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  • #46
    Originally posted by Doodlebug
    I'd have to decline. But then again, I don't think my God will ever ask for a blood sacrifice. All he (just a pronoun, I believe God is genderless or is of both genders) only demands that I love him and my neighbors (everyone) as myself.
    hmmm, so given you hated yourself and wanted to kill yourself (loving as myself) does this make you kill and hate others too, with gods ok?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Dio
      I wanted to point out, on the concept of blood sacrifice. I noticed that a lot of folks said that they would be okay with it as long as they could put the remains to good use for themselves...I guess so they don't feel as though they were waisting something.
      It is a nice thought, but I don't personally agree with this.

      I believe that when you offer something in sacrifice to any spirit, be it God/dess, Fae, ancestral, the essence of your offering is completely taken and used by the spirit, hence making said offering useless to you. There would literally be nothing of nutritional value left of it.
      It depends on what is meant by 'sacrifice'. This is a quote from Ceiswer Serith's grove site. All too often this idea of 'sacrifice' these days is influenced by the Christian concept of same. Here's another view...

      "Furthermore, Romans generally believed that gods and spirits were omnipresent and responsible for all natural phenomena; therefore, they must be propitiated in order for the home and community to thrive. Do ut des was the most common form of prayer, meaning "I give so that you may give." The whole idea was to bargain with the gods and contribute to their power by adding to it with sacrifices. The gods are more powerful than humans and their power can be increased when humans offer them gifts. Many Roman prayers which are accompanied by offerings contain some form of the phrase macte esto ("Be thou increased"). The verb macto, mactare is linguistically derived from the same root as the word magnus ("great"). Thus, macte esto literally is an imperative suggesting that the deity being addressed be increased or enlarged by that which has been offered to it. In a sense, Romans may have believed that the gods needed humans to sustain and increase their power."

      Even when humans were sacrificed the idea was that human life and human blood was the most precious thing that could be offered to the gods. It was not a disregard for human life, quite the opposite.


      I happen to look at what is being called "blood sacrifice" in this thread as a sharing of what one has with one's dieties. Hospitality, sharing of food in particular, was held to be a virtue in many ancient cultures. Such a sacrifice, in those terms, is a "sharing" of the bounty with the gods, honoring them and offering one's hospitality to them in the same way. I saw it referred to on another message board as inviting the dieties to come on in and join the party. In my opinion that's probably closer to how ancient peoples saw it than how many of us see it today.

      I do find it interesting to see how heavily ideas of contemporary society have begun to influence attitudes toward such a basic thing as sacrifice to the dieties, even among those who eat meat.

      Maggie

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Pandoras
        I can understand why the ancients did it, but I don't believe animal sacrifice is necessary in this day and age. I don't think that something as grand as the Divine requires something as small and mundane as blood.

        If my deities asked it of me, I would seriously reconsider these deities.
        Why not? Perhaps it's even more important these days, when so many of us are connected only at a distance to the natural world as a reminder of that nature.

        Maggie

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Galadraal
          Well, perhaps I should ask it in a more gentler way...what if it was a culturally accepted part of a ritual to sacrifice to a God...would you do it?
          If it were a culturally accepted part of a ritual to sacrifice to a God why would anyone be questioning it?


          Maggie

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          • #50
            Originally posted by ~ Monk ~
            Just out of curiousity, for those this applies to - if your God/dess deemed it necessary to sacrifice a human, would you do it?
            No. And that refusal comes not from disrespect, lack of understanding or anything. It comes from the fact that I am a product of my times and my culture. Same goes for animal sacrifice. Could I personally actually kill the animal? Probably not, I don't like killing. But I recognize that's me. I don't object to the idea, I support it.


            Maggie

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            • #51
              In my years on my path, I have offered my own blood, as well as the blood of animals. Blood and meat was left as an offering, and the rest was given to community Elders for food for the winter-the animals were deer, moose, elk, rabbits, and various birds.

              In my mind, offering a blood sacrifice is an integral part of hunting, which I do to feed my family. I also believe that what is not offered must be used, so hides, feathers, bones, meat, is all used.

