Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Satanists, white males, and other acceptable targets

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I have to agree with Loopaleigh. I was a Satanist for quite some time. LaVey was overly reactionary because of his poor experience with Christianity. The Setians (Temple of Set) arose in response to LaVey's emotionally based views. Both groups fail to be deep enough to acknowledge how selflessness can be as rewarding if not more so than constantly satisfying our ids.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Loopaleigh
      I agree that people should reserve judgement and opinion about a subject until they have all the facts.

      But what about individuals that have taken the time to become educated about something, yet conclude after study, careful thought, and experience that they don't agree with it?

      Should they not give their opinion because they aren't in the majority or don't hold the popular view point? Should we draw and quarter them for being odd man out? Accuse them of being "intolerent"?

      This doesn't happen to me to often because I avoid posting to much of a contrary opinion from the majority. (Until now.)
      But, I see this happen over and over....Majority says "Dog" and the lone voice comes along and says "Cat" and before you know it the "Cat" is dead.

      I get so tired of reading someone have a different opinion from everyone else's and their reward for sharing is getting bashed and flamed.
      One person jumps on them and then lots of other people jump in to and the thread becomes all about picking on that one person. Satanist call it "Herd Conformity".

      Should we require everyone to post a disclaimer and credentials along with their opinion?
      Wouldn't it be better to just say "I don't agree with you, and here's why"....minus the personnal attack?

      I don't agree with Satanism. Here's why....I think it focuses to much on the Self and not enough on the world around them and trying to make it a better place. I don't find it to be a balanced enough worldview for my taste.

      Disclaimer- This doesn't mean I don't respect their path or their right to believe what they want...some of their beliefs make perfect sense to me, other things I don't agree with.

      Credentials- I have read the Satanic Bible, the Satanic Witch, been to the Chruch of Satan Website and had lengthy conversations with several Satanist both Theistic and LeVayen.

      P.S....This isn't meant to be a personnal attack on Darakash who I adore, just me being the lone voice and playing "Devil's Advocate." I have been needing to get the "let's pick on the odd man out" rant off my chest for a long time.
      P.P.S...Darakash, I hope I'm still on your "been good" list. Sorry if I hijacked your thread.
      Hey, don't get me wrong! I LOVE a good debate, and I also enjoy a good thread-hijacking! Makes for much more interesting conversation....And, I will defend to the death (quite literally) your right to disagree with anything that you have come to an informed conclusion about. I definitely did not write my original post to state that we should all roll over and agree with Satanists about everything or to state that they are "right" about their beliefs, one of the reasons that I am not a Satanist is that i do not agree with many of the things that I have read, also, I am a person that thinks that by using the name Satanist, these groups have created more problems for themselves than using the name may be worth, but hey, know what? That realy IS an opinion!

      I have some of the same issues with the general tenants (as I understand them) as you do. (or as your Devil's Advocate voice does). I do not think a person has to list their credentials, but when they ARE making statements of opinion, it should NOT be presented as fact, and when they are making INCORRECT statements of "fact" they should expect to be corrected by people who know better....make sense? I mean, if an uniformed person came to this thread, for instance and jumped in saying something like "All Satanists are evildoers who sacrifiice babies to Beezlebub and fornicate with jelly beans while dancing naked with virgin pigs and THATS why I hate them..." I think, that even the most anti-Satantist-minded Pagan would have the responsibility to correct that person, and say, "You are wrong you are misinformed and if this is the reason you Hate satanists, then you neeeed to get educated!" Now that person who spouted that hate, CANNOT justify their statements by saying "well, we all have opinions, and this is my opinion and you won't ever change my mind about that!" THE ABOVE was NOT a statement of opinion and it was waaayyyy over the line of respecting other paths.

      I have just been surprised at the level of actual faith-bashing attacks I have seen leveled at satanists in many places recently. I don't mean, "I disagree with these beliefs" statements...I mean "This is/They are wrong, evil, they should not be welcomed into Pagan midsts, they are some how less deserving of their right to participate in discussions, they are less deserving of religious rights protection," kinds of comments I have been reading in many places lately!

