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  • #16
    Originally posted by magickalmeli View Post
    Its a lot of work, usually you're underappreciated (not in my case, I 've got a great group), you're out the most $ of anyone in the group, and you have to pick up others' slack. Plus you have to be the bad guy if difficult changes need to be made for the good of the group. You have to put what YOU want aside for whats good for the group. And that can. be. hard. sometimes.
    quoted for truth...
    *~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

    Resident Beotch


    It seems some folks confuse "secrets" with Mysteries.
    The Mysteries aren't secret.
    They are there for whoever wishes to seek them out.
    There just aren't any shortcuts.

    That's the Secret.

    Don't ask Life to polish you into a jewel and then complain about all the rough treatment!

    If you're talking shit behind my back - then you're close enough to kiss my ass.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by magickalmeli View Post

      I don't know that I'd call myself an "elder" in any sense, but even leading a coven can correlate to what Lolair mentioned. Its a lot of work, usually you're underappreciated (not in my case, I 've got a great group), you're out the most $ of anyone in the group, and you have to pick up others' slack. Plus you have to be the bad guy if difficult changes need to be made for the good of the group. You have to put what YOU want aside for whats good for the group. And that can. be. hard. sometimes.
      So, so true. Not to mention the fact that you often have to deal with people who want the position or the respect that you have, so they constantly try to undermine your authority or advice.
      Know thyself - and thou shall know all the mysteries of the Gods and of the universe.

      The path of the Mystic is entirely incompatible with the path of the True Believer. The Believer accepts a thing as Truth, and is content. The Believer seeks only Comfort and Certainty. The Mystic deals in Beautiful Lies and Harsh Reality in the search for Truth. In a Mystic's path, there is no Contentment, little Comfort. Certainty is a joke to the Mystic. The Mystic can never be a Believer, because the Mystic must Know.

      Twirling round with this familiar parable. Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
      Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing.

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      • #18
        My first thought was

        http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/pl...more_info.html

        =8-)

        Like others, I don't think that anyone who tries to self-aggrandise is deserving of being considered an "elder".

        I also wonder very much at why someone would want to call themselves "lord" or "lady" somethingorother as a handle for respect. Too much role playing, perhaps.

        One of the chief characteristics I would have for considering someone to be an elder would be a degree of humility. Not a lack of self respect or awareness of their experience and knowledge, but humility.

        gwyn eich byd

        Ffred
        Ticfa Tلlcenn
        Tar muir mercenn
        a thrي thollcenn,
        a chrann crombcenn.

        Canfaid mيchrلbud
        a méis ي n-airthuir a thige;
        fris-gérat a muinter uile:
        Amén, Amén.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ap Dafydd View Post
          My first thought was

          http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/pl...more_info.html

          =8-)

          Like others, I don't think that anyone who tries to self-aggrandise is deserving of being considered an "elder".

          I also wonder very much at why someone would want to call themselves "lord" or "lady" somethingorother as a handle for respect. Too much role playing, perhaps.

          One of the chief characteristics I would have for considering someone to be an elder would be a degree of humility. Not a lack of self respect or awareness of their experience and knowledge, but humility.

          gwyn eich byd

          Ffred
          I will be officiating at my first Initiation this weekend. As Gardner said, "The gods initiate, humans officiate." I like that he said we do this with humility. That in other religions the postulant kneels to the priest, but in Wicca the priest kneels before the postulant in humility. It will be my pleasure to honor my friend and postulant for the work she has done and for the spirituality she shows by kneeling and blessing her feet (etc.).
          ____________
          If you make a customer happy, he'll tell 3 other people.
          If he's not happy, he'll tell 20 others.



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          • #20
            I'd like to add a moment of angst, since we are on the subject of Elders. Very few things piss me off as much as some 18 year old Mormon kid with an "Elder ..." nametag trying to tell me the meaning of life.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by People Warrior View Post
              I'd like to add a moment of angst, since we are on the subject of Elders. Very few things piss me off as much as some 18 year old Mormon kid with an "Elder ..." nametag trying to tell me the meaning of life.
              haha! So true! I always wonder why they (any religion) have the young ones do the recruiting, who have the little handbook memorized, rather than someone who has had years to absorb it and test it and really deeply believe it... is it just that zeal is contagious? Anyway, back on track...

