Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How to deal with those who do not fulfill responsibilities?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How to deal with those who do not fulfill responsibilities?

    How would you deal with a person who doesn't fulfill responsibilities of their particular job role? For example, one job role is to make a few notes about each meeting (seriously, a few- date/why/attendance/focus) and post them to our internal group site. We've had many people in this role, and no one seems to 'remember' to do this? Or if a role involves collecting dues, and they forget at almost every meeting? It seems as though I'm always posting the notes, or asking for dues.

    Also, my group has a mandatory post-initiation study program thats open-ended in regards to when each section should be accomplished (though it should be within one year). Some students need more structure, and need help figuring out when they should be finished with each section of study. But when students don't meet those requirements within the set time- whether they set the goal themselves, or if they had help setting the goal... what should happen?

    I have had a few ideas, but would really appreciate any input or experiences you've had, either as a leader, or even as a member of a group- how things like this were dealt with.
    Ivy Artemisia
    Twilight Spiral Coven [Site | Facebook]
    Hearth and Hedgerow [Site | Etsy Shop]

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ivy Artemisia View Post
    How would you deal with a person who doesn't fulfill responsibilities of their particular job role? For example, one job role is to make a few notes about each meeting (seriously, a few- date/why/attendance/focus) and post them to our internal group site. We've had many people in this role, and no one seems to 'remember' to do this? Or if a role involves collecting dues, and they forget at almost every meeting? It seems as though I'm always posting the notes, or asking for dues.

    Also, my group has a mandatory post-initiation study program thats open-ended in regards to when each section should be accomplished (though it should be within one year). Some students need more structure, and need help figuring out when they should be finished with each section of study. But when students don't meet those requirements within the set time- whether they set the goal themselves, or if they had help setting the goal... what should happen?

    I have had a few ideas, but would really appreciate any input or experiences you've had, either as a leader, or even as a member of a group- how things like this were dealt with.
    It sounds as if people are diffusing responsibility. I might suggest assigning a particular person to it, either semi-permanently or have people take turns (mark it on the calendar everyone shares). Also, the person who presented the notes the last time should be the first to speak at the next meeting and give a summary of "Old Business" before the group moves on to the new business. That will keep them accountable.
    ‘Αλεξανδρα Δοροθια βωνδ
    http://helleneste.wordpress.com/
    http://www.hellenion.org

    I begin to sing of Pallas Athene, the glorious goddess, bright-eyed, inventive, unbending of heart, pure virgin, saviour of cities, courageous, Tritogeneia. From his awful head wise Zeus himself bare her arrayed in warlike arms of flashing gold, and awe seized all the gods as they gazed. But Athena sprang quickly from the immortal head and stood before Zeus who holds the aegis, shaking a sharp spear: great Olympus began to reel horribly at the might of the bright-eyed goddess, and earth round about cried fearfully, and the sea was moved and tossed with dark waves, while foam burst forth suddenly: the bright Son of Hyperion stopped his swift-footed horses a long while, until the maiden Pallas Athene had stripped the heavenly armour from her immortal shoulders. And wise Zeus was glad. And so hail to you, daughter of Zeus who holds the aegis!
    - THE HOMERIC HYMNS - XXVIII. TO ATHENA

    Comment


    • #3
      There are so many people that were not given the gift of responsibility, manners and parental education.
      I would go by the rules of any organization and appoint a secretary and treasurer.

      Comment


      • #4
        As far as your particular situation, I would be sure to let new initiates know that you will be there for advice and guidance, but deadlines are deadlines. I agree with watersprite on actually having someone officially delegated to each responsibility, and consequences for not fulfilling them.

        I tend to be a little hard-nosed with certain things, and particular about the responsibility of coven members I take on (we are quite selective), and I also limit the amount of participants, take on one at a time for training (sounds like you have a bigger group though) in which I would be sure to lay out a structure.

        Have a meeting with your group members, or core members (those who would be on your 'staff"), and lay out ground rules. I am not really an advocate of hierarchy, as different structures work for different people, but the "Laws of the Craft" as gardner set out were created for that reason alone (later modified by other traditional branches).