      By the way this concerns me "I get so tired of reading someone have a different opinion from everyone else's and their reward for sharing is getting bashed and flamed." I certainly hope that my posts to do not appear to do this, I have tried to keep all of my responses as clear and supportable as possible, and I never attack anyone for having a DIFFERENT opinion than mine, just for the above issues, if I have done this, I was not aware that it was perceived that way and I would certainly apologize, if you show me anywhere I have done it!

      DK


      Dont' say things never change! Everything changes....some people just choose not to see the difference.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Loopaleigh
        P.S....This isn't meant to be a personnal attack on Darakash who I adore, just me being the lone voice and playing "Devil's Advocate." I have been needing to get the "let's pick on the odd man out" rant off my chest for a long time.
        P.P.S...Darakash, I hope I'm still on your "been good" list. Sorry if I hijacked your thread.
        Oh, and by the way... :hearthear so nice, and yes, absolutely you are still on my "been good list!" I love a person who speaks his/her mind and do not feel hijacked at all, the reason I come to message boards at all, is to have good well-thought-out debates.


        Dont' say things never change! Everything changes....some people just choose not to see the difference.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Zophael
          I have to agree with Loopaleigh. I was a Satanist for quite some time. LaVey was overly reactionary because of his poor experience with Christianity. The Setians (Temple of Set) arose in response to LaVey's emotionally based views. Both groups fail to be deep enough to acknowledge how selflessness can be as rewarding if not more so than constantly satisfying our ids.
          Makes sense to me, again, I am not saying that anyone has to agree with what Satanists believe, but I am saying that rather than presenting a totally logical and informed statement as the one you have submitted here, if a person attacking an entire group (which of course, is made up of even more and differing groups) with blanket statements that said person presents as fact, and at the same time, asserting that as a result of these "facts" that group is EVIL and should not be allowed to particpate in the Pagan community or to have equal religious rights under the law...well, I find that offensive. Satanism does not work for me, neither does chaos magick, neither does Wicca(at least not the forms that I know about), neither does Christianity or Judaism, or Islam....however, I believe it is my responsibility when discussing these faiths to share what it is that I disagree with about these faiths and practices in a respectful and clear manner. I would not, for instance, make the statement that Christians are a bunch of Sheeple who only practice their religion because they are afraid of Hell and don't want to have to take any personal responsibility for their actions, so they hide behind their God. I would be slammed and should be, and by the way, I really don't believe this! I personally don't find Christianity a comfortable path for me because in view of some of the tenants of the religion(s) and my perceptions/personality, I would feel that I was acting in the above way if I tried to conform to that path; this does not mean that I am at all opposed to Christians sharing their beliefs with others, with Pagans, with me; this does not mean that I think that the rights of Christians to practice their religion are any less valid under the law.

          When I wrote this post, as I have already stated, I was reacting to what I saw in various places, as a complete lack of the kind of respect that most of us always grant other religions in our discussions about them. It seemed that people who would never dream of bashing another Pagan path or even an Abrahamic one, were making arguments based on sterotypes and ignorance, and in some cases even defending the violations of religious rights of satanists, without so much as a second thought! I simply do not believe that the faith should be treated as second-class citizens, whether I agree with them or not!

          DK


          Dont' say things never change! Everything changes....some people just choose not to see the difference.

          Comment


          • #20
            ok, looks like I need to clarify myself. I don't feel that Satanists are necessarily evil and everyone's concept of 'evil' varies a little bit. They should not be attacked, especially here. This is a pagan site, therefore toleration for all religious views that are not Judeo-Christian or Muslim is necessary. and to avoid any fuss, I have nothing against Jews, Christians or Muslims participating here, but they are by definition, not pagan. I didn't feel my earlier comment was refering to Satanists and their kin evil, but rather I was hinting that they could be more prone to negative ways that would be rather unpopular here. As far as my agreement with Loop, I was under the notion that she was simply saying that Satanism is not a balanced nutritious religion. I did not get the impression she was condoning any anti-Satanistic behaviour.

