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  • Can people direct karma?

    Ok. I was recently looking over some old e-mails I got from the leadership of an online coven when I left about a year ago. There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever. But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."

    So, I don't get it. Are they talking about karma "teaching me a lesson" as totally separate from their wishes and actions or are they spurring karma on (and I know some of these people well enough to think it's the latter)?

    Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.

    I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity. It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon. What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible? I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.
    Blessings,
    P. Rex

    My website: http://www.bookofspirals.com
    My blog: http://www.bookofspirals.com/blog
    An ezine I co-founded: http://spiraltree.weebly.com

  • #2
    I believe some people treat karma as they treat their gods: as slaves.

    No, karma does not work that way. To have karma rip you to shreds, your actions would've had to have been atrocious on a cosmic scale. Personal disgruntlement hardly even registers.
    Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
    Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

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    • #3
      I also agree that it is extremely arrogant for a person to think they can direct someone else's karma. Just small minded people thinking they have something over you because they feel helpless that you are no longer playing in their sandbox.

      Your life and your experiences are yours and yours alone to figure out and learn from. ...screw anyone who would try and make it otherwise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
        Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.
        I'm assuming they were using the term "karma" in the Western sense rather than the Eastern sense. One can always tell people what one wants or hopes karma will do. But assuming that karma exists, what one wants or hopes will have nothing to do with what it may actually do.

        I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity. It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon. What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible? I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.
        I confess I do not know enough about the Eastern religions to feel comfortable using a word like karma in my own terminology. I do believe in something that has been called "the cosmic inertia," but I don't think this concept is exactly identical to what Hindus and Buddhists would consider karma.

        That being said, it is not unusual for people to "call down the wrath of _______" against people who piss them off for one reason or another. Such people are often blind to their own inadequacies. Though there are no rules in my tradition against casting death curses on schmucks who truly deserve it, I am always slow to resort to such methods, because I believe the price can be severe if the intended victim doesn't really deserve it. And even if I am truly convinced that a person deserves it, I may in fact be entirely mistaken.

        As unusual as it may sound for someone who walks the left-hand path, I prefer to engage the Gods and the other forces that rule our cosmos with humility and respect. I don't engage Them as toys that I can control or manipulate.
        My God is a real Ass; He butchered the Dying-and-Rising Lord, He stole the Eye from the Hawk, He sires the Children of Rebellion, and He lusts after God and Goddess alike. Every green and growing thing shrivels into dust at His touch; every convention is violated by the seed of His loins. He brings drought and infertility to the land, and He has no respect for the crook or the flail. Yet without Him, the slave would never break free from his bondage, the evil serpent would devour the sun, and the future would never come to pass.

        The song of the tempest is His name.


        Khepher-I-Suti

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Darth Brooks View Post
          I'm assuming they were using the term "karma" in the Western sense rather than the Eastern sense. One can always tell people what one wants or hopes karma will do. But assuming that karma exists, what one wants or hopes will have nothing to do with what it may actually do.
          That's what Kaylara said, too.

          I don't engage Them as toys that I can control or manipulate.
          And more people should follow your example.
          Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
          Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok - now that I look back over the original post, I can see part of it was badly worded.

            I said, "Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do." But that's misleading. I CAN, in fact, want or hope what might happen to them, but I can't will it. Just as I can tell someone to go jump off a cliff and hope that gravity works but not direct gravity to do it.

            I hope that makes more sense.
            Blessings,
            P. Rex

            My website: http://www.bookofspirals.com
            My blog: http://www.bookofspirals.com/blog
            An ezine I co-founded: http://spiraltree.weebly.com

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Darth Brooks
              I'm assuming they were using the term "karma" in the Western sense rather than the Eastern sense.
              I'd replace "Western" with "bastardized," but that's just me.

              Faith is easy -- until the moment you actually need it.

              "Since when are facts subjective?" - Athena_Nadine

              "Turning and turning in the widening gyre
              The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
              Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
              Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
              The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
              The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
              The best lack all convictions, while the worst
              Are full of passionate intensity."

              – W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
                So, I don't get it.
                Its easy

                There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever.
                This is their way of validating themselves, see im a good person so im going to tell you that I respect you still. Its their way of reassuring themselves that they are right and not you.