        You should take a look at them on Sacred Texts Online, see Gardner BOS, and you can get a feel for what you might want to innclude. Again, these don't have to set a "hierarchy" just a structure of operation. All communities of "rules" or "laws" to abide by, some written, some unspoken. If what should be unspoken to you isn't for others, write them down. Have all coven members sign a pledge to follow these, you can even wrap it up in a nifty ritual as a full on dedication/pledge/promise to the gods/ess and to eachother.

        Anyway, that's my 2 cents...
        sigpicIt's all in your head......... No, Really. I promise it. :boing:

        Comment


        • #5
          These seem to be perennial problems in the majority of groups I've worked with, the exception in my experience being those which have a strong long-term hierarchy who do almost all of the admin (that in itself poses other problems but it wasn't what you asked about). I wonder whether you also have a third which seems to go with these two; people committing to a meeting or ritual, and then regularly dropping out at the last moment or even simply no-showing?

          I'll take them in order and give my own observations: your mileage may, and indeed probably will, vary, since no two groups have exactly the same dynamic.

          Failing to write up or post notes is normally a matter of lack of self-discipline or organisation, both of which are a necessary part of what most groups do, day-to-day. I suggest (over and over again on my web-site, and face-to-face to the point where people are fed up with it) that everyone keeps a journal. If you point out that getting organised in htis way early on will help later, some people 'get it'; some don't but they usually get better over time. If that is seen as part of the development path, you could then take it in turn to post, and in most groups, peer-pressure will do the rest, because anyone who hagn't posted is seen as not quite meeting one of the general objectives of the path, rather than failure to do some abstract task. I'm a great believer in peer pressure - if you do it right, it can take some of the pressure off the leaders, and often works better in any case.

          Failure to collect dues and/or to kep track of who has paid is abit different. Some people are just bad with money; others are intensely embarrassed about collecting it. Now one could argue tht psuhing poeple a bit outside their comfort zone helps them in the long run, but I htink there are better ways of doingthis than lettingthe finances get into a huge mess. In this case, I'd bet you have at least one person who can balance a cheque-book or check a credit card account, and I'd ask them to keep the books. If they're unconmfortable collecting, ask them to find someone to work with who will do that bit. Passing round the responsibility for keeping even the simplest books is in any case a recipe for tears before bed-time, leading to more pressure on the leaders when it needs sorting out.

          Let me add in here the problem of late scratches and no-shows: if this is a problem, it can be very difficult to hndle, particularly if the group is diverse. You may have a few people who try their absolute hardest to get to every meet, but have parenting responsibilities, erratic shifts or perhaps no private transport. They are probably no-shows as often as the other minority who are disorganised or who assign a higher priority to 'Ferryman's Coin are on at the student union and I've just been given some tickets', yet if you call the latter on it, they're quite likely to say 'you're always on my case, yet you let Joe get away with it'.

          I've been on the receiving end of that, not over no-show but in terms of commitment a few months ahead. I would try 'we might be on holiday then' and get criticised, whereas another couple were just allowed to say 'don't know' with no further comment. Turned out that there was a legitimate personal reason but they'd asked the leader no to say anything about it. I felt bitter about the attitude until everyhting became public, and then guilty for having felt bitter.

          After the experience, I now try to deal with this stuff outside meetings, normally by phone: 'look, I know how much of a fan of Ferryman's coin you arem but you can't pull that stunt too often. It disrupts the group'. If the response is 'but last time Joe and Helen...' then I'll say 'They make every meeting they can; they're one of the most committed couples, but last time their kid got sick and they were at the hospital'; see whether the music fan works it out for themself.

          In my case all it would have needed was a quiet word 'sorry if it seems unfair. There's actually a very good reason why Mark and Alice can't commit, but I've been asked not to discuss it. You can try asking them - if they decide to share they might appreciate another sympathetic ear.' I might or might not have asked, but I wouldn't have felt bitter.

          As to your own fainal point:

          Also, my group has a mandatory post-initiation study program thats open-ended in regards to when each section should be accomplished (though it should be within one year) ... But when students don't meet those requirements within the set time ...what should happen?
          That's a very good question. I'll start by quoting one of my mentors who, like my, was a team leader by profession. At a workshop one time, he said '...and for htose of you who do this rofessionally, you have the opportunity to practice in a non-threatening environment, and then come home and lead your group'. The point is well-made: in a work environment you have a system of warnings, appraisals and reviews, with the ultimate sanction of lack of promotion, written warning and even redundancy. Since I'm assuming the goal here is development (carrot) rather than washing-out (stick) you've immediately got problems.

