Thread: Shredding the Veil between worlds?

Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra

I’d disagree to the point that in most culture’s it pertains to the boundary between the living and the dead or life and death. The notion of separation between plains of existance seldom is a boundary that one has to cross or can cross without considerable difficulty and challenge. Many times having a boundary guardian to prevent such easy crossing such as Cerebus on land or The Hydra via water for instance. One might go so far as to say the Bi-Frost bridge is such a boundary.

Ya, the Bifrost is one difficulty. And the bridge is blazing with fire. Heimdall the Watch-God is another. Kormt, Ormt, and Kerlaugar, the boiling streams, also, impede our progress, and they are boiling hot.

Perhaps you could also say that Syn, the Goddess that protects the Hall and shuts its door against impure beings, is another?

Okay but I don’t take myth too literally. All of it has a symbolic meaning, even factual/historical, and some of it’s been lost. Myth changes over time, written by different people in different eras so the versions are not the same. The notion of the "veil" is symbolised in different cultures and what I was referring to is the awareness of things. Not all people are able to understand it. I’m not sure what you disagreed with about my post.

Originally Posted by Vigdisdotter

The "worlds" aren’t separate. That’s just the prevalent perception of them because most people aren’t ready to handle the full meal deal that is our
reality.

That’s essentially it, its a coping mechanism that allows us to focus on our everyday reality. We are set by default to observe reality a certain way, within a linear and narrow context as to be able to function best regarding those things of chief concern to our biochemistry.
We do not experiences, normally, everything which our psyche is taking in, processing and coming to terms with. we are sandboxed by default, only having to engage our waking sentience. These other realities are accessible through various techniques, such as ritual, which allow us to enter altered states. To enter many of these there are barriers, psychological boundaries and mechanisms which must be averted or overcome. some may not see this as simply psychology, and our modern psychology has really only begun to explore this however it really can not be denied that the psyche is key to accessing these various realms. one only needs to look to meditative practices such as Samadhi, which according to the degree thereof transverses the notion of barriers altogether in the merging of the object and the subject.

Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra

Personaly I think it’s a crack pot idea and position. Firstly it relies upon the idea that the veil only seperates two demensions and a few plains of existance. Yet nearly every spiriutal system defines the world against a tree backdrop of an upper or celestial plain, a lower or chthonic plain and of course the material plain upon which we live. Then one has to consider that each of those plains, celestial, chthonic and material hold multiple plains that make up each not even considering alternate demensions and plains of realility that exist within the concept of time, space and realility. Nor does it truly touch upon the notion of time with regards to it being competely present all at once or linear as mankind recognizes it and see’s it under most conditions.

Event the notion of the veil being thinest at Shamhain is sort of hokey when you consider that is based upon a Northern European backdrop of the cycle of the year and seasons. The time of the dead is different in Asia, Africa and the Middle East than in Northern Europe. That the European influnce has spread globaly and influences things such as The Day of the Dead in hispanic culture doesn’t make it truth that the veil is thinest at that time frame. It only supports the notion and globalization that occured through out the colonial period of European expansion.

One also has to consider which veil is being spoken of? The veil between life and death if far different than that which seperates one plain of existance from another. The cultural definitations of Veil between worlds is also quite different and how it is constructed. Look to many concepts and you find the gods / goddesses live within the plain of mankind yet exist in the sky or beneath the earth while the deamons and such resided on the moon in Chaldean though for example.

Then one can look to the concept of Physcial plain, Etheral plain, Astral plain, celestial plain and chthonic plains of existance. None of that touching upon the notion of all of them existing in both the external world and within the internal world or mindscape of all living creature’s though better defined in humanity as far as we know.

Sorry to me as I stated it’s a pretty crack pot idea based upon a limited notion of just what the veil is and how it works. Though on the surface it has a very strong Wiccanesq perspective of what the veil is that differs greatly from that understood by shamanic practitioners or practices not based upon Wiccan concepts.

Clearly it is going to depend on the map you are using to make sense of it all. A cosmology of two worlds doesn’t necessarily preclude a cosmology of many more worlds. if you cut an orange in half, you can see in each halve how the slices are segmented.
The two world theory is a constant theme, with a third often being the union of the previous two or an orderly stand-end for that union which is beyond worlds. The Qabbalistic world-tree is actually derived from the tetractys, whereby the one becomes the two becomes the three and the four, can these are arranged to form a basic layout of the inter-relations thereof which is the world-tree pattern used in that tradition.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10, completion and
10 = 1 = 0 = 1
and the tree is reflected in each world of the tree and in each Sephira,
10 reflected within the 4, and 10 in each one of the ten (and four in each one of the ten)
and ten within the three and three within the ten and three within the four
and two also in all of these, is reflected.