              As for Monk's question of human sacrifice, that is a simple no, I wouldn't do it, much for the same reasons as Morag.
              when I was a child I was taught one thing
              listen to your elders and the wisdom they bring
              but wisdom and age aren't the same in my eyes
              and trust is not based upon wrinkles
              -S. Fearing

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Mٍrag Elasaid MacDhٍmhnaill
                You seem to have this idea in your head that sacrificing an animal automatically means it's wasted, which as I've stated several times it is not.
                So please, stop trying to find ways to subtly belittle me or point out that I'm wrong or bad or whatever your reason for all of the questions.
                I fail to see how asking two questions is in any way belittling you. No one else seemed to be offended by them.

                I'm just genuinely curious about where people who feel directed/guided/demanded of by a god/dess would draw the line when it comes to sacrifice. If that bothers you, that's your problem, not mine. As for the other stuff you wrote - I don't believe I've ever criticized anyone on this forum for eating meat nor have I been a holier-than-thou kind of guy just because I don't, so I have no idea where that comes from.

                Originally posted by Mٍrag Elasaid MacDhٍmhnaill
                If my gods are asking for it, there is a reason, a good reason. The gods have the ability and see comprehend things that we humans can never even begin to imagine. They are going to have a hell of a lot better idea of what is necessary than I am. Part of loving and worshipping my gods is trusting them. And I trust them to not ask me to do something so extreme without a very good reason. I also trust that they will let me know what that reason is should the situation ever arise.
                And this is exactly why I asked the question. What if a person's gods told them they felt a human sacrifice was necessary? If they have a better idea of what's necessary, can see and comprehend things we can't and one places that much trust in them, where does one draw the line?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ~ Monk ~
                  And this is exactly why I asked the question. What if a person's gods told them they felt a human sacrifice was necessary? If they have a better idea of what's necessary, can see and comprehend things we can't and one places that much trust in them, where does one draw the line?
                  Put this way, the question is meaningless unless you are asking someone whose belief system views religious sacrifice and necessity in in such a way this question would arise. Personally, I can't quite imagine why such a hypothetical would for me.

                  The word "sacrifice" and its connotations aren't being perceived in the same way by all the posters in this thread.


                  Maggie

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ~ Monk ~
                    Just out of curiousity, for those this applies to - if your God/dess deemed it necessary to sacrifice a human, would you do it?
                    I don't think I could bring myself to do it.

                    I'd shed some of my own blood, but I couldn't spill another's. I've seen animal sacrifices though, there are santeras in my family.
                    "Knowledge without mileage is bullsh*t"... Henry Rollins

                    "That moral high horse is a tough perch to stay on"... Me

                    "PETA doesn't want stressed animals to be cruelly crowded into sheds, ankle-deep in their own crap, because they don't want any animals to die-ever-and basically think chickens should, in time, gain the right to vote. I don't want animals stressed or crowded or treated cruelly or inhumanely because that makes them probably less delicious"...Anthony Bourdain


                    R.I.P. MiLo
                    Run free and catch the rabbits
                    4/7/96 - 11/30/10

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                    • #55
                      I'm not a new Pagan, but thought I'd add my two bits as well.

                      I would never sacrifice blood nor life, if my Deity demanded it.
                      I might chose to use blood in a ritual, in that case it would be my own blood. But I never have and I doubt I ever will.
                      And I would never in a million lifetimes kill another human being for a sacrifice.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ~ Monk ~
                        I fail to see how asking two questions is in any way belittling you. No one else seemed to be offended by them.
                        Monk, you were not the only person asking me questions. And yes, some of the questions in this thread have come across in a way that implies anyone who does perform an animal sacrifice is a bad person. That whole part of the post was directed not solely at you, but at everyone. I used your name at the beginning of it because you were the most recent querant and you did have a specific question I wanted to address. I was not offended by your questions, just the tone of some people's posts.

                        I'm just genuinely curious about where people who feel directed/guided/demanded of by a god/dess would draw the line when it comes to sacrifice. If that bothers you, that's your problem, not mine.
                        It's one thing to question a person out of curiousity, it's another thing to do it in a way that comes across as questioning a persons motives. As I said above, the point was directed to everyone, not just in this thread, who has questioned me in such a fashion.