            I hope this clarifies things and gets the thread back on track.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Zophael
              ok, looks like I need to clarify myself. I don't feel that Satanists are necessarily evil and everyone's concept of 'evil' varies a little bit. They should not be attacked, especially here. This is a pagan site, therefore toleration for all religious views that are not Judeo-Christian or Muslim is necessary. and to avoid any fuss, I have nothing against Jews, Christians or Muslims participating here, but they are by definition, not pagan. I didn't feel my earlier comment was refering to Satanists and their kin evil, but rather I was hinting that they could be more prone to negative ways that would be rather unpopular here. As far as my agreement with Loop, I was under the notion that she was simply saying that Satanism is not a balanced nutritious religion. I did not get the impression she was condoning any anti-Satanistic behaviour.

              I hope this clarifies things and gets the thread back on track.
              EEEEK! NO NO, I was not referring to either your post, nor Loop's when I made the above statements! I was talking about the reasoning behind my Original post in this thread, which was in fact, a reaction to having seen nasty comments (disrespectfull and innacurate) about Satanists in several Pagan boards, and groups lately.....no, no, I thought that your statement was very logical and respectful and clear, as was Loops! HOLY MISCOMMUNICATION BATMAN! And by the way, since the entire thread is about the topic of agreeing/disagreeing, in a respectful manner, I don't think your post was at all "off track!"
              DK


              Dont' say things never change! Everything changes....some people just choose not to see the difference.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Loopaleigh
                Should we require everyone to post a disclaimer and credentials along with their opinion?
                Wouldn't it be better to just say "I don't agree with you, and here's why"....minus the personnal attack?
                So very true. I sometimes forget to post a disclaimer with my opinions (and I'm talking about anything for discussion here on MW), and once I got a seemingly personal attack coming from *someone.

                The trouble with opinions, is that they almost ALWAYS change over time, especially when it's 5:00 a.m in the morning, and you haven't slept for the last 24 hours. I find that most MW'ers do recognize people's opinions, and respond as such, but there are a few who don't, and this is very aggravating.

                If I had to write a disclaimer below every post I make, it would probably go something as follows:

                ---

                "Notice: Anything stated in one of my posts is not necessarily an opinion of mine by 100%. I could be sleepy, I could be un-educated enough in the topic and hand, perhaps tired, hungry, frustrated, sad, or even suffering from a severe migrane from my kitten jumping on top of my head.

                This does not mean to say that my opinions are uninformed, but simply in the endless process of being modified and further developed. To help accomplish this, I would ask that any responses to this 'here post refrain from commiting any personal attacks producing feelings of guilt, shame, or embarassment, because this will undoubtedbly hinder the continued improvement of my stated opinion, which is currently nothing more than a W.I.P. Thank you."
                Last edited by Aquarian_Moon; December 31st, 2004, 12:41 PM.
                I feel like a again. IDK why. :boing: :boing: :boing:

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aquarian_Moon
                  So very true. I sometimes forget to post a disclaimer with my opinions (and I'm talking about anything for discussion here on MW), and once I got a seemingly personal attack coming from *someone.

                  The trouble with opinions, is that they almost ALWAYS change over time, especially when it's 5:00 a.m in the morning, and you haven't slept for the last 24 hours. I find that most MW'ers do recognize people's opinions, and respond as such, but there are a few who don't, and this is very aggravating.

                  If I had to write a disclaimer below every post I make, it would probably go something as follows:

                  ---

                  "Notice: Anything stated in one of my posts is not necessarily an opinion of mine by 100%. I could be sleepy, I could be un-educated enough in the topic and hand, perhaps tired, hungry, frustrated, sad, or even suffering from a severe migrane from my kitten jumping on top of my head.

