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  • Wicca 'n' Feminism

    Topic about Polarity 'n' Feminism
    A thought that came up when I was first introduced to Wicca, one of the first problems I had with understanding Wicca from a sociopolitical viewpoint.
    A thought that I dropped and left after some time.
    I tried to grasp if Wicca is not just about accepting ones feminine nature and animus, (the part that helped me most) but also a path that confirms that there is something like a feminine and masculine principle/nature.

    I have met feminist both male and female at collage who gets repulsed about the way of Wicca which actually works with a dualistic philosophy, we separate things into two or four etc. We do rituals which deals with loving our womb and repeating for ourself that we are woman. elemental- and altar models are based on polarity with one axis or two, so we get charts based on four corners or two sides.
    'like if we still haven't let go of the roles that society brainwashes us with' may be a reaction from some feminists, those who want to level abstractions to the ground but who act like men anyway, in fact it looks like society with both genders are advancing to the "man" model, like if they have it better, "cause woman are oppressed" -mantra!.
    Woman have fought for their freedom to wear jeans and suits, and to act like men, work man jobs. And finally woman can. One side is forgotten tho, its still absurd that a man would wear high heals and skirt.
    Lady gaga is working on that btw.
    And ofc there are those few feminists that actually behave like traditional woman's, true house wives, who's stitching and still wears skirts and the whole package. But still fights for the woman cause.
    And I thought if Wiccans mostly belong to this "side" of feminists?
    Those who dont think its wrong to still be a traditional woman, but isn't conservative either.
    We work much with polarity, and this enable us to actually have our moments of oneness, gnosis or mystic, those times when we feel complete. And I wonder if there is any truth in this statement, that breaking the one and only god/reality "Allah" down into components and then assemble them, by calling the quarters, the God and Goddess.
    If it is this that makes the spark? The circle becomes the centrum for all forces to meet and tumble in, forces which we haven't let play with each other for a time.
    Whatever if it is psychological or something more
    Last edited by SacredNight; June 14th, 2010, 09:56 AM.
    This will be a good signature one day

  • #2
    I agree that Wicca is based on polarity and duality. The entire system is based on balance between the god and goddess, between the wild and the civilized, between nature and agriculture. Along with this comes a traditional feminist attitude of male and female equality.

    The problem is, in the 1970's, neo-feminism (aka "PENIS BAD feminism") came in and managed to gets its hands into neopaganism. This has since tarred the public image of Wicca and neopaganism in general.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SacredNight View Post
      Topic about Polarity 'n' Feminism
      A thought that came up when I was first introduced to Wicca, one of the first problems I had with understanding Wicca from a sociopolitical viewpoint.
      A thought that I dropped and left after some time.
      I tried to grasp if Wicca is not just about accepting ones feminine nature and animus, (the part that helped me most) but also a path that confirms that there is something like a feminine and masculine principle/nature.

      I have met feminist both male and female at collage who gets repulsed about the way of Wicca which actually works with a dualistic philosophy, we separate things into two or four etc. We do rituals which deals with loving our womb and repeating for ourself that we are woman. elemental- and altar models are based on polarity with one axis or two, so we get charts based on four corners or two sides.
      'like if we still haven't let go of the roles that society brainwashes us with' may be a reaction from some feminists, those who want to level abstractions to the ground but who act like men anyway, in fact it looks like society with both genders are advancing to the "man" model, like if they have it better, "cause woman are oppressed" -mantra!.
      Woman have fought for their freedom to wear jeans and suits, and to act like men, work man jobs. And finally woman can. One side is forgotten tho, its still absurd that a man would wear high heals and skirt.
      Lady gaga is working on that btw.
      And ofc there are those few feminists that actually behave like traditional woman's, true house wives, who's stitching and still wears skirts and the whole package. But still fights for the woman cause.
      And I thought if Wiccans mostly belong to this "side" of feminists?
      Those who dont think its wrong to still be a traditional woman, but isn't conservative either.
      We work much with polarity, and this enable us to actually have our moments of oneness, gnosis or mystic, those times when we feel complete. And I wonder if there is any truth in this statement, that breaking the one and only god/reality "Allah" down into components and then assemble them, by calling the quarters, the God and Goddess.
      If it is this that makes the spark? The circle becomes the centrum for all forces to meet and tumble in, forces which we haven't let play with each other for a time.
      Whatever if it is psychological or something more
      This post is so much win.

      Firstly let me say that my time working within a Wiccan setting, as I met those 'of like mind', happened because we had enough similarities and a deep respect for many of the same things. One thing in particular i likes was the dual observance of divinity though gender. cherokee medicine is very similiar with a focus on Selu and Kana'ti and the rest of the thunder family. There are the four men or the four women at the directions depending on the formula and I've seen seen formula were both are in the same round in some combination. We go a bit further though, because a man works with the women in treating physical illness and vice versa and we are taught that for a man to truly become a good man in the way of kana'ti he is to seek understanding of what it is to be a women. the opposite is also true. We have switch dances were roles are reversed.

