Another Question about Don

[RubyRose]

Okay, I came across this before, but I ignored because at the time it didn't seem relevent.

Don (f) consort of Beli

and then I also have

Donn (m) consort of Nudd

So which is correct? I originally assumed that the Deity Don was female because of the link to Dana, the Irish Mother Goddess, and Danae, the Greek Goddess of similar standing.

I've found similar conflictions between the Deity Aeron, Aertan & Agrona. All three are similar, but Aeron is male, and female in some texts, Aertan is female, and Agrona is female.

I find the whole concept rather curious. Is it just because myths get confused as time goes on that these conflictions occur? Or is it something else entirely?

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

It's mostly that myths get confused. Remember these were oral stories that were passed on and eventually written down by Christian monks. During that time period women in the Christian Church had no power and so it is likely that powerful women in the myths may have been changed to men. Furthermore the discrepencies in local stories, such as Don's marriage to either Beli or Nudd depending on which myth you are reading is related to local variances. In some localities different deities will take the place of others as they are more important to those people. Don't forget that the Welsh didn't exist back then as we consider them today. They were not on cohesive nation but a bunch of tribes who happened to inhabit the area we now call Wales. Each tribe is going to have their stories and myths, which will have many similarities that we can see, but also many differences.

[RubyRose]

Originally Posted by Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill

It's mostly that myths get confused. Remember these were oral stories that were passed on and eventually written down by Christian monks. During that time period women in the Christian Church had no power and so it is likely that powerful women in the myths may have been changed to men. Furthermore the discrepencies in local stories, such as Don's marriage to either Beli or Nudd depending on which myth you are reading is related to local variances. In some localities different deities will take the place of others as they are more important to those people. Don't forget that the Welsh didn't exist back then as we consider them today. They were not on cohesive nation but a bunch of tribes who happened to inhabit the area we now call Wales. Each tribe is going to have their stories and myths, which will have many similarities that we can see, but also many differences.

Ah yeah, I keep forgetting that Wales isn't what it used to be. Thanks.

[Garden of Eden]

I think some gods and goddesses end up being both genders as a sort of 'hermaphrodite' embodiment of their concept... *dizzy* Ok... confusing myself...

[RubyRose]

Originally Posted by Garden of Eden

I think some gods and goddesses end up being both genders as a sort of 'hermaphrodite' embodiment of their concept... *dizzy* Ok... confusing myself...

Yeah interesting concept.

[teleri]

Originally Posted by RubyRose

Okay, I came across this before, but I ignored because at the time it didn't seem relevent.

Don (f) consort of Beli

and then I also have

Donn (m) consort of Nudd

So which is correct?

Why does only one of these have to be correct? There are several examples in the Mabinogi of women who have more than one consort. Rhiannon was married first to Pwyll in the First Branch and then to Manawydan in the Third Branch. In the Second Branch, Penarddun was consort to Llyr with whom she bore Bran, Branwen and Manawydan and to Euroswydd with whom she bore Nisien and Efnisien.

I've found similar conflictions between the Deity Aeron, Aertan & Agrona. All three are similar, but Aeron is male, and female in some texts, Aertan is female, and Agrona is female.

I took a quick look on the web for these names and the only reference I could find from a primary source for any of these names were a couple of references to a hero named "Aeron" in the poem "Y Gododdin." Aeron is also attested as a place name, but I can find no other source that mentions him or the others in your list. I get so frustrated that the web sites that list Aeron, Aertan and/or Agrona don't cite, in detail, the sources of their infomation or from what myths/stories these characters appear.

I just discovered this item on Agrona that says that Agrona is a "hypothetical goddess." I get suspicious when I cannot find reference to an original myth or story to back up a listing of "deity" names.

I find the whole concept rather curious. Is it just because myths get confused as time goes on that these conflictions occur? Or is it something else entirely?

By the time the myths were written down, many of the original meanings of the stories had been lost and those who were transcribing them often did not understand what the story had originally been about. Or, they may have understood, but the original stories no longer reflected [then] current concerns or moralities. Stories became garbled and/or restructured to suit the times or the artistic vision of the "author." Also, often the writers were trying to reconcile different variants into a whole, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

For Mòrag -- Perhaps not all of the stories were written down by monks. Andrew Breeze has a hypothesis that the Mabinogi stories was written by a woman -- "Did a woman write the Four Branches of the Mabinogi?" Studi Medievali 38 (1997) No. 2 (Dec.) pp. 679-705.

Teleri

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Oh I wasn't meaning to imply that all of the myths and stories were written by monks, but the majority of them certainly were as the Celtic tribes themselves had a taboo against writing anything down. But thanks for the article reference, I'd love to read it, even if Welsh mythology has never interested me much. I prefer my Irish and Scottish myths.

[RubyRose]

Originally Posted by teleri

Why does only one of these have to be correct? There are several examples in the Mabinogi of women who have more than one consort. Rhiannon was married first to Pwyll in the First Branch and then to Manawydan in the Third Branch. In the Second Branch, Penarddun was consort to Llyr with whom she bore Bran, Branwen and Manawydan and to Euroswydd with whom she bore Nisien and Efnisien.

I'm not saying either has to be correct, I'm just trying to figure it out. I realise that over time myths and stories have changed. I'm not the best when it comes to phrasing things, and I was just basically after people perspectives. Never having a really close look at each possible connection with Welsh God/desses before, I've never really considered all the possible occurances.

Originally Posted by teleri

I took a quick look on the web for these names and the only reference I could find from a primary source for any of these names were a couple of references to a hero named "Aeron" in the poem "Y Gododdin." Aeron is also attested as a place name, but I can find no other source that mentions him or the others in your list. I get so frustrated that the web sites that list Aeron, Aertan and/or Agrona don't cite, in detail, the sources of their infomation or from what myths/stories these characters appear.

I just discovered this item on Agrona that says that Agrona is a "hypothetical goddess." I get suspicious when I cannot find reference to an original myth or story to back up a listing of "deity" names.



By the time the myths were written down, many of the original meanings of the stories had been lost and those who were transcribing them often did not understand what the story had originally been about. Or, they may have understood, but the original stories no longer reflected [then] current concerns or moralities. Stories became garbled and/or restructured to suit the times or the artistic vision of the "author." Also, often the writers were trying to reconcile different variants into a whole, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

For Mòrag -- Perhaps not all of the stories were written down by monks. Andrew Breeze has a hypothesis that the Mabinogi stories was written by a woman -- "Did a woman write the Four Branches of the Mabinogi?" Studi Medievali 38 (1997) No. 2 (Dec.) pp. 679-705.

Teleri

Thank you, once again the net is dumfounding, and I kept forgetting that I can't trust everything around the net to be 'truth'. More's the pity, because books on the Welsh Deities, are rather scarce, and money's just as scarce.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally Posted by RubyRose

Thank you, once again the net is dumfounding, and I kept forgetting that I can't trust everything around the net to be 'truth'. More's the pity, because books on the Welsh Deities, are rather scarce, and money's just as scarce.

Honestly your best bet would be to go out and read the source material. I know it might cost a fair chunk of change, but you're better off, and at least you'll actually know the myths, rather than second hand knowledge that may or may not be correct.

[RubyRose]

Originally Posted by Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill

Honestly your best bet would be to go out and read the source material. I know it might cost a fair chunk of change, but you're better off, and at least you'll actually know the myths, rather than second hand knowledge that may or may not be correct.

Yeah, I'll have to look into it.