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  • Wicca, influenced by........

    I noticed, now that I have studied wicca for a while, that wicca isn't just a celtic based/influenced religion. Even Gardnerian Wicca, it is influenced by much much more.

    As it was pointed out, Ishtar's descent to the netherworld to follow Dumuzi, influenced wiccan beliefs and the Sabbats such as Samhain, even if they happen at different times of the year.

    Though often overlooked, there is a really big central theme borrowed from ancient assyrian paganism in wicca. The Lord/Horned God and the Lady/Horned goddess, and all the gods being aspects of the god and the goddesses being aspects/parts of the Lady. Assyrian duopantheism (all gods being part of 2) is central to many paths still.

    Karma, though obvious, comes from hindu theology.

    There are others, feel free to post them.
    ......with liberty and justice for all;
    For all means for all without exceptions!

    What is more valuable than liberty? Nothing, not even my own life. As without liberty, is life really worth living?

    "those who would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, deserve neither, and will lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

    "Don't Tread on Me" - Forgot

  • #2
    It's true that Gardner had widespread and varied influences on his own philosophy and interests. But I don't think karma was one of his interests or part of the original tradition. That came later and isn't really considered a part of Wiccan beliefs and practices.
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    If you make a customer happy, he'll tell 3 other people.
    If he's not happy, he'll tell 20 others.



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    • #3
      Originally posted by Lunacie View Post
      It's true that Gardner had widespread and varied influences on his own philosophy and interests. But I don't think karma was one of his interests or part of the original tradition. That came later and isn't really considered a part of Wiccan beliefs and practices.
      O ok. I didn't know that karma wasnt originally a part of it.
      ......with liberty and justice for all;
      For all means for all without exceptions!

      What is more valuable than liberty? Nothing, not even my own life. As without liberty, is life really worth living?

      "those who would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, deserve neither, and will lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

      "Don't Tread on Me" - Forgot

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      • #4
        Ok I am curious here and I'm really not trying to be an arse either.

        Your opening statement is that you've been studying Wicca for a bit now. Yet In the follow up you claim you didn't know Karma was not part of the original idea. It makes me ask what have you been studying all this time? Or perhaps more appropriately who have you been studying?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
          Ok I am curious here and I'm really not trying to be an arse either.

          Your opening statement is that you've been studying Wicca for a bit now. Yet In the follow up you claim you didn't know Karma was not part of the original idea. It makes me ask what have you been studying all this time? Or perhaps more appropriately who have you been studying?
          It took me years of study and discussion with other Wiccans to learn just what was historically correct and what had been added in. It's possible some of the add-ins have come to be considered part of Wicca now, at least part of the newer traditions but not of the Gardnerian or Alexandrian trads. I'm still learning and I've been following the Wiccan path for almost 20 years.

          Yeah, I know, you were asking Ninurta, but I thought I'd share that we keep learning - and learning - and learning. We don't have to know it ALL before we can use the label of Wicca for ourselves.
          ____________
          If you make a customer happy, he'll tell 3 other people.
          If he's not happy, he'll tell 20 others.



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          • #6
            Actually I do understand that and agree. I was just curious to see where he / she (?) was coming from. While I'm not Wiccan that was one thing I knew right off so it surprises me in that facet.

            Where it something deeper I could see and understand.

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            • #7
              I wonder how Karma found its way into Wicca...?
              sigpic
              "Ihr seht nach oben, wenn ihr nach Erhebung verlangt. Und ich sehe hinab, weil ich erhoben bin." ~Friedrich Nietzsche

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Torey View Post
                I wonder how Karma found its way into Wicca...?
                If by karma we mean 'the three-fold law', then my best guess is that it's an extension of the scourging that originally occurs in the 1949 version of the second degree initiation. I've heard the words of the magus quoted out of context so often that I figure most people think that's the way they're meant to be.

                If we're talking about some other concept, could someone enlighten me, please?

                blessings
                ffetcher

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
                  Ok I am curious here and I'm really not trying to be an arse either.

