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  • A lil more on Satanism :)

    AFter posting the Church of Lucifer thing, i decided to show the other side of the coin, which happens to be my namesake. May i present, www.churchofsatan.org ! :D Anyway, heres a nice little piece.

    Why call it Satanism?

    Dr. LaVey has answered this question many times in his writings and in interviews but, apparently, it’s a tough concept for some people. It is usually accompanied by, “You know, everything you say makes a lot of sense. But that name, ‘Satan’, is a real turn-off for people. Why don’t you just call it ‘Humanism’ or something—you’d get a lot more followers.”

    Of course, the first point is, we don’t need a lot of followers; we need more leaders in society in general and Satanism is a philosophy of leaders. That’s the glib answer. The more complete answer is that Satanists find more strength in images of defiance, fortitude against all odds and self-determination than we do in the image of the guy hanging on the Cross. We are sickened by the complacency, hypocrisy, prejudice, and self-righteousness that most conventional religions (including “Wicca” and “paganism” as they are currently defined) encourage in people. When my back is up against the wall, I’m not strengthened by Jesus’ supposed martyrdom, or by the idea of praying and being saved, or of mooning over some glorious afterlife (so I don’t have to take responsibility for this one). Satanists’ scorn for such drivel is in our hard-wiring, and we could no more “give our lives over to Christ” than we could cut off one of our own limbs. The word “Satan” is the first hurdle to understanding what we’re trying to get across. Question, challenge all things, especially what you’ve been taught about supposed enemies. Sort out the truth from convenient myths. Words are magical and potent—use them effectively.

    People have tried to dismiss Satanism, saying, “Well, Satan is only a construction of the Christian church so Satanism is only an inversion of Christianity. It’s still dependent on Christianity; Satanists are just Christians who want to play bad boy.” That’s missing the broader point. Christians didn’t invent Satan. There is always a Satan, an adversary, in every culture. There is always the figure who represents the Dark Side, the unexplored realms, the prideful beast who defies the norm. God, on the other hand, generally represents conventionality, predictability, the safety of normality, the comfort of the larger group and the rewards of staying within the bounds of propriety. That interaction is necessary to life and progress—not “good” versus “evil,” but that constant interchange between a need for conventionality and a need for risk-taking by those few who are compelled to explore the murky regions. The blasphemers and heretics take chances, clearing the path for others to follow. Christianity didn’t invent the idea of that interplay any more than they invented the idea of Lucifer; they just happen to represent the status quo at this time. So, in a Judeo-Christian society, we call ourselves Satanists.

    We create our gods, not the other way around. In a very real way, we construct them and define them—and they, in turn, guide and define us. We are a world of storytellers. If aliens really were studying our various cultures on this planet, they might be quite perplexed about our obsession with fiction. We read novels, we go to movies, we watch fictions on television, we’ve carved them on walls for centuries—even our history is filtered through dramatic storylines. Why? We use stories about our heroes, our gods, our demons, our successes, failures, dreams and nightmares in order to preserve what has happened, to communicate our common values, to work through our common fears, to ritualize, instruct and have fun. Humans shine when events become unconventional. That’s the basis for all good tales. What do you do when you’re the underdog, fighting for survival? What do you do when God is dead and there are no rules? What kind of character or honor or sense of justice do you really have when there’s no God to judge you, no threat of eternity in the fiery furnace? That’s when things get interesting. Step beyond the boundaries and see what you might find within yourself. Satanists want to cut through the bullshit, challenge themselves and others, and enjoy life. Read on; perhaps you’ll begin to see your own dark reflection through the words on your computer screen.



    Magistra Blanche Barton

    Church of Satan


    After going through things that might be informative, i noticed that i was noticing things i hadnt noticed before. As you have probably noticed, Luciferianism, while sharing near-identical views with Satanism, is much more spiritual. On a personal note, i fall in between the two, so you should be getting fairly equal amounts of both.

    To expect the worst is to never have an unpleasant surprise.


    Men often mistake the strength of their emotion for the strength of their argument.

    The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic.