As for the issue you point out with Samhain, the same issue is present in regards to the blue moon. There were at one point thirteen mo[o]nths in a year, based on the lunar cycle. we have a month with an extra moon now because someone had to screw up the calendar and so now two moons have to share the same month. there’s no natural significance to this. now that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a potent time for people who think it is special, however it is their imposed paradigm, their way of thinking that gives them those results not anything as far as natural occurrence. it is one of the better examples of how our thinking affects our experience. the thinking being that by putting a box/month around both moons you can contain the influence of both and use it for that month. it seems to work for people, but essentially what they are doing is creating a mental barrier to contain the influence, like using a circle to do so.

That said there are a few particular reasons Samhain and bealtaine are considered inbetweens.
For one thing these are cross-quarters, inbetween an equinox and a solstice.
so are the other two cross-quarters. so what gives?
for one, and this isn’t the only reason, the signs.
Scorpio and Taurus,
mystery and bluntness
inner, hidden things and outer-established things
seed, loins, generative power and established product,
fixation on the mutable, non-solid and fixation on the fixed, solid.

Samhain is also the point there where Demeter (or other figure, insert here) travels to the underworld, when the Earth dies…..
from those multiple points it makes perfect sense why at that time the veil is considered the thinnest.
however, equinoxes are great to and I’d argue that eclipses are even better than Samhain but really it also depends on what currents you are working.
Samhain is more in touch with the seasons and earthly rhythm than most astrological inbetweens, and sense it itself as an astrological element to it as mentioned it thins the views between multiple levels and is considered beneficial all round.
I would never go so far as to insist though that one cultures in-between was better than anothers just because it was from said culture, and that if you thing the veil is thinnest at some other time, do tell.
I myself would suggest the new/dark moon closest to, just after the Autumn equinox. that’s lunar current as opposed to solar, nearer the equinox, new year in many Native American tribes, and close enough to still work in the Earth dying.

Yes- obviously this is going to be a broad and limited discussion without delving into a given cosmological model.
it may be good for a rough exploration of the conception though, exploring boundaries and inbetweens in general, which usually gets last in talks of crossing the abyss or what have you…

Originally Posted by Avanti

I never understood the concept of the "veil". I don’t believe it is literally a veil acting as a magical barrier separating different realms and therefore not something you can destroy. I believe different magical or spiritual realms or whatever you want to call it, exist at different frequency levels. So if you can’t perceive fairies and gods and ascended masters, that’s your problem. It’s an individually conditioned problem. It explains why children can see spirits more than adults. If an actual veil existed, you would assume it would block that sight across all humans regardless of age or social conditioning. Individuals are the ones who choose what they want to believe or see, so punch all you like, you’re not gonna make a dent in anything.

Right, so the concept of veil then, in this analogy would be the part of the radio that prevents bleed-over from the different frequencies. You know how sometimes you are looking for a radio station and you find one playing a song you like but darn it, you hear the nest channel at the same time? that’s a veil not working when you want it to. now, you can traverse a veil, get to that next station as it were but there’s a threshold which is the veil that must be crossed. Radio frequencies, are vibrations and these vibrations are an energy profile/signature.
you need so much power to reach so many hertz, and also a lower wavelength expends its energy quicker than a higher wavelength travels farther for the same fuel, however a shorter wave-length has a tighter energy envelope, is capable of more operations a second and able to reach higher frequencies. to be clear, shorter wavelength = higher frequency, higher wavelength = lower frequency because of how compacted the waves are in the former vs spread out in the latter.

This is also, a simple linear scale of increasing frequency, it doesn’t deal with compound wave harmonics or anything like that which would be the equivalent of how certain veils are often understood.

I’ve known people who have tried long and hard to break that veil for everyone, which is not ok in my book, as it can lead to severe psychological trauma.
there’s a saying that goes "The difference between a schizophrenic and a magician is that a magician can affirm boundaries when needed to maintain the ability to function"
I’ve known magicians who lost their grip on their ability to do so.

Originally Posted by CO Noche

I kinda like your friend’s idea but at the same time I also think it feels a bit wrong. I don’t believe that the Veil was created by humans but it was a natural border that began from the beginning of the universe. Without the veil not only would spirits, elementals, faeries, etc. be spewing through all the time but also various worlds and planes of existence would be colliding with each other. I don’t think the veil should be destroyed and if someone would attempt to it would take an immense amount of energy, more than a single human soul can raise. This veil has been around for 13.7 billion years so it’s obviously very durable but at the same time thin enough for things to slip through. Your best chance would be to try around the time of Samhain when the veil between worlds is especially thin.