          The two times I've worked with groups who do this as mandatory stuff after initiation had a carrot at the end - in one (US) case the next level of initiation, in the UK, qualification to work in various roles in ritual. But in both systems I encountered people for whom these weren't, at the time at least, carrots. I've met people who were perfectly happy where they were for a few years and derived great benefits from just being a part of it, then suddenly as if a switch in the brain had flicked... One of them is now a very good teacher. But if your group isn't looking for members like that, then maybe you can point them in the direction of a group that is.

          Ultimately, of course, there are only two sticks; ask the person to leave or ask them to take a sabbatical ('a year and a day' or 'until Samhain, perhaps) to consider their level of commitment. The latter usually results in them leaving anyway, but they've been given a choice. Since you don't mention a carrot at the end of the study, I'm assuming that the mandatory year and a day is inteended to demonstrate some level of commitment. The final route you go will depend on several questions.

          The biggie that occurs to me is 'what happens if someone has a genuine reason for not making the deadline?' Would you ease the deadline for someone who spent several months of that year recovering from a road accident, or having chemotherapy? Leading on from this, - ome of the post-initiation stuff I've encountered has been quite complex for a relative newbie: what if you've got a student who's absolutely meticulous (my wife is one; she'll tease at the tiniest point until she's completely sure she 'gets it', to the point that I'm biting my tongue in frustration, but the end result is always immaculate)? Can you adjust the level of input required in a module so that someone like this can actuaolly complete all the modules in the overall time? What checks and balances have you got if the assessor htinks that a student isn't going to make it?

          These questions are intended to differentiate between people who don't want to (aren't ready to) progress further, those with genuine problems, either expected or unexpected, and those who simply can't be bothered. If you can genuinely see into which group your student fits, the answer to 'what should happen?' should be a little clearer at least.

          As I say, just thoughts based on my own experience; if they halp, all well and good.

          blessings
          ffetcher

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ivy Artemisia View Post
            How would you deal with a person who doesn't fulfill responsibilities of their particular job role? For example, one job role is to make a few notes about each meeting (seriously, a few- date/why/attendance/focus) and post them to our internal group site. We've had many people in this role, and no one seems to 'remember' to do this? Or if a role involves collecting dues, and they forget at almost every meeting?
            One thing to look at when a particular task isn't happening is *why* it isn't happening. In both these tasks, it seems like they may be fairly disconnected from someone's other roles at a gathering - it's really easy to forget to do that kind of thing.

            For example: could the person responsible for organising the event (teaching a particular class, leading a particular discussion, planning a particular ritual) be responsible for posting it online? That's more clearly 'tied' to the activity.

            Dues collecting is complicated, because it doesn't fit very well to many group discussions. It can be hard to find a time that flows naturally in the discussion. It may in fact make more sense for the person facilitiating an event to make an announcement - or even for the reminder to go out via email or some other approach. Do you need to collect dues at every event, or could you back off to once a month or once a quarter? Could you use a method that people could choose to do at home (like offering a way to use PayPal or some other approach)? Rethinking the whole question from scratch might have some useful solutions, in other words.

            But when students don't meet those requirements within the set time- whether they set the goal themselves, or if they had help setting the goal... what should happen?
            First, I think that someone offering some guidance is important here: even people who are very driven and normally good at planning tasks ahead can find themselves at a loss when they need to factor in the emotional and internal work that the Craft involves. It's not just about *doing* stuff, it's about processing the experiences, and in my experience, that takes a really unpredictable amount of time and energy.

            So, again, I'd look at the basics.
            - Do you need to have that one year limit on doing these things? Could you instead have a more flexible limit?

            When I was working on my 3rd degree, I came up with a list of things I wanted ot have completed - but there was no formal time limit on how long it should take me. (I had a general aim in mind, but it was definitely more than a year, and it had to allow some flexibility because I was also working on my MLIS degree and working full time at the same time: I knew there were going to be weeks or even a month at a time where I wouldn't have much time beyond group classes and rituals to work on Craft-related projects/assignments.)