    I am... <a href="http://www.imood.com/users/Marchosias"><img src="http://moods.imood.com/display/uname=Marchosias/fg=FFFFFF/bg=330066/imood.gif" alt="The current mood of Marchosias" border="0"></a>

  • #2
    Thanks, Marchosias. I think you've cleared up an important question there. When people say "why use the name Satanism if it's not about Satan!" I'm reminded of people who tell us not to use the term witch or Pagan because they were at times used as insults. One has to remember to dig into what the term means and how it's used before ruling it out.

    I find these of particular interest as well;

    The 9 Satanic Sins - Stupidity, pretentiousness, solipsism, self-deceit, herd conformity, lack of perspective, forgetfulness of past orthodoxies, counterproductive pride, and lack of aesthetics.

    Comment


    • #3
      Marchosias -

      How would you describe the person of Satan from a scriptural and mainly New Testament perspective?

      thanks,

      shaz
      -I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.

      "I did not stumble into His light, He crashed into my darkness."

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, from a New Testament perspective, I would describe him as the New Testament does. But I dont have a New Testament perspective. However, from my perspective, as a Satanist, i would describe him as a symbol, one which nearly all cultures have had, which is of "evil". Or the particular concept of such that has been programmed into billions of poor victems. In reality, i would describe the Satan concept/principal as the release of man's TRUE, carnal side. This is often called the dark side. We all have one, and to subdue, and ignore it would seem proposterous to one such as myself. In fact, you should read my other post. There are four.."enities", referred to as the Four Crown Princes of Hell, which again, represent different sides of human nature. It goes without saying that I am not exactly "spiritual" in that i dont just "believe. But there are certain things that might be considered mystical, that i know are real. Just as real as I am sitting here. Forgive me for rambling so horribly, I hope i managed to clear SOMETHING up, hehe.

        To expect the worst is to never have an unpleasant surprise.


        Men often mistake the strength of their emotion for the strength of their argument.

        The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic.

        I am... <a href="http://www.imood.com/users/Marchosias"><img src="http://moods.imood.com/display/uname=Marchosias/fg=FFFFFF/bg=330066/imood.gif" alt="The current mood of Marchosias" border="0"></a>

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks, Marchosias! While I'm not Satanic nor do I feel that what Satanists believe is what I believe, it's always interesting to learn something new. I'm sick of everyone denouncing "alternative" religions as "wrong" or "sick." I did my own research into Satanism a few years ago. What I found I understood, but I've never spoken in depth with someone who was of that path. Thanks for your information! Keep it coming. You have at least one eager pupil.
          what if everything around you
          isn't quite as it seems?
          what if all the world you think you know
          is an elaborate dream?
          and if you look at your reflection
          is that what you want it to be?
          what if you could look right through the cracks
          would you find yourself--
          find yourself afraid to see?

          what if all the world's inside of your head
          just creations of your own?
          your devils and your gods all the living and the dead
          and you're really all alone
          you can live in this illusion
          you can choose to believe
          you keep looking but you can't find the woods
          while you're hiding in the trees

          ~ Nine Inch Nails : Right Where It Belongs

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmm, Marchosias, I'm confused about some of your post. If you could clear it up that'd be great, I'm trying to understand more where you're coming from. You said, "However, from my perspective, as a Satanist, i would describe him as a symbol", and then "In reality, i would describe the Satan concept/principal as..." and "Satanism is a philosophy of leaders" and "We create our gods, not the other way around", so Satan from your perspective is a figurehead, a representation, not an actual figure or being, correct? God is as well I take it?
            Hmm what was I going to ask... shoot i can't remember. oh that's right, heh sorry, anyway what do you personally believe about the earth's origin?
            Also, you spoke of evil being basically at the core of human nature, or at the least one inherent aspect of human nature. How does this correlate to moral or ethical standards?
            Next, you said, "It goes without saying that I am not exactly "spiritual" in that i dont just "believe. But there are certain things that might be considered mystical, that i know are real.", so this means that you don't believe something spiritual can also be real? Also, from what I understand, the word "spiritual" implies that there are two opposing supernatural forces, in other words, Christians believe that you don't have to follow Jesus to be spiritual, but that we are all at our very core, spiritual beings. What say you to this?
            Thanks! I'm always eager to learn more
            "Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Psyche Ague
              Thanks, Marchosias! While I'm not Satanic nor do I feel that what Satanists believe is what I believe, it's always interesting to learn something new. I'm sick of everyone denouncing "alternative" religions as "wrong" or "sick." I did my own research into Satanism a few years ago. What I found I understood, but I've never spoken in depth with someone who was of that path. Thanks for your information! Keep it coming. You have at least one eager pupil.
              >sigh< I still haven't had time to read all of what you've posted, but I see many similarities in what I've read so far and you have cleared up some of my own misperceptions.