      Moving on from that point, what you have said here is why am not a feminist.
      It is also why I can not in good conscious recommend authors like Starhawk when they say Wicca while pushing radical feminism.
      There is a need for womens circles and it is only natural for a pendulum to swing to the other extreme after leaving the opposite extreme.
      When however you you downplay or outright remove the god it is not Wicca and i stand by that statement adamantly.
      you can't have only one and have Wicca, the rituals, liturgy all of it revolve around the dynamic of the two throughout the year.

      Gender roles exist, and they exist because there are differences between the sexes. We have different strengths, and yes this point is often abused as an excuse to be an asshat.
      To be fair traditional Wicca really does not have a place for people outside the gender binary and this is a shame because they have a very prominent place in traditional witchcraft.
      There really needs to be material in Trad Wicca for this instance but it is tricky because you don't want to unravel the core teachings and whatever does happen to address this issue, covens will be divded on it and may not consider eachother Wiccan. in Trad circles nobody really wants to touch the issue. So I can see some arguments there. you have to consider what is best for the group as a whole as well. Just because a guy does a great job invoking the Goddess doesn't mean everybody is able to see that in him and while that is their problem the group dynamic either works or it doesn't. you are going to make sacrifices to get the right atmosphere conjured up and the more incompatable you are with the group the more sacrifices you are going to end up making so things work.

      and honestly it isn't usually bigotry it is orthopraxy at work. one might not care what your sex or orientation is... but they are a stickler for doing the ritual right and it calls for "this" and they stick to that formula.
      I get that, i understand that very well.

      Feminism has largely failed. Yes it has led more rights and better pay (sometimes) but has it really led to better representation. For a women to be respected at the office she has to dress like a man. Feminism has helped women by expecting them to act like men... that isnt respect that is going noticed. It is such assimilating into that patriarchy they point out. If a women wants to dress like a man that's her business but she shouldn't have to in order to get respect. She should be able to ear a dress to the office and be taken seriously. If you wear a nice dress when you are a mechanic you wouldn't be taken seriously but that has nothing to do with sex right?

      Feminism has made gender roles a bad thing instead of respecting the roles of gender within society. I mean think of the term "Women's work" being used as demeaning. A lot of professions that are usually held by women aren't respected. That needs to change. housework isn't respect, that really needs to change.

      Native [American] tribes, we had gender roles for sure but those roles were respected. Taking care of the home was "women's work" but so was telling who was getting the boot from the home and while we didn't 'private property' of hose plots like we have today, it would have been women who were head of household on the lease.

      As for wiccans who don't fester over gender roles yet still fight for civl rights... I know traditionalists who are that way and who do see wisdom in how those roles get us through the wheel of the year.
      As for eclectic Wicca i think it is a different story all together. I think current and upcoming generations are much more heavily influence by the bad aspects of current feminism.
      There's a great sense of entitlement there with people these days and feminism does contribute to that, especially for women.
      It isn't just entitlement either, it is entitlement in the sense of expected to be handed everything because what is the point of working for it.... right one couldn't... i don't know, possibly learn something.
      To be fair work isn't rewarded like it used to be and sadly it is more rewarding to say screw it and get yours.
      I do think feminism contributes to 'disposable relationships' especially.

      This is bad for covened Wicca, because if it isnt good between the HP and HPs it isn't good for anyone.

      they are supposed to equal. admittedly the God gets the shorter straw dying each year and all while the Goddess never dies... but she is right there with him when it happens and he does it for her. She doesn't forget that either. but how can you be faithful to someone when your wordview is that they are the fault of all your problems.

      Feminists don't usually have a healthy relationship with the masculine archetype and thats understandable, but I never seen feminists holding eachother accountable (though they usually attack eachother because they arent working through their issues) nor do I see this healing as part of the feminist movement. As with anything they have to work on themselves first before they can change anything in the world for the better. If one doesn't start with themselves they just cause more imbalance and perpetuate the same patterns. They do to men what they accuse men of doing to them.

      I can't associate with that behavior, so I don't identity as a feminist. Also if you ask a feminist what feminism is you never get a clear answer. They should at least be able to tell my about different branches or teachings within feminism. So what does it really mean? It isn't my fight either, not to lead... so if i'm to be a feminist it would be following a women I find honorable enough to follow and I see nowone like that in feminism.

      I don't need feminism to respect women either and I've seen people say that if you arent a feminist you are misogynist. That is utter bullshit, and even more so because you are bullying people on how to identity. Well I cant be a feminist because it is at odds with my culture and it is at odds with my culture because it is at odds with my health. It is too divisive. It promotes a strife that i do not want to internalize. It causes one to war against their anima or animus and that never ends well.
      Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
      (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
      anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

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