            - Is the list of stuff you expect actually reasonable for someone to do in a year's time, if you keep that limit?
            Groups tend to accumulate stuff on their lists of "It'd be good if you did X..." Often, groups start with a fairly simple list, and then someone has a great idea when they do it, and it gets added in, and someone else adds something else. A couple of years later, you've got a really long and complicated list that can be overwhelming - or just disconnected.

            It's worth regularly re-examining what's on that list, and deciding what the major core things you want to include are. Including the rest as optional extras, or "Pick 5 of the things on this list to do" or whatever can be a good solution.

            - Giving people (especially at higher degree levels) the ability to choose where they focus can help a lot: someone who wants to lead their own group will need a different set of skills from someone who wants to focus on healing, or someone who wants to become a truly skilled divination user.

            You might expect a certain level of basic skill (for example, it might be reasonable to expect every 3rd degree to be able to lead an open ritual). But one person might focus on this set of skills far more than another, and those choices will take varying amounts of time, probably.

            - Once you have a reasonable list (either by extending the time frame, or making sure what you're asking truly fits in a year with some wiggle room), ask the person to set the consequences. What do *they* think should happen if they don't keep up?

            Facilitate a discussion, pointing out what it might mean for the group's activities, the group as a whole, how they're perceived by others (in the group, in the broader community), issues of balance in their overall life, etc. Ask them to make a public commitment of some kind (whether simply on a group email list/internal website, or at a meeting, or in ritual) about this, and make sure oyu build in a "If I feel like I'm having trouble meeting this commitment, here's what I'm going to do."

            People may still not meet their goals - but at least you'll all be a lot more clear about what that means and what happens next.

            Comment


            • #7
              First of all- thanks so much for all of the suggestions. I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to get back to this thread before now.

              Originally posted by *~Amora~* View Post
              It sounds as if people are diffusing responsibility. I might suggest assigning a particular person to it, either semi-permanently or have people take turns (mark it on the calendar everyone shares). Also, the person who presented the notes the last time should be the first to speak at the next meeting and give a summary of "Old Business" before the group moves on to the new business. That will keep them accountable.
              Originally posted by watersprite View Post
              There are so many people that were not given the gift of responsibility, manners and parental education.
              I would go by the rules of any organization and appoint a secretary and treasurer.
              Assigning a person to a responsibility is what we have. But even assigning a person a responsibility doesn't mean they will fulfill it. I LOVE the idea of the note-taker going over the notes from last time. Besides the gifts of responsibility, we also have people who have families and jobs to manage, too- and I think it’s a priority thing. I think I probably need to adjust my expectations accordingly.

              Originally posted by Citana View Post
              As far as your particular situation, I would be sure to let new initiates know that you will be there for advice and guidance, but deadlines are deadlines. I agree with watersprite on actually having someone officially delegated to each responsibility, and consequences for not fulfilling them.

              You should take a look at them on Sacred Texts Online, see Gardner BOS, and you can get a feel for what you might want to innclude. Again, these don't have to set a "hierarchy" just a structure of operation. All communities of "rules" or "laws" to abide by, some written, some unspoken. If what should be unspoken to you isn't for others, write them down. Have all coven members sign a pledge to follow these, you can even wrap it up in a nifty ritual as a full on dedication/pledge/promise to the gods/ess and to eachother.
              We actually have a set hierarchy in place, and bylaws. We are a smaller group, and we’ve had several people in the offices over the past five years- many with the same problem. What sort of consequences might you suggest? Being a smaller group, loss of responsibility puts more burden on me.

              Originally posted by ffetcher View Post
              These seem to be perennial problems in the majority of groups I've worked with, the exception in my experience being those which have a strong long-term hierarchy who do almost all of the admin (that in itself poses other problems but it wasn't what you asked about). I wonder whether you also have a third which seems to go with these two; people committing to a meeting or ritual, and then regularly dropping out at the last moment or even simply no-showing?