                But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."
                And this is how they really feel about it. They are angry with your decision and thats how they are projecting it to you. Sounds like they have a bit of resentment.

                Nothing to do with karma or trying to teach you a lesson. They are just pissed and trying to make themselves feel better.
                Last edited by Vampiel; May 7th, 2009, 05:04 PM.
                You will always do what you think, if you think you cannot change because that is always who you were - that is always who you will be. If you think you decide who you are despite what you have done in the past, and can decide who you are today you will. Do not chain yourself to the past or the future, but what you can decide in the present.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
                  Ok. I was recently looking over some old e-mails I got from the leadership of an online coven when I left about a year ago.

                  In some ways the fact you refer to the leadership as the originator makes one wonder about the coven itself.

                  There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever.

                  Typical. The psuedo pretense of sinserity and well wishing.

                  But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."

                  Just out of curiosity but were there any type of dues or money exchanged with this group? This makes me think of that.

                  So, I don't get it. Are they talking about karma "teaching me a lesson" as totally separate from their wishes and actions or are they spurring karma on (and I know some of these people well enough to think it's the latter)?

                  I would say the latter. But you do not mention your position in this so it's difficult to say whether it is spurring Karma to act against you or your own sense of Karma to act as a returning force back to them.

                  Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons

                  In the Western mode I agree. In the Eastern mode of changing future Karmic returns I think it can be directed by the individual that will experience it.

                  - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.

                  I disagree in that I can make a statement to the effect of what I want or hope your Karma will do to you. Not only make it but hope your consideration of my desire is sufficient to make you carryout my desire.
                  Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post

                  Think about this very discussion this is fallout of their influence and operation of karmic forces. Perhaps not the intent they desired but a cause with this discussion being the effect.

                  I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity.

                  To me that is more of the Western notion of Karmic return.

                  It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon.

                  The thing with any weapon is the manner in which it is used. If I believe you will get defensive or possibly return to my fold by the suggestion then I have achieved my goal. Under Western notions your karmic forces have been put into motion.

                  What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible?

                  Again depends upon which model one is working from. Eastern notion then can be done to speed up or diminish the rate except for the future.

                  Western notion indicates that any action can be done so in the here and now.

                  I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.


                  I think that if one is working under the notion of the typical construct of Western working then they have succeeded. Not purely in the notion of causing negative returns but in inspiring or causing active consideration of the possibility.

                  If it has in any way made you re-consider the position of returning to the fold then it has two fold worked upon you.

                  Where I disagree with the typical notion of Western influence is that under that premise karmic return is not always a negative but can be a positive motivator.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some excellent points have come out of this discussion - thank you for sharing.

                    I didn't want to go into too much detail. I speak out against this organization (I shudder to call it a coven) whenever I can, but I was more interested in the principle here.

                    Yes, there was money involved and that should have been a massive red flag. But this group preys on many who can't find people of their faith nearby and makes them pay for access to their faith community - which is heavily censored and run by some very manipulative people.

                    And I will say, I myself charge for readings and consultations - and often online. But my primary goal is to help people and share knowledge. I have NEVER turned down someone who needed a free or discounted service, and I have NEVER hidden the nature of my services before a payment was assessed. And I don't make the hundreds of thousands a year that the people at that organization make - far, far from it. If I went down to work at McDonalds (another organization that makes me shudder), I would make a better annual income. But I do what I do because it's fulfilling.

                    Yes, I can see that my ideas about karma are more Western ones, which tells me I should study some other models for comparison.

                    Again, thanks to those who posted.
                    Blessings,
                    P. Rex

                    My website: http://www.bookofspirals.com
                    My blog: http://www.bookofspirals.com/blog
                    An ezine I co-founded: http://spiraltree.weebly.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
                      I didn't want to go into too much detail. I speak out against this organization (I shudder to call it a coven) whenever I can, but I was more interested in the principle here.

                      Yes, there was money involved and that should have been a massive red flag. But this group preys on many who can't find people of their faith nearby and makes them pay for access to their faith community - which is heavily censored and run by some very manipulative people.
                      Sounds familiar.