              To me, elder is a bit more than just HP/HPS, even if they are kick-ass and pull it all together time and time again. It's someone who has consistently given to the community and has *generations* of students. I really do think *time* and *experience* matter. Someone can be "wise beyond their years" and that's awesome, but I don't think that makes them an Elder. Likewise, time and experience aren't all that go into the equation either.

              Like the fellow (and his ex-wife) who initiated my parents and my HP/HPS. I certainly don't agree with him on many accounts, but he is an Elder to me. His ex-wife is too. It's hard to say. I just think Grandfather and Grandmother when I'm with them. And I capitalize it in my head, too. ^_^

              Or my godfather and his wife, some of their students have gone on to create another coven, and they are considered Elders to that new coven and *its* students and students' students.

              (I need a better word than student, but it's not coming to me.)

              Of course, *I* would consider them mentors and parental figures, HP and HPS, rather than *Elders*, to me anyhow. I use the term a bit more exclusively than some, I suppose. ^_^

              I rather don't approve of people calling *themselves* Lord or Lady or Elder. If someone else has that huge amount of respect to want to give them a title, that's great, but you don't really get my respect if you self-title. (Internet handles, I just think are silly... if it's like an RPG thing, then whatever... mostly harmless... but IRL, gimme a break.)
              Last edited by Dawa Lhamo; July 24th, 2007, 03:51 PM.
              Before you accuse someone of LYING, please read this first.

              sigpic

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              • #22
                While I realize this will be very unpopular, I feel that to be an Elder, one must have some age with them. Kinda like crone. One cannot become a crone at 18 no matter how wise you are. Wisdom is not necessarily associated with age, but both crone and elder imply not only the wisdom but the experience that comes with age.

                As for Lady, well if you are in Europe, you may have the right to call yourself that by birth. :D My mother informed me very young that she was raising a lady and I was expected to behave accordingly, I forwarded that tradition by telling my son that he was a gentleman and expected to behave as one and my grand daughters are ladies and I frequently inform them of what a lady does or does not do.

                Briefly and non inclusive:
                A lady:
                modulates her tone of voice to be appropriate to the situation
                makes those around her comfortable in her home and in themselves
                does not "make fun" of anyone but can tease a friend
                is understanding but firm
                stands by her morals, ethics, beliefs and standards

                My mom was very clear that being a lady carries responsibility rather than privilege
                Life's journey is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting; "HOLY SHIT!!!! What a ride!"

                A celebrant of nannymas and sarabethvmas

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                • #23
                  For my own part, an Elder is one who has given up a lot for their community, no matter how small, and who has been recognized as a person of wisdom, integrity and humility by those they serve.

                  A good elder does not brag, nor order others about unnecessarily, and indeed may even insist on doing some things themselves. They put up with late night calls, with having various folks in their homes. They are part guide, part counselor, part coach.
                  They know when to kick others in the rear and when to remain silent. They remember that there are no easy answers, and further that there are things that they do not know. An Elder remembers the times when they were the ones cleaning up their own messes, and realize that it could happen again.

                  Some Elders serve in a religious or spiritual capacity and others are more practical. Most Elders are well-experienced not necessarily in beliefs, but in terms of the Mysteries of life and death - whether revealed via ritual or simply life as a whole.
                  Each man performs his service to the Holy according to what he is, not according to what he is not; after all, the sacrifice must not surpass the proper measure of the worshiper. - Iamblichus



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                  • #24
                    As with others...

                    I feel the title and role of Elder is earned and GIVEN.
                    Its not a title I feel one can <i>claim</i> no matter how much they may feel they deserve it.

                    Respect is earned. I will not automatically accept claims at face value.

                    Any who think having claims questioned is disrespectful automatically sets off some warning bells.

                    Anyone who demands respect, a soft hand, certain privileges or rights based off of age or claimed credentials...

                    People who dub themselves or introduce themselves as elders automatically mark themselves for additional scrutiny.