              Let me add in here the problem of late scratches and no-shows: if this is a problem, it can be very difficult to hndle, particularly if the group is diverse. You may have a few people who try their absolute hardest to get to every meet, but have parenting responsibilities, erratic shifts or perhaps no private transport. They are probably no-shows as often as the other minority who are disorganised or who assign a higher priority to 'Ferryman's Coin are on at the student union and I've just been given some tickets', yet if you call the latter on it, they're quite likely to say 'you're always on my case, yet you let Joe get away with it'.
              Thank you for your great responses… I’m very blessed to not have this last problem.

              Originally posted by ffetcher View Post
              The two times I've worked with groups who do this as mandatory stuff after initiation had a carrot at the end - in one (US) case the next level of initiation, in the UK, qualification to work in various roles in ritual. But in both systems I encountered people for whom these weren't, at the time at least, carrots. I've met people who were perfectly happy where they were for a few years and derived great benefits from just being a part of it, then suddenly as if a switch in the brain had flicked... One of them is now a very good teacher. But if your group isn't looking for members like that, then maybe you can point them in the direction of a group that is.

              Ultimately, of course, there are only two sticks; ask the person to leave or ask them to take a sabbatical ('a year and a day' or 'until Samhain, perhaps) to consider their level of commitment. The latter usually results in them leaving anyway, but they've been given a choice. Since you don't mention a carrot at the end of the study, I'm assuming that the mandatory year and a day is inteended to demonstrate some level of commitment. The final route you go will depend on several questions.

              The biggie that occurs to me is 'what happens if someone has a genuine reason for not making the deadline?' Would you ease the deadline for someone who spent several months of that year recovering from a road accident, or having chemotherapy? Leading on from this, - ome of the post-initiation stuff I've encountered has been quite complex for a relative newbie: what if you've got a student who's absolutely meticulous (my wife is one; she'll tease at the tiniest point until she's completely sure she 'gets it', to the point that I'm biting my tongue in frustration, but the end result is always immaculate)? Can you adjust the level of input required in a module so that someone like this can actuaolly complete all the modules in the overall time? What checks and balances have you got if the assessor htinks that a student isn't going to make it?

              These questions are intended to differentiate between people who don't want to (aren't ready to) progress further, those with genuine problems, either expected or unexpected, and those who simply can't be bothered. If you can genuinely see into which group your student fits, the answer to 'what should happen?' should be a little clearer at least.
              It’s expected that each of our initiates gets to our 2*, which is our ‘carrot.’ And we do have a plan in place for sabbaticals, and we’ve used it many times. Some come back, some do not. I really appreciate your response. It actually validates my experience, and the way we have things set up. Thanks!

              Originally posted by Jenett View Post
              First, I think that someone offering some guidance is important here: even people who are very driven and normally good at planning tasks ahead can find themselves at a loss when they need to factor in the emotional and internal work that the Craft involves. It's not just about *doing* stuff, it's about processing the experiences, and in my experience, that takes a really unpredictable amount of time and energy.

              So, again, I'd look at the basics.
              - Do you need to have that one year limit on doing these things? Could you instead have a more flexible limit?

              - Is the list of stuff you expect actually reasonable for someone to do in a year's time, if you keep that limit?
              Groups tend to accumulate stuff on their lists of "It'd be good if you did X..." Often, groups start with a fairly simple list, and then someone has a great idea when they do it, and it gets added in, and someone else adds something else. A couple of years later, you've got a really long and complicated list that can be overwhelming - or just disconnected.

              It's worth regularly re-examining what's on that list, and deciding what the major core things you want to include are. Including the rest as optional extras, or "Pick 5 of the things on this list to do" or whatever can be a good solution.

              - Giving people (especially at higher degree levels) the ability to choose where they focus can help a lot: someone who wants to lead their own group will need a different set of skills from someone who wants to focus on healing, or someone who wants to become a truly skilled divination user.

              You might expect a certain level of basic skill (for example, it might be reasonable to expect every 3rd degree to be able to lead an open ritual). But one person might focus on this set of skills far more than another, and those choices will take varying amounts of time, probably.

              - Once you have a reasonable list (either by extending the time frame, or making sure what you're asking truly fits in a year with some wiggle room), ask the person to set the consequences. What do *they* think should happen if they don't keep up?