                  Your opening statement is that you've been studying Wicca for a bit now. Yet In the follow up you claim you didn't know Karma was not part of the original idea. It makes me ask what have you been studying all this time? Or perhaps more appropriately who have you been studying?
                  Wicca
                  Beliefs and practices
                  by Gary Cantrell

                  Why?
                  ......with liberty and justice for all;
                  For all means for all without exceptions!

                  What is more valuable than liberty? Nothing, not even my own life. As without liberty, is life really worth living?

                  "those who would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, deserve neither, and will lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

                  "Don't Tread on Me" - Forgot

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Torey View Post
                    I wonder how Karma found its way into Wicca...?
                    I don't really know that karma has actually made it into Wicca much of the time. If people call the Three-Fold Law or the Rede (or part of it) or the Law of Return or whatever "karma," I wouldn't agree with that labeling. Karma is pretty much Eastern in origin, and it is a concept that spans many lifetimes. It isn't the perfect equivalent of actions/consequences, the Law of Return, &c. But, of course, many people will still use it interchangeably, even once they learn the difference(s). Oh, well.

                    If the OP -- or anyone else, really -- reads Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler, there's a very substantial look into the history of witchcraft and paths (at least, as accurately as such history can run, since some people may have lied or made up crap or sensationalized things). Wicca, in its old days, seems to have been influenced by various ideas from people like Murray, and Leland (who wrote Aradia). Robert Graves' The White Goddess historically has had influence as well.
                    02-07-1943
                    05-19-2009
                    Papi - R.I.P.
                    I love you. Always.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ninurta2008 View Post
                      I noticed, now that I have studied wicca for a while, that wicca isn't just a celtic based/influenced religion. Even Gardnerian Wicca, it is influenced by much much more.
                      Oh my, yes. Really, the "Celtic" influences came second to the general Occult/Esoterica influences. Wicca's basics are largely borrowed by Hermetic societies like Rosicrucianism, Thelema, and the Golden Dawn. He also took in huge influences from British folklore; I mean, the whole Wiccan mythological cycle is based on agriculture in the British Isles and the Wheel of the Year is taken (mostly) from British cultural holidays; most of which happened to be of Celtic origin. He even claimed that the gods worshipped by his group were the indigenous gods of the British Isles, though the veracity this is debatable (to say the least); these claims came from folklorist circles that supported the (now debunked) theories of Margaret Murray and Robert Graves.

                      Karma, though obvious, comes from hindu theology.
                      Well, as said, the Law of Return only tangentially resembles karma. However, keep in mind that Gardner came from the period of the 1930's and 40's, when Eastern concepts were poorly understood and rarely used in their proper contexts. Gardner himself, who had an interest in Eastern Mysticism, may have had a hand in equating the Law of Return to what was understood about karma even though, in retrospect, it was poor use of the word.
                      Last edited by Louisvillian; October 8th, 2009, 06:31 AM.

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                      • #12
                        As others have pointed out, very little of what Wicca is made up from comes from "Celtic" sources. The horned-god Cernunnos, worshipped in ancient Gaul at the time of the Druids and the Roman occupation of most of Europe, found its way into Wicca through the writings of Margaret Murray. The four Celtic seasonal festivals of Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnasadh and Samhain were the earliest ones celebrated in Wicca, but the Anglo-Saxon festivals of Eostre, Litha, Mabon and Yule were added to form the "eight-spoked wheel of the year."

                        Many of the initiation rites found in Wicca can be traced back to Free Masonry, which was highly influential in the Rosicrucian and Golden Dawn lodges that emerged somewhat later, and these too had their influence on Wicca.

                        Ceremonial Magic, of the type found in the Medieval grimoire known as "The Key of Solomon" with it's nine-foot diameter magic circles, it's black and white hilted knives (called "Arthame" and "Bollino" in one European translation), and its elaborate conjurations, invocations and consecration rituals all found their way into Wicca.