                    It is something earned. It is a respectful title GIVEN by their community. Not taken. AND it is not something that can always be taken from one community to the next... Something many forget.
                    Walking Wolf's Road: A work in progress by D. Burch

                    I'm ANTI-Peta! I will not support them, nor their associates.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lunacie View Post
                      I will be officiating at my first Initiation this weekend. As Gardner said, "The gods initiate, humans officiate." I like that he said we do this with humility. That in other religions the postulant kneels to the priest, but in Wicca the priest kneels before the postulant in humility. It will be my pleasure to honor my friend and postulant for the work she has done and for the spirituality she shows by kneeling and blessing her feet (etc.).
                      That is an excellent point, and a reminder to those who insist hierarchal groups and titles like "priestess" necessitate "better than you" systems of royalty and peasants. What people forget, IMHO, is that priests are servants of the community and of the gods, as are elders. Servants! Does that make you think of someone who is better than everyone else? We are reminded that we are all equal, and some make the time and effort to help those who are in need. To help beginners along while guiding others who aren't new perhaps but are always learning.
                      Om Namah Shivaya.

                      "Im finding seeking the sacred, well, that its rather like falling in love, the harder you seek it, the less likely it is to happen." - Brightshores

                      "When your consciousness is directed outward, mind and world arise. When it is directed inward, it realizes its own Source and returns home into the Unmanifested." ~ Eckhart Tolle

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RainInanna View Post
                        That is an excellent point, and a reminder to those who insist hierarchal groups and titles like "priestess" necessitate "better than you" systems of royalty and peasants. What people forget, IMHO, is that priests are servants of the community and of the gods, as are elders. Servants! Does that make you think of someone who is better than everyone else? We are reminded that we are all equal, and some make the time and effort to help those who are in need. To help beginners along while guiding others who aren't new perhaps but are always learning.
                        Wow, what has it been? A whole year since I initiated my friend? We've had an interesting year, and been through some turbulent weather. Lessons learned the hard way are the kind that really stick with ya, eh?

                        I love the name my friend has given me... Mama Crone. Anyone can be called an "elder" but how many are given a personal name like this?
                        ____________
                        If you make a customer happy, he'll tell 3 other people.
                        If he's not happy, he'll tell 20 others.



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                        • #27
                          I won't lie when i say my idea of an elder is rather stereotypical, when I think elder i think someone of yoda-like or dumbledore-ish wisdom who is extremely patient, old and grandparent-like in how they handle everything from the mundane to the dire to the outright bizarre. you THINK you can shock them, but they merely raise an eyebrow at the silly antics of youth that they remember so well, give you a firm lecture, and a story that shocks you instead. those are just my personal stereotypical views, and no i've never met an elder face-to-face. so please feel free to correct my foolish assumptions.
                          Crying "cherry-picking!" with one breath and "diversity!" with the next doesn't work either.~brymble
                          "Sometimes the Light at the End of the Tunnel is really a Cranky Dragon waiting to roast your ass!"

                          In Darkness I Know Myself



                          Close friends with: Yarrow Elfglow, Czechwoods, Rudas Starblaze, Stormbeard, Philosophia, The Woman Monster, Rick and Elise, Sacred Sin David19.....


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by aluokaloo View Post
                            I won't lie when i say my idea of an elder is rather stereotypical, when I think elder i think someone of yoda-like or dumbledore-ish wisdom who is extremely patient, old and grandparent-like in how they handle everything from the mundane to the dire to the outright bizarre. you THINK you can shock them, but they merely raise an eyebrow at the silly antics of youth that they remember so well, give you a firm lecture, and a story that shocks you instead. those are just my personal stereotypical views, and no i've never met an elder face-to-face. so please feel free to correct my foolish assumptions.
                            That describes an elder on "a good day." Of course, even elders have bad days. But hopefully once they have earned the title of "elder" they know when they're having a bad day and they excuse themselves and go meditate or ground themselves or something.
                            ____________
                            If you make a customer happy, he'll tell 3 other people.
                            If he's not happy, he'll tell 20 others.



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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                              So there seems to be a lot of controversy around the term "Elder" and so I thought I'd make a thread for folks to hash out their ideas in

                              In another thread the question was asked, what defines an Elder. I'm sure everyone has their own answer and I look forward to hearing them.
                              An Elder is someone that I could look to, without hesitation, for guidance, comfort, support, and leadership.

                              I don't think age is a determining factor. Experience, work, effort, compassion, understanding, and a willingness to listen and go above and beyond for those that look to you....

                              That would be my definition.
                              Smart-assery provided free of charge.

                              Der Mann, Der Tiger, Die Legende

                              Ghosted by ~Elise~ & Master Kodiak

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                                that someone calls themselves an Elder
                                there's your answer, right there. HP, HPs, Elder - all those are titles that are given to the person. these aren't emblems that someone gives to himself.

                                ~ Mairwen

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