              Marchosias, what do you think about the concept that Satanists must have Christian beliefs in order to believe in Satan?
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Freyja
                Marchosias, what do you think about the concept that Satanists must have Christian beliefs in order to believe in Satan?
                Well obviously I'm not Marchosias, so I hope I'm not too out of turn here but I don't agree with that thinking at all.

                Saying Satanists must have Christian beliefs is fundamentally a misunderstanding of how Satan is worked with here. He is The adversary, an archetypal representation, not just the evil bad guy in Christian belief.

                Similarly I tend to think of YHVH outside of Christian or Jewish etc. beliefs as a manifestation of All - ultimate divine, transcending names.

                Again, not marchosias, not answering for him, just putting forth my own comments with no offense intended -

                so Satan from your perspective is a figurehead, a representation, not an actual figure or being, correct? God is as well I take it?
                Yep and Yep, in my case. I think of them as archetypes; a way to connect with energies.

                Also, you spoke of evil being basically at the core of human nature, or at the least one inherent aspect of human nature. How does this correlate to moral or ethical standards?
                Presumably, moral and ethical standards are a way we live and are based on our experiences and beliefs on what is "good" or "evil" or "right" or "wrong".

                Next, you said, "It goes without saying that I am not exactly "spiritual" in that i dont just "believe. But there are certain things that might be considered mystical, that i know are real.", so this means that you don't believe something spiritual can also be real?

                I think, in this case, it's not that spiritual things must be mutually exclusive from real things, but that they are also not interchangeable.

                For me, I know what I know and have experienced, even if others haven't - they may believe or they may not. But just because someone believes it doesn't necessarily make it real, and when you know something you don't believe it; you know it.

                I think it's more or less "I'll believe it when I see it" rather then "I believe it without proof".

                Also, from what I understand, the word "spiritual" implies that there are two opposing supernatural forces, in other words, Christians believe that you don't have to follow Jesus to be spiritual, but that we are all at our very core, spiritual beings. What say you to this?
                Thanks! I'm always eager to learn more
                I don't think the world "spiritual" implies that at all. For instance in Wicca, with God and Goddess, they aren't opposing. They also aren't considered supernatural per se, but instead natural.

                I think at our core most of us find spirituality useful and interesting, but I don't feel it's necessary for our existence. It is possible to not have spirituality.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting, thx for your reply. A few more ?s...


                  - "I think of them as archetypes; a way to connect with energies." (i forgot how to do those fun quote things, so quotation marks will have to do, heh)
                  What is the source of these energies? Is there a concept of good and evil that Satanism follows? If so, which do Satanist believers follow, and why?

                  - "I think of them as archetypes; a way to connect with energies."
                  dictionary.com defines archetype as "An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype", "An ideal example of a type; quintessence", and "In Jungian psychology, an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious." So, that said, what exactly IS this 'way' to connect with energies? Is it a mentality? Also, I'm confused why Satanism goes by the name Satanism if Satan isn't the core element of Satanism, i mean I guess a label doesn't really matter a whole lot, I'm just more curious on this one. Oh, also, you said Satan is an archetype, er, so why is he called Satan as opposed to, I don't know, energy-medium?

                  - "Presumably, moral and ethical standards are a way we live and are based on our experiences and beliefs on what is "good" or "evil" or "right" or "wrong"."
                  Is there are a spiritual standard, a written standard, or both, none, more than that, etc. unique to Satanism, that Satanists derive these standards?

                  - "I think at our core most of us find spirituality useful and interesting, but I don't feel it's necessary for our existence. It is possible to not have spirituality."
                  When Aristotle spoke about spirit, he was talking about "that by virtue of which an organism is alive". So he related it to direct correlation to life. So to him apparently, whether spirituality was "necessary" was sort of irrelevant, like it wasn't an issue of necessity, but it was a concept inherent to living things; in other words, spirituality exists in living things, it isn't something you adapt or choose to participate in, according to Aristotle. Comments?
                  "Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi windex, I (Ankhesen Sekhmet) sometimes use this account too. I just wanted to be clear that this is the same person so there's no confusion.

