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  • #16
    I don't think either created either. I think we all came about through evolution of the universe.
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    It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
    It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
    And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
    Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    ~From Ulysses, by Alfred Lord Tennyson

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    • #17
      How 'bout this?

      We created the gods to create us.

      Of course, when I say "we" I mean "we" as humanity, in general -- and the peoples that, if anything, gave the gods and goddesses their names that we use today.

      The Goddess of my affection had only one part in my making: my making was a natural process.

      I worship Nature proper and not the "entity" of her. I call her a name simply because she has one, but, a seed is a seed. It's a physical being that can sit right in my hand. Whether it is I or Nature (the breezes, the animals, the insects...) that will plant that seed, it germinates, it roots, it grows, it "leafs" or "flowers" and I or Nature will make a harvest of plenty of both the fruit (or leaf, whichever is harvested) and the seed -- to begin the process all over again.

      Perhaps we teach, or are taught about the gods just to give a bit of focus on what Nature truly is. I mean, the "devil" story has kept young children VERY well behaved for centuries and usually isn't that unbelievable to their innocent minds. Various gods and goddesses from one pantheon, are the same in other parts of the world and go by different names -- but they're still the same.

      I believe very much in practicality -- NOT disbelief in the gods, mind you -- I still worship Nature as deity surrounding me (but not in the "typical" state of mind where it's some spirit hovering next to me or over me or in Circle and being personified by a handcrafted article -- maybe beautifully handcrafted, but handcrafted all the same, with the focus during ritual on a statue instead of the ritual at hand, whichever it may be.)

      When I call upon the deities, I (as a solitary) very rarely even so much as speak...if I'm outside, it's the big candle pot with a rack over to hold the cauldron of water with whatever is gonna get thrown in -- all the elements together for ritual or spell-casting purposes, if indoors, a potpourri pot works just the same for the same ends.

      Now, I don't wish to step on any toes and I'll be the first to say that mine is not THE way or what not. I'm just adding my part to it.

      )O(
      Calder

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ~*FloraCove*~
        Does that make you feel better?

        Well...it cofuses the snot out of me...and unlike some I take confusion as a good sign. I still dont quite understand what you are saying Flora...but I am trying to get my head wrapped around it.
        93,93

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Nallia
          I don't think either created either. I think we all came about through evolution of the universe.

          What created the universe? Where did it come from?
          93,93

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          • #20
            Originally posted by calderthesolitary

            Now, I don't wish to step on any toes and I'll be the first to say that mine is not THE way or what not. I'm just adding my part to it.

            )O(
            Calder

            My toes are fine! =)

            While I dont necessarily agree with our viewpoint, I thank you for sharing it Calder. Its interesting to see how others percieve this question. =)
            93,93

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Toad
              What created the universe? Where did it come from?
              The universe created itself through the Big Bang. Everything and everyone else in it came about through evolution and chance.
              Our Rules|Copyright Policy |FAQ

              It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
              It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
              And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
              Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
              One equal temper of heroic hearts,
              Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
              To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

              ~From Ulysses, by Alfred Lord Tennyson

              Comment


              • #22
                And what created the Big Bang?
                Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
                Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Toad
                  Did I get a nibble then?
                  Hook, line, and sinker! Just for you though.

                  Ok first off, why ask why? Does it matter who created who? I mean if you have a firm belief in God, will knowing or attempting to understand if it's a comfort made up to soothe you change anything..for the better? How could it?

                  Say man has been pondering this whole creation thing forever, as I am sure we have. Did somebody sometime just go, "Ok, I got it there was this /these Gods that did it all and they are magik and all powerful and we will never understand their power..praise them."It was an attempt to make everything go away..the fear of the unknown. Maybe it worked for a long time...but of course there always were and always will be the people who say, "Wait a minute, this sounds a little too much like a Disney movie to me. Where is the proof?"

                  For some belief in , worship of and complete reliance on diety is a, well pardon the pun, but a Godsend. It gets them through the hardest times in life and it gives them great joy and reason to celebrate frequently and I see that as a great gift, whether it be based on a fairy tale or fact. Then there are the other people who the idea of having to just trust..well it screws them up and they constantly struggle with it. They think the above mentioned folks are nuts or living under false ideals. Either way..I say who seems to be the happiest?

                  So..did someone just come up with this idea to answer the unanswerable question..or did God present the answer to them once they trully sought it and were ready for the answer? Hhhhmmm? That seems to be the question of a lifetime. Some will swear on everything they hold dear that they know God and others will stand in defiance of that idea and ridicule them.

                  For some reason this comes to mind. Do with it what you will. What came first..the first crippled person or the first crutch to get them where they need to be? Did the person who invented the crutch in turn create more needy, crippled folks? What difference does it make if there are plenty of crutches to go around. If you break something and need a crutch there will be one taylor made to fit your needs, even if that need changes. Or you can hobble along stubbornly refusing the help..whatever works for you.

                  Sorry if my response is more garbled than usual..it is after all Monday!

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                  • #24
                    Asking why allows us to rethink our own views, and get into / renew a touch with our own beliefs.
                    Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
                    Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Xentor
                      Asking why allows us to rethink our own views, and get into / renew a touch with our own beliefs.
                      Well, don't give him the answers Xentor!! LOL! I know what you are saying..I just really have to think that this is one of those things that can be so overanalysed that it threatens to dissolve the faith that people depend on. It's like the disappointment on a childs face when they find out there really is no Santa Clause..only ten times worse.