                        As for the other stuff you wrote - I don't believe I've ever criticized anyone on this forum for eating meat nor have I been a holier-than-thou kind of guy just because I don't, so I have no idea where that comes from.
                        Not specific to you. It's more specific to the people who say they couldn't do it because they can't take a life. They take a life everytime they eat a salad was all I was getting at. It gets very frustrating to hear the same comment again and again, and the way people proclaim, "it's just wrong" gets old. I was trying to get people to think before making statements that have far more meaning then they realize.

                        And this is exactly why I asked the question. What if a person's gods told them they felt a human sacrifice was necessary? If they have a better idea of what's necessary, can see and comprehend things we can't and one places that much trust in them, where does one draw the line?
                        While I trust my gods implicitly to make the right decisions, I also trust that they know my mind and heart well enough to know what I can and can't do for them. They know that I can't perform an animal sacrifice myself as I'm not properly trained for it, but would if I was trained and it was asked. They also know that I am a product of my culture and could not perform a human sacrifice, not only because of lack of skill and that I find it morally wrong, but also because of the legal issues.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mٍrag Elasaid MacDhٍmhnaill
                          Monk, you were not the only person asking me questions. And yes, some of the questions in this thread have come across in a way that implies anyone who does perform an animal sacrifice is a bad person. That whole part of the post was directed not solely at you, but at everyone. I used your name at the beginning of it because you were the most recent querant and you did have a specific question I wanted to address.
                          I see. I apologize for my misperception.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ~ Monk ~
                            Just out of curiousity, for those this applies to - if your God/dess deemed it necessary to sacrifice a human, would you do it?
                            Well, this better be a divinity I have a powerful/close working relationship with. And/or the ability to convince me that there is a reason it is needed for me to do so. And of course the matter of the nature of the offering (his/her perception of it) would come into play. Much more likely if we'd been talking to the same god, both were convinced it was worth it, etc. Or, for that matter, if it was a matter of me being the victim (much easier in soooooo many ways. Fewer questions and practical matters to concern myself with being able to deal with.)

                            That being said, I don't see it happening. Anything that is big enough for that to be necessary is probably not something that they are going to come talk to me about. If for no other reason than I'm unlikely to be the right sort person to talk to in the right place to do something about it. I may be a tool of the gods, but they are generally skilled enough craftsmen to not use a screwdriver to pry open paint cans. Also, of course, going back to the theme of ill-done sacrifice... I don't know if I am capeable of doing so well, and without the proper offering it still wouldn't be properly done and how many people are really able to make themselves and their lives into an offering such as that?

                            I can see it happening as something else. If for some reason I was forced into a position of needing to kill someone (say an attacker, for example) I would try to make it an act of sacrifice... to make the act a sacred one, and to waste as little of it as possible. If someone is going to force me to do something as traumatic and taboo as that, it is going to get used and not just be left hanging and wasted and pointless. Much as I veiw the proper way to hunt. Make a virtue of necessity. If it must be done, make it as well done and as unwasted as possible.
                            Last edited by -Ember; February 1st, 2005, 04:40 PM.
                            "The facts do not change, but their order is given another dimension through another myth. They are experienced differently; they gain another tale."-James Hillman

                            Justice is blind. A witch is not.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ravens_Tears
                              None of the above.
                              And truely in any situation, in my humble opinion, I have no right to "sacrifice" anything but what I truely own. I cannot take from another. I do not have the right.
                              But then you have no right to live yourself, for life is dependant upon the taking from others. All that you have is yours from having taken it from others as they took it from still yet others. Yet most of those from who it was taken gave more willingly than we understand, being more inclined to take.

                              Is there anything you "truely own"?

                              I am willing to take, in appreciation of the gift, and am striving to be ever mindful that I also must give as freely as I have taken.
                              "The facts do not change, but their order is given another dimension through another myth. They are experienced differently; they gain another tale."-James Hillman

                              Justice is blind. A witch is not.

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                              • #60
                                Back when I was on another path I used to offer my own. I dont do it now because I dont believe that I have anyone to offer it to, so I might as well keep it
                                "I believe we all suffer under a curse, the curse that we know more than we can bear, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing we can do about the force and lure of this curse." Vittorio -Vittorio the Vampire by Anne Rice

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