep... see the connection?

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

I have heard from quite a few places that Asatru can't do Magic the Wiccan way as it supposedly shows signs of laziness. I don't like that idea and I know that the gods don't view it that way either. I know about divination and such with the runes but thats the extent of Asatruar Magical practice. I personally did not understand this, and I'm glad I am not the only Heathen who practices Magic in this way.

Anybody ever read Freya Aswynn's stuff? I'm now reading one of her books that I acquired recently and I am enthralled with it. She mentions quite a bit about Magic with the runes, so I guess those people who told me that other shit were liars.

As far as to where I heard that no Magic Asatru rule, most of it was from websites by Asatru kindreds and other practicioners of the religion. I saw it so many times that I figured it was true. Sorry, but I no longer have those sites on my favorites list so I can't list them.

[mothwench]

I have heard from quite a few places that Asatru can't do Magic the Wiccan way as it supposedly shows signs of laziness. I don't like that idea and I know that the gods don't view it that way either. I know about divination and such with the runes but thats the extent of Asatruar Magical practice. I personally did not understand this, and I'm glad I am not the only Heathen who practices Magic in this way.
personnally i believe that true magic is not found in a spellbook, book of shadows or any website, for that matter. magic should be intuitive, and spontaneous, not schemed and written out like a recipe. now, i don't know if that's the general idea of most asatruars, but it's what i believe, and i call myself one (partly, at least) and as for the runes, i think that while there is quite alot about magical practises in the lore, there is also this warning bit about using runes without knowing enough about them. and because of the great dischord about the topic, even among "scholors" i think it might be near impossible to ever know enough about them.
i will look for the passage i'm talking about and then post it here.


Anybody ever read Freya Aswynn's stuff? I'm now reading one of her books that I acquired recently and I am enthralled with it. She mentions quite a bit about Magic with the runes, so I guess those people who told me that other shit were liars.
you're kidding, right? what "other shit" you might have been told that makes freyja aswynn look like an educated mentor in this field is way beyond my imagination... unless you were reading ralph blum.


As far as to where I heard that no Magic Asatru rule, most of it was from websites by Asatru kindreds and other practicioners of the religion. I saw it so many times that I figured it was true. Sorry, but I no longer have those sites on my favorites list so I can't list them.
that's a shame, it would be interesting to find out what groups have these credes. :fpeace:

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

Whats wrong with Aswynn?

The first 'Asatru' book I read was by Ed Fitch. He's not very well respected by many Asatruar. I knew why after I read his book 'The Rites of Odin'.

[Mjollnir]

Whats wrong with Aswynn?

The first 'Asatru' book I read was by Ed Fitch. He's not very well respected by many Asatruar. I knew why after I read his book 'The Rites of Odin'.


She likes to make stuff up..............

http://www.northvegr.org/reviews/northern.php (http://www.northvegr.org/reviews/northern.php)

[mothwench]

those books are, hmmm, how do i put it... other people's interpretation of a topic that can be interpreted in very many ways. they are somebody elses gnosis. if you read what little real information there is about the runes and their meanings, (the old norse, icelandic and old-english rune poems, the final stanzas of the havamal, and a couple of scattered references to their uses in the eddas) then you'll be asking yourself how they ever came to these interpretations. i'm not saying their interpretations are wrong, what i mean is, i just think that these authors are giving the wrong impression about where their knowledge comes from. i find it pretentious of freyja aswynn to state in her book that the name "england" comes from ing, a name for freyr, without even so much as consulting an etymological dictionary.

in my opinion, a good rune book should consist of nothing more than the quotes from the lore that correspond to them, and maybe tips on how to meditate and bond with them, a practical part about making them, with a reference to tacitus, along with the disclaimer (much missed in ALL the rune books i have ever read) that says it isn't proven that it's actually runes tacitus talks about here. he mentions a branch of a fruit bearing tree marked with symbols. so as far as we can tell, the symbols tacitus talks about might be runes... and they might not be.

these are just a few examples of what bugs me about those books.


oh, by the way, i just thought of a reference to magic using NO runes... just google "merseburg charm". and tacitus, who i mentioned before, wrote something about divination by watching the flight patterns of certain birds and listening to the snorting and neighing of sacred horses.

