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  • Teachers paid based on student grades?

    SAINT PAUL, Minn. - One of the main things in Governor Tim Pawlenty’s message is that teacher pay should be based on student performance.

    Pawlenty's education bill would change the way teachers are licensed, paid and given tenure. When addressing the race to the top education funding, governor Pawlenty strikes the tone of a track coach.

    "The only question for Minnesota is ‘do you want to lead or be late to the game?’ Minnesota's tradition is to lead," said Pawlenty.

    Minnesota finished 20th in the first round for race to the top. The $175 million in federal dollars is going to each Tennessee and Delaware.
    The governor believes seven proposals will help Minnesota win in the second round and improve education for the future.
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  • #2
    I don't agree with that at all. Sometimes a kid just doesn't get it. That was me in Math. I got a C, and that's honestly the best I could do. I just don't understand math very well once we get past the basics.

    I think the parents should start having to critique teachers, honestly. The pay should be based off of student/parent/peer review, honestly. If they really want to reform pay.
    Now this is the Law of the Jungle - as old and as true as the Sky. And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack. ~ Rudyard Kipling

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    • #3
      I am not a fan of most teachers but I do not believe they deserve anything like that. Placing 20th isn't great but that is a drastic step to forcing teachers to work harder and for students to be forced to have better grades. Personally I refuse to do homework outside of school, if I don't get it done in class my teachers are well aware its not going to be done.... But that is not their fault.... I decide not to do the work and let my grade fall.

      Also, teachers would probably start being awful to struggling students if their grades are dropping. But who could blame them? Nobody can afford pay cuts.
      Where the calm fields of snow become one with the sky
      I am there; I am waiting as time passes by
      I set up the weather to suit how you feel
      Drop rain down with wishes, build grace out of steel

      Lost northern star
      Buried in sorrow,
      I'll guard your mind
      Let demons howl outside.

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      • #4
        Sounds like a recipe for grade inflation.

        If we were starting from scratch, I could support a system that based awards on each class' performance on standardized tests rather than grades. However, since there is such wide discrepancy among students, I would rather see them based on the performance of the school as a whole. I would establish a baseline and make extra funds available based on superior performance. These funds would be distributed among personnel and facilities.

        Teachers would then get a guaranteed minimum salary, with bonuses based on the performance of the school as a whole and each individual teacher's contribution to that performance. The school administration could also parcel out class awards, even to those classes that did not perform well objectively, if those classes showed significant improvement -- such as awarding the Sweathogs a class trip for pulling a 70% on the standardized tests -- but it would be strictly up to the local school. Need new uniforms? Need new scenery for a class play? Well, get those grades up, guys.

        It might instill a new sense of community spirit in the schools. Imagine: the football team dependent on the nerds for new uniforms. No more ducking heads in toilets ... It could also make academic excellence worth something in the eyes of the students again.
        Last edited by Tom Terrific; May 6th, 2010, 02:27 PM.
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        • #5
          I see the potential for abuse, but I have to admit it is better than the current system. The problem is neither are great. I could see mixing several factors, including tenure, student performance, parent/peer/student reviews, attendance, behavior (any negative actions taken against the teacher), improvement in their own education, ect.
          There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. H.L. Mencken

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          • #6
            Ah the old potential for abuse excuse. Let's ban anything that has the potential for abuse. No more alcohol, because some people abuse it. No more cars, because some people use them to run people over and commit crimes. No more Internet, because some people might use it to transfer child pornography.

            Then there is the worn out grade inflation excuse. We already have that thanks to the standardized tests.(Sorry Tom) Schools spend so much time cramming the kids for the tests so they do better so the school can get more public monies. Hells, all of my kids aced the standardized tests and yet most of them did not get better than C's overall in the classroom. If anything, the standardized tests are the least effective way of measuring student progress.

            Paying the teachers for results would be fine if the teachers alone are designing the curriculum and for classroom performance. If their hands are being tied by state and federal policies, then state and federal administrators should pay a bonus to the teachers for doing so.

            Parent review, sorry but parents aren't always part of the solution, sometimes they are a large part of the problem. they don't want their kids learning something required for the course and still want their kids to get full credit for the course. They want the teacher to do all the teaching and do little to support those efforts at home. Are the parents going to have to pay a cash penalty for not supporting the teacher's efforts?

            Peer review? Don't make me laugh. Peer review is such a flawed method of examination that it should never be used for the education of children.

            What gets me is the first round is granting $175 million to Delaware, which has less than a million people total. The same amount is granted to Tennessee, which has a population of over 6 million.

            That is the real issue; the inequitable distribution of funds to states. The money should be disbursed based on the enrollment records of schools from the previous year rather than the current disbursement methods. Then instead of 50 competing states with varying levels of performance, we could get 50 cooperating states and a more realistic picture of exactly what improvements need to be made.
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            • #7
              this is a great idea if you want all of the students to good grades regardless of how well they actually doing.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Terra Mater View Post
                Then there is the worn out grade inflation excuse. We already have that thanks to the standardized tests.(Sorry Tom) Schools spend so much time cramming the kids for the tests so they do better so the school can get more public monies. Hells, all of my kids aced the standardized tests and yet most of them did not get better than C's overall in the classroom. If anything, the standardized tests are the least effective way of measuring student progress.
                Well, simply calling my observation of the potential for "grade inflation" "worn out" and an "excuse" doesn't make either so. Grade inflation is a fact.

