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  • Humming Bird
    replied
    Originally posted by Anima Nera View Post
    As understood by Eastern Traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism I don't think there is any way that karma can be manipulated or directed.
    I used to believe in karma but don't think I do anymore.
    It occurs to me though that a witch could in theory manipulate "anything" including karma or at least, people's belief in it.
    It is one of those things whereby if you have to ask the answer is no.
    Karma is an expression of the Dharma (work, discipline) whereby if you are doing what you need to be doing on your path, your karma will resolve to meet those needs.
    It is like following the Tao, if you have to manipulate your Karma, you wont be able to because you're already ensnared in that pattern.
    Karma changes when you change, when your behavior changes... once in motion it must resolve...
    Manipulate i think is the wrong word, it is self determined, yet it is a reaction... essentially that's all it is, the consequence ill or good of the Dharma or lack thereof.
    And as the consequence is a self-manifested trial and obstacle I don't think you can manipulate it without manipulating yourself.

    Yet, mastering this causation of self is attested, as it required in the escaping of Samsara, the wheel of reincarnation... of patterns and also life to life if you recognize reincarnation, which is said to be rooted therein.
    However I don't think the word overcome is appropriate either, because really you don't break the wheel so much as embrace and become the wheel itself, and sometimes this is depicted as being in the center thereof, a nod to inner locus.

    Speaking of Buddhism, the idea there is that to manipulate karma, one needs yo engage in right though, right speech, right action etc....
    while various schools have their reservations on what these are, ultimately all that is known is that it will be the right think to do.
    There aren't any absolute guidelines because everything is a) ever changing and b)the perceptional situation is always different...

    The great thing there, is that what "right action" etc. is, is going to be different for each individual.
    In this regard it isn't unlike the "True Will" we see in Thelema.

    How can anyone really say then how to manipulate it toward a given result.
    i wouldn't say you could manipulate karma like a fetch or servitor to go out and accomplish some goal...
    Nor do i think it is that specific.
    'good karma' i would say, is when things more smootly because you are in a state of inner balance, and things unfold accordingly.
    It creates a pathos to follow, being more clearly defined because you aren't in conflict with yourself and thus not manifesting a turbulent and unstable pathway.

    from my experience this does grant one greater influence and control in their magic(k)
    so perhaps, karma isn't something to be manipulated so much as the mechanics of being able to manipulate,
    when the self is in proper synchronization with all its aspects.
    Because when you are on that track you really don't need to cast after the fact.
    There's the recognition that everything you do is an act of correspondence, a magic(k)al act.
    Thus everything you do becomes proactive, of doing without 'doing' and things tend to go your way.
    Last edited by Humming Bird; October 30th, 2015, 02:49 PM.

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  • Anima Nera
    replied
    As understood by Eastern Traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism I don't think there is any way that karma can be manipulated or directed.
    I used to believe in karma but don't think I do anymore.
    It occurs to me though that a witch could in theory manipulate "anything" including karma or at least, people's belief in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Humming Bird
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
    Ok. I was recently looking over some old e-mails I got from the leadership of an online coven when I left about a year ago. There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever. But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."

    So, I don't get it. Are they talking about karma "teaching me a lesson" as totally separate from their wishes and actions or are they spurring karma on (and I know some of these people well enough to think it's the latter)?

    Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.

    I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity. It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon. What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible? I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.
    If by Karma you mean as it is understood in the East, it arises out of ones interactions and pathworking, so you do direct your own Karma though most do it unaware. Becoming aware of ones karma, the ongoing process thereof, one is not caught up or ensnared it, and thus escape the unbalanced patterns and incarnations they've been trapped in.

    As for what people make of karma i don't know.... but i can tell you that people who talk of Karma the way you've described how only an appropriated understand of what it is, and thus are unable to work their Karma let alone influence someone elses... Karma is in essence the relationship between ones actions/will and ones obstacles and consequences ie. fate. Karma is an expression of the Dharma- the work, being on the path. What you do this moment dermines what path is emerging before you. This relationship is Karma.

    If i wanted to mess up someones Karma, I've got to get them to do it because it arises from them, so what I'd do is cast something to get them to work against themselves, their own best interests... so they'll be too busy with karmic obstacles to bother me. To be honest, the nastiest stuff out there gets people to beat themselves up under their own power.

    so simply put, keep mind of yourself, where you are at, what you need to do for the best possible path. If you work on you, the less they will be able to manipulate you and your karma.

    Originally posted by Phoenix Blue View Post
    I'd replace "Western" with "bastardized," but that's just me.

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  • Nesta
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
    Ok. I was recently looking over some old e-mails I got from the leadership of an online coven when I left about a year ago. There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever. But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."

    So, I don't get it. Are they talking about karma "teaching me a lesson" as totally separate from their wishes and actions or are they spurring karma on (and I know some of these people well enough to think it's the latter)?

    Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.

    I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity. It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon. What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible? I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.
    I think it's best to get on with things, do your very best in everything you want to do and let karma take care of itself.