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                      • #26
                        OK, sorry!
                        Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
                        Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

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                        • #27
                          If I didn't have a God given to me, I would create one out of sheer boredome

                          Who created whom? That's a long and involved arguement that's been going on for longer that I can remember. I'm not sure that any final decision has yet bet been agreed upon and as far as I am concerned, I don't care. Having my own God/Goddesses is like having my own set of toy soldiers, I can do with them as I like. Just so, I can create my own reality and that's OK as long as I can live in it.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Semele
                            Ok first off, why ask why? Does it matter who created who? I mean if you have a firm belief in God, will knowing or attempting to understand if it's a comfort made up to soothe you change anything..for the better? How could it?
                            We have had discussion around this issue on numerous occasions. I do understand your point. I think that perhaps you are missing one key component though…that being a firm belief in deity. I gather that you have a view on this subject and are quite comfortable with it. Then there are the folks that don’t have an established view point. Some of those without an established point of view are naturally curious about the subject…they are searching for ‘their’ truth about deity. When these two pieces exist the discussions of this nature help in the process of establishing their personal ‘truth’ about deity.

                            I would also point out that if one IS enjoying an established view of deity, then some discussion or debate about its nature should not be detrimental to them. If they are moved by such discussion in a medium such as this (anonymous, Internet message board) then I would suggest that their ‘belief’ was not as established as they may think OR perhaps they gleaned some piece of information that has evolved their views. In any of these cases I would find discussion a positive thing.

                            Originally posted by Semele
                            For some belief in , worship of and complete reliance on diety is a, well pardon the pun, but a Godsend. It gets them through the hardest times in life and it gives them great joy and reason to celebrate frequently and I see that as a great gift, whether it be based on a fairy tale or fact. Then there are the other people who the idea of having to just trust..well it screws them up and they constantly struggle with it. They think the above mentioned folks are nuts or living under false ideals. Either way..I say who seems to be the happiest?
                            In my experience the happiest are the folks that can question their beliefs, learn and grow. The rest are sheep…and while they may resent being referred to as a sheep, deep down they know they are and it pisses them off.

                            I would hope (though I understand that this hope is most likely ill placed) that folks who frequent a Theology and Philosophy forum on a Pagan message board would already know that discussions in said forum are simply ideas and beliefs of other humans who by their very nature are fallible. I would never expect to find ‘the answer’ in a forum…and I hope the rest of the visitors here understand that as well.

                            That out of the way…the reason I introduced this was to hear differing view points and hopefully learn something in the process. Nothing more…

                            This post was not aimed at the sheep in other words.


                            Originally posted by Semele
                            So..did someone just come up with this idea to answer the unanswerable question..or did God present the answer to them once they trully sought it and were ready for the answer? Hhhhmmm? That seems to be the question of a lifetime. Some will swear on everything they hold dear that they know God and others will stand in defiance of that idea and ridicule them.
                            Interesting Semele… If you are asking me…I will say that the individual will determine their own answer based on conditioning(the sheep) or in a few cases, intellect.


                            Originally posted by Semele
                            For some reason this comes to mind. Do with it what you will. What came first..the first crippled person or the first crutch to get them where they need to be? Did the person who invented the crutch in turn create more needy, crippled folks? What difference does it make if there are plenty of crutches to go around. If you break something and need a crutch there will be one taylor made to fit your needs, even if that need changes. Or you can hobble along stubbornly refusing the help..whatever works for you.
                            I am sorry Semele…you lost me here. Admittedly I have the cold/flu junk that is going round so I am not firing on all cylinders.
                            93,93

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Semele
                              I just really have to think that this is one of those things that can be so overanalysed that it threatens to dissolve the faith that people depend on. It's like the disappointment on a childs face when they find out there really is no Santa Clause..only ten times worse.
                              If a discussion of this nature 'dissolves the faith that people depend on' then I submit to you that its simply a matter of time before that faith will be tested in other ways and will dissolve itself.
                              93,93

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Toad
                                I gather that you have a view on this subject and are quite comfortable with it.
                                Ya really think so?

                                Originally posted by Toad
                                I would also point out that if one IS enjoying an established view of deity, then some discussion or debate about its nature should not be detrimental to them.
                                Agreed. My why ask why attitude wasn't meant to be taken as me saying "you guys shouldn't be asking these things, you will confuse people." It was just a silly little thing I do..devil's advocate I guess. Although I must admit i have met many people who are so much on the side of there being no God that they go overboard challenging everyone els's ideas of god. They are just as annoying to me as the sheep. "prove it!!" I swear they would even argue the existance of the air we breathe if you listen long enough.


                                Originally posted by Toad
                                The rest are sheep…and while they may resent being referred to as a sheep, deep down they know they are and it pisses them off.
                                Baaaaa!! LOL! Your damn skippy it pisses them off.

                                Originally posted by Toad
                                I would never expect to find ‘the answer’ in a forum…and I hope the rest of the visitors here understand that as well.
                                Man, you are full of public service announcements today! We need to hire you to edit all the posts and make us all politically correct!

                                Originally posted by Toad
                                Interesting Semele… If you are asking me…I will say that the individual will determine their own answer based on conditioning(the sheep) or in a few cases, intellect.
                                What about the happy sheep? You know the ones who are perfectly content being sheep. Do you think they are missing out on a certain level of connection? Just curious.


                                Originally posted by Toad
                                I am sorry Semele…you lost me here. Admittedly I have the cold/flu junk that is going round so I am not firing on all cylinders.
                                That's ok, we should be making perfect sense together because my cylinders are cracked today!

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