                    What is the source of these energies?
                    Life. Love. Growth.

                    Is there a concept of good and evil that Satanism follows? If so, which do Satanist believers follow, and why?
                    Satanists don't follow "good" *or* "evil", they work towards satisfying their own needs and thinking for themselves. They recognize that people consider this "evil" sometimes, but their intention is not to be good or evil.

                    "An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype", "An ideal example of a type; quintessence", and "In Jungian psychology, an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious." So, that said, what exactly IS this 'way' to connect with energies?
                    It's the same way a model or prototype is used to connect with an idea, and the same way a pattern is used and applied to life.

                    Also, I'm confused why Satanism goes by the name Satanism if Satan isn't the core element of Satanism, i mean I guess a label doesn't really matter a whole lot, I'm just more curious on this one.
                    Because Satan is used as an archetype of the adversary. There are those that believe his original purpose in the bible was to act as an adversary, as the "other guy" in any conflict, rather then a specific unique entity. There are resources to that, and further explanations on Satanism sites, if you feel like looking.

                    One in particular that is useful is http://www.churchofsatan.org/faq.html

                    I'd like to start another thread to discuss more on another site I would recommend, so see that as well.

                    Oh, also, you said Satan is an archetype, er, so why is he called Satan as opposed to, I don't know, energy-medium?
                    Same reason, I suppose, YHVH is called YHVH, Sekhmet is called Sekhmet, Zeus is called Zeus, and so on. I could call you a carbon-being too, for instance, but you have a name unique unto yourself.

                    Is there are a spiritual standard, a written standard, or both, none, more than that, etc. unique to Satanism, that Satanists derive these standards?
                    Satanists have their own standards, statements, and principles. See the site I mentioned and the other thread I will start. I'd like to provide a bit of an overview of these things for you.

                    Comments?
                    I guess I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here - that's a nice thought for Aristotle to have, and certainly it's great to subscribe to that. I don't particularly agree.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well I have no problem with Satanism either way

                      I have no problem with Satanists, I do believe there is a deity or Demi-God named Satan, and that He basically represents all things that are human nature, which if you think about it isn't really too terrible. Satanism and Paganism are two different things, but we shouldn't go out of our way to avoid them either. Unless they are real jerks! But I see nothing wrong with it. Besides, I like sin, its sinsational, man I hope I don't get lynched for that bad joke! , its very life related, almost like a philosophy, and thats all I have to say.
                      Last edited by aluokaloo; March 4th, 2004, 04:20 PM.
                      Crying "cherry-picking!" with one breath and "diversity!" with the next doesn't work either.~brymble
                      "Sometimes the Light at the End of the Tunnel is really a Cranky Dragon waiting to roast your ass!"

                      In Darkness I Know Myself



                      Close friends with: Yarrow Elfglow, Czechwoods, Rudas Starblaze, Stormbeard, Philosophia, The Woman Monster, Rick and Elise, Sacred Sin David19.....


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                      • #12
                        It’s a pointful religion, as I found out when my confusion of it with devil worship was cleared (by Muireannach). I don’t see myself joining it, though. Paganism is unconventional enough, I don’t want to be even further marginalised.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To me it's a valid path:

                          Seeing as I believe in many of the ideals that Satanism emulates. Such as individualism and intelligence. But I also believe that to be a leader one has to learn to be a follower. Being a leader doesn't constitute being an egoist. Most *good* leaders are those people who understand their cause and the people who follow their cause. Without understanding, you can't be a leader. At least that is what I believe. So in this case I am not sure if I would call Satanists a leader spirituality, but instead I would call it training to be an independent thinker spirituality and that is a stepping stone to being a leader. So who knows? Just what I believe

                          Love,
                          Mist


                          The Queen of nightly Rainbows

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                          • #14
                            Jesus Christ on a wrecking ball, how many times do we have to dredge up this old topic? Nobody pays attention, everyone just repeats exactly what they said the last 8 times a thread like this has come up!

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