                  This does not mean to say that my opinions are uninformed, but simply in the endless process of being modified and further developed. To help accomplish this, I would ask that any responses to this 'here post refrain from commiting any personal attacks producing feelings of guilt, shame, or embarassment, because this will undoubtedbly hinder the continued improvement of my stated opinion, which is currently nothing more than a W.I.P. Thank you."
                  I agree with both of you and do not feel that opinions should be dissected or used to attack people; nor do I think that a disclaimer is necessary, but yours is excellent by the way :vanish:

                  However, there is a big difference to me between: "I think that the worship of "self" prevelant in most Satanist paths is innapropriate and therefore, I do not agree with their views" AND "Satanists are evil; they worship evil and they only follow their religion for shock value" as far as opinions go....don't you? I guess I see one as an obvious statement of opinion and a personal view, and the other at a declaration (and very disrespectul) and therefore, subject to dissection and the request by a respondent for the person to support such claims....make sense?
                  DK


                  Dont' say things never change! Everything changes....some people just choose not to see the difference.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yes, I don't see the second one as an opinion at all. It's more like a *cough up - something stated over and over again by many different people, with no facts, and no foundations.
                    I feel like a again. IDK why. :boing: :boing: :boing:

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Zophael
                      I have to agree with Loopaleigh. I was a Satanist for quite some time. LaVey was overly reactionary because of his poor experience with Christianity. The Setians (Temple of Set) arose in response to LaVey's emotionally based views. Both groups fail to be deep enough to acknowledge how selflessness can be as rewarding if not more so than constantly satisfying our ids.
                      That's part of why I'm not LaVeyan, and not Setian. I realize that there are times when selflessness is necessary, and even though I grew up in a rather conservative (though not fundamentalist) Christian church, I do not harbor any ill will to Christians, or Christianity as a whole.

                      In my opinion, LaVey laid down the basic idea of Satanism. It's up to the individual Satanist to take that idea and mold it to fit themselves.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KEishin
                        Well think about it - so many people new to Paganism come from religions that preach "the one true way" (snort, chuckle, laugh, whatever). It's hard to overcome that conditioning. I'm *not* making excuses for that type of behavior - discrimination is discrimination.

                        In addition, Satanism is so misunderstood my many of us, that we only have what the media reports about it. When was the last time the media in your area got Witchcraft/Wicca right?
                        This is entirely true. And it also sometimes seem that Pagans are even afraid of Satanists!


                        Ankh Udja Seneb
                        Please feel free to visit my items on ebay for a variety of clothing, decorative items, etc. Visit here for my listing of books.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'm going to be the voice of dissent here.

                          In all honesty, and based upon my own personal experience, I do not believe for one minute that Right Hand Path magicians/witches/pagans are any less prone to "negative ways," selfish behavior or practicing an unbalanced system. I have met many folks who get all excited about "healing the world" and "teaching newbies" while their own lives are a complete mess. I've had the same gripe with the Ceremonial Magick community; I have met far too many people who 'claim' to talk with deities, do magick to spread world peace, etc....but many of them can't muster up the magick to pay their bills consistently, lead productive lives, have healthy relationships - I find it hard to believe that such people are as magickally important as they wish themselves to be.

                          Perhaps it's the cynic in me, but I think a lot of folks try to 'escape' into seemingly altruistic endeavors (or pretend to be "selfless") for very selfish reasons; karmic 'brownie points,' a sense of importance because they feel disempowered in their mundane lives, trying to avoid "real life" concerns, etc. In fact, many RHP activities could be considered very self-centered - having little or no beneficial effect upon local communities or the world at large while primarily having very subjective benefits upon the individual adherent. I'm not saying this is a "bad" thing, I think that "selfishness" can (and does) serve people well, I just think it's important to be honest about it. As in all things, "balance" is the key.