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  • Polypseudonymous Rex
    replied
    Hey ya, Darth. I'm actually always looking for how people feel on the topic of charging for magical services, even when they disagree. I thought long and hard about charging. Right now in my life, it's pretty much a moot point because I only make a couple of thousand a year for such services. But I do think it's fair to be compensated when - and only when - people can afford it. Coming to that point was a big struggle for me, which is why I'm always wanting to hear opinions about it. Also, my coven sets limits on how much someone can earn per year before having to give all the rest to charity. I'm not saying everyone should do that, but it's how I work. This may even be a topic for another thread, but I thought I'd mention it here.

    Xentor, I like your cookie analogy.

    Terra, excellent comments from you, too. I used to cast what I called "reciprocity" spells. They couldn't change karma, but they could change time. The result was that the person's karma caught up to them more quickly. I have now stopped doing this on the following assumption. If someone is having trouble learning one lesson, they are going to be even more stumped if multiple lessons come calling. They will probably become overwhelmed and could give up before they actually try to become better persons. Therefore, I don't reflect negative energy. I just let the universe sort that out on its own. But that's just my personal philosophy, and I might very well make an exception if someone I loved were being threatened.

    Someone also mentioned that people at this old "coven" might be casting spells against me (but I can't find it looking back over the responses just at the moment). Yes, they sometimes do, but it hasn't presented a problem so far. I will seek help if I need it, but I'm thinking I probably won't; I've taken a lot of time in the past working on psychic self-defense and that work has kept me safe so far. Also, this group doesn't know or teach a whole lot about protection, which has worked to my advantage.

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  • Terra Mater
    replied
    Arrogant or not, there are more than a few spells that have made the rounds over the years that actually can turn a person into a "karma magnet" with the consequences of their actions begin hitting them a lot harder and a lot faster than is normal for the person. Some of these spells are known as "turning the wheel" after the idea that you can give the karmic wheel a little push.

    There are also a wide variety of "boomerang" spells that cause the person they are cast on to have things "bounce back" at them. Such as, a girl tries to break you and your boyfriend up and she ends up driving her own boyfriend away while bringing you and yous closer together.

    None of these spells actually do anything to karma, either the caster's or the castee's. The caster merely sets up the raflection, its the castee's thoughts and actions that are reflected. Though the caster's intent may be to make the castee miserable, the effects are entirely within the castee's control. To those who cannot tell the difference, it appears that you have done something to the person's karma, when in fact all that has been done is to hold up a mirror to show what they are doing to their own karma.

    Should I use these spells? Depends I suppose on what I use them for. I taught a variation of a reflection spell to my daughter to try and help her reflect the voices she hears away from her. She adapted it to help her stop cutting as well. My younger son uses it on his older brother, a lot. Older son has a talisman that would protect him against his little brother's tricks, but since the older son converted to Christianity, he won't wear it.

    Do I think your past coven mates have one of these spells up their sleeve? You would know that better than I do. Odds are, if they did, they would have used it already. Have things been better or worse for you of late, or is life whatever passes for normal in your existence? If things are normal for you, then they either don't have a spell of this type or you aren't doing anything screwy to yourself. Either way, if you suddenly do find things going wonky in your world, do random acts of kindness until things even out for you.

    Just remember, all of this advice is coming from someone whose parents met in a mental hospital.:hehehehe:

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  • tobi
    replied
    Originally posted by Xentor View Post
    I believe some people treat karma as they treat their gods: as slaves.

    No, karma does not work that way. To have karma rip you to shreds, your actions would've had to have been atrocious on a cosmic scale. Personal disgruntlement hardly even registers.
    This.

    People cannot create karma for you and then send it to you in the same way they could bake some cookies and mail them to you. It is your thoughts, words and deeds that will create your karma - not those of others. That's their trip.

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  • jessicaabruno
    replied
    Interesting thread for sure. Unsure and guess it can be done of course.

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  • Against The Tide
    replied
    I totally agree with your first post - karma is a force of nature not something we can control and inflict on others. I think whoever threatened to set their karma on you was talking out of their rear - hopefully they'll learn their lesson

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  • Darth Brooks
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
    I didn't want to go into too much detail. I speak out against this organization (I shudder to call it a coven) whenever I can, but I was more interested in the principle here.

    Yes, there was money involved and that should have been a massive red flag. But this group preys on many who can't find people of their faith nearby and makes them pay for access to their faith community - which is heavily censored and run by some very manipulative people.
    Sounds familiar.

    And I will say, I myself charge for readings and consultations - and often online. But my primary goal is to help people and share knowledge. I have NEVER turned down someone who needed a free or discounted service, and I have NEVER hidden the nature of my services before a payment was assessed. And I don't make the hundreds of thousands a year that the people at that organization make - far, far from it. If I went down to work at McDonalds (another organization that makes me shudder), I would make a better annual income. But I do what I do because it's fulfilling.
    I'm not normally asked to do consultations or services for people, but whenever I am I always do it for free (if I have the time, and if it seems like the person really needs it). But as long as you do what you do first and foremost because it's fulfilling to you I see no reason to comment on how you conduct your business.