                The tests must be designed so that teachers can't beat the system. There is no way you can totally eradicate test-taking skills as a factor in performance; but that doesn't mean the tests won't test. Doctors still have to pass their boards, and attorneys still have to pass the bar.

                Bar exams are terrifying to many, because they aren't comprehensive. The questions are divided according to subject matter, but there is no attempt to cover the gamut of material within that subject. Someone taking the test must be prepared to address anything within that area. It strikes me that the same thing could be done in grade school and secondary school. Since the teacher would have little idea what was to be on the test, there would be little she could do to prepare her students to game it.

                I don't believe it couldn't be done. It might not be perfect, but nothing is.
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                • #9
                  It'll be awesome when teachers start getting docked pay or fired because they happen to get a few slackers, or have some mainstreamed students with severe learning difficulties they aren't trained to deal with, or some students who figure out that if they do badly enough their teachers get in trouble instead of them. Or simply get two different quality classrooms in successive years, which happens all the time.

                  As for the "potential for abuse" thing, there are already school districts where teachers are not permitted to give students failing grades even if the students deserve them. Rules like this are effectively the same thing, as the result would still involve teachers occasionally getting in trouble for grading their students accurately.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Terra Mater View Post
                    Ah the old potential for abuse excuse. Let's ban anything that has the potential for abuse. No more alcohol, because some people abuse it. No more cars, because some people use them to run people over and commit crimes. No more Internet, because some people might use it to transfer child pornography.

                    Then there is the worn out grade inflation excuse. We already have that thanks to the standardized tests.(Sorry Tom) Schools spend so much time cramming the kids for the tests so they do better so the school can get more public monies. Hells, all of my kids aced the standardized tests and yet most of them did not get better than C's overall in the classroom. If anything, the standardized tests are the least effective way of measuring student progress.

                    Paying the teachers for results would be fine if the teachers alone are designing the curriculum and for classroom performance. If their hands are being tied by state and federal policies, then state and federal administrators should pay a bonus to the teachers for doing so.

                    Parent review, sorry but parents aren't always part of the solution, sometimes they are a large part of the problem. they don't want their kids learning something required for the course and still want their kids to get full credit for the course. They want the teacher to do all the teaching and do little to support those efforts at home. Are the parents going to have to pay a cash penalty for not supporting the teacher's efforts?

                    Peer review? Don't make me laugh. Peer review is such a flawed method of examination that it should never be used for the education of children.

                    What gets me is the first round is granting $175 million to Delaware, which has less than a million people total. The same amount is granted to Tennessee, which has a population of over 6 million.

                    That is the real issue; the inequitable distribution of funds to states. The money should be disbursed based on the enrollment records of schools from the previous year rather than the current disbursement methods. Then instead of 50 competing states with varying levels of performance, we could get 50 cooperating states and a more realistic picture of exactly what improvements need to be made.
                    I fully agree in principle...my issue is that teachers are so protected by one of the most powerful unions that there is little to prevent it. I believe if we focused on removing corruption and punishing those who would abuse the system, pay based on performance is ideal. Using your alcohol example, we have a system in place to punish those who sell to minors, those who sell to people who are already way too drunk, and a way to punish those who act improperly while drunk. We do not have that in the school system. If along with this initiative something were to be passed to insure regular oversight of teachers actions, and a severe punishment system, including a database for schools related to teachers who have been caught cheating, this would be a fantastic idea
                    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. H.L. Mencken

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by memnoch View Post
                      I fully agree in principle...my issue is that teachers are so protected by one of the most powerful unions that there is little to prevent it. I believe if we focused on removing corruption and punishing those who would abuse the system, pay based on performance is ideal. Using your alcohol example, we have a system in place to punish those who sell to minors, those who sell to people who are already way too drunk, and a way to punish those who act improperly while drunk. We do not have that in the school system. If along with this initiative something were to be passed to insure regular oversight of teachers actions, and a severe punishment system, including a database for schools related to teachers who have been caught cheating, this would be a fantastic idea
                      That I can totally agree with, up until the part of teacher's pay being based on performance unless the external factors are also considered and the funding iniquities are adressed.
                      Brought to you by the
                      National Association For Addressing Prejudice Against Jackasses (NAFAPAJ).
                      Not all witches are love and light, nor are they all hate and darkness.
                      Some witches are just real mothers - like me.
                      You cannot carve a beautiful sculpture in stone with loving strokes.
                      It takes a hammer, a chisel, and a lot of aggression that needs converted.
                      I am aware of how nasty I come across.
                      If others have the right and freedom to be sweetness and light,
                      I have the right to be spit and vinegar.

                      Comment

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