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  • Italian Court to Rule on Existance of Jesus

    That's right!

    An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/...religion_court
    Last edited by Xander67; January 6th, 2006, 03:35 AM.
    11 Year Member
    Forum Guide for
    Astrology and the UFO & Extraterrestrial forums.

  • #2
    Theres another thread about this floating around...but I cant wait to see how this one plays out!!
    :boing:

    Comment


    • #3
      What are they gonna do? Storm the Vatican and arrest everyone?

      I passed this on because I thought it was interesting how an argument between 2 former schoolmates has turned into a big court case.
      11 Year Member
      Forum Guide for
      Astrology and the UFO & Extraterrestrial forums.

      Comment


      • #4
        But what will happen to the mind sets of many people if the court declares Jesus is a fabrication?
        :boing:

        Comment


        • #5
          "In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.
          Does anyone know his proof that Jesus did not exist?
          SpongeBob: Hi, Squidward! I mean, good bye, Squidward! Isn't opposite day...terrible!
          Squidward: [from his house] I'll tell you what's terrible-- living next to you! You're the worst neighbor in history!
          SpongeBob: Wow, that's the nicest thing Squidward's ever said to me!
          SpongeBob & Patrick: Happy Opposite Day, Squidward! We hate you!
          Squidward: Grr... Let me show you guys how much I hate you! [Squidward chases them with a bulldozer] Happy Opposite Day!
          SpongeBob: Patrick, do you ever think Squidward likes us too much?

          Comment


          • #6
            I haven't read his book, but I'm quite familiar with the evidence both for and against Jesus' existance. Nearly all of it is on the web. Feel free to look into it yourself.

            To start, just got to http://www.infidels.org, then go to the search function in the upper right, and type in "jesus, exist" or some such. There is plenty of information.

            What it boils down to is that there is only a little evidence, so basically we don't know either way. The evidence is so short that we can list it all here:

            The evidence we have (ignoring anything that we know someone just made up)

            Christian sources of information (in chronological order):

            ((Earliest))
            Paul, who says very little about Jesus, and didn't see any of Jesus' life.
            Our earliest Gospel – Mark
            Mt & Luke
            Later gospels like Thomas, Mary, John, etc.
            ((latest))


            Jewish sources-
            Only Josephus. Everything else like the Talmud, etc, is too late to be useful.
            Non Abrahamic sources – almost none (Tacitus, Pliny, etc.)

            There are a few others, but this list is pretty much all we have.

            Whenever someone states something about Jesus, I want to know what source they are basing it on. If they aren’t basing in on a source, they are making it up, and their view doesn’t deserve the attention of anyone.

            Because we have lots of hard evidence that Christians were making up stories and adding them to our accounts, ideas from these sources must be tested.

            The only historical evidence we have of Jesus' existance are either:

            1. Christian stories, many of which are known to be made up to support their religion, such as in the Gospels. These don't show that Jesus existed, only that he could have existed, and that there were early Christians.

            2. Historical (usually Roman) accounts from decades later that only say that Christians existed as a religion, but don't show that Jesus existed.

            3. Accounts that may be fabrications, such as the testimonium flavium.

            Overall, I personally guess that Jesus probably existed due to things in the Christian stories that I don't think a Christian would make up. However, I recognize that there isn't firm proof that Jesus existed, and that he may well be a complete fabrication (as opposed to mostly a fabrication, which he clearly is either way.).


            Have a fun day-
            -Equinox

            I like my spirituality because I think it's true. But I love my spirituality because it makes me excited to be part of the universe. - Ben Trimegistus, 2004.2.23 (That's how I feel too!)

            (webpage temporarily down) my webpage:

            In short, I'm a Naturalistic Pagan spiritually at home in Unitarian Universalism.

            Talk with us! New Naturalistic Pagan Yahoo Group

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            • #7
              I just don't see why it should matter Who it was. The things to look at are the messages this person brought, the teachings, and impact they had on the world. Religion aside, the Jesus figure is still a great leader, look at him not his followers. Maybe his name was John of Gamala, but that's unimportant in my opinion. Proof or no proof, it doesn't change my views on the story of Jesus, even if a lot of it could be fiction. Some"One" is the genius behind it all.
              Last edited by Inward Visionary; January 6th, 2006, 09:12 AM.
              SpongeBob: Hi, Squidward! I mean, good bye, Squidward! Isn't opposite day...terrible!
              Squidward: [from his house] I'll tell you what's terrible-- living next to you! You're the worst neighbor in history!
              SpongeBob: Wow, that's the nicest thing Squidward's ever said to me!
              SpongeBob & Patrick: Happy Opposite Day, Squidward! We hate you!
              Squidward: Grr... Let me show you guys how much I hate you! [Squidward chases them with a bulldozer] Happy Opposite Day!
              SpongeBob: Patrick, do you ever think Squidward likes us too much?