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

Hmmm, I see your point. But after reading Fitchs book, then hearing that his book was crap from other Pagans, then being told Aswynn was the best, then finding out shes a shady figure.....it all gets to be so distressing. All the Pagan books I own are from supposedly bad authors. Scott Cunningham, DJ Conway, Silver Ravenwolf, Ed Fitch, Aswynn....I don't know who to trust, really.

I originally felt the divinity in Nature before I ever even knew what Paganism was, way back when I was a kid. Perhaps its best to truly let nature be the primary guide, and not just leave it to books and shady authors. Sure they all have at least something to teach, but they cannot be relied on any more than any other human being.

Thanks to you both, Mothwench and Mjolnir, :hugz: for the info. This was somewhat upsetting to me, but its a neccesary part of improving my spirituality.

I'm going to go out into the woods close to my house now and observe and meditate for a while. Thats where the heart of all Pagansim is anyways, right?

[Mjollnir]

Hmmm, I see your point. But after reading Fitchs book, then hearing that his book was crap from other Pagans, then being told Aswynn was the best, then finding out shes a shady figure.....it all gets to be so distressing. All the Pagan books I own are from supposedly bad authors. Scott Cunningham, DJ Conway, Silver Ravenwolf, Ed Fitch, Aswynn....I don't know who to trust, really.

I originally felt the divinity in Nature before I ever even knew what Paganism was, way back when I was a kid. Perhaps its best to truly let nature be the primary guide, and not just leave it to books and shady authors. Sure they all have at least something to teach, but they cannot be relied on any more than any other human being.

Thanks to you both, Mothwench and Mjolnir, :hugz: for the info. This was somewhat upsetting to me, but its a neccesary part of improving my spirituality.

I'm going to go out into the woods close to my house now and observe and meditate for a while. Thats where the heart of all Pagansim is anyways, right?


Ok Aeres, lets narrow this down, what exactly is it you are looking for and I'll see if I can assist you.

[mothwench]

Hmmm, I see your point. But after reading Fitchs book, then hearing that his book was crap from other Pagans, then being told Aswynn was the best, then finding out shes a shady figure.....it all gets to be so distressing.
yes, distressing it is. but it's also just the way it is, it's the course of the path. i don't think we'll ever stop learning.
All the Pagan books I own are from supposedly bad authors. again, that's normal, cause those authors are unfortunately also the most propagated ones and the first to show up on most pagan book lists.
Scott Cunningham, DJ Conway, Silver Ravenwolf, Ed Fitch, Aswynn....I don't know who to trust, really.
well, what i do is i try to steer well clear of any authors that openly declare themselves pagan. there's plenty of books on various aspects of paganism without actually being "pagan books", kwim?

I originally felt the divinity in Nature before I ever even knew what Paganism was, way back when I was a kid. Perhaps its best to truly let nature be the primary guide, and not just leave it to books and shady authors.
my opinion on this: yes and no... nature is good, books are good. shady authors are bad. it's not that hard to find out what they're about, just read reviews of other people who have read them. a good review of a good book will state that the author has given references to back up his/her claims. because this is what scholors want to know before they buy a book, so that they don't have to add to their dusty collection of accumulated cunninghams, conways and aswynns. but to help you along a little, here's an amazon book-list that i find invaluable: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/142TSKWFMTHC2/102-5436951-2272158 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/142TSKWFMTHC2//ref=nosim/mysticwickson-20)

Sure they all have at least something to teach, but they cannot be relied on any more than any other human being.
exactly. :uhhuhuh: so it's not worth spending money on them, you could learn just as much for free by talking about it to your next-door neighbor.


Thanks to you both, Mothwench and Mjolnir, :hugz: for the info. This was somewhat upsetting to me, but its a neccesary part of improving my spirituality.
sorry about the upsetting part. but we've all been there. :hugz: and, may i say, that very few deal with it in such a mature manner. don't think i did... :lol:

[Hærfest Leah]

yes, i do. and i call it... *drumroll* ancestral reconstructionism. :abanana:

the thing about reconstructionism, though, which you've probably heard, is that it's very study-intensive. so, the basic learning phase of my path of two cultures will take twice as long as any other reconstructionists learning phase, three times as long if i were to draw from three cultures, etc.
i don't see myself engaging in any sort of ritual activity (besides the occasional offering to the local land spirits) for the next 5 or so years. at the very least, it may even take longer.