Not intentionally created no, however it does appear to be a core component of perception and awareness itself. it is inherent. Beyond that it gets rather existential, like "if there is no awareness to observe the universe, does it exist?" and "did the universe have any observable order to it before it was observed?’ this plays right into Schrodingers cat. my take on it is that if the universe existed prior to any beings ability to make sense of it, it was a very different place perhaps not unlike the quantum level of reallity in its uncertainty. That probability began to normalize and patterns formed as the first vestiges of life, no matter how primitive began to form. however, the catch to this is what allowed for the pattern formation of the first observer if observation brought stability? Of course one can simply say that the conditions were just right for that emergence because that is among the possibilities and if we have no normalized probability it is hard to say otherwise. However, would something so primitive be able to maintain such an influence during its formative stages? Maybe, it wouldn’t have many other minds competing with it if it were the first, reality could have, and would have been more manipulative then. Point is, we’ll never really see the universe as it was prior to our having observed it, and we know that observation affects quantum probability, the unerlying mechanisms that build our reality. That’s the strange world of quantum physics.

you don’t try to do it, it’s just a by-product of your existence.

without the veil you’d experience everything at once, time and space would break down, there would be no stage as it were for you engage anything, it would be like all the westerns, science-fiction, game-shows, reality shows , cartoons etc were playing on the same channel at the same time, and even this isn’t accurate because it wouldn’t be a "channel" because you wouldn’t be on the outside of the television looking in. that channel would be the bandwidth for everything that ever was, is and will be and that includes you.

Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra

I’d disagree to the point that in most culture’s it pertains to the boundary between the living and the dead or life and death. The notion of separation between plains of existance seldom is a boundary that one has to cross or can cross without considerable difficulty and challenge. Many times having a boundary guardian to prevent such easy crossing such as Cerebus on land or The Hydra via water for instance. One might go so far as to say the Bi-Frost bridge is such a boundary.

There’s a veil between every probable existence, and the attributes of them are going to depend on which one you are referring to. Parallel worlds which are different probabilities of ours or different levels of existing altogether?
The latter are depicted as being much more difficult to traverse. looking at the Qabbalistic tree for example, there’s a veil between each of the sephiroth, and each of the worlds, and if you divide them all amongst the aethyrs you get even more…. however there are two veils in particular, which are talked about because of their difficulty of getting passed. These are usually the only ones labled.

The first is the veil of paroketh which separates this plane along with the subtle forces of higher planes which through crossing have been reconstituted to form it and the other planes which are accessible once cross.
The other planes being see as the seven heavens, seven hells and so forth, all the other planes of inner journeying.

The second veil often talked about is the veil of the abyss, where you start to enter those states of such holiness where all things bleedover and merge into one thing. The union of object and subject, and the transcendence of any one realm, all the heavens and all the hells, and earths and what have you. This veil, is a veil of death beyond mortal death, because to cross it is a formula of self annihilation. The reason being, you destroy both your objective and subjective perspective to give birth to that which is beyond them. Meaning the whole point of crossing this veil is to give your existence as a point exploring the circle, you give that up to exist in a state where the eperiencer and experience are one. there’s no longer a stage for character and story, so the role you have now, that identity can no follow . it is still there a part of of everything, but it is not defined as its own separate existence.that place is like a fire, and that fire gives of light, and light casts a shadow. The fire itself doesn’t cast a shadow, because it is both light formless, giving form. when that light, the awarenes sof the fire reaches out and it casts a shadow, it becomes dual. it is then both light and dark, color/force and form. To cross this particularly veil the light has to embrace the shadow to get back to the core of being like fire. The shadow represents projected form, the adversarial force and those things about you which you do not know. the light is will in motion, guiding purpose and that which is revealed to you. You bring them together and you have the formless form, the dancing flame ever in transition. a symbol of both ther temporal and the atemporal, ever renewing. no matter what form fire takes, no matter how it moves it is always fire, ever changing yet constant. Thus is it the symbol in many religions for gods presence, for example the burning bush. This veil, the veil of the Abyss requires the Hieros gamos to cross.
The union of the two creative forces that mold and determine what is in play and what is not. Often we depict this in the form of gender, however the relationship between life and death as well as the realms of the living and the realm of shades (the dead) is also crucial.

The moving back and forth between the two is depicted in every mystery school in some form. One of the more familiar ones is the story of Persephone and how her journey to and fro is the geartrain of life and expression.
there’s a Cherokee story which is very similar where Selu dies and this creates the seasons, but not only the seasons…. it creates the division between the living and the dead much as the death of Osirus had this consequence.
In the story of Selu, sje was killed by her two sons which represent two opposing forces, opposites, whereas Selu represents a unity and harmony. as her story is of the division of life and death, so is the crossing the veil of the Abyss the union of the vitality of the beast, with the reaper. Ending the cycle of incarnation and all that stuff…

This is a common theme in traditional witchcraft so much so that the Housle, a eucharist rite, doesn’t just focus on the union of genders but also of descendant with dead ancestor, unifying the two that they may be one with the gods.

Also, a psychological perspective does not mean an easy trial, on the contrary. the most devastating trials a hero ends facing are those self-struggle. no matter how bad the odds are they always have to find the calm within the storm before they have a chance at turning the tide. The character triumphs over the trials because of character. Sometimes they lose but still win, because they have proven themselves worthy. it’s a common thing, especially when forces are involved that can give them a fighting chance if they are brave enough to claim it.