                          However, just because some angsty teenager or maladjusted adult picks up The Satanic Bible, starts calling himself/herself a "Satanist/Setian/etc." and claims to wish nothing but woe upon the rest of the world - it doesn't necessarily mean he/she really knows what they are talking about or what the LHP is. It means that they are a poseur - not very different from people who read one book on Wicca and claim to be a High Priest(ess). Many Setians and Satanists I know actually do utilize RHP philosophies, they do care about the world around them and they practice within an extremely balanced system. A "system," one could argue, that is far more "balanced" than the "heal the earth, an' it harm none, we all come from the Goddess" Pagans out there.

                          Alkhemia
                          My Blog

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            i have no real path my beliefs are my own ive made my mind up about how i see everything and that also changes from time to time. now as for people slamming other religions i believe its out of fear and stupididty like most predjudice it stems from a lack of understanding, these people dont udnerstand so they throw mud at something they think may undermine what they believe in which isnt cool but its how humans are. until others understand that everyones beliefs are going to be different there will be no peace between people with different beliefs. just my point of view here not stating any of this as a concrete fact because i dont really understand why people are like this but just know that this is the way it is.
                            The Earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep


                            ...And Fed Of Angels Tears, we Danced Under Deaths Keen Eye

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Darakash- I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say in my post about "the individual who doesn't hold with majority opinion" as "acceptable target". I generaly don't jump into threads like that and rant, but the title of this one got me thinking about how sometimes people who don't think like everybody else becomes an acceptable target for other people to take their frustrations and inner anger out on. I was really just using Satanism as an example, but it can be applyed to just about anyone and any place.

                              I have been guilty of this behavior myself and it wasn't until one time the "target" pulled me aside and informed me that this was really, really hurting her emotionaly that I got to thinking about why was I even picking on her in the first place? Oh, cause everybody else was. That's kind lame. I started looking at the "reasons" why I was picking on her and came up with "she was short" and "she walked funny", but the real reason is everybody else was doing it and it seemed funny at the time, but no one was really thinking about whether or not it might be hurting her. I realized I was a "bully" and I didn't like it. I also realized other people were making my emotional decissions for me, and I didn't like that either. Anyway, personal story.


                              And I in NO WAY was implying that YOU do this! That's why I added the P.S. at the end so you wouldn't feel it was directed at you! 'Cause it wasn't! I was just throwing it out there in general.


                              Originally posted by Darakash
                              I am a person that thinks that by using the name Satanist, these groups have created more problems for themselves than using the name may be worth, but hey, know what? That realy IS an opinion!
                              I agree, LaVey could have called it LaVeyinism or something and reaced alot more people. It's not the entire message or philosopy of Satanism that is the problem, it's the knee jerk reaction to the name. Like I said before, some of it makes sense to me and is quite applicable to daily life, some of it I find too self centered and not balanced enough, but alot of people won't even check it out at all 'cause they can't get past the connotations of the name. I avoided learning about it for a long time because when I was young alot of people were calling themselves Satanist for shock value and knew absolutly NOTHING about it's worldview. It was the 80's and Heavy Metal was popular. :kooky:


                              Originally posted by Aquarian Moon
                              "Notice: Anything stated in one of my posts is not necessarily an opinion of mine by 100%. I could be sleepy, I could be un-educated enough in the topic and hand, perhaps tired, hungry, frustrated, sad, or even suffering from a severe migrane from my kitten jumping on top of my head.

                              This does not mean to say that my opinions are uninformed, but simply in the endless process of being modified and further developed. To help accomplish this, I would ask that any responses to this 'here post refrain from commiting any personal attacks producing feelings of guilt, shame, or embarassment, because this will undoubtedbly hinder the continued improvement of my stated opinion, which is currently nothing more than a W.I.P. Thank you."
                              This is awesome! he he he. Kitty.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hmm ...Im surprised that middle aged white guys aren't blamed for discriminating against satanists. That way, you can slam one with the other.
                                Resident Curmugeon

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X