              Comment


              • #8
                I saw this on Google news yesterday. Again, I'm surprised it hasn't been thrown out of court. Honestly. If Jesus never existed, that doesn't make Christianity a fraud and a swindling operation.

                Geez. Some people just CAN'T understand that there is a difference between lying and saying something that's untrue. The priest and Christians (clergy and lay) believe in their heart of hearts that Jesus actually did live and die (and live again). They're not trying to "trick others into believing it" (Ha, ha, look at those poor suckers falling for all our lies), they believe it themselves.

                The burden of proof, therefore, should not be on the priest; it should be on the atheist. And HIS job is to prove that the Church (including the priest), believes and knows that Jesus does not exist and are intentionally lying to the people to gain whatever political or financial power that he's so upset with.

                Whether or not Jesus actually existed shouldn't even be an issue. The issue is whether the Church is LYING. And he'll have a good job ahead of him trying to prove that, since the Church can always fall back on the fact that "religious truths" do not necessarily line up with "historical facts", but that doesn't invalidate the truth in them; it just makes it spiritual, mental, metaphorical rather than physical or historical.

                I mean, I don't know how Italian courts work, but I'm fairly certain that in an American court, the burden of proof would be on the atheist to prove that the Church is intentionally swindling people.

                *rolls eyes* Some people. Geez.

                Tashi delek!
                Dawa Lhamo
                Before you accuse someone of LYING, please read this first.

                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Inward Visionary
                  I just don't see why it should matter Who it was. The things to look at are the messages this person brought, the teachings, and impact they had on the world. Religion aside, the Jesus figure is still a great leader, look at him not his followers. Maybe his name was John of Gamala, but that's unimportant in my opinion. Proof or no proof, it doesn't change my views on the story of Jesus, even if a lot of it could be fiction. Some"One" is the genius behind it all.
                  Exactly. Finding out Jesus didn't exist wouldn't invalidate the whole religion. The religious truths would remain truths, whether their origins are a historical figure or an inspired writer. The argument is just idiotic. Next we'll be banning all works of fiction because they're not true, so the authors MUST be swindling people. Boy the world would be unfulfilling (and boring) if we could only discuss concrete reality.

                  Tashi delek!
                  Dawa Lhamo
                  Before you accuse someone of LYING, please read this first.

                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is he assuming that by proving one guy lived and did certain deeds that it automatically rules out Jesus? Proving one person existed doesn't make someone else non-existent. I don't know how you can prove someone didn't exist. Records only go so far back... and who's to say everyone is kept in those records.

                    The collective belief of older persons is that Santa Claus doesn't exist... but can you really prove that he doesn't? Or never did? The story has to come from somewhere, even if it's in someone's twisted mind. And then look at the smiles it puts on all the kids faces when they think Santa Claus is coming to town. They eventually learn it's just mom or dad, it breaks their hearts for a little while, but they grow out of it.

                    If someone proves Jesus doesn't exist, well, the things he's done for me still come from Mom and Dad.
                    SpongeBob: Hi, Squidward! I mean, good bye, Squidward! Isn't opposite day...terrible!
                    Squidward: [from his house] I'll tell you what's terrible-- living next to you! You're the worst neighbor in history!
                    SpongeBob: Wow, that's the nicest thing Squidward's ever said to me!
                    SpongeBob & Patrick: Happy Opposite Day, Squidward! We hate you!
                    Squidward: Grr... Let me show you guys how much I hate you! [Squidward chases them with a bulldozer] Happy Opposite Day!
                    SpongeBob: Patrick, do you ever think Squidward likes us too much?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Candy coating Jesus

                      Inward Visionary wrote:
                      Jesus figure is still a great leader, look at him not his followers.

                      Jesus did say some nice things, at least with regard to social standing (like accepting the poor, or the lepers). However, we can’t just pick and choose what stories about Jesus to believe based on what we wished were true. All stories should be considered and tested based on the evidence, and when this is done, some of the meaner stories about Jesus appear to be historically accurate. Often, the fundamentalists are more honest about Jesus than the liberal Christians. For instance, Jesus also urged people to put religion ahead of their families, abandoning their wife and kids if needed – think of that in the world of Jesus’ day – a single mom was terribly vulnerable, and Jesus’ words could well have been a death sentence to many women and children. Jesus also is reported as saying he came to bring not peace, but a sword (Mt 10:34). There is discussion of Jesus’ racism in this thread here: http://www.paganforums.org/showthrea...4&page=9&pp=10 mt 15:23, where Jesus refuses to heal someone because they aren’t Jewish - See posts #86 and #94.