I was reading over this thread last night (reviewing I guess) and the more I read your title "ancestral reconstructionism" the more I love it. I'm going to learn as much as I can about both cultures, the Celts & Norse but when it comes to deity it's Norse all the way.

[mothwench]

:kooky: wow, i'm chuffed! i might start a thread about my path after all, some day... :hmmmmm:
sorry this reply is a little late, i was ill these last few days and couldn't get on my computer.

[Nantonos]

Celto-Germanic Eclectic Reconstructionist -- By definition this entire path is an oxymoron in a way. I'm not saying its wrong, but maybe titling it this way isnt the way to go.

Its deliberately provocative, but also hopefully gets people to think. Sort of like Christo-Pagan does.


Celts arent German.
Nor did they grow up in sealed containers either side of an uncrossable abyss. They evolved next door to each other in ways that its sometimes handy to point out to those who like to slot their history into tidy little compartments. Their practices influenced one anothers profoundly.There was often a lot more commonality between neighbouring Celtic and germanic peoples of the same time period, than there was between two Celtic or two Germanic people at widely varying historical periods and geographic locations.


Eclectic opposes Reconstructionism.

Eclectic picks from various paths and traditions while Reconstructionism sticks to one defined culture/tradition/path/history/mythology.
Indeed. (Actually, eclectic meant a school of philosophy that drew from the two other schools).
Now, if the historical people which one is interested in were themselves eclectic, what does investigating how that was done make you? Reconstructionist. And what does slicing off parts of the genuine historical tradition to fit tidy pre-conceived ideas make you? Revisionsist.


German Gods are different than the Celtic Gods.
Yes. Especially later in history. However, for some its really not clear. Is Nehalennia Celtic or Germanic? What about Apadeva? Are the Treveri Germanic or Celtic?


Moreover, there are different Celtic Pantheons.
Or at least, its incorrect to talk of *the* Celtic pantheon and *the* Germanic pantheon, in that I can agree.


If youre on an Eclectic path, sure why not mix pantheons and work with the Gods that call you, regardless of their origin? If youre on a Reconstructionist path, one tends to stick to the Pantheon of Gods this path belongs to.

Fatal flaw in your reasoning - you assume that mixing only ever happened in the 20th and 21st century. You assume that there was even the concept of a group of deities with tidy arrangements into a pantheon - which is true for some cultures and not others.


Sure, one may honor other Gods outside of the specific Pantheon. However, the devotion and worship remains 100% to the Gods of your chosen Reconstructionist path.

Just my 2 cents.
Thats nice and simple, so appealing for some I am sure. For some of us though, the actual historical reality is more appealing than the tidied up, squared off, edited, non-historical version.

[mothwench]

bah. the darn thing won't let me poke you. :hugz:

[mucgwyrt]

:kooky: wow, i'm chuffed! i might start a thread about my path after all, some day... :hmmmmm:
sorry this reply is a little late, i was ill these last few days and couldn't get on my computer.
...or a website like Morag! :heybaby:

[mothwench]

morag's making a website? where? gosh, i've been away too long. :lol:

[mucgwyrt]

morag's making a website? where? gosh, i've been away too long. :lol:
(we're trying to bully her into starting a Scottish Celtic Recon site on my server ;))

[Hærfest Leah]

Fatal flaw in your reasoning - you assume that mixing only ever happened in the 20th and 21st century. You assume that there was even the concept of a group of deities with tidy arrangements into a pantheon - which is true for some cultures and not others.


Thats nice and simple, so appealing for some I am sure. For some of us though, the actual historical reality is more appealing than the tidied up, squared off, edited, non-historical version.

That's what I was saying, since they seemed to be so close at times and mixed then reconstructing them accurately (to me anyways) means combining these two very closely related cultures. I'd find it very hard to follow ones ancestors in north & western europe and have to stuff them into a nice segregated box when I do a pendulum reading on my own ancestors and it tells me I have both celts and norsemen in my ancestry like many many others probably do also.

[mucgwyrt]

She likes to make stuff up..............

http://www.northvegr.org/reviews/northern.php (http://www.northvegr.org/reviews/northern.php)
Doesnt she just :rolleyes: I'm glad to finally find someone who agrees with me about her *shakes your hand*

edit: the author obviously missed the part where Aswynn asserted that England was obviously named after Ing (you know, Ing-Land :rolleyes: )