              People may still not meet their goals - but at least you'll all be a lot more clear about what that means and what happens next.
              I really appreciate your response. Our ‘one-year’ expectation isn’t set in stone, but definitely fluid. When one-year turns into 2 or 3 years of pushing back studies, it becomes a problem. And our first year initiate program is COMPLETELY do-able within a year. A motivated individual with a good grasp on spare time could probably even finish it in six months. I’ve actually incorporated the “pick five things” structure before, and have incorporated that sort of thing into our 2*-3* training. I’ve also tried, “choose your own consequence” but then didn’t really push for the follow through, and I understand, that’s my bad.

              You all have really given me some good ideas, and my gears are really turning. I appreciate all of your responses. I know that I, too, need to get a little more organized in regards to noting everyone’s commitments, etc. I’ve tried a few programs to help, but I’ve finally found something that really works for me. This month we’ll be covering a lot of things in our monthly meeting- this is our ‘housekeeping’ meeting, so we’ll be addressing a lot of this this weekend. I realize that a lot of this is my fault- I need to re-examine a lot of things. Again, I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses.
              Ivy Artemisia
              Twilight Spiral Coven [Site | Facebook]
              Hearth and Hedgerow [Site | Etsy Shop]

              Comment


              • #8
                One of the things I've found from different type groups is that the acutal by-laws that the group operates under are often forgotten. Not only forgotten but many times appear to no longer hold purpose as the leadership of the group changes or rotates.

                Just as the by-laws change so to does the notion of what is expected of each job position. I have found in the past that if the predicesor of a job was lax then that working becomes the new persons as well. Often one will look back and see what was done and use it as a guage to see what is requried.

                For myself I found the best way around it was to hold semi-annual meetings to discuss the purpose and direction we wanted to go. Those meetings usually brough out the people that missed the monthly meetings so they would have some input and give direction to the group.

                Granted the format varried from group to group. Lets face it the workings for a Boy Scout group were different from a Little League team or spiritual gathering. Yet you would be suprised just how much did cross over if one laid a skelton draft of each against the other.

                On the training process you might consider the end result and steps to arrive at it. But not put the steps in hard order for what is logical to one may not be logical to another. Yet the final result is the judging factor as to whether one completed the task correctly.

                Sort of the idea that a task is broken down into Learning objective to teach theory, Enabling objetives to test procedures and Terminal objects to say what one must be able to do when finished with a section. Then a course objective to say what must or should be done when one is fully finished. Of course each may be as detailed or vague as the group decides to have them.

                Really can't say why but I find that if one has a written guide in front of them they tend to follow the steps better than if it is left to self motivation.

                Good luck on your task. I know it can be frustrating at times but hang in there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greetings,

                  Most people join groups because they want something from them, and most will concede that they should give something back for what they receive. However, too often people impose expectations without making reciprocation an important priority themselves. We are all busy. We all have jobs, families, etc., but we do not all prioritize our lives in the same ways. In the end, it comes down to this: some people make time for their spiritual commitments, while others offer whatever time is left after everything else on their agendas. We only make time for the things we consider to be high priority; if we're not making time for something it's because it's not a high enough priority...
                  There is nothing wrong with this, so long as everyone is agreed on what it means.

                  In our view, a working community should invest no more in the individual than the individual invests in the collective. In other words, if you want an equal share of (or access to) community resources you must do an equal share of the work. Our group spent almost 8 years trying to cater to the needs of people with great intentions, but no follow-through. The same small group was always saddled with doing the work for a majority that was contrite but unwilling to make whatever changes were necessary to pitch in. After losing a number of good members to burnout we decided to make regular, reliable participation and fulfilment of duties a condition of membership.

                  Bylaws are important because they document the concensus agreement that defines and governs the community vision and provide basic accountability. Bylaws need to be reviewed periodically to see whether what worked on paper has been working in functional reality. Changes should be made, if necessary, so that the existing document accurately reflects current practice. Once you have your actual process on record it becomes a matter of proper training and ensuring that all administrators remain in compliance. It is important to enforce your Bylaws, otherwise the clarity and power of your founding Vision and collective agreement will diminish with each successive generation until they are finally forgotten or rendered meaningless. There are probably many ways to avoid this. We apprentice would-be administrators under current administrators, and only those who are demonstrably knowledgeable, competent, reliable, and committed to perpetuating the Tradition become eligible for election to office.