                        Passages from Aleister Crowley, Charles Godfrey Leland, and even Rudyard Kipling were drawn upon in compiling the Wiccan Liturgy. Even the name "Wicca" itself was borrowed from obsolete Anglo-Saxon (Old English) as a name for the body of practitioners who make up the belief system.

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                        • #13
                          Three degree structure and 'So mote it be' come from freemasonry of course I've read Masonic books that claim they got the phrase from Druids... haven't seen anybody find it in Druidism though.
                          Masonry also has a thing with the sun, moon and star (star would be the Dryghten here)
                          The God, Goddess and Dryghten mirror Hadit, Nuit and Ra-Koor-Huit from Thelema.
                          Of course the Dryghten comes from more traditional forms of witchery and was used in old English versions of the Bible to refer to God.
                          It also has this connection to royal blood, as ruling in the name of the gods and also has been associated to witchblood.
                          The tools are right out of the Key of Solomon.
                          The circle casting comes out of the Grimoire tradition but was especially refined by the Golden Dawn.
                          Aradia and the Watchers come out of Strega, the watchers actually coming out of the Judeo-Christian book of Enoch.
                          The Watchtowers are straight out of John Dee's work and intered Wiccca through the Golden Dawn.
                          The liturgy for Great Rite (actual) is from the ninth 9th (I think it was the ninth) degree of the O.T.O at the time... "you know let them not talk of thee at all for thee art nun".
                          The Pe[y]ton is Catholic
                          The Rede is Valiente's rewording of Crowley's philosophy
                          if you are counting the elemental Kings some people call, as well as the elements those are from certain grimoires and you can search for the thread where I explain that.
                          The word Sabbat is Jewish
                          The Sabbats themselves come from mulipe Northern European sources... except Mabon was was some dude?
                          The word Karma was stolen from the Hindus and abused. The Wiccan concept though comes from a) casting the circle/round thrice about and thus the WoY, and that anything done in one of the three realms affects the other to. You see that in many places but Zues, Hades and Poseidon is a good example of this theme of three domains.
                          The Pentagram entered mystery traditions primarily though Pythagoras
                          The death of the god at Samhain and his traveling into the underworld is likely inspired by the Hellenistic Mysteries.
                          Cernunnos is celtic? - i forget at the moment specificaly which actual region he is from. i was always surprised he didn't choose the Bucca.
                          The four elements come from Empedocles.
                          Duotheism isn't new but was often implied amongst hard-polytheism. Meaning you had all these seperate gods and there were a couple who represents godness or goddesness, representing that aspect as a natural thing.
                          Also, the commonfolk in many pagan cultures were inclined to be hard polytheists, priests who dedicated their lives to gods, and philosophers generally had a more complex theology.
                          Wiccans initially did not consider themselves Pagans because the term was associated with common-folk and they saw themselves as part of a priesthood.
                          Wicca is also a Henotheism meaning that certain gods are dominant at different times, with the god ruling the dark half of the year and the goddess the light half. Also with the Holy and Oak kings if you incorporate that and you have the maiden, mother and crone dynamic ruling over the phases of life. That was lifted from and has influenced how people view Hekate.
                          Theres also the 'White Goddess" as a source Gardner pulled from.

                          I've been told by older Gardnerians that the concept of the Prime Mover was very important in the understanding of the Dryghten when they were taught.

                          Surprisingly you never see the worldtree associated with Wicca though the Farrars showed use of it in "What Witches Do" and Alexandrians are known for using extra material.
                          I've heard the joke from followers of Cochrane that "Wiccans can't jump" because they have no vertical axis. This is surprising as popular as Hekate is.

                          I don't really know that karma has actually made it into Wicca much of the time.
                          The answer is in Garner's very interesting life. He traveled earlier in his life before ever being involved in Wicca, observed/studied indigenous cultures and i believe if memory serves he spent some time in the East. Even if i am mistaken he had an interest in anthropology and comparative religion. Again however when it started being called Karma instead of the Threefold law/law of Three?- probably when hippies caused Wicca to explode in the 60's
                          Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
                          (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
                          anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

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