                      It’s hard to imagine a more intolerant and hateful doctrine than the doctrine of Hell, where people are tormented forever based (according to Christianity) on whether or not they are in the “right” religion – so unbelievers, like Gandhi and the Dali Lama, get eternally tortured. Who talks about Hell the most in the whole Bible? Moses? Nope. Peter? Nope? What about that woman hater, Paul? Nope. Jesus preaches about the torment of Hell more than everyone else in the Bible put together.

                      Jesus certainly does appear to have taught acceptance, especially of women, the diseased, and other social outcasts, as well as mentioning other good things, like the quoting the old testament law of the golden rule. However, let’s not candy-coat Jesus and pretend he was all cuteness and sweetness. Remembering that he was an apocalyptic Jewish teacher in the 1st century, does make it likely that he condemned other religions. I know it is popular to claim to be following Jesus, but let’s not mold Jesus to our beliefs and then claim that Jesus followed our beliefs all along. That’s not honest, but it seems to be what many people do today. Hey, I should sell Jesus ventriloquist dummies, so everyone can make Jesus say whatever they want him to say – that’s what many people do anyway…..

                      Love and Light-
                      -Equinox

                      I like my spirituality because I think it's true. But I love my spirituality because it makes me excited to be part of the universe. - Ben Trimegistus, 2004.2.23 (That's how I feel too!)

                      (webpage temporarily down) my webpage:

                      In short, I'm a Naturalistic Pagan spiritually at home in Unitarian Universalism.

                      Talk with us! New Naturalistic Pagan Yahoo Group

                      Equinox/Solstice Times . . rise/set and phase dataDaily Devotion for Naturalistic Pagans (Click Here.......... or Here) :fpraiseyo

                      P. S. thanks so much for all the people who have given me karma. With a very slow connection, I simply don't have time to give out nearly as much as I'd like.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who is Jesus' lawyer? I bet he can get a pretty good one since he knows people who know people.
                        "Oh yeah, well quote this!"
                        -Me




                        (\_/)
                        (O.o)
                        (> <)

                        First person to notice this text doesn't win a prize.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WokeUpDead
                          Who is Jesus' lawyer? I bet he can get a pretty good one since he knows people who know people.
                          Well, I have heard Satan described as "God's Prosecuting Attorney"... hmmm..... ^_^

                          Tashi delek!
                          Dawa Lhamo
                          Before you accuse someone of LYING, please read this first.

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wow. I'm stunned that a court of any stature has got their hands on this mess. This is a really important issue that could spark international change. Nevertheless, I am a devout [Gnostic] Chr!stian. *shrugs* (The Spirit, not the Story!)
                            They pray, grant thou, lest faith turn to despair.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well I haven't read all of the Bible, those are still just stories to me. If I said I believe in the teachings of Homer Simpson does that mean that he is the greatest leader in the world and that he always does magnificent things, no. He doesn't have to say anything that I like, or do anything that I like, hell, he doesn't intentionally teach anything. But he's still a great character to learn lessons from, like anyone really. That's how I'm looking at Jesus here. It's not the man, it's the impact this person has on the world. It doesn't matter what the hard facts are, it doesn't matter what he did wrong, and I wouldn't listen to everything he said and take it as my truth. I'm looking at him in no different light than Adolf Hitler or the homeless down the street or president Bush. They all have something to teach, whether it's their intention or not. Everyone is gonna be drawn to different people to learn from, and each learn something different. Whether it's the reality outside everyday or some fairy tale book, your gonna learn what you need to know. It's like all the people in a movie theater... they're all watching the same movie but everyone sees something different about it. And you don't look to just one person, you look at them all.

                              Last edited by Inward Visionary; January 6th, 2006, 05:13 PM.
                              SpongeBob: Hi, Squidward! I mean, good bye, Squidward! Isn't opposite day...terrible!
                              Squidward: [from his house] I'll tell you what's terrible-- living next to you! You're the worst neighbor in history!
                              SpongeBob: Wow, that's the nicest thing Squidward's ever said to me!
                              SpongeBob & Patrick: Happy Opposite Day, Squidward! We hate you!
                              Squidward: Grr... Let me show you guys how much I hate you! [Squidward chases them with a bulldozer] Happy Opposite Day!
                              SpongeBob: Patrick, do you ever think Squidward likes us too much?

                              Comment

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