                  Written guidelines are indispensable, both for member requirements and for administrative functions. A good manual states the founding vision and restates the collective agreement, provides basic definitions of terms, defines and prioritizes requirements, and provides clear consequences for failure to comply. It protects the group and the individual and helps to perpetuate a positive environment for everyone -- if they are enforced. In the end, while it is wise always to remain open to new insights, you (the collective) will still have to stand firm when your basic tenets are challenged by those with competing agendas. This is never easy, but it is necessary.

                  Basically, you need people who are reliable and are able and willing to follow the community guidelines, beliefs, and practices. You don't need those who cannot or will not comply with these basics, and you certainly can't afford to have them in positions of authority. If they can't be made to understand the requirements, you should let them go and find someone else.
                  Last edited by Morgaine_cla; June 7th, 2009, 11:24 PM.
                  * Three first parts of Understanding: An Eye to see what is; A Heart to feel what is; and a Boldness that dares to follow them. *

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: the undone tasks at a meeting. If rotating shifts aren't working. Hold nominations for the positions and vote, they can have a second (the person with the second most amount of votes maybe?) When your primary isn't at a meeting for some reason or another, the second can take the notes. Maybe have a different person do the posts, so that the jobs are more evenly distributed. This also ensures that some of the group is collaborating in another area, which can help build a stronger team. It's like having an outfield that can work together in baseball. They know when to back each other up.

                    Dues collection is another thing. It's hard to get a hold of each person privately and ask them about it, and passing a basket is kind of creepy. Maybe have a drop box at the door of the meeting. It's on your honor, the day of the meeting, after the dues are accounted for, if someone didn't pay up or put in a note about why (with some kind of time frame for payment) They get a call in a couple of days.

                    I agree with what was mentioned above, confronting others within a peer group in a respectful manner is key for building a stronger group. It might make the person uncomfortable but they have to make the call to cover your operating costs. It's not like y'all are profiteering, this money keeps the group going. Maybe ask the members if anyone feels called to improve themselves in that area.

                    Classes are tricky. I've found (especially with adults), that the shorter the better. Have the teachers look over the curriculum, and break it into manageable sections. Two or three week a course. Each class will still be a year long, but it would consist of shorter sections within the course. Each section concentrating on a specific topic or sets of information. If the student is struggling with integration in the practice. They can approach their mentor and get help. This also builds trust in the community, enhances communication, and builds teamwork.

                    Having shorter more intensive "knowledge based" courses weeds out those who do not actually want to complete the year class, but are looking for specific information. If they are looking to enhance skills in casting circles specifically for protection they can attend the three week course on protection under the "Circles" class, and so on. That way senior members who want to brush up, can take the course as well. Teaching in a liturgical fashion would probably easiest to manage, as it falls in with whatever calendar you are using, and the students can get a feel for the ritual as it happens.

                    I dunno about attendance. My first thought was a three strikes kind of thing. Looking back, that's not a good way to build trust in people you are working with. It is dangerous to walk into any situation with someone who has an axe over their head. If someone is failing to show and it is obvious disinterest, talk to them and see what the situation is, maybe steer them in the direction of a group that would operate at more their speed.

                    In the event that the person in question is having some kind of problem (family, drugs, money what-have-you) as responsible adults they have to figure out what they are doing with their lives. As a community you can only help so much, and as a community you have to decide where to draw the line.

                    Sorry for the ramble, no sleep makes for run on sentences.
                    sigpic

                    At some point I said that life should be more like, robocop riding a unicorn that happens to be defecating rainbows...

                    Well life just got a little bit better.

                    "Take a picture of an electron in one instant and again the next, it will have seen Andromeda, do the same for me, and I will have taken the same trip."


                    I continue to battle my word processor in hopes of producing something useful...

                    Forum Guide in New Pagans
                    Don't forget to Adopt your n00bie!


                    I have been by Bear Dancing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ivy Artemisia View Post
                      How would you deal with a person who doesn't fulfill responsibilities of their particular job role?
                      First, I'd inform them of my grievances. If the problem persisted to the point of becoming absolutely unacceptable, I'd fire them from the position, and look for someone more qualified to take their place. (I rather pessimistically suspect I would end up having to do the job myself.)