    Again, thanks to those who posted.
    You're welcome, I hope we've helped you.
    Last edited by Darth Brooks; May 10th, 2009, 08:37 PM.

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  • Polypseudonymous Rex
    replied
    Some excellent points have come out of this discussion - thank you for sharing.

    I didn't want to go into too much detail. I speak out against this organization (I shudder to call it a coven) whenever I can, but I was more interested in the principle here.

    Yes, there was money involved and that should have been a massive red flag. But this group preys on many who can't find people of their faith nearby and makes them pay for access to their faith community - which is heavily censored and run by some very manipulative people.

    And I will say, I myself charge for readings and consultations - and often online. But my primary goal is to help people and share knowledge. I have NEVER turned down someone who needed a free or discounted service, and I have NEVER hidden the nature of my services before a payment was assessed. And I don't make the hundreds of thousands a year that the people at that organization make - far, far from it. If I went down to work at McDonalds (another organization that makes me shudder), I would make a better annual income. But I do what I do because it's fulfilling.

    Yes, I can see that my ideas about karma are more Western ones, which tells me I should study some other models for comparison.

    Again, thanks to those who posted.

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  • monsnoleedra
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
    Ok. I was recently looking over some old e-mails I got from the leadership of an online coven when I left about a year ago.

    In some ways the fact you refer to the leadership as the originator makes one wonder about the coven itself.

    There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever.

    Typical. The psuedo pretense of sinserity and well wishing.

    But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."

    Just out of curiosity but were there any type of dues or money exchanged with this group? This makes me think of that.

    So, I don't get it. Are they talking about karma "teaching me a lesson" as totally separate from their wishes and actions or are they spurring karma on (and I know some of these people well enough to think it's the latter)?

    I would say the latter. But you do not mention your position in this so it's difficult to say whether it is spurring Karma to act against you or your own sense of Karma to act as a returning force back to them.

    Here's why this is important to me: I don't think karma can be directed by persons

    In the Western mode I agree. In the Eastern mode of changing future Karmic returns I think it can be directed by the individual that will experience it.

    - in fact, I think it's pretty arrogant to think so. Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do.

    I disagree in that I can make a statement to the effect of what I want or hope your Karma will do to you. Not only make it but hope your consideration of my desire is sufficient to make you carryout my desire.
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post

    Think about this very discussion this is fallout of their influence and operation of karmic forces. Perhaps not the intent they desired but a cause with this discussion being the effect.

    I see karma as a force of nature - like gravity.

    To me that is more of the Western notion of Karmic return.

    It would be really silly of me to try to enforce gravity. That's why I'm always puzzled when people try to use karma as a weapon.

    The thing with any weapon is the manner in which it is used. If I believe you will get defensive or possibly return to my fold by the suggestion then I have achieved my goal. Under Western notions your karmic forces have been put into motion.

    What do you think? Should we try to dictate, speed up, slow down, etc. people's karma - or is it silly to think it's even possible?

    Again depends upon which model one is working from. Eastern notion then can be done to speed up or diminish the rate except for the future.

    Western notion indicates that any action can be done so in the here and now.

    I know I've already tipped my hat as to how I feel on this topic, but I still encourage anyone to disagree with me if they feel differently.


    I think that if one is working under the notion of the typical construct of Western working then they have succeeded. Not purely in the notion of causing negative returns but in inspiring or causing active consideration of the possibility.

    If it has in any way made you re-consider the position of returning to the fold then it has two fold worked upon you.

    Where I disagree with the typical notion of Western influence is that under that premise karmic return is not always a negative but can be a positive motivator.

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  • Vampiel
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Hill View Post
    So, I don't get it.
    Its easy

    There are several messages where people say things like, "We still care about you" or "We'll always respect you despite your leaving" or whatever.
    This is their way of validating themselves, see im a good person so im going to tell you that I respect you still. Its their way of reassuring themselves that they are right and not you.

    But then the same people (often in the same messages) say things like, "I hope karma busts your a$$" or "If I have anything to do with it, karma will rip you to shreds over this."
    And this is how they really feel about it. They are angry with your decision and thats how they are projecting it to you. Sounds like they have a bit of resentment.

    Nothing to do with karma or trying to teach you a lesson. They are just pissed and trying to make themselves feel better.
    Last edited by Vampiel; May 7th, 2009, 06:04 PM.

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  • Phoenix Blue
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Brooks
    I'm assuming they were using the term "karma" in the Western sense rather than the Eastern sense.
    I'd replace "Western" with "bastardized," but that's just me.

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  • Polypseudonymous Rex
    replied
    Ok - now that I look back over the original post, I can see part of it was badly worded.

    I said, "Yes, I can tell someone to be careful how their actions will return to them, but I can't tell them what I want or hope karma will do." But that's misleading. I CAN, in fact, want or hope what might happen to them, but I can't will it. Just as I can tell someone to go jump off a cliff and hope that gravity works but not direct gravity to do it.

    I hope that makes more sense.

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