                      And I will say, I myself charge for readings and consultations - and often online. But my primary goal is to help people and share knowledge. I have NEVER turned down someone who needed a free or discounted service, and I have NEVER hidden the nature of my services before a payment was assessed. And I don't make the hundreds of thousands a year that the people at that organization make - far, far from it. If I went down to work at McDonalds (another organization that makes me shudder), I would make a better annual income. But I do what I do because it's fulfilling.
                      I'm not normally asked to do consultations or services for people, but whenever I am I always do it for free (if I have the time, and if it seems like the person really needs it). But as long as you do what you do first and foremost because it's fulfilling to you I see no reason to comment on how you conduct your business.

                      Again, thanks to those who posted.
                      You're welcome, I hope we've helped you.
                      Last edited by Darth Brooks; May 10th, 2009, 07:37 PM.
                      My God is a real Ass; He butchered the Dying-and-Rising Lord, He stole the Eye from the Hawk, He sires the Children of Rebellion, and He lusts after God and Goddess alike. Every green and growing thing shrivels into dust at His touch; every convention is violated by the seed of His loins. He brings drought and infertility to the land, and He has no respect for the crook or the flail. Yet without Him, the slave would never break free from his bondage, the evil serpent would devour the sun, and the future would never come to pass.

                      The song of the tempest is His name.


                      Khepher-I-Suti

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I totally agree with your first post - karma is a force of nature not something we can control and inflict on others. I think whoever threatened to set their karma on you was talking out of their rear - hopefully they'll learn their lesson
                        Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.

                        Adam and Meagan sitting in a tree K I S S I N G

                        Founder of the Soli-Tarty movement - Pagan tarts unite (in my bedroom)

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                        • #13
                          Interesting thread for sure. Unsure and guess it can be done of course.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Xentor View Post
                            I believe some people treat karma as they treat their gods: as slaves.

                            No, karma does not work that way. To have karma rip you to shreds, your actions would've had to have been atrocious on a cosmic scale. Personal disgruntlement hardly even registers.
                            This.

                            People cannot create karma for you and then send it to you in the same way they could bake some cookies and mail them to you. It is your thoughts, words and deeds that will create your karma - not those of others. That's their trip.

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                            • #15
                              Arrogant or not, there are more than a few spells that have made the rounds over the years that actually can turn a person into a "karma magnet" with the consequences of their actions begin hitting them a lot harder and a lot faster than is normal for the person. Some of these spells are known as "turning the wheel" after the idea that you can give the karmic wheel a little push.

                              There are also a wide variety of "boomerang" spells that cause the person they are cast on to have things "bounce back" at them. Such as, a girl tries to break you and your boyfriend up and she ends up driving her own boyfriend away while bringing you and yous closer together.

                              None of these spells actually do anything to karma, either the caster's or the castee's. The caster merely sets up the raflection, its the castee's thoughts and actions that are reflected. Though the caster's intent may be to make the castee miserable, the effects are entirely within the castee's control. To those who cannot tell the difference, it appears that you have done something to the person's karma, when in fact all that has been done is to hold up a mirror to show what they are doing to their own karma.

                              Should I use these spells? Depends I suppose on what I use them for. I taught a variation of a reflection spell to my daughter to try and help her reflect the voices she hears away from her. She adapted it to help her stop cutting as well. My younger son uses it on his older brother, a lot. Older son has a talisman that would protect him against his little brother's tricks, but since the older son converted to Christianity, he won't wear it.

                              Do I think your past coven mates have one of these spells up their sleeve? You would know that better than I do. Odds are, if they did, they would have used it already. Have things been better or worse for you of late, or is life whatever passes for normal in your existence? If things are normal for you, then they either don't have a spell of this type or you aren't doing anything screwy to yourself. Either way, if you suddenly do find things going wonky in your world, do random acts of kindness until things even out for you.

                              Just remember, all of this advice is coming from someone whose parents met in a mental hospital.:hehehehe:
                              Brought to you by the
                              National Association For Addressing Prejudice Against Jackasses (NAFAPAJ).
                              Not all witches are love and light, nor are they all hate and darkness.
                              Some witches are just real mothers - like me.
                              You cannot carve a beautiful sculpture in stone with loving strokes.
                              It takes a hammer, a chisel, and a lot of aggression that needs converted.
                              I am aware of how nasty I come across.
                              If others have the right and freedom to be sweetness and light,
                              I have the right to be spit and vinegar.

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