                      For example, one job role is to make a few notes about each meeting (seriously, a few- date/why/attendance/focus) and post them to our internal group site. We've had many people in this role, and no one seems to 'remember' to do this? Or if a role involves collecting dues, and they forget at almost every meeting? It seems as though I'm always posting the notes, or asking for dues.
                      Reminds me of that old saying, "If you want something done, you gotta do it yourself." I'm sorry that you have this trouble.

                      Also, my group has a mandatory post-initiation study program thats open-ended in regards to when each section should be accomplished (though it should be within one year). Some students need more structure, and need help figuring out when they should be finished with each section of study. But when students don't meet those requirements within the set time- whether they set the goal themselves, or if they had help setting the goal... what should happen?
                      Like all less than satisfactory students, they should be failed. (IMO) This would probably be detrimental to building (or expanding) a solid membership base for your group, but for me, quality is preferable to quantity.

                      I have had a few ideas, but would really appreciate any input or experiences you've had, either as a leader, or even as a member of a group- how things like this were dealt with.
                      My experience leads me to believe that groups are problematic by their very nature; whenever a group becomes larger than just two or three people, it becomes an "outfit" and issues of conformity inevitably arise. (Reminds me of the "Rule of Two" for the Sith in Star Wars - there can only be two at a time, no more and no less.) Of course my bias here is probably due to the extremely individualist nature of my path. (Though somehow, the Temple of Set has managed to survive this long. This is probably due to Dr. Michael Aquino's experience in the military; he seems to be a good organizer. More on this below.) Conformity is admittedly not one of my strong points, and I dislike trying to persuade people to conform to myself even less, so when it came to our own Setian group, we kept the membership down to just three people at a time. (The fact that we are prohibited from proselytizing and that there aren't many people who want to follow this path in our area to begin with also helped.)

                      Returning to what I mentioned earlier about military experience...Is there anyone in your group who has served, or is currently serving? Or perhaps someone involved with the police force, and who has experience with their system of protocol? Or anyone who has had any sort of experience in community organizing? Or perhaps who works in education? I'm not sure if people in these walks of life would be able to give you any good advice either, but perhaps they would. I would think a community organizer of some kind might have some good tips on how to motivate your members to fulfill their responsibilities.

                      To return to the Temple of Set example, I think a significant part of their success is that they have a strong hierarchy which is responsible for Temple administration, not unlike what ffetcher was describing. (I agree with him that this poses other problems, which don't bear discussion here.) To their credit, however, they're one of the few left hand path organizations I've ever come across where the office of high priest only lasts for a specific term, with different people being appointed to the office over time. Perhaps it is this tradition of continually introducing "new blood" into different positions within the hierarchy that helps to keep the group successful.

                      Another suggestion just came to mind. Have you ever read about how Quaker congregations conduct their business meetings? (They actually set aside specific times for congregations to discuss business together.) Quakers are very non-hierarchal, yet they somehow manage to take care of business as a collective group. Perhaps one reason why they are able to do this is that their business meetings are simultaneously seen as worship services. Here are some links you might find helpful about it:

                      http://www.qis.net/~daruma/business.html

                      http://www.fgcquaker.org/ao/toolbox/...usiness-basics

                      http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resource...-practice.html

                      I'm not suggesting that you dispense with whatever hierarchy there might be in your group, or that you completely mimic Quakers in your own business meetings, if you have them or choose to have them. But it might be something helpful for you to look into, if you're interested. I hope it helps, at least.
                      Last edited by Darth Brooks; June 6th, 2009, 02:04 PM.
                      My God is a real Ass; He butchered the Dying-and-Rising Lord, He stole the Eye from the Hawk, He sires the Children of Rebellion, and He lusts after God and Goddess alike. Every green and growing thing shrivels into dust at His touch; every convention is violated by the seed of His loins. He brings drought and infertility to the land, and He has no respect for the crook or the flail. Yet without Him, the slave would never break free from his bondage, the evil serpent would devour the sun, and the future would never come to pass.

                      The song of the tempest is His name.


                      Khepher-I-Suti

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X