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If we're not religious..are we Atheist?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sundragon View Post
    Didn't say it wasn't.

    What I am saying is that atheism presupposes a universe without objective purpose or objective meaning besides perhaps the "The meaning and purpose of existance is existance" "or the meaning and purpose of existance is continuation of our DNA" arguments offered up by Infinite Grey.

    Infinite Grey conflates the reality of objective existance with the potentiality of objective purpose and objective meaning. As I stated in my prior post I do not see these this as the same thing.
    An atheist does not believe in god.

    Your giving more meaning to the term than it warrants. It simply means no belief in god.

    Many religious people are atheist, the term religious and atheist can go hand in hand.

    Seriously, do I really need to explain such a simple concept. You said "atheism presupposes a universe without objective purpose or objective meaning besides perhaps the "The meaning and purpose of existance is existance" "or the meaning and purpose of existance is continuation of our DNA" arguments offered up by Infinite Grey."

    No dude, an atheist just means *no belief in god* -- nothing more. It doesn't mean someone has "no objective purpose" it simply means, they *do not believe in god*.

    What you are attempting to argue is that not believing in god means someone has no purpose, not what the definition of what the term atheist means, which is simply, not believing in god.

    I quoted Steven Hawking on my blog and simply answered what I saw as problems with his insinuation that religion is no longer necessary. Sorry that saddened you, but Steven was speaking outside his specialty and is likely to be as incorrect as anyone else in doing so.
    In other words, what your arguing is what you think of atheism, against other atheists, perhaps you should take your own advice as "speaking outside of someone's speciality", because quite frankly, you don't even understand the simple term that an atheist just means *no belief in god* -- that's all it means. Not all of this no meaning, no purpose, etc.. etc..

    For the record I think Stephen Hawking went a bit to far. He also didn't say that religion wasn't necessary, but theology isn't necessary to explain the universe.

    Of course my beliefs that there is such a thing as Deity, Truth, the afterlife, are subjective beliefs. It is an experiencial knowing that cannot be proven. My claim was that atheism offers no sense of objective purpose or meaning not that my beliefs aren't in and of themselves subjective.
    This demonstrates my point, it's how the human mind works. We want some type of "objective meaning" -- we are always searching for what is the *absolute meaning to our own lives*. This is why there are so many different religions, because we have all come to all of our own little conclusions of what you have defined as "objective truth". It helps us to say, I figured it all out! That's what we really want, we figured out all of this stuff and from our primitive minds, label *it* god. Though the more inquisitive take it a step further and say well if we *need* god, where did god come from? After all we *need* some type of super being that created all this stuff, well... what about god, did it also need some type of superpower to create it? That's all the god answer does, is just loop around to the same question of our curious minds.

    At its core, this debate was about dueling subjectively held assertions regarding the nature of reality.

    It is my subjectively held belief that life has an objective meaning and purpose and that this purpose is to be found in one's spirituality. It is my subjectively held belief that the existential reality of our life's meaning and purpose is rooted in the purpose of the soul and its relation to the Absolute.
    This makes no sense, so in other words from your life, you claim to have some type of "absolute knowledge" of god, or even were all this stuff came from?

    Your "objective meaning" is based on your own need for a fullfillment on your own need for meaning. I view it more as how the human mind works, not any type of deity.

    I am not saying that my individual beliefs aren't subjective, only that theism, as a point of view, offers more in regards to objective (externally sourced and validated) meaning and purpose of life than does atheism.
    This is ridiculous. One man that says he talks to god and knows what god wants is called crazy, a million men that follow that and say they talk to god and knows what it wants is called religion. Interesting though, that you say your belief is certiantly subjective yet if you view it as objective it gives you a purpose. In other words, if you brainwash yourself to truly believe something is true, that makes it more fulfilling.

    What you are really saying here is the believing in a god gives you a purpose, it give's you a meaning, it's the glue that holds your life together, and it may even give you an afterlife.

    What I see is the human condition to *want* this to be true. So how is it that so many other religions are wrong, but yours is true? Or is it that we all have the same *want* and it's born in our brains?

    Sorry if I'm so critical an have so many questions, I just don't claim do know what all of this shit is, like you so arrogantly claim to to know, even without shit for evidence, you just "have some feelings".

    I am no wild eyed believer who doesn't realize that my beliefs are subjective. I am simply working with the proposition that my subjectively held philosophy (theism or more accurately panentheism) is more effective than your subjectively held philosophy in providing those involved with a sense of externally (beyond the ego/personality) validated meaning and purpose to their lives.

    No, I say I believe that I have a objective purpose and that my life has a greater meaning than may be superficially evident to the five senses. I say that anyone who wishes it may also have the same experience of sensing this reality and that life is more fulfilling when one connects with life on that deeper level.

    That's all I'm saying. I a not saying I can prove anything, just that the experience of meaning and purpose is available to all if one looks a bit deeper.

    According to your subjective beliefs of course.

    Despite the differences in religious outlooks, the mystics and masters of diverse traditions come to strikingly similar conclusions regarding the nature of the Absolute. It is those who transcend the dogma of their faith tradtions that see the unity that exists between all things.
    I agree, and cling to what you believe is your meaning and purpose, just like the ones who believe in other gods will say the same thing as you, just like the ones who squeeze the goat testicles and claim they are casting a spell in the name of god, just like the ones who pray everyday to Allah, Zues, Jesus, or whoever, it's all the same.

    Pick your poison, roll with it because it gives you "meaning" -- and I'll just look at it all for what it is. The human minds way of saying "I need a meaning and I am going to label it this, and I've figured it all out before I die, so despite having no evidence other than person experiences, I'm going to roll with it, because I'm afraid of death and no meaning".

    Thanks for your input.
    Last edited by Vampiel; September 30th, 2010, 02:08 AM.
    You will always do what you think, if you think you cannot change because that is always who you were - that is always who you will be. If you think you decide who you are despite what you have done in the past, and can decide who you are today you will. Do not chain yourself to the past or the future, but what you can decide in the present.